Did we bring Lucky Whitehead in just for kick returns? At the time we signed him, we were running dangerously short on WR's and he fit the system great! I thought we could use him on jet sweeps and crossing/underneath routes. He is not a very talented returner. It's the most frustrating thing to watch him let the punt bounce twice before he catches it. Sometimes it makes sense to let it bounce but there are times where no one is around and he waits for guys to get closer.
Kody Case I think could fill the Whitehead role very well of KR and back up WR. He would also have the potential to crack the roster next season.
Whitehead:
Kick returns - 20.9 yard average on 17 attempts
Punt returns - 10.2 yard average on 35 attempts
Kody Case:
Kick returns - 25.2 yard average on 6 attempts
Punt returns - 10.5 yard average on 24 attempts
I don't really care how the Bombers spend their money if they are under the salary cap, but I just feel like the talents Lucky has are not being put to use.
Interesting numbers. Case is a slightly more efficient kick router and punt returns are a wash. Lucky has a big advantage of being a plug and play back up receiver though and in the CFL's small roster set up that is very helpful. I think they will go a different direction at returner next year but Lucky's been good enough and a helpful receiver as well. Makes it hard for Case if since he's not substantially better.
Close enough that I would go with the veteran. However I still feel the problem is not returner. If you watch for potential paths to open space there just doesn't seem to be any. Be that coaching or players, I do not know.
Quote from: Waffler on October 10, 2024, 02:57:09 PMClose enough that I would go with the veteran. However I still feel the problem is not returner. If you watch for potential paths to open space there just doesn't seem to be any. Be that coaching or players, I do not know.
That is probably a big part of it, but we have seen that having an elite returner (or RB) can make mediocre blocking look good!
This is not really a problem, but I would personally like to see what we have in Case rather than trot out Lucky.
I think Whitehead's versatility benefits the roster more than anything.
And with the receiving corps now mostly healthy, he's a luxury on offense as a potential plug-and-play piece, while also still contributing on special teams.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on October 10, 2024, 02:46:57 PMInteresting numbers. Case is a slightly more efficient kick router and punt returns are a wash. Lucky has a big advantage of being a plug and play back up receiver though and in the CFL's small roster set up that is very helpful. I think they will go a different direction at returner next year but Lucky's been good enough and a helpful receiver as well. Makes it hard for Case if since he's not substantially better.
That's fair but they haven't used him really as a WR (but I agree that they should more). He has 3 catches on 4 targets for 17 yards over the last 6 games.
I don't know that Case is substantially better as a returner but he is better without doubt. Shouldn't we be putting our best players on the field?
Quote from: LXTSN on October 10, 2024, 03:06:18 PMShouldn't we be putting our best players on the field?
I think they're doing exactly that already.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on October 10, 2024, 03:08:07 PMI think they're doing exactly that already.
If you feel that Whitehead is performing better in his role than Case would, that you're right! That's just the point we disagree on.
Quote from: LXTSN on October 10, 2024, 04:40:38 PMIf you feel that Whitehead is performing better in his role than Case would, that you're right! That's just the point we disagree on.
Case hasn't shown anything yet that would make me believe different, but the position isn't just returner, it's back-up receiver. And if our offensive struggles for much of this year has shown us anything, it's really nice having a vet that can plug in, as opposed to putting a fourth rookie into the receiving line-up.
Quote from: LXTSN on October 10, 2024, 04:40:38 PMIf you feel that Whitehead is performing better in his role than Case would, that you're right! That's just the point we disagree on.
Apples to apples, I think it's reasonable to conclude that Whitehead is the better option. The difference in terms of stats on returns is negligible, especially when weighed against his versatility and experience.
Maybe Case improves and becomes the better option on returns next season or later. In the meantime, I can see why the team continues to go with Whitehead.
As aomeone previously mentioned.
8-0 since Whilethead took over PR/KR duties...
Quote from: theaardvark on October 10, 2024, 05:07:25 PMAs aomeone previously mentioned.
8-0 since Whilethead took over PR/KR duties...
(https://y.yarn.co/ddfd8b5e-6238-474c-a042-c917efbb1be1_text.gif)
"I think Mike's an awesome leader," head coach Mike O'Shea
said of Miller. "The guys, they'll do anything for him. Our cover
team, they are **** good — they play with a lot of speed and
physicality — and the return game is still developing. They're
still working on making sure they can put all the instructions in
place."
"We're getting the yards that are available. We'd like to create
a little more and probably spring a little more but I think we're
getting the yards that are available."
-Free Press
It's everybody, not the returner alone.
Quote from: LXTSN on October 10, 2024, 03:06:18 PMThat's fair but they haven't used him really as a WR (but I agree that they should more). He has 3 catches on 4 targets for 17 yards over the last 6 games.
I don't know that Case is substantially better as a returner but he is better without doubt. Shouldn't we be putting our best players on the field?
Seems to me Lucky is better from the inside SB position, hit him with short, quick passes and let him pick up YAC. Wilson, Clercius, Wheatfall and Lawler can take the outside spots.
Maybe it's been mentioned before, but I would like to see us go wide on kick returns a little more often. We have a penchant for running returns up the gut a very high percentage of the time.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on October 10, 2024, 03:02:42 PMI think Whitehead's versatility benefits the roster more than anything.
And with the receiving corps now mostly healthy, he's a luxury on offense as a potential plug-and-play piece, while also still contributing on special teams.
That's it. Lucky's a no-fumble returner who has a remote possibility of breaking one. But more importantly, he's a legit REC who can hurt opponents. Sure, his hands suck, but it you get the ball to him while he's facing you, he'll make the catch. And he's one great decoy on the go route because DBs have to respect his speed: great for clearing out the field for Kenny et al.
And a mature vet REC won't make the rookie mistakes. You can't discount the importance of this at this stage.
Also, don't forget that to get Case in you would have to bench Lucky. It's not like we have AR space for both... So you have to look at the whole package.
There is no one else I'd rather dress from our PR right now than Lucky. (Everyone's forgetting the pain that was Mitchell we kept dressing before Lucky was signed...)
Quote from: LXTSN on October 10, 2024, 03:06:18 PMThat's fair but they haven't used him really as a WR (but I agree that they should more). He has 3 catches on 4 targets for 17 yards over the last 6 games.
Are you conveniently forgetting the TD Lucky got that broke open an important game, his very first game back on the AR? Wasn't that the first TD Zach threw all year? That's the play that finally got Zach out of his funk.
I bet his catch/TD to snaps ratio is pretty good on our O. He doesn't see the field much, so his lack of production isn't him just sucking and whiffing all the time.
I really hope the braintrust doesn't hold his big deep EZ whiff the other night against him... they need to work to his strengths and keep feeding him balls he can catch.
Quote from: Waffler on October 11, 2024, 12:19:23 AMIt's everybody, not the returner alone.
Have you noticed many (most?) teams take a IB or H penalty on every other return? I think those teams are being coached to be
very aggressive on the blocking and holding in the hopes that the refs can't see them all -- because they can't.
Someone needs to run the math on the pros of breaking more huge returns (or TDs) vs the cons of being sent back on 50%+ of returns. It might turn out the "cheating" way is better.
Notice how WPG doesn't take very many IB/H hold calls on ST? Because we're trying to play it clean. It might be impossible to get good returns when you do this if you don't have a player named Grant, Owens, Gizmo, Pinball or Ishmael.
Then the conundrum becomes: can we find such a player? or should we start cheating? or just be satisfied we get 10-20Y each return and don't fumble?
If our O is clicking big time, just cleanly getting the ball back is enough. We've just won 8 games "without a return game", after all...
(I know what I would have taken in the '22 GC if the choice was between an O that could move the ball more effectively vs Grant busting a TD...)
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 11, 2024, 05:07:45 AMHave you noticed many (most?) teams take a IB or H penalty on every other return? I think those teams are being coached to be very aggressive on the blocking and holding in the hopes that the refs can't see them all -- because they can't.
Someone needs to run the math on the pros of breaking more huge returns (or TDs) vs the cons of being sent back on 50%+ of returns. It might turn out the "cheating" way is better.
Notice how WPG doesn't take very many IB/H hold calls on ST? Because we're trying to play it clean. It might be impossible to get good returns when you do this if you don't have a player named Grant, Owens, Gizmo, Pinball or Ishmael.
Then the conundrum becomes: can we find such a player? or should we start cheating? or just be satisfied we get 10-20Y each return and don't fumble?
- No, I haven't noticed a holding or IB penalty on every other kick in the CFL
- Math shows the number is closer to 7.5% rather than the 50+% suggested
- No, Winnipeg is no cleaner than other teams. Most teams, including Winnipeg, are grouped together with similar numbers.
- No conundrum
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 11, 2024, 05:01:37 AMAre you conveniently forgetting the TD Lucky got that broke open an important game, his very first game back on the AR? Wasn't that the first TD Zach threw all year? That's the play that finally got Zach out of his funk.
I bet his catch/TD to snaps ratio is pretty good on our O. He doesn't see the field much, so his lack of production isn't him just sucking and whiffing all the time.
I really hope the braintrust doesn't hold his big deep EZ whiff the other night against him... they need to work to his strengths and keep feeding him balls he can catch.
I was cherry-picking the last 6 games played because it feels like we've forgotten that he can actually be a really good receiver if we put him out there. Just feels like he gets on the field for 10% of the offensive snaps. I think we can use Whitehead better, especially on those underneath routes like you mentioned!
My point of this post was, if we aren't using Whitehead as a rotational WR but only as a KR and last resort back up WR, we might as well use the guy who has had more success returning the ball.
Quote from: Stats Junkie on October 11, 2024, 06:46:04 PM- No, I haven't noticed a holding or IB penalty on every other kick in the CFL
- Math shows the number is closer to 7.5% rather than the 50+% suggested
- No, Winnipeg is no cleaner than any other teams. Mose teams, including Winnipeg, are grouped together with similar numbers.
- No conundrum
#FactChecked ;)
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 11, 2024, 04:57:17 AMThat's it. Lucky's a no-fumble returner who has a remote possibility of breaking one. But more importantly, he's a legit REC who can hurt opponents. Sure, his hands suck, but it you get the ball to him while he's facing you, he'll make the catch. And he's one great decoy on the go route because DBs have to respect his speed: great for clearing out the field for Kenny et al.
And a mature vet REC won't make the rookie mistakes. You can't discount the importance of this at this stage.
Also, don't forget that to get Case in you would have to bench Lucky. It's not like we have AR space for both... So you have to look at the whole package.
There is no one else I'd rather dress from our PR right now than Lucky. (Everyone's forgetting the pain that was Mitchell we kept dressing before Lucky was signed...)
Yeah having a veteran backup WR is a great point in the argument for Whitehead. I think probably the best point in his favor.
I'd like to see what Case can do to be honest. I really liked him in the preseason as a WR and also when we've seen him as a KR this season.
Quote from: LXTSN on October 11, 2024, 07:33:10 PMI was cherry-picking the last 6 games played because it feels like we've forgotten that he can actually be a really good receiver if we put him out there. Just feels like he gets on the field for 10% of the offensive snaps. I think we can use Whitehead better, especially on those underneath routes like you mentioned!
My point of this post was, if we aren't using Whitehead as a rotational WR but only as a KR and last resort back up WR, we might as well use the guy who has had more success returning the ball.
Quote from: Stats Junkie on October 11, 2024, 06:46:04 PM- No, I haven't noticed a holding or IB penalty on every other kick in the CFL
- Math shows the number is closer to 7.5% rather than the 50+% suggested
- No, Winnipeg is no cleaner than any other teams. Mose teams, including Winnipeg, are grouped together with similar numbers.
- No conundrum
I don't think he meant the 50+% as a stat but as an experiment.
If a team were to be extra aggressive on blocking for returns, would it be worth it to take a penalty 50% of the time, if you knew you could break one for a TD 1/10 attempts?
Quote from: Stats Junkie on October 11, 2024, 06:46:04 PM- No, I haven't noticed a holding or IB penalty on every other kick in the CFL
- Math shows the number is closer to 7.5% rather than the 50+% suggested
- No, Winnipeg is no cleaner than other teams. Most teams, including Winnipeg, are grouped together with similar numbers.
- No conundrum
...but isn't it true that the more times you watch a game on PVR the more penalties that are called?
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 11, 2024, 05:07:45 AMHave you noticed many (most?) teams take a IB or H penalty on every other return? I think those teams are being coached to be very aggressive on the blocking and holding in the hopes that the refs can't see them all -- because they can't.
Someone needs to run the math on the pros of breaking more huge returns (or TDs) vs the cons of being sent back on 50%+ of returns. It might turn out the "cheating" way is better.
Notice how WPG doesn't take very many IB/H hold calls on ST? Because we're trying to play it clean. It might be impossible to get good returns when you do this if you don't have a player named Grant, Owens, Gizmo, Pinball or Ishmael.
Then the conundrum becomes: can we find such a player? or should we start cheating? or just be satisfied we get 10-20Y each return and don't fumble?
If our O is clicking big time, just cleanly getting the ball back is enough. We've just won 8 games "without a return game", after all...
(I know what I would have taken in the '22 GC if the choice was between an O that could move the ball more effectively vs Grant busting a TD...)
Man you are really into the tinfoil on this one....
MOS used to be big on trick plays. I reminded of this by today's blast from the past post from Joe Pascucci. A thing of beauty it was.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DBBx8SAuj8R/
Quote from: Waffler on October 12, 2024, 08:01:25 PMMOS used to be big on trick plays. I reminded of this by today's blast from the past post from Joe Pascucci. A thing of beauty it was.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DBBx8SAuj8R/
The Blue Bombers tried this play in the first half of that game but the officials blew the play dead as Matt Pearce was picking the ball up.
I would just like to see us run a draw when these teams are blitzing on us over and over again.
Quote from: Pigskin on October 12, 2024, 08:38:46 PMI would just like to see us run a draw when these teams are blitzing on us over and over again.
I don't think the Argos were blitzing much, they mostly created pressure with their front 4.
Quote from: Stats Junkie on October 11, 2024, 06:46:04 PM- No, I haven't noticed a holding or IB penalty on every other kick in the CFL
- Math shows the number is closer to 7.5% rather than the 50+% suggested
- No, Winnipeg is no cleaner than other teams. Most teams, including Winnipeg, are grouped together with similar numbers.
- No conundrum
I was using hyperbole to make a point. Although I find the 7.5% number hard to believe. Maybe I'm being swayed in my memory by a few select teams being particularly memorable and bad for IB/H. There are some teams and some games where they were calling IB/H on one team every few returns. (It might depend on the ref crew too.)
What's the % of returns with IB/H committed by each team, or maybe even just the 3 worst teams? And how does the 7.5% number compare to previous years? My main point is it feels like teams are holding more this season.
And I really can't believe for a second that WPG is committing even half the IB/H on ST that the worst team is. What we've seen from WPG is they'll get 1-2 IB/H in a game one week and then work hard to clean it up 1-2 weeks later and go 100% clean.
You have the advantage of having all the stats that all "your guys" (paid?) produce with you -- we don't have that advantage -- so you'll need to enlighten us with the numbers to better judge what's going on.
I still maintain that WPG ST tries to play returns a lot cleaner than other teams. Some games this year (and most years) you can hear MOS chirping to the refs after a return that the other team is IB/Hing. It's one of his biggest bugbears, going by his chirp level.
Quote from: dd on October 12, 2024, 04:33:29 AMMan you are really into the tinfoil on this one....
I'm really not. Teams are trying to find "the line" when it comes to blocking for returns. Since it's a moving target from season to season, game to game, ref crew to ref crew, they may need to push the envelope and take a IB/H to determine where that line is.
It's like car racing. You want to take that corner absolutely as fast as you can without losing traction and careening into the barrier. To find that line you sometimes have to push it so far you do crash, or at least get very darn close to losing control.
If, in general, refs have decided to let more holding go -- to be less "flaggy" -- then you need to play to that new line if you want to gain the advantage. Finding that line all the time can result in more flags until the team dials it back a bit.
Quote from: Pigskin on October 12, 2024, 08:38:46 PMI would just like to see us run a draw when these teams are blitzing on us over and over again.
Yes! I was screaming at no one in particular on Fri on certain passing plays (like 2nd & 6) where it would be ideal to call a delayed draw with Brady. Or even one with Zach if the stars align and we get the flat vacated.
Of course, we didn't do a draw and we screw up the pass and it's kicking time... sigh.
Then later in the game TOR is in the same situation and they run a perfect delayed draw.
Yes, TOR didn't blitz much, they usually did 4 or a blockers-minus-one scheme, and they got home way too much. Orimalade was never that good in SSK, I have no idea who spiked his wheaties that morning.
Lofton was getting beaten badly all night. Whole OL stunk in 1st H and then again near the end. That's what cost us the game: no OL, no Zach.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 13, 2024, 06:53:22 AMYes! I was screaming at no one in particular on Fri on certain passing plays (like 2nd & 6) where it would be ideal to call a delayed draw with Brady. Or even one with Zach if the stars align and we get the flat vacated.
Of course, we didn't do a draw and we screw up the pass and it's kicking time... sigh.
Then later in the game TOR is in the same situation and they run a perfect delayed draw.
Yes, TOR didn't blitz much, they usually did 4 or a blockers-minus-one scheme, and they got home way too much. Orimalade was never that good in SSK, I have no idea who spiked his wheaties that morning.
Lofton was getting beaten badly all night. Whole OL stunk in 1st H and then again near the end. That's what cost us the game: no OL, no Zach.
You're confusing Orimalade with someone else, he never played in Sask. He's one of the great players the Stamps brought into the league but failed to protect from the Argos poaching in F.A..
Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 13, 2024, 06:48:34 AMI'm really not. Teams are trying to find "the line" when it comes to blocking for returns. Since it's a moving target from season to season, game to game, ref crew to ref crew, they may need to push the envelope and take a IB/H to determine where that line is.
It's like car racing. You want to take that corner absolutely as fast as you can without losing traction and careening into the barrier. To find that line you sometimes have to push it so far you do crash, or at least get very darn close to losing control.
If, in general, refs have decided to let more holding go -- to be less "flaggy" -- then you need to play to that new line if you want to gain the advantage. Finding that line all the time can result in more flags until the team dials it back a bit.
as an official for 36 years, I assure you there is no new 'line' to find, its the same 'line' every game. A block on the back , is a block on the back, a hold is a hold. Blocks on the back are easy to call, holding not so much. Everyone knows the technique is to grad the opponent under the armpits from the front and 'hold', the thing is from an officials stand point, is if the defender being held stands still, its impossible to call the hold as there is no tell tale sign of jersey pulling, and blockers are getting much much better at moving their feet to stay in front of their opponent even though they are trying to move left or right. So the difference from team to team is, some teams just have better blockers, er, players who hide the holding better, as everyone knows, there's holding on every return, the trick is you have to have enough evidence (cloth pulling, jerking of bodies), to call it.
I think that finding a returner will be a priority in the off season. Its one area we really need an upgrade.