I think management should sign these players to extensions sooner rather than later. Would hate to lose them in free agency.
Yes, they'd be on the immediate target list post season to use any SMS left if possible.
The Bombers should sign NIcholls, Bonds Holm and Ford to longer terms. The Bombers could have a solid secondary for a few seasons.
I worry the Ford bros. will want to play together back home in Ontario. That'd sure be a scoop for those old Ti-Cats.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 06, 2024, 06:04:26 PMI worry the Ford bros. will want to play together back home in Ontario. That'd sure be a scoop for those old Ti-Cats.
Lol. Everytime there's a pair of siblings, people make these comments.
I personally do not make career decisions based on where my brother works.
Needs to be Top priority to sign these guys!
Scouting staff seems to be top notch at find DBs. Bonds, aside from a few break downs, has been good as well.
Quote from: Jesse on September 06, 2024, 06:23:12 PMLol. Everytime there's a pair of siblings, people make these comments.
I personally do not make career decisions based on where my brother works.
True, but these guys are twins, ooze charisma and are both destined to be big names in the CFL....just like the Philpots!!!
Ford ends up in the NFL, no?
Quote from: peg_city on September 06, 2024, 07:16:34 PMFord ends up in the NFL, no?
Considering he was just there I'd say no.
Quote from: Jesse on September 06, 2024, 06:23:12 PMLol. Everytime there's a pair of siblings, people make these comments.
I personally do not make career decisions based on where my brother works.
But this is football, there's no doubt they'd love to be on the same team and play closer to home, I know I would
Quote from: Jesse on September 06, 2024, 06:23:12 PMLol. Everytime there's a pair of siblings, people make these comments.
I personally do not make career decisions based on where my brother works.
Identical twins are a different story.
Quote from: dd on September 07, 2024, 03:10:38 AMBut this is football, there's no doubt they'd love to be on the same team and play closer to home, I know I would
Exactly. It's football. Moving away from home is what they signed up for.
Sedin twins a great example of how that can work like clockwork. Difficult to do, magic if you can do it. Not to mention the marketing potential.
Regardless of where they play, it's a blessing to have this Canadian talent in display. Another rock solid reason why the ratio must remain. Generational talent on display.
There are a couple of issues with expecting both brothers to be on the same team. Tre Ford may want to stay in Edmonton if he is made the # 1 QB with contract to match in Edmonton. I'm not even sure who is the starting QB in Edmonton for the rest of the season.
His play may determine the chance at a big raise etc etc. Or the Elks may make a play to acquire VAJ from BC. I see a greater chance that the Elks try to stick with Ford and BLM if the SMS works out. However the 1st part of the question is much more does it cost to retain him?
Part 2 is that T. Ford has earned a raise and as a Canadian that has extra value. His 1st choice might be staying in Winnipeg where is entrenched in our roster. What does it cost the team in SMS.
I see it as two large SMS investments by any team. Not every team will be looking for both a starting QB option and a starting CB? Noting that there will be many import DB's available at lower costs. Teams seem to find great DB's on ELC's.
I wouldn't mind seeing both Ford's in Winnipeg and there is a slight chance of that. Edmonton might not be prepared to offer a guaranteed big contract and Ford may want to escape the insanity in Edmonton. That said, I'm just guessing he ends up staying in Edmonton. Yes, Edmonton could use Tyrell Ford as well so can't rule that out either.
Calgary and Hamilton could be on the lookout for a new starter but as we know VAJ will on road somewhere in 2025.
At the very least I sure want to keep our Ford in Winnipeg. He's going to be even better in the future.
Quote from: Blue In BC on September 07, 2024, 02:47:59 PMThere are a couple of issues with expecting both brothers to be on the same team. Tre Ford may want to stay in Edmonton if he is made the # 1 QB with contract to match in Edmonton. I'm not even sure who is the starting QB in Edmonton for the rest of the season.
His play may determine the chance at a big raise etc etc. Or the Elks may make a play to acquire VAJ from BC. I see a greater chance that the Elks try to stick with Ford and BLM if the SMS works out. However the 1st part of the question is much more does it cost to retain him?
Part 2 is that T. Ford has earned a raise and as a Canadian that has extra value. His 1st choice might be staying in Winnipeg where is entrenched in our roster. What does it cost the team in SMS.
I see it as two large SMS investments by any team. Not every team will be looking for both a starting QB option and a starting CB? Noting that there will be many import DB's available at lower costs. Teams seem to find great DB's on ELC's.
I wouldn't mind seeing both Ford's in Winnipeg and there is a slight chance of that. Edmonton might not be prepared to offer a guaranteed big contract and Ford may want to escape the insanity in Edmonton. That said, I'm just guessing he ends up staying in Edmonton. Yes, Edmonton could use Tyrell Ford as well so can't rule that out either.
Calgary and Hamilton could be on the lookout for a new starter but as we know VAJ will on road somewhere in 2025.
At the very least I sure want to keep our Ford in Winnipeg. He's going to be even better in the future.
Nobody knows nothing, but if they announce they come as a package deal heading into FA.
1. they'll get away with it.
2. teams will fight to sign them as a pair.
3. they'll create a lot of positive buzz for the CFL.
That's why I see them eventually landing in Ont. ideally Toronto where they need all the buzz they can generate. After the Chad Kelly fiasco the CFL needs to proactively work to promote itself in a positive light and the Ford brothers have the potential to become nationally recognizable celebrities outside CFL circles, which probably hasn't happened in over 20 years. The opportunity is there if the CFL wants to take advantage of it.
Signing them together would also help to revitalize either team in Alberta, but in those locations the Natl. media would largely ignore them.
Quote from: Jesse on September 07, 2024, 02:24:57 PMExactly. It's football. Moving away from home is what they signed up for.
Tell that to Brady Olivera and Nathan Rourke.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 07, 2024, 04:06:26 PMNobody knows nothing, but if they announce they come as a package deal heading into FA.
1. they'll get away with it.
2. teams will fight to sign them as a pair.
3. they'll create a lot of positive buzz for the CFL.
That's why I see them eventually landing in Ont. ideally Toronto where they need all the buzz they can generate. After the Chad Kelly fiasco the CFL needs to proactively work to promote itself in a positive light and the Ford brothers have the potential to become nationally recognizable celebrities outside CFL circles, which probably hasn't happened in over 20 years. The opportunity is there if the CFL wants to take advantage of it.
Signing them together would also help to revitalize either team in Alberta, but in those locations the Natl. media would largely ignore them.
Announcing that they come as a pair limits their chances. I think there is little chance of them making that announcement publicly. Intending to land somewhere as a pair possibly in their considerations. Every team will have a different need and SMS capability. I'd bet they don't land on the same team but that's just an opinion.
The CFL has no control what they decide to do individually or as brothers. It's interesting that they are twins and Canadians but in the end teams will look to add talent if they have needs at those positions. Slight advantage to teams needing starting Canadians now withstanding.
Going back east, a reasonable thought but eventually it comes down to opportunity and money.
Quote from: Blue In BC on September 07, 2024, 04:29:11 PMAnnouncing that they come as a pair limits their chances. I think there is little chance of them making that announcement publicly. Intending to land somewhere as a pair possibly in their considerations. Every team will have a different need and SMS capability. I'd bet they don't land on the same team but that's just an opinion.
The CFL has no control what they decide to do individually or as brothers. It's interesting that they are twins and Canadians but in the end teams will look to add talent if they have needs at those positions. Slight advantage to teams needing starting Canadians now withstanding.
Going back east, a reasonable thought but eventually it comes down to opportunity and money.
Not that many teams would be interested in Tre Ford at QB but every team could accommodate Tyrell Ford at corner with the ratio flexibility he adds.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 07, 2024, 04:49:36 PMNot that many teams would be interested in Tre Ford at QB but every team could accommodate Tyrell Ford at corner with the ratio flexibility he adds.
Yes, Tyrell is going to draw interest from across the league if he reaches free agency. I don't expect the Bombers to lose the battle on their offer. Whether his interest leads him further east I don't know but I don't see us being outbid unless there is some insane offer elsewhere.
Quote from: dd on September 07, 2024, 04:24:30 PMTell that to Brady Olivera and Nathan Rourke.
lol. Versus how many players that do not play for their home town?
Well, Ford just keeps making himself more expensive, lol.
Quote from: Jesse on September 07, 2024, 06:10:42 PMlol. Versus how many players that do not play for their home town?
Pro athletes do it all the time. Johnny hockey signed with Columbus instead of the flames to play closer to home,henoc muamba did the same and the list goes on and on. Guarantee you anything if players had the option to play close to home or away, they would choose to play closer to home, it just makes sense
The two Fords would look good in Blue n Gold.
Quote from: Bomber Diehard on September 08, 2024, 12:25:14 PMThe two Fords would look good in Blue n Gold.
So would the Philpot brothers.
Quote from: dd on September 07, 2024, 10:26:16 PMPro athletes do it all the time. Johnny hockey signed with Columbus instead of the flames to play closer to home,henoc muamba did the same and the list goes on and on. Guarantee you anything if players had the option to play close to home or away, they would choose to play closer to home, it just makes sense
Some players are happier to play close to home. Some are happier to get the most money. It depends on the player.
Walters needs to sign these guys soon.
Yup our Ford could be in the $300,000.00 range. He's very good. It's our hometown Grey Cup.
Quote from: DM83 on September 08, 2024, 06:28:26 PMYup our Ford could be in the $300,000.00 range. He's very good. It's our hometown Grey Cup.
A 300,000 field corner?! Hecccckkkk no.
I don't think he would make 300,000 a year but I do think he could be the highest paid DB in the league.
Quote from: Austin85 on September 08, 2024, 06:19:31 PMWalters needs to sign these guys soon.
Holm may sign a extension before the season is over. Ford will listen to offers.
I think we are looking at 150-170,000 for Ford based on this:
https://3downnation.com/2024/05/13/the-cfls-15-highest-paid-defensive-backs-for-the-2024-season/
Blank cheque for Ford. Sign Holm for sure.
Quote from: bunker on September 08, 2024, 09:45:57 PMI think we are looking at 150-170,000 for Ford based on this:
https://3downnation.com/2024/05/13/the-cfls-15-highest-paid-defensive-backs-for-the-2024-season/
He's worth that for sure.
Quote from: bunker on September 08, 2024, 09:45:57 PMI think we are looking at 150-170,000 for Ford based on this:
https://3downnation.com/2024/05/13/the-cfls-15-highest-paid-defensive-backs-for-the-2024-season/
I'd do that no problem. I'm afraid he'll want to re-write the pay scale like Brady did though.
Quote from: Jesse on September 09, 2024, 02:07:13 AMI'd do that no problem. I'm afraid he'll want to re-write the pay scale like Brady did though.
He's spending the bye week with his bro, what do you think they're talking about?
1. Tyrell trying to convince Tre to sign with Wpg.
2. Tre trying to convince Tyrell to sign with Edm.
3. Both agreeing to go to free agency but signing with the same team.
Paying multiple DB's above average of $100k requires cutting salary in other positions, rob Peter to pay Paul, which we witnessed first hand this season. The most obvious places to reduce in the off-season are Stanley and Biggie and maybe dealing away one of the 3 expensive receivers. Not a lot of above average earners in other positions to cut from, the budget is screaming.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 09, 2024, 05:00:14 PMPaying multiple DB's above average of $100k requires cutting salary in other positions, rob Peter to pay Paul, which we witnessed first hand this season. The most obvious places to reduce in the off-season are Stanley and Biggie and maybe dealing away one of the 3 expensive receivers. Not a lot of above average earners in other positions to cut from, the budget is screaming.
Thats always a juggling game. Salaries of Bighill and Thomas should be freed up next year.
When's the last time we've had a Canadian DB this good? Loffler I guess, but he was a safety.
While Ford will break the bank, he will be worth every penny.
Quote from: blue_or_die on September 09, 2024, 05:51:23 PMWhen's the last time we've had a Canadian DB this good? Loffler I guess, but he was a safety.
It's either him or Logan, IMO. I think both pale in comparison to what Ford brings to the table, though.
Quote from: blue_or_die on September 09, 2024, 05:51:23 PMWhen's the last time we've had a Canadian DB this good? Loffler I guess, but he was a safety.
Ford's nationality is hardly relevant as they're not desperate for DB's or nationals, it would be very nice to keep him if he wants to stay, but certainly not a signing that needs to be made at any cost. Smarter play is to lock in Holm for multiple years at a reasonable salary.
We have a dynamite defensive backfield right now. Ford/Holm, Nichols/Bonds and Alexander. Wow.
Fingers crossed we can maintain the bulk of them, Nichols/Bonds might have the friends and family discount.
I don't think we've had a group like this since Swaggerville.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 09, 2024, 06:36:44 PMFord's nationality is hardly relevant as they're not desperate for DB's or nationals, it would be very nice to keep him if he wants to stay, but certainly not a signing that needs to be made at any cost. Smarter play is to lock in Holm for multiple years at a reasonable salary.
I guess but it would be hard to let a ratio breaker walk. He's a Canadian that plays like to top level shutdown corner.
That said, whether I like it or not, you're probably right that KW will make the most pragmatic choices and let this big payday go knowing we are good at finding cheap but skilled DBs in favour of other parts of the roster.
However, with the possibility of moving on from other pricey pieces loaded on offense, we may choose to spread the wealth a little more evenly going forward.
And next year is a home Grey Cup for whatever that means re the cap and roster management.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 09, 2024, 06:36:44 PMFord's nationality is hardly relevant as they're not desperate for DB's or nationals, it would be very nice to keep him if he wants to stay, but certainly not a signing that needs to be made at any cost. Smarter play is to lock in Holm for multiple years at a reasonable salary.
Well you won't have solid national play if you don't retain your best ones. However, you're right, if he bolts to Edmonton in the off season his loss is very survivable for the Bombers. It's not like we've ever had trouble finding field corners. I hope he stays though. He's awesome.
Quote from: Blueforlife on September 09, 2024, 06:09:00 PMWhile Ford will break the bank, he will be worth every penny.
No blank cheque. No breaking the bank. His offer will be what the Bombers can offer, how it affects other players on the team and our situation with the SMS.
Our Ford might get another look from the NFL.
They seem to like CFL defensive backs.
Quote from: ModAdmin on September 09, 2024, 10:34:06 PMNo blank cheque. No breaking the bank. His offer will be what the Bombers can offer, how it affects other players on the team and our situation with the SMS.
I believe he is worth as strong as offer as we can afford. Of course there are other considerations, we all know that. Stating the obvious imo. He would be one of my top priorities. A rare talent with the right passport, we can't afford to lose him. My point was make him an offer he can't refuse. I believe signing him at the expense of another player might pay off. I believe the strain on the SMS would be worth it. I believe we should break the bank on him and I really hope we find a way to make this work. I would be negotiating now. Blank cheque is just a quick way of saying to pay the man what he wants /what he is worth /what the market would pay. I use that term when I believe we should agreesively go after a star player. I never dreamed we could sign all our stars on offence, time for management to work their magic again.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on September 09, 2024, 10:12:53 PMWell you won't have solid national play if you don't retain your best ones. However, you're right, if he bolts to Edmonton in the off season his loss is very survivable for the Bombers. It's not like we've ever had trouble finding field corners. I hope he stays though. He's awesome.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 09, 2024, 06:36:44 PMFord's nationality is hardly relevant as they're not desperate for DB's or nationals, it would be very nice to keep him if he wants to stay, but certainly not a signing that needs to be made at any cost. Smarter play is to lock in Holm for multiple years at a reasonable salary.
Slightly under stating the importance of a rare talent at corner (Cdn) imo. Hard to argue against signing Holm long term. I would suggest the same idea with Ford. Yes we have certainly found / developed talent on the defensive side for so many years. Hats off to the scouts, management and coaches.
What type of money would it cost for Ford and Holm for 2 or 3 years?
It's easy to say, sign these guys! Pay them whatever! It's harder to answer who's money you're going to give them. Schoen's? Lawler's? Jefferson's? Someone else?
Here's the reality: defensive back is not a position we've historically spent at. Instead, we've relied on good scouting and rookies out playing their contracts -- and we've had a lot of success in doing so. Holm plays half back and they are harder to find than field corners. They just are. Ford's value is that he's an above average corner and a national. What premium do you place on that? $175,000 maybe? If someone wants to pay $200+ I don't see how that would work for us or be in our best interest. If we're going to overpay, I'd overpay Holm probably.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on September 10, 2024, 02:09:34 AMHere's the reality: defensive back is not a position we've historically spent at. Instead, we've relied on good scouting and rookies out playing their contracts -- and we've had a lot of success in doing so.
Yup. WPG has been a DB factory for the CFL for many years now. We find & make them stars, other teams poach them in FA. We've lost our 1-2 best vets every FA for years.
Then we get scared when we see our depleted DB corps in week 1, but then the new guys step up or the sophomores amp up their game, and we're fine again!
Since it's worked for so long, I see no reason we don't stick to that formula. As long as you cap the DB loss count at 2, you'll be ok.
So I fully expect to lose 1 or 2 of Ford/Holm/Nichols in FA. We'll be very sad, and worry, but it'll be ok. If we manage to lose just 1, I'd call that a huge win.
One final consideration: DB longevity is the worst of all positions. They age out fast. If you want to groom a franchise, super-long-term loyalty player, better to do it at other positions. I guess there's the chance he could last as long as Chezie (the last great NAT DB), but I wouldn't bet money on it.
Quote from: blue_or_die on September 09, 2024, 07:16:36 PMAnd next year is a home Grey Cup for whatever that means re the cap and roster management.
Whatever BC gets away with re:SMS in 2024 we should 100% duplicate in 2025. In fact, if the league pushback is minimal, go mental: why not? So many other teams' fans are saying they'd do it, including people here. And if you're gonna do it, go hog wild, like $1M over cap.
Quote from: theaardvark on September 09, 2024, 06:39:38 PMWe have a dynamite defensive backfield right now. Ford/Holm, Nichols/Bonds and Alexander. Wow.
I don't think we've had a group like this since Swaggerville.
2021 DB crew with Alford was better than both now and Swaggerville. IMHO
(The proof is in the cup? And the fact the DBs basically won that game twice for us.)
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 09, 2024, 04:52:16 PMHe's spending the bye week with his bro, what do you think they're talking about?
How they're gonna rig the game? :o :o :o :o
Ya ok, boo hiss Tecno. Ya it's not
probable (I'll give our Ford more credit than that!), but it is
possible! And if they do rig it, I hope they decided it should be in WPG's favor!
Y'all know there is a good possibility Ford might tackle Ford in the open field, right? How does DB Ford approach that hit? Is he going to lay the big wood on his own brother? Weird stuff.
Quote from: Jesse on September 07, 2024, 06:10:42 PMlol. Versus how many players that do not play for their home town?
Ya, but how many NATs are league #1's at their position like Brady/Ford! Most NATs are no-name unknown unsung STers... maybe the superstars want to be special in their hometowns?
Quote from: Blueforlife on September 10, 2024, 01:26:55 AMI believe he is worth as strong as offer as we can afford. Of course there are other considerations, we all know that. Stating the obvious imo. He would be one of my top priorities. A rare talent with the right passport, we can't afford to lose him. My point was make him an offer he can't refuse. I believe signing him at the expense of another player might pay off. I believe the strain on the SMS would be worth it. I believe we should break the bank on him and I really hope we find a way to make this work. I would be negotiating now. Blank cheque is just a quick way of saying to pay the man what he wants /what he is worth /what the market would pay. I use that term when I believe we should agreesively go after a star player. I never dreamed we could sign all our stars on offence, time for management to work their magic again.
Slightly under stating the importance of a rare talent at corner (Cdn) imo. Hard to argue against signing Holm long term. I would suggest the same idea with Ford. Yes we have certainly found / developed talent on the defensive side for so many years. Hats off to the scouts, management and coaches.
What type of money would it cost for Ford and Holm for 2 or 3 years?
OK, (see bolded statement) so you are doubling down on what you originally said "blank cheque" and "break the bank". Pay him "what he wants" is exactly the same thing. But, no matter what he wants, that doesn't mean it would be wise to pay him "what he wants" if that means potentially jeopardizing other position(s). Would I want to pay Ford whatever he asks for if it meant losing, for example, Holm and/or a combination of other players we consider important to the team? It's not simple and floating statements like "pay the man what he wants (blank cheque)" is very clearly something the team would never do. Too many other factors to consider.
Ford certainly will command a raise and other teams, especially those weak at DB, will take a run at him - not even mentioning the draw there will be for both brothers to play together - and no doubt the Bombers will make the best offer they can without downgrading the needs of the team.
I have two gut reactions:
1) Listening to all of Ford's quote's, he has a very high sense of self-worth.
2) Seeing how we divide the salary cap pie; combined with our scouting success at the position, we haven't paid a DB.
Neither of those things bode well for a Ford contract. But there are a couple of factors that may dictate a change in philosophy:
- We're not not to be paying the same amount for Lawler and Schoen next season. Whether we move on from one or their contract come down a bit, they have not been worth the money.
- Grey Cup year, we'll definitely push the chips in a bit
- Our National depth has been a strength, but we need to restock the "high end" part that has been aging out or left via FA.
- DBs are not pushing 300k. We haven't seen one at 200k yet, I don't think. It's not going to eat up more cap space than any other top Canadian.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 07, 2024, 04:49:36 PMNot that many teams would be interested in Tre Ford at QB but every team could accommodate Tyrell Ford at corner with the ratio flexibility he adds.
Every team would be interested with Tre, even if it's a backup role. Streveler would be third string, if Tre became a Bomber.
I'm sure he could play boundary CB, just like Sanchez.
Quote from: CrazyCanuck89 on September 10, 2024, 04:11:42 PMEvery team would be interested with Tre, even if it's a backup role. Streveler would be third string, if Tre became a Bomber.
You're correct when you look at it out of context. Add in his desire to start and the possibility of a $300k+ contract and most teams will bow out quickly.
We no doubt will have an opportunity to match any deal anyone negotiates, and other teams will know that, and can make crazy offers, knowing we will most likely match in a GC hosting year.
And I'm fine with going over the cap, losing some picks and paying a fine.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 10, 2024, 04:23:21 PMYou're correct when you look at it out of context. Add in his desire to start and the possibility of a $300k+ contract and most teams will bow out quickly.
Yeah, his market will depend on how many teams see him as a legit starting QB.
I imagine most teams would want his salary based around games started, but it just takes one.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 10, 2024, 05:03:14 AM2021 DB crew with Alford was better than both now and Swaggerville. IMHO
(The proof is in the cup? And the fact the DBs basically won that game twice for us.)
The 2021 crew also had a seriously frightening pass rush which makes playing defensive back significantly easier.
This crew is almost doing it in reverse. The DBs are making it hard to find receivers which is helping the pass rush play a bit better.
Not sure which group is better but if I was forced to choose I'd say this one and that's really saying something because they were good in 2021.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on September 10, 2024, 05:46:03 PMThe 2021 crew also had a seriously frightening pass rush which makes playing defensive back significantly easier.
This crew is almost doing it in reverse. The DBs are making it hard to find receivers which is helping the pass rush play a bit better.
Not sure which group is better but if I was forced to choose I'd say this one and that's really saying something because they were good in 2021.
I much prefer the 2019 hard pass rush approach, giving talented QB's unlimited time to find a receiver and throw the ball extends every defensive play 3-5 seconds. Over the course of a game this becomes more tiring and allows for more errors.
Quote from: ModAdmin on September 10, 2024, 06:28:43 AMOK, (see bolded statement) so you are doubling down on what you originally said "blank cheque" and "break the bank". Pay him "what he wants" is exactly the same thing. But, no matter what he wants, that doesn't mean it would be wise to pay him "what he wants" if that means potentially jeopardizing other position(s). Would I want to pay Ford whatever he asks for if it meant losing, for example, Holm and/or a combination of other players we consider important to the team? It's not simple and floating statements like "pay the man what he wants (blank cheque)" is very clearly something the team would never do. Too many other factors to consider.
Ford certainly will command a raise and other teams, especially those weak at DB, will take a run at him - not even mentioning the draw there will be for both brothers to play together - and no doubt the Bombers will make the best offer they can without downgrading the needs of the team.
You don't want to over pay him, I think it's worth it (within reason). That is all. No need to go over it again and again. Agree to disagree. We don't see eye to eye on much of what we post, that's ok let's move on.
This is what I said
"pay the man what he wants /what he is worth /what the market would pay"
Doesn't mean I'm right and we don't know if your ideas are right either. Time will tell. We won't solve this problem by arguing about it. The Bombers will.
Quote from: Blueforlife on September 10, 2024, 06:25:23 PMYou don't want to over pay him, I think it's worth it (within reason). That is all. No need to go over it again and again. Agree to disagree. We don't see eye to eye on much of what we post, that's ok let's move on.
This is what I said
"pay the man what he wants /what he is worth /what the market would pay"
Doesn't mean I'm right and we don't know if your ideas are right either. Time will tell. We won't solve this problem by arguing about it. The Bombers will.
I see it as a discussion, not an argument.
Quote from: ModAdmin on September 10, 2024, 07:42:45 PMI see it as a discussion, not an argument.
Nice to know thanks
Quote from: theaardvark on September 10, 2024, 05:07:30 PMWe no doubt will have an opportunity to match any deal anyone negotiates, and other teams will know that, and can make crazy offers, knowing we will most likely match in a GC hosting year.
What's our top DB making? $150k for Nichols? Ya, that's usually the max we ever pay DBs. And Nichols has more seniority/loyalty here. So I'm pretty sure Ford would max out at the same here ($150k).
If Fatboi retires and we plan with Ford to be our long-term ratio-busting D NAT, then we could take Fatboi's premium and put it into Ford, meaning max ~$170k for Ford. (Fatboi's DT spot would then be forced to be an ELC IMP.)
So if Ford wants max pay, and he could maybe get $200k somewhere, then we let him walk. If he wants to become a franchise guy like Chezie was, then he might accept what we can offer.
Lastly, it'll be hard to pay all of Ford/Holm/Nichols what they are worth, because they are all worth Nichols money. Maybe Parker stays for cheap and we retain Bonds, and get some new future-star scouting finds for depth.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 10, 2024, 10:20:27 PMWhat's our top DB making? $150k for Nichols? Ya, that's usually the max we ever pay DBs. And Nichols has more seniority/loyalty here. So I'm pretty sure Ford would max out at the same here ($150k).
If Fatboi retires and we plan with Ford to be our long-term ratio-busting D NAT, then we could take Fatboi's premium and put it into Ford, meaning max ~$170k for Ford. (Fatboi's DT spot would then be forced to be an ELC IMP.)
So if Ford wants max pay, and he could maybe get $200k somewhere, then we let him walk. If he wants to become a franchise guy like Chezie was, then he might accept what we can offer.
Lastly, it'll be hard to pay all of Ford/Holm/Nichols what they are worth, because they are all worth Nichols money. Maybe Parker stays for cheap and we retain Bonds, and get some new future-star scouting finds for depth.
What a player is worth and what a team is willing to pay are interesting discussions. Ford demands a premium as a Canadian but even that has to have a limit.
Our ratio may change next year or not. Too early to tell. At times we're starting 10 Canadians so we'll have ratio room, in theory.
The question is where does any amount shift from to Ford? There any number of veteran Canadians that may not be with the team in 2025. Most don't have big ELC's but they're not minimum either.
Ford is 26, Canadian, playing a position usually not played by Canadians and playing at a high level. You pay him well and make the necessary roster adjustments elsewhere.
Quote from: RebusRankin on September 10, 2024, 10:46:19 PMFord is 26, Canadian, playing a position usually not played by Canadians and playing at a high level. You pay him well and make the necessary roster adjustments elsewhere.
Sums it up nicely, pay the man!
Quote from: RebusRankin on September 10, 2024, 10:46:19 PMFord is 26, Canadian, playing a position usually not played by Canadians and playing at a high level. You pay him well and make the necessary roster adjustments elsewhere.
Hopefully Kyle Walters has learned, he overpaid for certain players this past off-season and ended up weaker in multiple positions. Lost multiple veteran players and gained little to no improvement from the players he chose to overpay.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 11, 2024, 05:23:57 AMHopefully Kyle Walters has learned, he overpaid for certain players this past off-season and ended up weaker in multiple positions. Lost multiple veteran players and gained little to no improvement from the players he chose to overpay.
Balancing the talent on the roster and SMS is not an easy task. For every player there is a tipping point. I'm not sure where that will be and it depends on when any player is signed. Those that sign before free agency stand a better chance of more money. Those that sign later may not get what they want because teams have planned / budgeted SMS elsewhere, regardless of how much free cash was initially available.
I always lean towards signing our top Canadians before the end of the season to use any remaining SMS. As a 2nd option before free agency frenzy.
It is a two street. Some players will test free agency before signing. This can be both a benefit or a problem for both sides.
I think we'd all be happy if Ford is signed right after the Grey Cup or even extended prior to the end of the season. Some teams are extending players already, so it's possible that could happen.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 11, 2024, 05:23:57 AMHopefully Kyle Walters has learned, he overpaid for certain players this past off-season and ended up weaker in multiple positions. Lost multiple veteran players and gained little to no improvement from the players he chose to overpay.
The multiple veterans he lost would have had to been "overpaid" to keep them. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Kind of a false equivalency.
We have paid players that we did not get full value from. Lawler is the prime example. Did he not perform, was he overdefended, or did we underutilize him? Who knows, but his stats did not equal his paycheck.
Its a lot different with a DB. It is much harder to misuse a DB, or to have a DB neutralized. I don't think a DB will ever get $300k, and whatever he does get, I think he will earn.
Will a Ford have the effect a Rourke will have on a roster? Of course not. And that's why QB's get $500k+++ and top DB's get $150k+. With 5 DB's to pay, its hard to give them all a premium salary, hence losing a Sayles, or a Houston when another team outbids us. Ford's play is worth a top DB salary, and his passport gets him a bump on top. Someone will take a run at him, no doubt. Depending on how high they go, we should match, and add the guaranteed money they can't offer.
Quote from: theaardvark on September 11, 2024, 04:45:33 PMThe multiple veterans he lost would have had to been "overpaid" to keep them. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Kind of a false equivalency.
We have paid players that we did not get full value from. Lawler is the prime example. Did he not perform, was he overdefended, or did we underutilize him? Who knows, but his stats did not equal his paycheck.
Its a lot different with a DB. It is much harder to misuse a DB, or to have a DB neutralized. I don't think a DB will ever get $300k, and whatever he does get, I think he will earn.
Will a Ford have the effect a Rourke will have on a roster? Of course not. And that's why QB's get $500k+++ and top DB's get $150k+. With 5 DB's to pay, its hard to give them all a premium salary, hence losing a Sayles, or a Houston when another team outbids us. Ford's play is worth a top DB salary, and his passport gets him a bump on top. Someone will take a run at him, no doubt. Depending on how high they go, we should match, and add the guaranteed money they can't offer.
Patently false, a number of players who were not re-signed were not overpaid and would have made this year's team immediately better. Grant, Bailey, Clement and yes even Jeffcoat. He brought a pass-rush to the team that can not be duplicated by any single player currently on the roster including Jefferson, and I believe he was paid fairly for his contribution.
Quote from: Blue In BC on September 11, 2024, 04:09:03 PMBalancing the talent on the roster and SMS is not an easy task.
And yet, Walters has done a pretty solid job over several seasons with this.
It's easy to crap on him with the gift of hindsight but that isn't saying much.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 11, 2024, 07:18:50 PMPatently false, a number of players who were not re-signed were not overpaid and would have made this year's team immediately better. Grant, Bailey, Clement and yes even Jeffcoat. He brought a pass-rush to the team that can not be duplicated by any single player currently on the roster including Jefferson, and I believe he was paid fairly for his contribution.
You only have so much $SMS to go around. My point was that is we don't pay Schoen or Oliviera, sure, we pay the rest the amount they got elsewhere. Grant, Bailey are not part of the discussion, Grant not being available to sign, Bailey just didn't have a spot after Schoen was signed. Jefferson and Clement retired. Houston and Hardrick got "overpaid".
Walters paid the guys we needed, and put a team around them that we could afford. Sure, the 4 you mention would have been nice signings, but 2 are out of football, one is on a PR and the other would not return calls.