Seven Blue Bombers named to Divisional All-CFL Team
WINNIPEG, MB., October 31, 2024 – The Canadian Football League today unveiled its 2024 Divisional All-CFL Teams, with seven members of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers named to the West squad.
Honoured as members of the West Division All-CFL Team are running back Brady Oliveira, receiver Nic Demski, offensive tackle Stanley Bryant, guard Liam Dobson, defensive end Willie Jefferson, cornerback Tyrell Ford, and defensive back Deatrick Nichols.
The voting was conducted by members of The Football Reporters of Canada, the FRC's national chapter and head coaches in the West Division.
Brady Oliveira earns a place on the division All-Star Team for a second straight season after again leading the league in rushing and yards from scrimmage. Oliveira finished the season with 1,353 yards rushing and four touchdowns (three rushing, one receiving) and averaged 79.6 yards rushing per game while posting six 100-yard games. Oliveira also had 476 receiving yards on a career-high 57 receptions to finish the year with 1,829 yards from scrimmage.
Oliveira was also recently named the Blue Bombers' Most Outstanding Player and Most Outstanding Canadian for a second straight season.
Nic Demski cracked the 1,000-yard receiving mark for the second consecutive season and second time in his career. He led the Blue Bombers in receiving yardage with 1,030 yards on 76 receptions – both career highs. This is Demski's fourth divisional all-star berth, having been also selected in 2021, 2022 and 2023. He was named the Blue Bombers' top Canadian in 2021 and 2022.
Stanley Bryant keeps adding to his impressive career resumé, having now been named a divisional all-star for a ninth time after also being selected in 2013-14 and 2017-23. The most-decorated linemen in CFL history as a four-time winner of the league's Most Outstanding Offensive Lineman award, Bryant continued to man the left side of the Blue Bombers front and played an integral role in Oliveira's rushing crown and helping protect Zach Collaros as he set a new career high in passing yards at 4,336. Bryant was also named the Blue Bombers Most Outstanding Offensive Lineman for a seventh time.
Liam Dobson, the Blue Bombers left guard, has been saluted as a member of the West Division All-CFL Team for the first time in his career. The 26-year-old Ottawa product was in his first full season as a starter and started all 18 regular-season games as part of a line that helped Oliveira earn a second-straight rushing title. Dobson was the Blue Bombers' first pick, third overall, in the 2021 CFL Draft.
Willie Jefferson has earned a spot on the West Division All-CFL Team for the seventh consecutive season after previously being named from 2017-19 and 2021-23. Jefferson posted a team-leading six quarterback sacks, adding one forced fumble, two fumble recoveries and 10 pass knockdowns along with 25 defensive tackles.
Deatrick Nichols posted the best numbers in his career in earning a third spot on the division all-star team after being recognized in 2021 and 2022. Nichols finished with a career-high 48 tackles and added three interceptions – matching his career best – including his first Pick-6 in a win over Calgary in July. He also had a team-high two forced fumbles and one fumble recovery.
Tyrell Ford made his first season as a starting corner for the Blue Bombers a memorable one in earning his first career all-star berth while also being named the team's Most Outstanding Defensive Player. Ford led the Blue Bombers with seven interceptions and finished second to Evan Holm in total defensive plays with 74 on 51 defensive tackles, four special-teams tackles, and 12 pass knockdowns – the second-highest total in the CFL. Ford was the Blue Bombers' first pick, 13th overall, in the 2022 CFL Draft.
Here is the full list for both teams, some surprises, Liam Dobson???
2024 DIVISIONAL ALL-CFL TEAMS
�(POS | West Division | East Division)
* Denotes a National player
�^ Denotes a Global player
OFFENCE
QB | Trevor Harris (SSK) | Bo Levi Mitchell (HAM)
RB | Brady Oliveira (WPG)* | Ka'Deem Carey (TOR)
REC | Justin McInnis (BC)* | Justin Hardy (OTT)
REC | Samuel Emilus (SSK)* | Tim White (HAM)
REC | Reggie Begelton (CGY) | Shemar Bridges (HAM)
REC | Eugene Lewis (EDM) | Makai Polk (TOR)
REC | Nic Demski (WPG)* | Steven Dunbar Jr. (HAM)
CEN | Mark Korte (EDM)* | David Beard (HAM)*
G | Logan Ferland (SSK)* | Ryan Hunter (TOR)*
G | Liam Dobson (WPG)* | Drew Desjarlais (OTT)*
OT | Stanley Bryant (WPG) | Dejon Allen (TOR)
OT | Martez Ivey (EDM) | Nick Callender (MTL)
DEFENCE
DE | Willie Jefferson (WPG) | Lorenzo Mauldin IV (OTT)
DE | Elliott Brown (EDM) | Isaac Adeyemi-Berglund (MTL)*
DT | Micah Johnson (SSK) | Jake Ceresna (TOR)
DT | Mike Rose (CGY) | Michael Wakefield (OTT)
LB | Jameer Thurman (SSK) | Tyrice Beverette (MTL)
LB | Nick Anderson (EDM) | Darnell Sankey (MTL)
CLB | C.J. Reavis (SSK) | Adarius Pickett (OTT)
CB | Tyrell Ford (WPG)* | Jamal Peters (HAM)
CB | Marcus Sayles (SSK) | Kabion Ento (MTL)
HB | Rolan Milligan Jr. (SSK) | DaShaun Amos (TOR)
HB | Deatrick Nichols (WPG) | Damon Webb (OTT)
S | Loucheiz Purifoy (EDM) | Marc-Antoine Dequoy (MTL)*
SPECIAL TEAMS
K | Sean Whyte (BC)* | Lirim Hajrullahu (TOR)*
P | Jake Julien (EDM)* | John Haggerty (TOR)^
ST | Rolan Milligan Jr. (SSK) | Janarion Grant (TOR)
Dobson surprised me. I'm wondering how thin the rest of the west is at guard if Dobson is an all-star.
I'm also wondering if we get Bryant for another year. No reason to stop now.
Quote from: peg_city on October 30, 2024, 03:35:20 PMDobson surprised me. I'm wondering how thin the rest of the west is at guard if Dobson is an all-star.
I'm also wondering if we get Bryant for another year. No reason to stop now.
Realizing it is a money game, I wonder how many potential retirees and potential free agents will hang around for 2025 because it is a Grey Cup year in Winnipeg?
Quote from: peg_city on October 30, 2024, 03:35:20 PMDobson surprised me. I'm wondering how thin the rest of the west is at guard if Dobson is an all-star.
Ya, so many complaining about Dobson most games. Then again Ko-man and Neufeld also get their share of criticism. And Lofton is very hit & miss each week.
If we're doing armchair cuts of OL and Dobson often comes up (like I often want to sit him for Randolph), then why is he making OL allstar lists? And I think he got an asterisk, meaning he was a unanimous shoe-in? Very bizarre.
Are we missing something? Is he like super great in the run game or something? I haven't seen that... I guess he's had some good games, but also so many whiffs in pass-pro.
Puzzled.
On the bright side, I don't think any team will try to poach any of our OL in FA, as there aren't any Desjars and Coutures this season. So we should be able to retain whoever we want for reasonable $$.
Big snub of Kenny to give one to Demski but not him. Ya, injuries... but still, nearly $300k elite REC gets nothing. He won't be happy about that.
On that bright side, should be easier to retain him and keep vying for salary reductions!
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 30, 2024, 09:40:11 PMBig snub of Kenny to give one to Demski but not him. Ya, injuries... but still, nearly $300k elite REC gets nothing. He won't be happy about that.
On that bright side, should be easier to retain him and keep vying for salary reductions!
I don't think its a big snub when you only get 662 yards receiving. Also his receptions to targets was poor at 62%. 2nd year in a row with the big contract and less than 1000 yards. Availablity is part of ability
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 30, 2024, 09:40:11 PMBig snub of Kenny to give one to Demski but not him. Ya, injuries... but still, nearly $300k elite REC gets nothing. He won't be happy about that.
On that bright side, should be easier to retain him and keep vying for salary reductions!
Lmao. How is it a snub of Kenny?
He would be like 30th on the list of options.
Quote from: Pete on October 30, 2024, 09:49:29 PMI don't think its a big snub when you only get 662 yards receiving. Also his receptions to targets was poor at 62%. 2nd year in a row with the big contract and less than 1000 yards. Availablity is part of ability
Third year in a row. Also got paid and under-produced in Edmonton.
Quote from: Jesse on October 30, 2024, 09:49:40 PMLmao. How is it a snub of Kenny?
He would be like 30th on the list of options.
In Kenny's mind it'll be a snub of Kenny. Kenny thinks he's miles away the best receiver in the CFL, and says so often.
And I'm not dissing Kenny: I love me some Kenny and still want him on the team, but he needs to be more affordable while his numbers remain depressed.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 30, 2024, 10:01:53 PMIn Kenny's mind it'll be a snub of Kenny. Kenny thinks he's miles away the best receiver in the CFL, and says so often.
And I'm not dissing Kenny: I love me some Kenny and still want him on the team, but he needs to be more affordable while his numbers remain depressed.
They've always been depressed. He's yet to ever put together a full season.
Lawler had a pretty forgettable season - again.
He didn't get snubbed - and he'd be delusional to think otherwise.
Que the Lawler or Shoen debate in the off-season.
Quote from: peg_city on October 31, 2024, 12:35:31 PMQue the Lawler or Shoen debate in the off-season.
Both at the right price. Load up for the '25 chip run!
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 30, 2024, 09:39:00 PMYa, so many complaining about Dobson most games. Then again Ko-man and Neufeld also get their share of criticism. And Lofton is very hit & miss each week.
If we're doing armchair cuts of OL and Dobson often comes up (like I often want to sit him for Randolph), then why is he making OL allstar lists? And I think he got an asterisk, meaning he was a unanimous shoe-in? Very bizarre.
Are we missing something? Is he like super great in the run game or something? I haven't seen that... I guess he's had some good games, but also so many whiffs in pass-pro.
Puzzled.
On the bright side, I don't think any team will try to poach any of our OL in FA, as there aren't any Desjars and Coutures this season. So we should be able to retain whoever we want for reasonable $$.
Dobson was better earlier in the year but cooled although I had him ranked for awhile as my top offensive lineman. Said as much in the prediction MVP thread. PFF had him at a game over 80 earlier this year and another at 78 which are outstanding numbers. Overall the group wasn't great in pass pro this year and ultimately are an average unit. Consistency was the biggest issue. Room for improvement without question even though Zach likes to hold the ball at times.
QuoteIt was an up-and-down season for the Blue Bombers' offensive line. Overall, they finished as a solid group; they were the fifth-highest graded offensive line with a 68.3 offensive grade and the third-highest graded run-blocking group with a 71.8 run-blocking grade. However, the Blue Bombers struggled in pass protection, finishing as the eighth-ranked group with a 59.2 pass-blocking grade.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on October 31, 2024, 01:27:36 PMDobson was better earlier in the year but cooled although I had him ranked for awhile as my top offensive lineman. Said as much in the prediction MVP thread. PFF had him at a game over 80 earlier this year and another at 78 which are outstanding numbers. Overall the group wasn't great in pass pro this year and ultimately are an average unit. Consistency was the biggest issue. Room for improvement without question even though Zach likes to hold the ball at times.
Does the site supply each individual player's numbers? I'm wondering who is the weakest link. Where can we improve for next season (me might be able to get Hardrick back at a reduced price).
Number of selected players:
SSK-9
TOR-9
EDM-7
WPG-7
HAM-6
MTL-6
OTT-6
BC-2
CAL-2
EDM went from 0 players last year to 7 this year
Quote from: peg_city on October 31, 2024, 01:36:00 PMDoes the site supply each individual player's numbers? I'm wondering who is the weakest link. Where can we improve for next season (me might be able to get Hardrick back at a reduced price).
Players are rated per game to make up the total line score, so yes. As far as weak links go, there wasn't any single player on the offensive line who was a sub-60 rating this year, which is more or less defined as underperforming.
Last year, despite being the top ranked line by a WIDE margin Geoff Gray was actually sub 60 on the season and he's not here anymore so draw your own conclusions (Hardrick was also our top PFF scored lineman and he got paid top lineman dollars in the off-season for a reason).
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on October 31, 2024, 01:44:37 PMPlayers are rated per game to make up the total line score, so yes. As far as weak links go, there wasn't any single player on the offensive line who was a sub-60 rating this year, which is more or less defined as underperforming.
Last year, despite being the top ranked line by a WIDE margin Geoff Gray was actually sub 60 on the season and he's not here anymore so draw your own conclusions (Hardrick was also our top PFF scored lineman and he got paid top lineman dollars in the off-season for a reason).
I'm guessing that the reason our o-line wasn't great this year was because of the loss of Hardrick?
Quote from: peg_city on October 31, 2024, 02:37:57 PMI'm guessing that the reason our o-line wasn't great this year was because of the loss of Hardrick?
I'd say a combination of factors. It hurts to lose what was (as far as PFF ratings are concerned anyway) our most effective offensive lineman. Additionally, you're going to see declines in offensive lineman output past a certain age and that output will trend downward each subsequent season. Bryant (38) and Neufeld (35) are both examples of this to varying degrees and how much further they fall next year is unknown but basically guaranteed. For Bryant it helps that he was SO good in his prime that his fall takes longer, especially given his ability to avoid major injury.
There is lots of research in this area in the NFL. Statistically, tackles begin to regress at age 32 onwards (LT especially) so that goes to show how good Bryant truly is. Guards maybe a year or two after that.
If you're the Bombers, therefore, you can't expect increases in play from Bryant or Neufeld at all, and you should come in with the expectation they will be a little less effective if both are retained. Dobson (26) and Eli (28) are still reasonably on their way up or even. Kolankowski (32) and Lofton (31) are on the bubble. How much better Gabe Wallace (24) can get is unknown but they seem pleased.
For the Grey Cup run next year, adding a blue chip highly rated guard or tackle (depending their plans for Bryant and Neufeld) would be important to get back to dominating. I think it's virtually impossible for the offensive line to be much better next year than this year without adding at least one face that has been a proven contributor.
Also, we can't forget that Collaros is significantly harder to pass protect for than Trevor Harris, for example (so their pass pro PFF should be taken with a bit of a grain of salt), but then again Collaros has shown no signs of turning into a quick release QB like some veteran QBs do. So next year the job is probably going to be equally as hard.
Interesting that this season Zach had the most passing yards in his career.
4,336.
surprised me.
CFL 18 17 488 342 70.1 4,336 8.9 240.9 17 3.5 15 3.1 76
17 td passes half of the two prior seasons, 33 and 37.
https://www.footballdb.com/players/zach-collaros-collaza01
For all the Lawler bashing going on, you don't pay Lawler for making easy yards, you pay him for making the tough catches, in tough coverage, at vital moments.
His catches don't often dazzle the stat sheets, but they make the highlight reels. He can make a 20 yard contested catch, and make the team feel like it scored a TD. He's a momentum changer.
In a perfect world, he'd get 1500 yards and also make those spectacular plays. But a lot of the time, he's pulling coverage so that other guys can make catches.
As to anyone thinking Kenny sees this as "a snub", I don't think that i fair. From what I'veseen, Kenny is proud f his catches, but isn't a "me first" kind of player. That'd never fly with Osh, and he'd never have been brought back.
He's the one handed catch toe tap inbounds in triple coverage for a TD kinda guy. The guy that's top of the checkdowns when the game is on the line. And either he gets the throw, or has drawn defender away from the guy that gets it.
IMHO, he's been worth every penny, and if we can get him for less next year as salaries correct themselves, we're getting a deal.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on October 31, 2024, 05:01:07 PMIf you're the Bombers, therefore, you can't expect increases in play from Bryant or Neufeld at all, and you should come in with the expectation they will be a little less effective if both are retained. Dobson (26) and Eli (28) are still reasonably on their way up or even. Kolankowski (32) and Lofton (31) are on the bubble. How much better Gabe Wallace (24) can get is unknown but they seem pleased.
For the Grey Cup run next year, adding a blue chip highly rated guard or tackle (depending their plans for Bryant and Neufeld) would be important to get back to dominating. I think it's virtually impossible for the offensive line to be much better next year than this year without adding at least one face that has been a proven contributor.
No love for Kendall Randolph? He was on the AR for 6 games when Neufeld went down, and I thought he did really well. incidentally, he came in right when our losing streak (resulting from our inability to provide pass protection or get a running game going) stopped.....
Quote from: VictorRomano on October 31, 2024, 07:59:18 PMNo love for Kendall Randolph? He was on the AR for 6 games when Neufeld went down, and I thought he did really well. incidentally, he came in right when our losing streak (resulting from our inability to provide pass protection or get a running game going) stopped.....
Didn't mean to leave him out. I really like him. Sample size is small but he's someone who could be a big piece next year. Played a lot of guard but he'll be hard pressed to start there in 2025 for ratio reasons. Not sure where he fits in that context.
Quote from: theaardvark on October 31, 2024, 07:34:28 PMFor all the Lawler bashing going on, you don't pay Lawler for making easy yards, you pay him for making the tough catches, in tough coverage, at vital moments.
His catches don't often dazzle the stat sheets, but they make the highlight reels. He can make a 20 yard contested catch, and make the team feel like it scored a TD. He's a momentum changer.
In a perfect world, he'd get 1500 yards and also make those spectacular plays. But a lot of the time, he's pulling coverage so that other guys can make catches.
As to anyone thinking Kenny sees this as "a snub", I don't think that i fair. From what I'veseen, Kenny is proud f his catches, but isn't a "me first" kind of player. That'd never fly with Osh, and he'd never have been brought back.
He's the one handed catch toe tap inbounds in triple coverage for a TD kinda guy. The guy that's top of the checkdowns when the game is on the line. And either he gets the throw, or has drawn defender away from the guy that gets it.
IMHO, he's been worth every penny, and if we can get him for less next year as salaries correct themselves, we're getting a deal.
The problem with Lawler is Zach's perception that he can throw to him anytime and he'll somehow come down with the ball. This mindset leads to some very bad throws made at the worst of times when Zach is under high pressure in the backfield. If the Bombers want to win the GC Zach has to avoid throwing into double coverage against the better secondaries, 3 things can happen and 2 of them are bad. I'm not religious but I'm praying Woli is ready to go for the West Final, just to give Zach another reliable target.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on October 31, 2024, 01:27:36 PMDobson was better earlier in the year but cooled although I had him ranked for awhile as my top offensive lineman. Said as much in the prediction MVP thread. PFF had him at a game over 80 earlier this year and another at 78 which are outstanding numbers. Overall the group wasn't great in pass pro this year and ultimately are an average unit. Consistency was the biggest issue. Room for improvement without question even though Zach likes to hold the ball at times.
I wonder if PFF puts more emphasis on run block? Surely we were better at roadgrading than at pass-pro?
Quote from: peg_city on October 31, 2024, 02:37:57 PMI'm guessing that the reason our o-line wasn't great this year was because of the loss of Hardrick?
The fact Yoshi was the highest-rated WPG OL in '23 kind of proves the above theory. He was regularly whiffing on pass-pro, but was basically a monster in Brady roadgrading. I think that's our biggest loss this year, as our roadgrading has suffered a bit.
Quote from: peg_city on October 31, 2024, 01:36:00 PMDoes the site supply each individual player's numbers? I'm wondering who is the weakest link. Where can we improve for next season (me might be able to get Hardrick back at a reduced price).
I think Hardrick hit the wall and is done. Based on what transpired this season KW made the best move ever by letting him walk to SSK for zillions of $, some of which was probably bonus so they didn't get full 6GIR SMS relief.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on October 31, 2024, 09:52:35 PMDidn't mean to leave him out. I really like him. Sample size is small but he's someone who could be a big piece next year. Played a lot of guard but he'll be hard pressed to start there in 2025 for ratio reasons. Not sure where he fits in that context.
Clearly we don't like to make drastic changes in the OL mid-season, for "gelling" and continuity.
So I would slot Randolph in as a G from week 1 next season. We have the ratio to, so do it. Either Neufeld retires (doubt it) or Dobson can move back to 6th, or if he's still under contract, see if we can trade-bait him after we win the GC!
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 03, 2024, 01:38:45 AMClearly we don't like to make drastic changes in the OL mid-season, for "gelling" and continuity.
So I would slot Randolph in as a G from week 1 next season. We have the ratio to, so do it. Either Neufeld retires (doubt it) or Dobson can move back to 6th, or if he's still under contract, see if we can trade-bait him after we win the GC!
Clearly the O-line's performance has declined over the past few years, can't see them remaining status quo next season.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 03, 2024, 01:38:45 AMClearly we don't like to make drastic changes in the OL mid-season, for "gelling" and continuity.
So I would slot Randolph in as a G from week 1 next season. We have the ratio to, so do it. Either Neufeld retires (doubt it) or Dobson can move back to 6th, or if he's still under contract, see if we can trade-bait him after we win the GC!
So we re going to move our all star to be the 6th O line?? Doesn't make much sense
Quote from: dd on November 03, 2024, 10:04:02 PMSo we re going to move our all star to be the 6th O line?? Doesn't make much sense
All depends how WFC grades them out. Just because media & PFF are rating Dobson highly, doesn't mean he's not our main problem.
And I'm not even blaming Dobson. The problem may be Neufeld. Or the problem is in the middle with Ko-man. But almost no one will say our interior OL is anywhere near above league average.
As someone else said, our OL was magically much better the instant we put Randolph in at guard... explain that, eh?
Let's hope the problem isn't Ko-man (I'm not making any bets!) because getting a quality Couture-level C in the off-season that can play year 1 is basically impossible unless we pay Couture-stealing money in FA. Which we never do, so let's forget about it.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 04, 2024, 12:14:27 AMAll depends how WFC grades them out. Just because media & PFF are rating Dobson highly, doesn't mean he's not our main problem.
And I'm not even blaming Dobson. The problem may be Neufeld. Or the problem is in the middle with Ko-man. But almost no one will say our interior OL is anywhere near above league average.
As someone else said, our OL was magically much better the instant we put Randolph in at guard... explain that, eh?
Let's hope the problem isn't Ko-man (I'm not making any bets!) because getting a quality Couture-level C in the off-season that can play year 1 is basically impossible unless we pay Couture-stealing money in FA. Which we never do, so let's forget about it.
So, they are so bad that Brady won the rushing title?
Quote from: theaardvark on November 04, 2024, 12:34:32 AMSo, they are so bad that Brady won the rushing title?
Both things can be true simultaneously.
A) We are a run-mostly team. We literally run on 1st most of most games because that's what we do. I bet Brady had literally dozens more carries than the next guy.
B) We seem to be grading better on the run-blocking than pass-pro. Most will say our interior (and RT) pass-pro has left a lot to be desired.
Clearly our OL is pretty stinky compared to our dominant years like 2021, especially in terms of protecting Zach. Remember how we'd go entire swathes of the season where Zach would get hit 0 or 1 times a game? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
Quote from: theaardvark on November 04, 2024, 12:34:32 AMSo, they are so bad that Brady won the rushing title?
It's not really run blocking that has declined, although I swear it has since Gray and Yoshi left. It's the amount of sacks given up over the past 3 years that has increased significantly that are threatening Zach's well being. Remember well before 2019 the O-line was able to keep Matt Nichols completely clean for games on end. The decline has been ongoing for awhile now.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 04, 2024, 12:59:23 AMRemember well before 2019 the O-line was able to keep Matt Nichols completely clean for games on end. The decline has been ongoing for awhile now.
Very true. It's a slow drip. I think the quality of NAT OL you can get in 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounds has been dropping significantly. The general level of OL talent coming out of U sports may be dropping, too.
That's why I think we should look to IMPs to shore up the problem since we always have the ratio space. For instance, why not an IMP C? No one ever even peeks at those guys. Surely there must be a lot of them out there to scout?
I'm not against starting 4(!!) IMP OL until we can fix our fairly bad OL drafting. But clearly the changes have to come in TC and week 1, as MOS will not make drastic changes late-season.
Or, study what the current great OLs teams are doing: how are they building such impenetrable walls? Just copy it.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 04, 2024, 01:07:31 AMVery true. It's a slow drip. I think the quality of NAT OL you can get in 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounds has been dropping significantly. The general level of OL talent coming out of U sports may be dropping, too.
That's why I think we should look to IMPs to shore up the problem since we always have the ratio space. For instance, why not an IMP C? No one ever even peeks at those guys. Surely there must be a lot of them out there to scout?
I'm not against starting 4(!!) IMP OL until we can fix our fairly bad OL drafting. But clearly the changes have to come in TC and week 1, as MOS will not make drastic changes late-season.
Or, study what the current great OLs teams are doing: how are they building such impenetrable walls? Just copy it.
What are you going on about? We've had the best offensive line in the league by a wide margin (and probably one of the best ever) for about five years. This year they're middle of the pack. Actually, the third best run blocking line and fifth in pass protection.
It's going to need a bit of work in the off season but it's not terrible and what possible changes would you have made in the off season leading up to this season?
...and bad drafting? Seriously?
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 05, 2024, 02:34:18 AMWhat are you going on about? We've had the best offensive line in the league by a wide margin (and probably one of the best ever) for about five years. This year they're middle of the pack. Actually, the third best run blocking line and fifth in pass protection.
Our best was maybe 2021, maybe 2022. That's when it started that when we lost a star guy to big$ FA we replaced him with someone not as good. I can't really think of an exception!
Couture to Ko-man: downgrade.
Desjar to Gray: huge downgrade
Gray to Dobson: downgrade
Yoshi to Lofton: huge downgrade (made less painful by Yoshi going IR all year)
Add in the slightly worse performance year after year with the geriatric Big Stan and Neufeld. Still very good/great guys, but not 2022 great. Someone else posted how after 32 it's steadily downhill for OL.
It's nothing but downgrades. Sometimes slight (Gray to Dobson), sometimes egregious (Desjar to Gray).
It all adds up. In '23 we were still able to make it hold together, but in '24 the dam has broken.
Have you seen our OL against the league top-3 pass-rush teams? Like TOR@WPG the other day in a must-win game? Ya, that's not a dominant OL anymore. That's a get-Zach-killed hope-we-can-outplay-our-talent-for-a-half-of-football OL. And we run jumbo more than every other team because of it!
Like you said with your rankings, we aren't the worst. That's not the point. The point is there are probably 3 OLs now that make ours look like children.
Ask yourself this, would this lineup be better or worse than our current one? Because if we had wanted to spend the $$ (ya, pipe dream) we could right now be fielding:
BRYANT DESJAR COUTURE NEUFELD HARDRICK(if healthy)
Now
that would be the best OL in the league and no one would touch Zach!
I can't believe you don't see it.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 05, 2024, 02:34:18 AM...and bad drafting? Seriously?
"Bad" as in "not as good as the superior OLs right now". Not bad as in "horrifically awful turnstiles".
Look at us giving up our 1RDP in draft24. Look at us not taking OL until way down the rounds in some/many of the last 5 years.
Look at us not making any FA OL splash since Stan & Yoshi. Even worse, we always let our top NATs walk for big $$ after cup appearances.
And our hopper/pipeline for OL is as bad as it's ever been! The cupboard is bare. It's so bare we had to resort to an IMP OG for the first time since Bond left in '17!
And because we get to the cup every year, the drafting situation won't be fixed anytime soon unless we start trading for some 1RDPs.
Something's gotta give. We'll have to become FA buyers, not sellers, or we need to find solutions in cheaper IMP guards (which I advocate).
Our OL is still good enough to win games, even WDFs and GCs, but they certainly aren't league top-3, or our top-3 team unit. We win in spite of them, not because of them.
I have a strange feeling that after this cup appearance in 2 weeks it'll be the first time in forever that teams aren't looking to offer our OL guys huge FA$$ of $200k+. That will be the final proof, and it may be our saving grace.
I fully hope and expect we field a stronger OL in '25. I'll be shocked if it's the same 5 starters as the end of this season.
If Gray to Dobson is a downgrade to you, you don't understand what you're watching.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 05, 2024, 03:27:41 AMIf Gray to Dobson is a downgrade to you, you don't understand what you're watching.
What about 99% of my other points? You could argue Gray/Dobson. That's why I said "slight downgrade". You could argue "slight upgrade" and I'd entertain that idea.
However, our OL with Dobson had a much worse start to the season than our OL with Gray in '23. Zach has been put on his back more this season than any other, as well as more pressures and throwaways. It's hard to pinpoint the weak link, because there may not be one: it may be a "weak 2-4 guys"!
I don't have all the answers, but I do know Dobson isn't Desjar. Pick this nit and call Dobson an upgrade over Gray, my main point still stands.
Quote from: theaardvark on October 31, 2024, 07:34:28 PMFor all the Lawler bashing going on, you don't pay Lawler for making easy yards, you pay him for making the tough catches, in tough coverage, at vital moments.
His catches don't often dazzle the stat sheets, but they make the highlight reels. He can make a 20 yard contested catch, and make the team feel like it scored a TD. He's a momentum changer.
In a perfect world, he'd get 1500 yards and also make those spectacular plays. But a lot of the time, he's pulling coverage so that other guys can make catches.
As to anyone thinking Kenny sees this as "a snub", I don't think that i fair. From what I'veseen, Kenny is proud f his catches, but isn't a "me first" kind of player. That'd never fly with Osh, and he'd never have been brought back.
He's the one handed catch toe tap inbounds in triple coverage for a TD kinda guy. The guy that's top of the checkdowns when the game is on the line. And either he gets the throw, or has drawn defender away from the guy that gets it.
IMHO, he's been worth every penny, and if we can get him for less next year as salaries correct themselves, we're getting a deal.
People love to be over critical. He is money. Agree all. Let's make sure he retires here. Exceptional talent, game changer!
Our OL has been exceptional for many years and we had a rough start but came out pretty average. Up and down year based on the opponent. Room for improvement and the backbone of any top club.
It's odd that some people like to focus on "downgrades, aging detrimental, as well as "better teams" in 2022/23.
Yet somehow, with all those negatives, we have managed to climb out of a hole, end up in first place in the west resulting in a bye in the semi-finals and a free ticket to the Western Final. To me, the rhetoric about us being on a down hill trend is premature and not proven. In fact, our current status shows that we are the best team in the West.
Maybe wait until the season is over before diminishing the team with these types of comments. We have earned the right to be in the Western Final in OUR stadium and we seem to be odds on favourite to win that game. Enjoy the ride!
I don't think anyone is consistently focusing on downgrades.
But within this amazing run we've been on over the past several years, there's the context that we've struggled much more this year. And looking forward to both potential play-off math-ups and ahead to next season, it's fair to discuss why we've struggled and if we have hope for improvement.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 05, 2024, 04:05:47 AMWhat about 99% of my other points? You could argue Gray/Dobson. That's why I said "slight downgrade". You could argue "slight upgrade" and I'd entertain that idea.
Except that it's not a "slight downgrade" and you can entertain whatever you like. I agree that without some change it doesn't seem logical that the starting five will improve next year just based on age and natural regression. I am already on record saying we will need to do something and I am absolutely sure we will.
However, what changes would you have made to the offensive line last off-season? Because that's where you would have had to do it. Would you have passed on Stanley Bryant? Matched the Riders offer on Hardrick? Moved on from Kolankowski or Neufeld? Who would you have got that was available instead? Not so easy. And if there's one thing the Bombers have nailed since 2019 it's a very good offensive line. I'm sure they're working on it and projecting out to this off-season already. If you think you've noticed a decline I am pretty certain they have too. Right?
If you care to look you can see steps are being taken. There are no magic solutions. They obviously really like Vanterpool and Randolph. They've been working hard to get those guys pay cheques and they're on the 1-game IR for what I assume will be the entire playoffs because they want them back next year (no PR release for them) and they want them happy. They've given Gabe Wallace as many snaps as he can handle and they've really made an effort to keep him on the field which is rare for a first year Canadian offensive lineman.
Quote from: ModAdmin on November 05, 2024, 05:39:31 AMIt's odd that some people like to focus on "downgrades, aging detrimental, as well as "better teams" in 2022/23.
Yet somehow, with all those negatives, we have managed to climb out of a hole, end up in first place in the west resulting in a bye in the semi-finals and a free ticket to the Western Final. To me, the rhetoric about us being on a down hill trend is premature and not proven. In fact, our current status shows that we are the best team in the West.
Maybe wait until the season is over before diminishing the team with these types of comments. We have earned the right to be in the Western Final in OUR stadium and we seem to be odds on favourite to win that game. Enjoy the ride!
Sure, "best in the West", take a gander over the garden wall, the 2 best teams in the CFL now reside in the East.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 05, 2024, 03:15:56 PMExcept that it's not a "slight downgrade" and you can entertain whatever you like. I agree that without some change it doesn't seem logical that the starting five will improve next year just based on age and natural regression. I am already on record saying we will need to do something and I am absolutely sure we will.
However, what changes would you have made to the offensive line last off-season? Because that's where you would have had to do it. Would you have passed on Stanley Bryant? Matched the Riders offer on Hardrick? Moved on from Kolankowski or Neufeld? Who would you have got that was available instead? Not so easy. And if there's one thing the Bombers have nailed since 2019 it's a very good offensive line. I'm sure they're working on it and projecting out to this off-season already. If you think you've noticed a decline I am pretty certain they have too. Right?
If you care to look you can see steps are being taken. There are no magic solutions. They obviously really like Vanterpool and Randolph. They've been working hard to get those guys pay cheques and they're on the 1-game IR for what I assume will be the entire playoffs because they want them back next year (no PR release for them) and they want them happy. They've given Gabe Wallace as many snaps as he can handle and they've really made an effort to keep him on the field which is rare for a first year Canadian offensive lineman.
I would say in recent years the Natl. O-lineman pipeline has not always produced the needed replacements starting with Eli, who in his 4th year remains the 6th O-lineman and looks to have been bypassed by a younger prospect. Recent draft picks such as MB grads Adamamson and Kornelson have been quickly rejected, leaving Gabe Wallace as the sole Natl.left in the pipeline.
It could be their higher draft placement has hurt their efforts in the last 4 years with other teams snapping up the best prospects before they have the chance to select. From last years draft they picked 4 O-linemen, 3 of which either returned to college or are floating in limbo.
KALRA, Ethan
Waterloo
MANU, Giovanni (currently Detroit Lions 3rd backup)
UBC
VLAHOGIANNIS, Michael
McGill
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 05, 2024, 03:59:39 PMSure, "best in the West", take a gander over the garden wall, the 2 best teams in the CFL now reside in the East.
"Best in the West" is all I said. Never said the best in the CFL.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 05, 2024, 03:15:56 PMExcept that it's not a "slight downgrade" and you can entertain whatever you like. I agree that without some change it doesn't seem logical that the starting five will improve next year just based on age and natural regression. I am already on record saying we will need to do something and I am absolutely sure we will.
Then we're in agreement. I'm just trying to flesh out more of what many are thinking. Especially after reading a bit of MBB lately and seeing the absolute "sky is falling" attitude over there. (P.S. The truth is in the middle.)
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 05, 2024, 03:15:56 PMHowever, what changes would you have made to the offensive line last off-season? Because that's where you would have had to do it. Would you have passed on Stanley Bryant? Matched the Riders offer on Hardrick? Moved on from Kolankowski or Neufeld? Who would you have got that was available instead? Not so easy.
I don't have all the solutions. The only solution I offered during the season was start another 1 or 2 IMPs. The line clearly was better when Randolph was OG (not OT!). And that's shocking since MOS/others talk so much about "gel" and "you can't just plug & play midseason". This solution also applies to this FA. IMP OG's cost NOTHING compared to talented, limited and coveted NATs. While we have the huge ratio advantage, use it on the OL. Cheaper, better, plentiful: what's not to like?
You are totally correct and I totally agree: the previous off-season moves were limited, basically because we decided a long time ago we were a OL "seller" (good OL leave here) and we were only going to draft to replace them (never be a "buyer"). We also decided we weren't going to be a top-3 OL-spender. We had a budget for the hoggies and come heck or high water we were going to stick to it. (Kind of like our DL.) Finally, we insisted on being a traditional 3-NAT OL even when we didn't need to be.
The problem is our hopper was once full of promise: around the time Speller/Spooner were on the dev track we were at our "peak hopper". All those years of sucky outcomes let us get 1-2 promising OL every draft, and we stockpiled them as others fled. We didn't rush guys into starting without 1-2 full seasons of dev, unless they were clearly starter-ready (Chungh, Desjar) and/or we had injuries.
Right now our hopper is pretty dead. Eli is never going to be other than a great 6th (sorry, as a big fan it's painful to say). Wallace may be a future starter, but he's the least ready of them all right now. Probably needs 2 full seasons of dev to see what we have (I'm not holding my breath). And the hopper isn't going to get any better this off-season since we are going to win this cup and have bad drafting choices again.
Ko-man and Dobson may (probably!) not even be starters on the best OL teams (TOR, MTL for instance). Arguably we can do better here too. Pains me to say, also. Neufeld may have gotten too old. Lofton is barely hanging in there, and was a throwaway from SSK, where he wasn't lauded at all.
I'm sorry it sounds so dreary. I really don't mean to come down on our OL, ModAdmin, I'm just finally being pragmatic. I still think they can win it all, as we can compensate for a bottom-half OL, much like SSK compensates for theirs.
Optimistically, the hoggies can form a gestalt and overcome their individual weaker talent by becoming a cohesive unit that surpasses the sum of its parts. We've seen glimpses of this: the 2nd half in the TOR game, etc. If they have their best game with the best coaching with the best plan and a hot Zach then I firmly believe we can get to and win the cup with this group. But it doesn't change the reality of anything I've laid out.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 05, 2024, 03:15:56 PMAnd if there's one thing the Bombers have nailed since 2019 it's a very good offensive line. I'm sure they're working on it and projecting out to this off-season already. If you think you've noticed a decline I am pretty certain they have too. Right?
100% spot on. The whole league, including The Mafia, has seen our limitations. I'm sure KW already is formulating a plan to address it in FA/DP. In the meantime, teams' Ds are lovin' our no-longer-invincible OL and have plans to put Zach on his butt -- or worse.
What I'm most curious about, is who is the "worst", who needs to be demoted first? Or is it more than just 1 guy? We've cut or demoted underperforming OL before, back when we had a panoply of talent and too many bodies. It's not mean or rude or harsh to say we may need to do it again. It sucks, but that's the nature of the business.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 05, 2024, 04:33:40 PMKALRA, Ethan
Waterloo
MANU, Giovanni (currently Detroit Lions 3rd backup)
UBC
VLAHOGIANNIS, Michael
McGill
If some of these guys could materialize before week 1 2025, that would really help our hopper problem. But we need help soon. Can't wait until 2026.
Quote from: ModAdmin on November 05, 2024, 04:45:42 PM"Best in the West" is all I said. Never said the best in the CFL.
Might be true. BC's OL was looking pretty good to start the season. EDM's was looking better than ours at times in mid/late season. SSK's is ok, but riddled with injury, is vulnerable right now (hence Trevor always throwing it within 2s).
But compared to all the East teams, we may be the worst. TOR/MTL are impenetrable unless you have a top DL. HAM's was darn sharp when they started getting hot. Even OTT's, though not great, was looking stout (with Desjar).
We're used to priding ourselves on having the league-best OL. So many years we couldn't be touched.
Zach used to always praise the OL and note how clean they kept him in post-game pressers. Ya, it's been a looooooong time since he did that! He keeps his mouth shut about his OL most of the time now. 7 sacks in a critical game will do that to you.