My take on the identity of the 2024 Winnipeg Blue Bombers and what needs improvement if they're to become a dynasty and lift the Cup this year. Love to hear your thoughts.
https://bonfiresports.ca/winnipegs-dynastic-endeavour/
Quote from: Zach Schnitzer on November 01, 2024, 04:47:53 PMMy take on the identity of the 2024 Winnipeg Blue Bombers and what needs improvement if they're to become a dynasty and lift the Cup this year. Love to hear your thoughts.
https://bonfiresports.ca/winnipegs-dynastic-endeavour/
Well done. That covers a lot of it. I think you can break the regular season into 3 parts: 1. First 8 games, bit of a learning curve, with some spotty play, and some bad breaks; 2. Second 8 games, steady, gritty play. Championship caliber, but not quite dominating; 3. Last 2 games, performance dropped, but played hard and caught a huge break to grab top spot.
Overall, they are where they deserve to be. They can and need to play much better though to get past this Western Final game. One game at a time from here.
I look at the first part of the season as a bit of a rebuild. We had a lot of new players because of free agency, retirements and injuries.The Bombers seemed to turn things around near mid season and the rebuild was complete. We added a lot of new players this year but now these young players are starting to come into their own.
Ugh, this topic title gives me the creeps. I don't like it.
Very Loaded Question! From my perspective (and I have been a Bomber Fan for longer that I can remember and live and die with each win and loss) I see 2024 as a transition year. It is time to replace some older folks with younger folks and of course pay the penality for what takes place.
I think the organization under Wade Miller has done wonders when compared to previous adminstrations and hopefully things continue in a postive manner.
But bottom line - Better to have a Bomber Game than no Bomber game win or lose! :)
good analysis thanks!
Interesting that the Bombers have the best defence, and only three defence allstars.
great coaching.
I say we're already a dynasty, especially when we make our 5th cup in a row in 1 week. I don't think you have to win them all, just getting there is dynastyesque enough, because "any given Sunday".
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 02, 2024, 05:34:02 PMI say we're already a dynasty, especially when we make our 5th cup in a row in 1 week. I don't think you have to win them all, just getting there is dynastyesque enough, because "any given Sunday".
wins = dynasty
appearances = a great team / organization
i realize it's just a word but we seem to be cheapening accomplishments and lowering the bar for them.
my opinion you need at least three championship wins in a row to be a sports dynasty.
Quote from: The Zipp on November 02, 2024, 05:40:41 PMwins = dynasty
appearances = a great team / organization
i realize it's just a word but we seem to be cheapening accomplishments and lowering the bar for them.
my opinion you need at least three championship wins in a row to be a sports dynasty.
Agree. Wins, especially Grey Cup wins, define a dynasty. We're a very good organization that always fields a very competitive team. We need to win more championships to be deemed a dynasty. I think back to the old Edmonton Eskimos that won 5 in a row, or the Als when AC was in his prime, those were dynasty teams. We're just a good football team trying to win the big one.
Quote from: The Zipp on November 02, 2024, 05:40:41 PMwins = dynasty
appearances = a great team / organization
i realize it's just a word but we seem to be cheapening accomplishments and lowering the bar for them.
my opinion you need at least three championship wins in a row to be a sports dynasty.
It's an amount of wins over a period of time.
We're still in the running for a "dynasty" title, but more appearances won't cut it.
Go to a 5th straight Grey Cup and WIN a 3rd = dynasty.
If they lose a third straight final OR dont even make it this year, then NO dynasty.
Quote from: Jesse on November 03, 2024, 12:16:22 AMIt's an amount of wins over a period of time.
We're still in the running for a "dynasty" title, but more appearances won't cut it.
What if we make it to the GC for 10 years in a row, but lose all the rest. Is that a dynasty? I think it is. We're locking out every other W team every time we get to the cup. Most W teams would be ecstatic just to make it there (see: SSK).
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 03, 2024, 12:38:10 AMWhat if we make it to the GC for 10 years in a row, but lose all the rest. Is that a dynasty? I think it is. We're locking out every other W team every time we get to the cup. Most W teams would be ecstatic just to make it there (see: SSK).
Absolutely not.
Quote from: Jesse on November 03, 2024, 12:38:52 AMAbsolutely not.
20 straight GC appearances with all the rest losses? Dynasty?
100 straight GC appearances?
You ask all the other W teams what they think of us going to 5 or 10 or 20 straight. They may grumble and cry, but it's a dynasty.
Now, change the equation to X straight appearances and we win half... surely that's a dynasty as X gets larger?
For me dynasty is championships. Five straight cups would be incredible and a testament to our organization. But we need the Cup win.
Quote from: Zach Schnitzer on November 03, 2024, 01:39:31 AMFor me dynasty is championships. Five straight cups would be incredible and a testament to our organization. But we need the Cup win.
Winning the Grey Cup has to be the goal for every team. Falling short of that does not equate to success or a dynasty even if a team makes the playoffs for 5 straight years. Success is achieving your goal and any team that doesn't view it from that perspective is letting themselves and their fans down.
Quote from: ModAdmin on November 03, 2024, 02:04:20 AMWinning the Grey Cup has to be the goal for every team. Falling short of that does not equate to success or a dynasty even if a team makes the playoffs for 5 straight years.
As a fan who's been going to many/most GCs for a handful of years now, I'm just thrilled my team is in all those cups. We get our shot, our "any given Sunday" shot at it.
The fact Cody got lucky on 3rd & 3 and TOR got lucky with a FG block do not diminish our success in my eyes.
All the other W teams, which is really the only teams I'm interested in "sticking it to" are excluded and crying. That's enough for me.
When we get to this '24 cup and win... hopefully y'all will come 'round and say we're a dynasty too.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 03, 2024, 02:16:59 AMAs a fan who's been going to many/most GCs for a handful of years now, I'm just thrilled my team is in all those cups. We get our shot, our "any given Sunday" shot at it.
The fact Cody got lucky on 3rd & 3 and TOR got lucky with a FG block do not diminish our success in my eyes.
All the other W teams, which is really the only teams I'm interested in "sticking it to" are excluded and crying. That's enough for me.
When we get to this '24 cup and win... hopefully y'all will come 'round and say we're a dynasty too.
Everyone would. That's the point we're making. Dynasty = wins.
If we lose to Montreal or Toronto, they've had exactly as much success as we've had over the last 5 seasons. Are there then 2 Dynasties operating at the same time? That doesn't even make sense, imo.
Zach would be to much to ask to change the title of this thread?
Quote from: Jesse on November 03, 2024, 01:54:32 PMEveryone would. That's the point we're making. Dynasty = wins.
If we lose to Montreal or Toronto, they've had exactly as much success as we've had over the last 5 seasons. Are there then 2 Dynasties operating at the same time? That doesn't even make sense, imo.
Except MTL and TOR will have each 1 or 2 appearances in those 5 years. We'll have had 5. 2 wins in 2 appearances isn't a dynasty. A dynasty by definition is a thing of lengthy timespans.
Clearly I'm putting a lot more weight on appearances vs wins: especially since to win the West for '19 thru '23 was a crazy good and near-impossible feat because the West was massively dominant for those years. That's why I don't put as much stock in those two fluke East wins when they didn't have to face much resistance in their division.
To the original question I would vote neither, I can't see how anyone could call it a dynasty when the Bombers no longer dominate games nor are they necessarily the best team in the league anymore. They would certainly qualify among the best teams and have the potential to win any game if they play very well.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 04, 2024, 12:40:37 AMTo the original question I would vote neither, I can't see how anyone could call it a dynasty when the Bombers no longer dominate games nor are they necessarily the best team in the league anymore.
Did EDM dominate the entire time they were in their dynasty? Or did they have some off years but still pulled out a cup?
I'm not sure "dominating" is the main factor for a dynasty. To me winning cups is the most important factor, then appearing in cups, then winning the reg season, then "being dominant". Like Milt says, it doesn't really matter how you win those games, as long as you win.
I have called it a mini dynasty for a bit now. This run will go down as one of the best ever for this organization. Patience paid off. We have seen amazing success for many years, the let downs in the Grey Cup are minor setbacks imo.
Great thread and title.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 04, 2024, 12:45:09 AMDid EDM dominate the entire time they were in their dynasty? Or did they have some off years but still pulled out a cup?
I'm not sure "dominating" is the main factor for a dynasty. To me winning cups is the most important factor, then appearing in cups, then winning the reg season, then "being dominant". Like Milt says, it doesn't really matter how you win those games, as long as you win.
There's one factor; Grey Cup win.
If you're arguing for any other factor to be included, it means you're not talking about a dynasty, imo. We're just watering down the word.
Threads like this are why teams don't touch the Divisional Championship Trophy....
Quote from: BlueInCgy on November 04, 2024, 12:17:52 PMThreads like this are why teams don't touch the Divisional Championship Trophy....
Neither has any actual effect on anything, though.
Jinxes are just a fun and silly part of sports.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 04, 2024, 12:45:09 AMDid EDM dominate the entire time they were in their dynasty? Or did they have some off years but still pulled out a cup?
I'm not sure "dominating" is the main factor for a dynasty. To me winning cups is the most important factor, then appearing in cups, then winning the reg season, then "being dominant". Like Milt says, it doesn't really matter how you win those games, as long as you win.
The stretch of success the Bombers have been riding since 2019 looks very much like the Stamps recorded before them, when they won the West title 7 times in 10 years and 3 GC's in 6 visits. I don't recall anyone calling that excellent run a dynasty and would like all Bomber fans to stop referencing that word.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 04, 2024, 03:52:37 PMThe stretch of success the Bombers have been riding since 2019 looks very much like the Stamps recorded before them, when they won the West title 7 times in 10 years and 3 GC's in 6 visits. I don't recall anyone calling that excellent run a dynasty and would like all Bomber fans to stop referencing that word.
Two major differences being:
1. those Stampeders teams never won back-to-back championships, and
2: they never went to four straight championship games.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 04, 2024, 04:03:06 PMTwo major differences being:
1. those Stampeders teams never won back-to-back championships, and
2: they never went to four straight championship games.
I was just going to say that. They were interrupted sometimes in their West Win streak by other better or lucky teams. The 2017 EDM team comes to mind.
It's funny, but that CGY loss to OTT in GC kind of hearkens to our GC losses: that Kanneh shoestring tackle on that SY QB running to the edge to lose the game... it's crazy low-probability stuff like that that cost us our 2 losses. I guess it happens to every "dynasty-esque" team.
Quote from: BlueInCgy on November 04, 2024, 12:17:52 PMThreads like this are why teams don't touch the Divisional Championship Trophy....
Argh, that's my biggest bugbear. Touch the freakin' trophy! Holy smokes. I bet those 2 GC loss years they wished they had touched the trophy! They never got to touch any trophy! How does that feel!
Celebrate winning the West! It's a massive accomplishment.
CGY almost always touched the trophy and they went on to win 3 cups in their strong stretch. And I bet they enjoyed celebrating it at the time!
Yoshi has always been the guardian of the West trophy... he's gone now. Maybe they will touch it this year. If there's no big voice for "not touching" then it'll organically just happen.
Quote from: Jesse on November 04, 2024, 10:28:04 AMIf you're arguing for any other factor to be included, it means you're not talking about a dynasty, imo. We're just watering down the word.
How about a Western Dynasty then? If wins are what count, we'll be on our 5th win in a row.
Bombers: A Western Dynasty
I could agree to a Western Dynasty however is five years enough? Much smaller scale so you would expect more wins before you could call it a Dynasty.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 05, 2024, 12:10:05 AMHow about a Western Dynasty then? If wins are what count, we'll be on our 5th win in a row.
Bombers: A Western Dynasty
Sounds like the equivalent of a participation trophy
Quote from: bluengold204 on November 05, 2024, 12:35:25 AMSounds like the equivalent of a participation trophy
Is winning the west "participation"? How many teams would give their left dangly to win their division and play in the GC??
When we clobber SSK, how much would those players/fans trade to just have won that one game even if it meant losing the cup?
It's so easy for us to minimize winning the west because we basically do it every year now and it's old hat. Think back to what winning the WDF would have meant to us in 2017 or 2018? We're so spoiled now.
It's no small feat. It's an amazing feat. We should celebrate it!
What matters most is making the rest of the West cry, especially CGY and SSK. I don't really care about MTL and TOR fans, all 5k of them. Our rivalries are all in the West. The gravy is: we can make them cry twice, once hosing their teams in the post-season, and once more by actually winning the cup this time!
Quote from: bluengold204 on November 05, 2024, 12:35:25 AMSounds like the equivalent of a participation trophy
Yeah going to the cup that many times in a row is a partication award. Wow I have heard it all.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 05, 2024, 12:10:05 AMHow about a Western Dynasty then? If wins are what count, we'll be on our 5th win in a row.
Bombers: A Western Dynasty
Again, to me, that's just watering down the word.
If you have to try to contextualize the word dynasty in order to make it fit, you're not talking about a dynasty.
Quote from: Blueforlife on November 05, 2024, 05:32:56 AMYeah going to the cup that many times in a row is a partication award. Wow I have heard it all.
Of course it is.
Quote from: Blueforlife on November 05, 2024, 05:32:56 AMYeah going to the cup that many times in a row is a partication award. Wow I have heard it all.
It's literally that. You get the right to participate in the grey cup if you win the west or east.
I don't care what you call it. This is the best run the Bombers have had in my lifetime and I'm 67. This is the time the younger folks will tell their grandkids about.
Quote from: bluengold204 on November 05, 2024, 12:56:15 PMIt's literally that. You get the right to participate in the grey cup if you win the west or east.
Understating the achievement imo
Quote from: TBURGESS on November 05, 2024, 02:23:20 PMI don't care what you call it. This is the best run the Bombers have had in my lifetime and I'm 67. This is the time the younger folks will tell their grandkids about.
Holy TBurg! You okay? That's the most positive thing I think I've ever heard you say in (literally) almost 15 years of forum interactions. It's official folks, it's been a good time.
Quote from: TBURGESS on November 05, 2024, 02:23:20 PMI don't care what you call it. This is the best run the Bombers have had in my lifetime and I'm 67. This is the time the younger folks will tell their grandkids about.
and you have one man to thank for it - Micheal O'Shea
Quote from: The Zipp on November 05, 2024, 05:32:49 PMand you have one man to thank for it - Micheal O'Shea
The Canadian Mafia is comprised of three capos. And to this day, they still keep Dave Dickenson up at night.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 05, 2024, 05:52:30 PMThe Canadian Mafia is comprised of three capos. And to this day, they still keep Dave Dickenson up at night.
Dave became a Canadian citizen on Canada Day earlier this year, if you can't beat 'em join 'em!
Yes, it has been a very good run for the Bombers, the best in my 65 years of existence. But dynasty's are defined by championship wins, not divisional titles. Does anyone care how many times a team wins the Division in the NHL or NFL--arguably much harder divisions to win consecutively than the CFL West. They win another Grey Cup, that would make it 3 in the last 5 championship games, I think they'd be considered a dynasty team as they've won 60% of the grey Cups they've been in in the last 5 years, lose and winning only 2 of the last 5 doesn't make them a dynasty, just a good consistent team.
Agree with the sentiment that dynasty has, and will always be, a nameplate for teams that have consecutive records of winning the Grey Cup.
Win or lose most fans, including me, will always treasure the current run the Bombers are on but they need to put together some Grey Cup wins to be considered a dynasty.
Quote from: ModAdmin on November 06, 2024, 05:59:48 AMAgree with the sentiment that dynasty has, and will always be, a nameplate for teams that have consecutive records of winning the Grey Cup.
Win or lose most fans, including me, will always treasure the current run the Bombers are on but they need to put together some Grey Cup wins to be considered a dynasty.
Totally agree. On the one hand, we're incredibly lucky to have this sustained success, and I will admit that I'm spoiled; it's not enough to get to the Cup, I need them to win it to feel satisfied. Maybe it's arbitrary, but in my soul I need them to win three. Even if they win it next year, I just need three, then I'd feel like a satisfied Bombers fan.
The problem with "dynasty" is that comparisons just get more and more unreasonable. Is this as good as the 78-82 Eskimos? Probably not. Have things changed since then? Absolutely. Would any franchise in the CFL have signed up for the run the Bombers had since 2019? Absolutely and without question. Every single one.
One thing that's certain is that teams rise and fall. We'll be 3-15 again. That's a guarantee. And that is real disappointment. Win or lose Saturday, hosting the West Final is great and there are 7 other teams that wish they were us right now. Enjoy it and who cares about the legacy.
If the Bombers win a third championship in five years, I suppose the dynasty discussion could be had.
In the meantime, though, I think we can all agree the success this team has had the last 5-7 years has really solidified the legacy of those within the organization who have contributed to that success.
That's an important legacy, IMO.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 06, 2024, 06:17:54 PMIf the Bombers win a third championship in five years, I suppose the dynasty discussion could be had.
In the meantime, though, I think we can all agree the success this team has had the last 5-7 years has really solidified the legacy of those within the organization who have contributed to that success.
That's an important legacy, IMO.
100% agree. That fact can't be denied.
Quote from: Zach Schnitzer on November 06, 2024, 04:19:08 PMEven if they win it next year, I just need three, then I'd feel like a satisfied Bombers fan.
I'm saving this one away to re-post once we've won 3 and you change that number to 4... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 08, 2024, 05:21:09 AMI'm saving this one away to re-post once we've won 3 and you change that number to 4... ;D ;D ;D ;D
😂😂😂
Chez & Milt say we're a dynasty now, even if we lose the cup. But we'd be a "Championship Dynasty" if we win.
Dynasty now. But we want a championship dynast to go with the dynasty.
Ah the tides have changed and we can smell the D word :)
First team in salary cap era history to go to five straight Grey Cups. That's pretty mindboggling. Don't know if it qualifies as dynasty but it absolutely qualifies for 'omg they are good'.
Quote from: Jesse on November 03, 2024, 01:54:32 PMEveryone would. That's the point we're making. Dynasty = wins.
If we lose to Montreal or Toronto, they've had exactly as much success as we've had over the last 5 seasons. Are there then 2 Dynasties operating at the same time? That doesn't even make sense, imo.
Sadly you are correct.
For example the Buffalo Bills and Vikings that went to 5 Super Bowls are
Not considered dynasties.
I guess the better question is do you consider Montreal a dynasty under AC when they won in 2002, 2009 and 2010?
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 10, 2024, 01:19:46 PMFirst team in salary cap era history to go to five straight Grey Cups. That's pretty mindboggling. Don't know if it qualifies as dynasty but it absolutely qualifies for 'omg they are good'.
It also qualifies for "class/flagship of the league" and "standard by which to measure consistent success" as well.
This organization is a well oiled machine from top to bottom. And it's phenomenal to witness.
For me, you need three championships in 4-6 years to be considered a dynasty. The Montreal example is interesting as it's over an eight year span. Is that still a dynasty? I don't know.
Quote from: Zach Schnitzer on November 11, 2024, 02:32:36 AMFor me, you need three championships in 4-6 years to be considered a dynasty. The Montreal example is interesting as it's over an eight year span. Is that still a dynasty? I don't know.
Me neither. That said we are on a great run and I am totally enjoying it regardless of what you call it. Thank you OShea, Miller and Walters.
Quote from: Zach Schnitzer on November 11, 2024, 02:32:36 AMFor me, you need three championships in 4-6 years to be considered a dynasty. The Montreal example is interesting as it's over an eight year span. Is that still a dynasty? I don't know.
Ya, I think you'd be allowed a mulligan year every 3-4 where you only get to the WDF or something. CGY with BLM was getting pretty dynasty-ish on their big run, even though they only won 2.
How about this: you're a dynasty when every other teams'
fans are bloody sick of you being in the division finals and cup?
CGY 7 years ago: check
WPG now: check
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 11, 2024, 07:49:30 PMHow about this: you're a dynasty when every other teams' fans are bloody sick of you being in the division finals and cup?
CGY 7 years ago: check
WPG now: check
Hahahaha
Point taken