Just some observations about his season: While he has not had a spectacular season he has made key plays in at least 3 games resulting in victories for the Bombers.
In one of his 1st games he scored an important TD. In another game he managed an important 1st down which resulted in Bombers being able to manage a winning FG.
Yesterday was the most obvious with his impressive return which swung momentum in our favour and allowed us to score a TD to close the gap. I have no doubt without that return we would have lost.
I don't think he's earning that much but I'd say his play has been consistent and he's made a difference when he needed to.
I'm not sure he'll be back in 2025 but he has a chance to get to and win a Grey Cup. Kudos to his effort in 2024.
I'd agree. His arrival coincided with us winning. His attitude and optimism is infectious and I can't help thinking he made a difference to the locker room.
Quote from: Blue In BC on October 27, 2024, 02:21:47 PMJust some observations about his season: While he has not had a spectacular season he has made key plays in at least 3 games resulting in victories for the Bombers.
In one of his 1st games he scored an important TD. In another game he managed an important 1st down which resulted in Bombers being able to manage a winning FG.
Yesterday was the most obvious with his impressive return which swung momentum in our favour and allowed us to score a TD to close the gap. I have no doubt without that return we would have lost.
I don't think he's earning that much but I'd say his play has been consistent and he's made a difference when he needed to.
I'm not sure he'll be back in 2025 but he has a chance to get to and win a Grey Cup. Kudos to his effort in 2024.
Agree, not likely Lucky will be back next year, too bad he could not have helped out more as a receiver when he had the chance, maybe in the playoffs. With Schoen and Woli healthy next season a few of the receivers that played yesterday will be relegated to backups once again, most likely Clercius and Wheatfall.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on October 27, 2024, 03:45:19 PMAgree, not likely Lucky will be back next year, too bad he could not have helped out more as a receiver when he had the chance, maybe in the playoffs. With Schoen and Woli healthy next season a few of the receivers that played yesterday will be relegated to backups once again, most likely Clercius and Wheatfall.
I'm not sure that Schoen will ever be the same player. It's also uncertain when he might even be available. His injury could extend beyond TC and he only signed a 1 year deal didn't he?
Woli had hip issues late in 2023 and then twice in 2024. He missed some time early and then again. I have no idea if he might still be ready for the play offs or whether this will be a career ending issue. It reminds me somewhat of the injury Ellington had in Winnipeg.
We can hope for the best, but it's all a TBD. Management will have a better idea but we aren't going to hear their view until we see what happens going into TC 2025.
Quote from: Blue In BC on October 27, 2024, 04:23:50 PMI'm not sure that Schoen will ever be the same player. It's also uncertain when he might even be available. His injury could extend beyond TC and he only signed a 1 year deal didn't he?
Woli had hip issues late in 2023 and then twice in 2024. He missed some time early and then again. I have no idea if he might still be ready for the play offs or whether this will be a career ending issue. It reminds me somewhat of the injury Ellington had in Winnipeg.
We can hope for the best, but it's all a TBD. Management will have a better idea but we aren't going to hear their view until we see what happens going into TC 2025.
I agree - I think Woli might be back but really not sure on Schoen. Might be time to move on with Schoen as he is a big ticket item when compared to Woli
Quote from: BBRT on October 27, 2024, 04:53:58 PMI agree - I think Woli might be back but really not sure on Schoen. Might be time to move on with Schoen as he is a big ticket item when compared to Woli
I think Schoen has earned the right to win his job back after the 2 season he put up on his ELC.
Whitehead came as advertised, a vetern presence that while has slowed helped us especially considering our injuries. Proud of him.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on October 27, 2024, 07:57:48 PMI think Schoen has earned the right to win his job back after the 2 season he put up on his ELC.
Earned the right. Sure not problem with that. It's a question of health and what his injury did to his ability to play at the same level. A contract that doesn't include a major advance payment without medical confirmation. That could lean towards games played and performance awards.
If he can play like he did previously we should sign him early before free agency. Team medical team will know more about that than us.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on October 27, 2024, 07:57:48 PMI think Schoen has earned the right to win his job back after the 2 season he put up on his ELC.
He's not going to "earn" a job anywhere. Assuming health, a team is going to have to offer him a very lucrative contract to sign him to their team.
Quote from: Blue In BC on October 27, 2024, 04:23:50 PMI'm not sure that Schoen will ever be the same player. It's also uncertain when he might even be available. His injury could extend beyond TC and he only signed a 1 year deal didn't he?
I'm not worried about Schoen's ability. He was never very fast. So one would think he'd have a better chance of regaining his middling speed. And it was never his speed that made him deadly anyhow.
The question on Schoen is can we possibly afford his SMS in '25? One could argue that putting all that huge money into the OL and DL would win us more games. However, maybe if Schoen had been in all year the OL problems would have been less painful? It's hard to say.
What might be nice is Schoen may take a bit of a discount to stay... maybe? He did cost us a lot with zero benefit this year. And now he might be marked as "injury prone", who knows. That said, I'm not sure Schoen feels a massive brotherhood with Winnipeg (yet) like some of the other guys. He may still be in the "mercenary" stage of his career. I'm not sure it's worth chasing him if he wants Kenny money again.
Whitehead understands FIFO as he's been here before. He's been a strong asset this season and I'd love to see him stick around for 2025 if it's feasible.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 28, 2024, 06:11:05 AMI'm not worried about Schoen's ability. He was never very fast. So one would think he'd have a better chance of regaining his middling speed. And it was never his speed that made him deadly anyhow.
The question on Schoen is can we possibly afford his SMS in '25? One could argue that putting all that huge money into the OL and DL would win us more games. However, maybe if Schoen had been in all year the OL problems would have been less painful? It's hard to say.
What might be nice is Schoen may take a bit of a discount to stay... maybe? He did cost us a lot with zero benefit this year. And now he might be marked as "injury prone", who knows. That said, I'm not sure Schoen feels a massive brotherhood with Winnipeg (yet) like some of the other guys. He may still be in the "mercenary" stage of his career. I'm not sure it's worth chasing him if he wants Kenny money again.
It wasn't about potentially losing any speed. It's about whether the integrity of the knee going to be limiting at all. Not every player regains complete form and confidence.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 28, 2024, 06:11:05 AMI'm not worried about Schoen's ability. He was never very fast. So one would think he'd have a better chance of regaining his middling speed. And it was never his speed that made him deadly anyhow.
The question on Schoen is can we possibly afford his SMS in '25? One could argue that putting all that huge money into the OL and DL would win us more games. However, maybe if Schoen had been in all year the OL problems would have been less painful? It's hard to say.
What might be nice is Schoen may take a bit of a discount to stay... maybe? He did cost us a lot with zero benefit this year. And now he might be marked as "injury prone", who knows. That said, I'm not sure Schoen feels a massive brotherhood with Winnipeg (yet) like some of the other guys. He may still be in the "mercenary" stage of his career. I'm not sure it's worth chasing him if he wants Kenny money again.
Schoen bent over backwards to re-sign with Wpg. and was overjoyed to do so, he accepted less than Lawler even after putting up better receiving numbers for 2 seasons. It doesn't mean Walters won't make a financial decision and move on as he did with multiple players last season, but it's unlikely to be Schoen's initiative to leave unless he gets handballed by a low offer.
2) Kenny Lawler, Winnipeg Blue Bombers (A)
Hard money: $285,000
Maximum value: $285,000
The two-time West Division all-star renegotiated his contract early this off-season to lower his cap hit from $310,000 to $285,000, collecting a $150,000 signing bonus in the process. He will also earn a $115,000 base salary, $13,800 in housing money, and $7,200 in travel money this season in Bomberland.
3) Dalton Schoen, Winnipeg Blue Bombers (A)
Hard money: $230,000
Maximum value: $230,000
The two-time CFL all-star received a $105,000 signing bonus to remain in Winnipeg this season after garnering a lot of attention from around the league in free agency. Schoen will also make $76,200 in salary, $35,000 in non-football-related services to the team, and $13,800 in housing money.
I don't think affording Schoen or signing Schoen will be an issue. The key to how long and how much will be his health and his recovery.
I do not think we will have an issue confirming the exact state of his health, I do not think he will pull an AH33 and demand a contract without a full medical assessment.
If he is 100%, he gets a new deal, on his terms. I think Kenny comes down a bit to make some room for others. We still have Wilson for another ELC year. I do think Biggie comes off the books, maybe Jefferson too, although a home GC makes those decisions harder on both sides. I guess a lot depends on the next 2 games.
I could swear Shoen signed a 2 year deal after no nfl team picked him up. I think some guaranteed money is involved too, but that may be year one and not year 2.
If he is smart he takes a dip
In salary next season just to prove he is fine and then clean up the year after in free agency. Right now he has NO leverage as a washed out season.
Quote from: theaardvark on October 28, 2024, 03:39:51 PMI don't think affording Schoen or signing Schoen will be an issue. The key to how long and how much will be his health and his recovery.
I do not think we will have an issue confirming the exact state of his health, I do not think he will pull an AH33 and demand a contract without a full medical assessment.
If he is 100%, he gets a new deal, on his terms. I think Kenny comes down a bit to make some room for others. We still have Wilson for another ELC year. I do think Biggie comes off the books, maybe Jefferson too, although a home GC makes those decisions harder on both sides. I guess a lot depends on the next 2 games.
How does it work when a player is still injured when their contract expires at the end of the season? Do they sit on the IR next season until they're fully recovered and then cut or re-signed or do they become FA's after the upcoming GC? These conditions would apply to both Schoen and Strev. next season.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on October 28, 2024, 08:16:00 PMHow does it work when a player is still injured when their contract expires at the end of the season? Do they sit on the IR next season until they're fully recovered and then cut or re-signed or do they become FA's after the upcoming GC? These conditions would apply to both Schoen and Strev. next season.
I think the team is responsible for medical stuff but not for any contract since it would have expired.
Quote from: BBRT on October 27, 2024, 04:53:58 PMI agree - I think Woli might be back but really not sure on Schoen. Might be time to move on with Schoen as he is a big ticket item when compared to Woli
Absolutely agree...no way we tie up big $$ on Schoen next year, and I'd be moving on for sure and not even consider re-signing him--too many recievers out there to be had for a fraction of the $$
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on October 28, 2024, 03:27:39 PMSchoen bent over backwards to re-sign with Wpg. and was overjoyed to do so, he accepted less than Lawler even after putting up better receiving numbers for 2 seasons.
I hope you're right! What we paid him is still big moolah: league top-5 for sure.
As for making less than Kenny, Kenny is still the better REC in terms of hands & circus, even if he didn't put up the numbers. Kenny was (probably still is) like a Burnham, SJ Green, or in-green Dressler. Schoen is more like... Milt? Someone give me some better analogies for Schoen...
Quote from: theaardvark on October 28, 2024, 03:39:51 PMIf he is 100%, he gets a new deal, on his terms. I think Kenny comes down a bit to make some room for others. We still have Wilson for another ELC year. I do think Biggie comes off the books, maybe Jefferson too, although a home GC makes those decisions harder on both sides. I guess a lot depends on the next 2 games.
No way Willie is cut before the home '25 GC. Willie may take big concessions to stay here, I don't think he ever wants to leave. Same with Biggie, and I think the team will extend an olive branch for optics.
Same might apply to Fatboi. Certain players may be deemed to have "earned" the right to celebrate the home GC year, unless they are clearly useless. We might even sign some of the past-their-due-date guys, AR them for a game, then 6GIR them all year so they still get to get a ring and be on the sidelines -- if there's no bonus money, there's near-zero SMS hit.
The tough, nasty GM stuff will mostly wait until after 2025. And most players who "should" go will probably self-retire anyhow.
Quote from: dd on October 28, 2024, 10:58:09 PMAbsolutely agree...no way we tie up big $$ on Schoen next year, and I'd be moving on for sure and not even consider re-signing him--too many recievers out there to be had for a fraction of the $$
If you mean our AR, IR and PR... we still are lacking. If Schoen walks, put Pokey in his place, as he's legit. But who takes Bailey's old spot? Wheatie clearly isn't there yet, give him another year on PR to develop or cut him.
To me the optimal lineup is:
Pokey Kenny Demski Schoen Woli/Emperor
If Kenny & Schoen can make concessions to compensate for their off year this year, then we could have a top corps for slightly less $$ than 2024. That would work! If they want
more money, then someone walks.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 29, 2024, 06:36:45 AMSomeone give me some better analogies for Schoen...
Schoen is his own guy. What he does better than anyone is having that sense of going to where Zach wants him to be on broken plays. That's his brand. Would he work as well somewhere else? Unknown at this point.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on October 28, 2024, 08:16:00 PMHow does it work when a player is still injured when their contract expires at the end of the season? Do they sit on the IR next season until they're fully recovered and then cut or re-signed or do they become FA's after the upcoming GC? These conditions would apply to both Schoen and Strev. next season.
Pretty sure that the contract expires, making them a FA, but that rehab responsibilities continue until they sign a new contract or a certain time (I think 1 year?) expires. If someone wants to sign them injured, they are free to and that releases the original team from rehab responsibilities.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 29, 2024, 06:36:45 AMI hope you're right! What we paid him is still big moolah: league top-5 for sure.
As for making less than Kenny, Kenny is still the better REC in terms of hands & circus, even if he didn't put up the numbers. Kenny was (probably still is) like a Burnham, SJ Green, or in-green Dressler. Schoen is more like... Milt? Someone give me some better analogies for Schoen...
Brian Kelly.
Schoen will come back and be very good for us and I would love to see him here long term. Some uncertainty about how he heals but he is young and likely will be fine as long as there are no setbacks in rehab or reinjury.
Quote from: J5V on October 29, 2024, 11:48:58 PMBrian Kelly.
This guy who played in EDM?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Kelly_(wide_receiver)
I don't remember many players from that era, as I was a kid who didn't pay much attention to someone not wearing blue & gold.
But I'll take your word for it!
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 30, 2024, 02:29:33 AMThis guy who played in EDM?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Kelly_(wide_receiver)
I don't remember many players from that era, as I was a kid who didn't pay much attention to someone not wearing blue & gold.
But I'll take your word for it!
Well, maybe showing my age there with that reference but that's exactly who Shoen reminds me of.
Brian Kelly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDvstVdi9-I)
Quote from: J5V on October 30, 2024, 01:12:06 PMWell, maybe showing my age there with that reference but that's exactly who Shoen reminds me of.
Brian Kelly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDvstVdi9-I)
Interesting comparison. I'm not sure I entirely agree but it is a valid thought. Brian Kelly was a precise route runner and faster IIRC. I don't think he was as physical as Schoen.
I'd suggest Ben Cahoon in Montreal might be a comparison as well. He was very tough to defend and always a guy looked at to make a 2nd down conversion over the middle.
Quote from: Blueforlife on October 30, 2024, 12:03:21 AMSchoen will come back and be very good for us and I would love to see him here long term. Some uncertainty about how he heals but he is young and likely will be fine as long as there are no setbacks in rehab or reinjury.
The guy was hurt last year, and hurt all of this year---do you see the trend??? if he comes back, and if we sign him, I hope its based on games he dresses for, but he will most certainly be hurt again.
We'd be best served getting younger, cheaper help just like we've done this year, turn the page.
Quote from: dd on October 30, 2024, 09:57:24 PMThe guy was hurt last year, and hurt all of this year---do you see the trend??? if he comes back, and if we sign him, I hope its based on games he dresses for, but he will most certainly be hurt again.
We'd be best served getting younger, cheaper help just like we've done this year, turn the page.
Dude, you're describing most of the team. You only want to re-sign football players who have NEVER been injured?
Quote from: Blue In BC on October 30, 2024, 01:38:41 PMI'd suggest Ben Cahoon in Montreal might be a comparison as well. He was very tough to defend and always a guy looked at to make a 2nd down conversion over the middle.
I was thinking Cahoon too, but then Cahoon would make these diving Dressler-esque catches that Schoen would never attempt or complete. But if you take away the circus stuff, Cahoon would be a perfect match. Similar body type, similar lack of speed, similar high football IQ, etc.
Quote from: dd on October 30, 2024, 09:57:24 PMThe guy was hurt last year, and hurt all of this year---do you see the trend??? if he comes back, and if we sign him, I hope its based on games he dresses for, but he will most certainly be hurt again.
Very possibly. At the very least we can't be handing him another $100k signing bonus because that gets no SMS recovery when he 6-games. You can still pay him bigly, but it has to be 100% salary so we can protect the SMS. He still gets all his money even if injured all year, but we don't have to care because we can re-spend all that SMS on someone else.
What we did this season with Schoen/Kenny bonuses was a big poop-show of epic proportions.
Quote from: dd on October 30, 2024, 09:57:24 PMThe guy was hurt last year, and hurt all of this year---do you see the trend??? if he comes back, and if we sign him, I hope its based on games he dresses for, but he will most certainly be hurt again.
We'd be best served getting younger, cheaper help just like we've done this year, turn the page.
Disagree, he is an excellent player and a valuable asset to this organization
I generally would believe in finding a younger cheaper option but special talents are worth it imo
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 30, 2024, 10:09:25 PMVery possibly. At the very least we can't be handing him another $100k signing bonus because that gets no SMS recovery when he 6-games. You can still pay him bigly, but it has to be 100% salary so we can protect the SMS. He still gets all his money even if injured all year, but we don't have to care because we can re-spend all that SMS on someone else.
What we did this season with Schoen/Kenny bonuses was a big poop-show of epic proportions.
Not sure what his bonus structure was last year, but there would have been no reason not to give him one then, he's been very healthy, missing only 2 games in 2 years.
Fitting him into the $SMS might have needed the tax break of signing bonuses, if he lives in one of "those" states.
Walters / MOS are going to have an even tougher time this off season. We do have ELC guys that have stepped up, and while letting Sheed walk last year left a hole to be filled, any of the the top WR's could walk and we already have the replacement on the roster. Any five of Demski, Lawler, Wolitarsky, Schoen, Wilson, Clercius, Lucky would be a solid corps. Without having to rely on finding a next man up, although there are already guys like Wheatfall and Case identified for backup spots.
Quote from: theaardvark on November 01, 2024, 03:03:29 PMNot sure what his bonus structure was last year, but there would have been no reason not to give him one then, he's been very healthy, missing only 2 games in 2 years.
Fitting him into the $SMS might have needed the tax break of signing bonuses, if he lives in one of "those" states.
Walters / MOS are going to have an even tougher time this off season. We do have ELC guys that have stepped up, and while letting Sheed walk last year left a hole to be filled, any of the the top WR's could walk and we already have the replacement on the roster. Any five of Demski, Lawler, Wolitarsky, Schoen, Wilson, Clercius, Lucky would be a solid corps. Without having to rely on finding a next man up, although there are already guys like Wheatfall and Case identified for backup spots.
I have no problem with giving any import early money to achieve the advantage of a tax benefit for American players.
OTOH, I feel that how it is calculated against the SMS in the event of an injury needs to be changed.
Example ( not sure of how Rourke's salary breaks down ). He's due to get $750K more or less. If he's injured in TC and lost for the season, all of it is exempt on the 6 game IR.
OTOH, if he gets $350K of his salary in early money, in the same example, only $350K is sheltered on the 6 game IR.
Now we all know this formula applies to every team so in that sense it's the same risk for every team.
However, what the heck is the point of what amounts to a penalty to the team in trying to create that tax advantage? It potentially hamstrings a team.
Need the new commish to change how this works.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 01, 2024, 03:24:08 PMI have no problem with giving any import early money to achieve the advantage of a tax benefit for American players.
OTOH, I feel that how it is calculated against the SMS in the event of an injury needs to be changed.
Example ( not sure of how Rourke's salary breaks down ). He's due to get $750K more or less. If he's injured in TC and lost for the season, all of it is exempt on the 6 game IR.
OTOH, if he gets $350K of his salary in early money, in the same example, only $350K is sheltered on the 6 game IR.
Now we all know this formula applies to every team so in that sense it's the same risk for every team.
However, what the heck is the point of what amounts to a penalty to the team in trying to create that tax advantage? It potentially hamstrings a team.
Need the new commish to change how this works.
There is a tax advantage in some cases for bonus over salary. In the case of players that can take advantage of that tax advantage, you can pay them less overall $SMS by taking advantage of this loophole.
The downside is, if they get injured, that $SMS is blown.
So, you have to decide if signing the player at a "savings" is worth the risk...
Quote from: theaardvark on November 01, 2024, 03:57:28 PMThere is a tax advantage in some cases for bonus over salary. In the case of players that can take advantage of that tax advantage, you can pay them less overall $SMS by taking advantage of this loophole.
The downside is, if they get injured, that $SMS is blown.
So, you have to decide if signing the player at a "savings" is worth the risk...
I said that. I understand that.
The point is there is no point in creating a potential SMS issue for a team if there is any injury. It doesn't matter if every team takes that risk.
The point is why is it necessary for them to take that risk?
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 01, 2024, 05:14:49 PMI said that. I understand that.
The point is there is no point in creating a potential SMS issue for a team if there is any injury. It doesn't matter if every team takes that risk.
The point is why is it necessary for them to take that risk?
Because the Bombers aren't the only CFL team players can play for and keeping and retaining talent is a 365 day a year competition.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 01, 2024, 05:14:49 PMI said that. I understand that.
The point is there is no point in creating a potential SMS issue for a team if there is any injury. It doesn't matter if every team takes that risk.
The point is why is it necessary for them to take that risk?
That's exactly the point. If you want to scam the system using tax loopholes, you should have to have a downside to that advantage. One team may be willing to make the offer and take the risk, while another team won't. If they all get the same "protection", then everyone can make the same deals. Its a dynamic that makes a GM earn his pay.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 01, 2024, 05:16:46 PMBecause the Bombers aren't the only CFL team players can play for and keeping and retaining talent is a 365 day a year competition.
The Bombers aren't the only team that can offer the same or more money, whether they use the tax loophole for imports either.
Signing any player for a large salary has risks. Performance versus salary always comes up as we see players under perform or over perform.
Canadian players get advance money although likely a smaller % of their total salary since there is no tax advantage. It falls more into guaranteed money I suppose.
Most players aren't $200K plus in salary with large amounts of early money. I seriously doubt that has any influence over where a player chooses to sign.
As an example Houston signed in Calgary for $200K IIRC. I don't know how much he got in advance but I doubt he got $100K of it in advance. The real question was there a number of teams that were going to be willing to pay him $200K?
The American tax advantage is just an interesting loophole. It could increase or decrease with whichever party forms the new government.
Quote from: theaardvark on November 01, 2024, 06:25:04 PMThat's exactly the point. If you want to scam the system using tax loopholes, you should have to have a downside to that advantage. One team may be willing to make the offer and take the risk, while another team won't. If they all get the same "protection", then everyone can make the same deals. Its a dynamic that makes a GM earn his pay.
I wouldn't call it a scam. As you pointed out everyone can make the same deals. It's a known fact that some players choose to accept less money to stay with their team or even their choice when they leave. Players consider chances of play off money and just general success in playing on a good team as part of the formula.
Teams are allowed to negotiate with players before the actual free agency starts. That allows the existing team to review / consider whether to amend their offer. Players change teams and teams decide what they are willing to pay and can afford to pay. Note that rule is fairly recent and previously would have been considered tampering. At the very least it would have been considered confidential.
Determining any players salary is part of the entirety of building the roster. We've seen some players leave for " wild " money offered elsewhere. It's not all a result of bonus / early money.
Obviously there is disagreement in my argument but I've made my view clear. I fully believe it should be changed because it potentially does more harm than it does benefit.
The SMS is intended to create an equal playing field. Suggesting taking an additional risk is equivalent of the opposite even though it's currently within the rules IMO.
Using the tax loophole to give a player a net salary increase over another offer of more money with less upfront is literally scamming the system.
You do it for an advantage, and take the risk of getting Schoen the issue with it.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 30, 2024, 10:06:40 PMI was thinking Cahoon too, but then Cahoon would make these diving Dressler-esque catches that Schoen would never attempt or complete. But if you take away the circus stuff, Cahoon would be a perfect match. Similar body type, similar lack of speed, similar high football IQ, etc.
Schoen reminds me of Rocky Dipietro from the old Ticats days, big inside receiver who catches the ball consistently in traffic and takes hits. I don't recall Rocky being as injured as Schoen has been though..
Quote from: dd on November 01, 2024, 11:13:59 PMSchoen reminds me of Rocky Dipietro from the old Ticats days, big inside receiver who catches the ball consistently in traffic and takes hits. I don't recall Rocky being as injured as Schoen has been though..
Rocky played in 36 games in his first three years, and 10 TDs. DS83 37 games, 26 TDs.
Quote from: Pigskin on November 02, 2024, 02:32:30 AMRocky played in 36 games in his first three years, and 10 TDs. DS83 37 games, 26 TDs.
I remember Rocky and he wasn't at all similar to Schoen in any way that I can recall, the comparison is baffling.
Quote from: Blue In BC on October 30, 2024, 01:38:41 PMInteresting comparison. I'm not sure I entirely agree but it is a valid thought. Brian Kelly was a precise route runner and faster IIRC. I don't think he was as physical as Schoen.
I'd suggest Ben Cahoon in Montreal might be a comparison as well. He was very tough to defend and always a guy looked at to make a 2nd down conversion over the middle.
I thought of Cahoon also. The other one that came to mind was Andy Fantuz.
Quote from: bunker on November 02, 2024, 03:15:40 AMI thought of Cahoon also. The other one that came to mind was Andy Fantuz.
Fantuz might be the best one I've heard
Maybe why Zach loves Schoen so much.
What are you guys smoking.?
Schoen will unlikely return. His knee like Strevlor, is broke. The rigors of football won't allow it. Woli has already been replaced. Same as Schoen.
Bombers will probably retain the ancient O line for the Grey Cup at home.
They will also likely pick up some free agents. The last hurrah.
If smart the bombers would go after the guy in Montreal.
Quote from: theaardvark on November 01, 2024, 08:49:26 PMUsing the tax loophole to give a player a net salary increase over another offer of more money with less upfront is literally scamming the system.
You do it for an advantage, and take the risk of getting Schoen the issue with it.
Every team can make the same offer with or without the tax advantage. If everybody can do the same thing it's not a scam or advantage.
Not every team will have the same interest or need of a player at a specific position. Teams may choose to spend their cash on improvements elsewhere on the roster.
Teams lose Canadian players as well. At some point teams decide how much is too much for their team and / or have the next man up in place.
Quote from: theaardvark on November 01, 2024, 03:03:29 PMNot sure what his bonus structure was last year, but there would have been no reason not to give him one then, he's been very healthy, missing only 2 games in 2 years.
Fitting him into the $SMS might have needed the tax break of signing bonuses, if he lives in one of "those" states.
Walters / MOS are going to have an even tougher time this off season. We do have ELC guys that have stepped up, and while letting Sheed walk last year left a hole to be filled, any of the the top WR's could walk and we already have the replacement on the roster. Any five of Demski, Lawler, Wolitarsky, Schoen, Wilson, Clercius, Lucky would be a solid corps. Without having to rely on finding a next man up, although there are already guys like Wheatfall and Case identified for backup spots.
Did Rashid Bailey get picked up by someone after the Argos cut him? If he was, sure not really not in any CFL news since then. Another free agent option possibly.
Quote from: ichabod_crane on November 02, 2024, 09:24:48 PMDid Rashid Bailey get picked up by someone after the Argos cut him? If he was, sure not really not in any CFL news since then. Another free agent option possibly.
He was on the Redblack PR.
Quote from: ichabod_crane on November 02, 2024, 09:24:48 PMDid Rashid Bailey get picked up by someone after the Argos cut him? If he was, sure not really not in any CFL news since then. Another free agent option possibly.
Say what you want about Sheed... now that the season is over, ask yourselves: would Sheed have been better than Wheatfall? Wheatfall is clearly our last-read IMP. He hasn't done too much, and is miffing Zach now.
I think it's clear now the extra $30k to retain Sheed instead of Wheatie would have been worth it, even if it meant we were over cap.
Hindsight... but still.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 03, 2024, 01:06:52 AMSay what you want about Sheed... now that the season is over, ask yourselves: would Sheed have been better than Wheatfall? Wheatfall is clearly our last-read IMP. He hasn't done too much, and is miffing Zach now.
I think it's clear now the extra $30k to retain Sheed instead of Wheatie would have been worth it, even if it meant we were over cap.
Hindsight... but still.
Assuming all our receivers stayed healthy - we'd be comparing Sheed to Wilson, not Wheatfall.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 03, 2024, 01:06:52 AMSay what you want about Sheed... now that the season is over, ask yourselves: would Sheed have been better than Wheatfall? Wheatfall is clearly our last-read IMP. He hasn't done too much, and is miffing Zach now.
I think it's clear now the extra $30k to retain Sheed instead of Wheatie would have been worth it, even if it meant we were over cap.
Hindsight... but still.
When Sheed was not signed, our starting 5 was Schoen, Lawler, Demski, Wolitarski and random ELC guy. Who ends up being Wilson.
Losing Schoen and Woli meant hitting the DC, and Wheatfall filled in until Lucky came in as a returner + WR. Case was there too. Clercius took Woli's spot rather nicely considering he's a rookie.
After Schoen and Oliviera signed, Sheed was a luxury that was not in the cards. And with Wilson, Clercius and Lucky filling in admirably, hard to make that "rehire".
I wanted Sheed back, for sure, but I get the roster management decisions.
Quote from: theaardvark on November 03, 2024, 05:48:48 PMWhen Sheed was not signed, our starting 5 was Schoen, Lawler, Demski, Wolitarski and random ELC guy. Who ends up being Wilson.
Losing Schoen and Woli meant hitting the DC, and Wheatfall filled in until Lucky came in as a returner + WR. Case was there too. Clercius took Woli's spot rather nicely considering he's a rookie.
After Schoen and Oliviera signed, Sheed was a luxury that was not in the cards. And with Wilson, Clercius and Lucky filling in admirably, hard to make that "rehire".
I wanted Sheed back, for sure, but I get the roster management decisions.
So now that Ottawa is OUT, does Sheed become a FA on the practice roster. Maybe he comes back next season with a reality check.
Quote from: ichabod_crane on November 03, 2024, 06:30:22 PMSo now that Ottawa is OUT, does Sheed become a FA on the practice roster. Maybe he comes back next season with a reality check.
Nah, this season was his reality check, he was doing well on the Argos and they still cut him. I think it comes down to his personality being hard to accommodate.
Quote from: ichabod_crane on November 03, 2024, 06:30:22 PMSo now that Ottawa is OUT, does Sheed become a FA on the practice roster. Maybe he comes back next season with a reality check.
If Schoen is not resigned, or Lawler, or even Lucky and Sheed wants to come back, there could be a spot for him, IF MOS wants him.
I don't know why Toronto cut him, they said $SMS, or why he didn't get on the field in OTT, we have no idea what his fitness/mental status is, and with another year on the books, its not likely better.
He had a reality check last year, and another this year. Even if both Lawler and Schoen move on, it might be a stretch for him returning.
Quote from: Jesse on November 03, 2024, 02:03:46 PMAssuming all our receivers stayed healthy - we'd be comparing Sheed to Wilson, not Wheatfall.
Except Schoen was knocked out in, what, game 2? Bailey was available mid-season... we still could have made a move. And then again late-season with him rotting on a PR.
If we assumed we had a gem in Pokey, then Wheatfall was still our only contingency plan if/when an IMP got injured.
Yes, I understand the difficulty in hiring Bailey before week 1 @$120k and then putting him on the PR whilst starting an ELC Pokey... Still, is there some law that says PR RECs have to only be ELC guys? What do other teams do?
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 04, 2024, 01:15:32 AMExcept Schoen was knocked out in, what, game 2? Bailey was available mid-season... we still could have made a move. And then again late-season with him rotting on a PR.
If we assumed we had a gem in Pokey, then Wheatfall was still our only contingency plan if/when an IMP got injured.
Yes, I understand the difficulty in hiring Bailey before week 1 @$120k and then putting him on the PR whilst starting an ELC Pokey... Still, is there some law that says PR RECs have to only be ELC guys? What do other teams do?
They don't employ 3 of the top 5 paid receivers in the CFL!
Let's flip this the other way, wonder if bailey regrets signing with the Argos for a paltry $30k, only to be cut and end up on the dead black practice roster, wonder if he regrets thinking the grass was greener elsewhere. Stay here, be the #4 receiver and play on a winning team. He never saw the extra money he signed for because he got cut and the pew rice roster pays absolute peanuts. Shoulda left well enough alone
And he won't be back here next year, that ship has left the port and ain't com8ng back.BB have moved on and rightfully so
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 04, 2024, 02:51:29 AMThey don't employ 3 of the top 5 paid receivers in the CFL!
Touche! It's all trade-offs. Many decent teams have a crap REC corps on paper (e.g. SSK, TOR) but they are doing very well. TOR has a great OL, and probably spent a ton on it. SSK, probably more than us when they had Yoshi. Now, not so much AFAIK.
Maybe it's as simple as blowing more of the wad on OL and less on the RECs. Problem is, we let the great guys walk so now we have to achieve
acquisition rather than just
retention!
Quote from: dd on November 04, 2024, 03:02:03 AMLet's flip this the other way, wonder if bailey regrets signing with the Argos for a paltry $30k, only to be cut and end up on the dead black practice roster, wonder if he regrets thinking the grass was greener elsewhere. Stay here, be the #4 receiver and play on a winning team. He never saw the extra money he signed for because he got cut and the pew rice roster pays absolute peanuts. Shoulda left well enough alone
And he won't be back here next year, that ship has left the port and ain't com8ng back.BB have moved on and rightfully so
To be clear, it was not Bailey's choice to leave the Bombers after last season, they did not offer him a contract during FA or reach out to him, same with a number of his teammates such as Jeffcoat. Bailey was contemplating retirement when he signed with the Argos.
He is still a good player. I never met him. Is he a jerk?
None that it matters. In the long run he can get started with a real job. Sometimes it's hard for some players, when that's all they have known all their lives.
He was an awesome blocker and fifth receiver for us.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 04, 2024, 04:12:57 PMTo be clear, it was not Bailey's choice to leave the Bombers after last season, they did not offer him a contract during FA or reach out to him
KW gave an open invitation before/around TC to every starter we let walk in FA, it's still on video on the site somewhere: "if you'll play for ELC call us we'll take a look" (paraphrasing).
He didn't want to insult Bailey/Jeffcoat by giving them offers of ELC directly. So he put out an open invitation to everyone the best way he could without singling anyone out.
That extra $ for Brady and the high Zach, Kenny, Schoen contracts really limited our options.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 05, 2024, 12:00:31 AMKW gave an open invitation before/around TC to every starter we let walk in FA, it's still on video on the site somewhere: "if you'll play for ELC call us we'll take a look" (paraphrasing).
He didn't want to insult Bailey/Jeffcoat by giving them offers of ELC directly. So he put out an open invitation to everyone the best way he could without singling anyone out.
That extra $ for Brady and the high Zach, Kenny, Schoen contracts really limited our options.
Walters was talking to the media, the Bombers did not reach out to their agents, both have stated this in interviews and I see no reason for them to lie.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 05, 2024, 12:00:31 AMKW gave an open invitation before/around TC to every starter we let walk in FA, it's still on video on the site somewhere: "if you'll play for ELC call us we'll take a look" (paraphrasing).
He didn't want to insult Bailey/Jeffcoat by giving them offers of ELC directly. So he put out an open invitation to everyone the best way he could without singling anyone out.
That extra $ for Brady and the high Zach, Kenny, Schoen contracts really limited our options.
Why would we offer Jeffcoat—stud DE, an ELC?? We have never replaced him and it's going to cost us big time, either this week or next
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 05, 2024, 01:40:01 AMWalters was talking to the media, the Bombers did not reach out to their agents, both have stated this in interviews and I see no reason for them to lie.
I didn't say otherwise. KW
did say "call us if you want to play for ELC". If you watch it again it's like he's talking directly to Bailey & Grant & Jeffcoat.
If any of those guys has their agents call WFC (not the other way around) and say "we'll take the deal for ELC" then 100% those guys would be with us today. Zero doubt. They may be on PR or IR, sure, but they'd be here.
Quote from: dd on November 05, 2024, 01:42:31 AMWhy would we offer Jeffcoat—stud DE, an ELC?? We have never replaced him and it's going to cost us big time, either this week or next
Garbutt?
Quote from: J5V on November 09, 2024, 03:17:23 AMGarbutt?
C mon man, not even close to same calibre of pressure off the edge. Jeffcoat was an impact player that changed our front 7 pressure instantly. We haven't come close to replacing that
Spend Schoens money elsewhere
Quote from: dd on November 09, 2024, 04:13:27 AMC mon man, not even close to same calibre of pressure off the edge. Jeffcoat was an impact player that changed our front 7 pressure instantly. We haven't come close to replacing that
You're right. Even in the first year, Jeffcoat was a monster with 7 sacks. Some positions are more draft and develop"able" and I always say defensive end is one of those where you walk on and make an impact or you don't.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 09, 2024, 01:15:16 PMYou're right. Even in the first year, Jeffcoat was a monster with 7 sacks. Some positions are more draft and develop"able" and I always say defensive end is one of those where you walk on and make an impact or you don't.
You should see flashes in year one. Then the good ones have a jump in year 2.
If they don't make the jump in year 2, my expectations disappear.
Quote from: Jesse on November 09, 2024, 02:21:36 PMYou should see flashes in year one. Then the good ones have a jump in year 2.
If they don't make the jump in year 2, my expectations disappear.
Yeah. Fair. You've got to learn your responsibilities and round out technique at the CFL level for a lot of those guys but it's such an athletic spot. You've kind of either got it or you don't, in my opinion. Feels a bit like a KR/PR. You don't spend years developing those guys.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 09, 2024, 02:30:46 PMYeah. Fair. You've got to learn your responsibilities and round out technique at the CFL level for a lot of those guys but it's such an athletic spot. You've kind of either got it or you don't, in my opinion. Feels a bit like a KR/PR. You don't spend years developing those guys.
Yes, it's disappointing. We knew going into TC that our DL was an issue. IMO we failed in finding players that will stick in 2025 as starters. Maybe as roster changes in free agency occur, we find some SMS money to improve the DL. That said, it's not where we normally spend our big SMS money.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 09, 2024, 02:58:53 PMYes, it's disappointing. We knew going into TC that our DL was an issue. IMO we failed in finding players that will stick in 2025 as starters. Maybe as roster changes in free agency occur, we find some SMS money to improve the DL. That said, it's not where we normally spend our big SMS money.
Yeah, we've just been rotating through guys for this entire run. It's Willie and was Jeffcoat and no one else has been able to stick.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 09, 2024, 02:58:53 PMYes, it's disappointing. We knew going into TC that our DL was an issue. IMO we failed in finding players that will stick in 2025 as starters. Maybe as roster changes in free agency occur, we find some SMS money to improve the DL. That said, it's not where we normally spend our big SMS money.
It will be interesting to see if Younger sticks with the 3-man rush concept next year or reverts to a more conventional approach and bring in numerous ferocious pass rushers. Funny they haven't given a 3-4 defence much consideration this season, which is the surprise method of improving the pass rush. With a plethora of good LB types on the team, that would be an interesting concept to explore.
Quote from: Jesse on November 09, 2024, 03:41:40 PMYeah, we've just been rotating through guys for this entire run. It's Willie and was Jeffcoat and no one else has been able to stick.
Thomas
I have 100% faith in Walters and the entire scouting staff. We have weathered 5 years of being at the top, losing players to the NFL or other teams, or to injury, and yet, we are Grey Cup favourites yet again.
Salary cap, losing top players to injury, and we find gems.
Coaches that excel have stuck around, as have core players that might have gotten more elsewhere.
The opportunity for the word dynasty happens far infrequently, but when it happens, it happens from the top down. Wise choices in drafting, in FA signings and especially in scouting don't happen by accident. Well, sometimes a happy accident happens, but most often, there is a reason good players happen.
Quote from: J5V on November 09, 2024, 03:17:23 AMGarbutt?
He hasn't done too much in-season, but man did Garbutt look great in the WDF. He had some crazy speed and power and was doing some great block-shedding from hoggies to tackle the RBs!! I was very impressed. If he keeps that up he could be a keeper... and he's a NAT? Awesome.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 11, 2024, 09:55:01 PMHe hasn't done too much in-season, but man did Garbutt look great in the WDF. He had some crazy speed and power and was doing some great block-shedding from hoggies to tackle the RBs!! I was very impressed. If he keeps that up he could be a keeper... and he's a NAT? Awesome.
Garbutt is not a national (born in Virginia and played his college ball at Virginia Tech) but he did have a pretty good game on Saturday.
I think Fox has turned out to be OK as a DT, and if my eyes are still working I think he put in some work on the Jumbo team for short yardage, too.