As techno noted in another thread defenses are much more aggressive in 2024. Nearly every coach when they lose points to the physicality in the game.
We've seen some very serious injuries in the game. A few suggestions;
1. The command center can't let egregious hits go. (ie the closeline on wilson) Just because it's not a qb it's not free season.
2. Start calling excessive violence calls. I know we all love to see our team deliver crushing blows, but these are players lives.
3. Increase the frequency of 25 yard penalties i.e. the hit on lucky whitehead was a spear similar to what gave Collaros a concussion
4. hits to the unprotected receivers back need to be defined in terms of legality. Ie there's a difference in tackling a receiver and trying to put him into next week (may be same as point 2)
5. early hits to the back of dbs need to be called for pi even if it may not fall under the clear and obvious category. Its not only unfair to the receiver who has little chance to make reception but they aren't braced for it
curious to hear others thoughts.
Would you have defined the Jones hit on the returner that caused a fumble, excessive? We applauded that hit since it went in our favour. If that was our returner would we be screaming for a penalty?
None of us want to see any player on any team injured. Sometimes is a big hit, sometimes it's a normal hit that causes an injury ( like Lawler earlier in the year ).
Item 2: Initial thought was close line. Not so sure until I re-watch. Violent yes but was where was the contact point?
Item 3: hit to Whitehead. Yes it was late but hardly a big hit requiring a 25 yard assessment.
Item 4: is a normal play in a violent sport. How big a hit does it take to prevent the reception? You can't expect the DB to let a receiver make the catch?
It's hard for fans to be totally bias. I'm in favour of rule changes that improve safety. It's a little like the issue with the CC. Where do you draw the line? Live play or slow motion reviews?
Hit to whitehead was very late and to the head, when you see defenders barely touch qbs head its a rtp. To me its exactly a unnecessary hit. To give it the same penalty as small shove is nuts.
Football is a violent sport but some lines need to be drawn
Im not talking about the head on hits like jones you mentioned, its the hits on recievers/players in a vulnerable position. More and more dbs are hitting to injure vs clean tackles
I just used the examples against us but you see it all over the league
Quote from: Pete on August 25, 2024, 06:20:18 PMHit to whitehead was very late and yo the head, when you see defenders barely touch qbs head its a rtp. To me its exactly a unnecessary hit. To give it the same penalty as small shove is nuts.
In the h
It was somewhat late and unnecessary. A penalty was called. I wouldn't say it was very late at game speed. We can't have too many gradations in the yardage called. IMO it's typically a 15 yard situation for that infraction. Same as a glancing blow to a QB's head or face mask.
Quite frankly, I don't like the way they call RTP.
IMO if the QB is behind the LOS, then they should get extra protection. Once they've past the LOS, they should be considered the same as any other player who is running with the ball. The "did he start his slide in time" is a judgement call that Refs & defensive players shouldn't have to make in real time.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 25, 2024, 06:15:27 PMItem 3: hit to Whitehead. Yes it was late but hardly a big hit requiring a 25 yard assessment.
My problem with the penalties as called is that they evened out. One was a spear to the head and one was a harmless shove. I was sure Lucky got hurt on that one, glad to be wrong.
Quote from: TBURGESS on August 25, 2024, 06:33:42 PMQuite frankly, I don't like the way they call RTP.
IMO if the QB is behind the LOS, then they should get extra protection. Once they've past the LOS, they should be considered the same as any other player who is running with the ball. The "did he start his slide in time" is a judgement call that Refs & defensive players shouldn't have to make in real time.
That's complicated. QB's often do slide late. Sometimes feet first and sometime head first.
Some RTP are for a slight glanced hand to helmet and others late, very late and / or low.
The 25 yard penalties are usually an intentional fist to the head post play. Perhaps widening that to include blatant hits, like the below knee to a QB, even if pushed into the knees.
Problem is you can review 50 different RP penalties and they are all different. Late, very late, intentional like the Sayles hit at the end of the Elks blowing out the Ti Cats for example.
I'm a little surprised we haven't seen a few more disqualifications for RP. We only see that for two conduct penalties in a game.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 25, 2024, 06:15:27 PMWould you have defined the Jones hit on the returner that caused a fumble, excessive? We applauded that hit since it went in our favour. If that was our returner would we be screaming for a penalty?
None of us want to see any player on any team injured. Sometimes is a big hit, sometimes it's a normal hit that causes an injury ( like Lawler earlier in the year ).
Item 2: Initial thought was close line. Not so sure until I re-watch. Violent yes but was where was the contact point?
Item 3: hit to Whitehead. Yes it was late but hardly a big hit requiring a 25 yard assessment.
Item 4: is a normal play in a violent sport. How big a hit does it take to prevent the reception? You can't expect the DB to let a receiver make the catch?
It's hard for fans to be totally bias. I'm in favour of rule changes that improve safety. It's a little like the issue with the CC. Where do you draw the line? Live play or slow motion reviews?
Item 2, see article 4, point G and I from the CFL rulebook. Most definitely this was a penalty missed.
https://cfldb.ca/rulebook/fouls-and-penalties/major-fouls/
anything involving contact to the head should be called, and if the on field officials miss it, command centre should be able to step in and call it.
I would introduce another rule, any player getting 2 head related UR penalties, automatically gets a 25 yd game ejection on his second foul. This will deter those who like to head hunt, to stop. Lower your target area, we'll give you one missed proper tackle/head shot, but the second one, you're gone. Piddly 15 yard penalties clearly isn't getting the job done on detering players from taking head shots. This would. Kick em out after their 2nd infraction in the game.
Quote from: jdrattops on August 25, 2024, 11:44:06 PMItem 2, see article 4, point G and I from the CFL rulebook. Most definitely this was a penalty missed.
See Article 4 (i) illegal to... use a straight arm tackle
above the shoulders.
The hit was on the shoulders/neck. But it did touch the shoulders. Therefore it is legal. I think most of the clotheslines we've seen the last few seasons are uncalled because all of them touch the shoulders in some manner.
I would change the rule to read "a straight arm tackle that is not fully below the shoulders."
Almost every fan instinctively knows the clothesline we saw in that game was a clothesline and should be a penalty. And most want it to be a penalty. But as-written, it's not. So let's make it one. The end result is similar to a horsecollar and as such should be forbidden for player protection.
Quote from: DM83 on August 25, 2024, 11:13:09 PMFootball is a contact sport
In the real world when a QB scrambles and crosses the LOS, he is nit a QB, he is a runner. If he isn't sliding feet first he should be fair game.
As of a season or 3 ago this is no longer true. Certain QB protections exist even across the LoS, like head protection. I'm not totally sold on it yet (makes reffing it live nearly impossible), and it's not really fair to RBs who don't get head protection, but it's what we have to live with at the moment.
Quote from: Waffler on August 25, 2024, 06:35:58 PMMy problem with the penalties as called is that they evened out. One was a spear to the head and one was a harmless shove. I was sure Lucky got hurt on that one, glad to be wrong.
It wasn't even a real shove... It was more like "what do you think you're doing punk?". Worse shoves occur every other play and are never called. If you want to flag that, call it OC/USLC, not UR.
It was asinine that they evened out.
I 100% would have given that head-hunter on Lucky 25 and think long and hard about a DQ. He wasn't late in the sense of the whistle (it was within the whistle) but in the sense that Lucky was clearly down and motionless for a ton of time, well before the clown left his feet. You just don't do that!!
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 26, 2024, 02:19:50 AMSee Article 4 (i) illegal to... use a straight arm tackle above the shoulders.
The hit was on the shoulders/neck. But it did touch the shoulders. Therefore it is legal. I think most of the clotheslines we've seen the last few seasons are uncalled because all of them touch the shoulders in some manner.
I would change the rule to read "a straight arm tackle that is not fully below the shoulders."
Almost every fan instinctively knows the clothesline we saw in that game was a clothesline and should be a penalty. And most want it to be a penalty. But as-written, it's not. So let's make it one. The end result is similar to a horsecollar and as such should be forbidden for player protection.
Anytime a player is tackled by the head it's a foul. That was as blatant a clothesline as there ever has been, the straight arm hooked under the receivers chin and pulled him out of his cleats. It wasn't called because it was missed, but that tackle was totally illegal
Quote from: Pete on August 25, 2024, 05:47:20 PM2. Start calling excessive violence calls. I know we all love to see our team deliver crushing blows, but these are players lives.
People love the return hits, like the Ayers one, and the '19 Hansen one. I'm not sure I want to lose that aspect of the game. The leagues with wimpy "no movement" "no running in opposite directions" kickoffs are so lame it's just a stupid joke. Might as well ban kickoffs and do away with the KR position.
Also, many contact injuries occur on non-heavy hits. Take the Acklin injury. That wasn't a big hit at all. Just tackles/bangs his legs. The problem there is Acklin was doing a 3' vertical at the time and got unlucky on the landing. So you'll never eliminate that type of fluke injury unless you an jumping.
Quote from: Pete on August 25, 2024, 05:47:20 PM4. hits to the unprotected receivers back need to be defined in terms of legality. Ie there's a difference in tackling a receiver and trying to put him into next week (may be same as point 2)
The NFL has the defenseless R rules, right? CFL could look at instituting those. However, NFL allows way more hand-fighting to even it out. If you ban defenseless R hits, then the Rs may have way too much of an advantage.
Quote from: Pete on August 25, 2024, 05:47:20 PM5. early hits to the back of dbs need to be called for pi even if it may not fall under the clear and obvious category. Its not only unfair to the receiver who has little chance to make reception but they aren't braced for it
That was my main point: because command will not not overturn 90% of non-DPIs, DBs can be much more aggressive. It'll pay to basically hit early every time because unless a ref sees it live, and decides it's "enough" to flag, you'll get away with it. Already starting to see this in games. We should jump on board and coach our DBs to come in that half second earlier every play, especially on those from-behind-at-catch-time hits.
I've never been one of the "safety above all else" fans, that's for sure. There has to be a balance. However, something has changed in the CFL as in-game injuries seem to be skyrocketing? We need to know why and then see if tweaks can help. Going back to 2023 command guidelines would help IMHO.
Quote from: dd on August 26, 2024, 02:28:32 AMAnytime a player is tackled by the head it's a foul. That was as blatant a clothesline as there ever has been, the straight arm hooked under the receivers chin and pulled him out of his cleats. It wasn't called because it was missed, but that tackle was totally illegal
That takedown happened so fast it's hard to tell exactly what happened, I've seen it 3 times but without slow motion still can't tell. TSN of course ignored it and didn't bother to reshow or slow it down.
Hard to tell?? How does a player completely change directions if he isn't clotheslined, it just can't happen. You hit a guy across the numbers with a straight arm and nothing happens, hook him under the chin and he flips just like Wilson did. You don't need a slo mo replay, It's simple physics and common sense man.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 26, 2024, 02:37:00 AMThat takedown happened so fast it's hard to tell exactly what happened, I've seen it 3 times but without slow motion still can't tell. TSN of course ignored it and didn't bother to reshow or slow it down.
I studied it in freezeframe and slowmo on my computer and 100% his arm touches the shoulders (at least the top of them). By the rule definition I quoted, that's not a clothesline. If it touches the shoulders at all then it is not, by definition, above the shoulders.
The rule should be changed, because we all see the end result and it's the same as (fully) above the shoulders.
I'm in favor of more rules and enforcement to make the game safer for the receivers. I think it's time to find ways to tone down the hits. Hitting on receivers in the CFL and Pro Football in general is becoming increasingly violent. It used to be that getting to the ball before the receiver was the primary goal. Now it's "separating the ball from the receiver" by hitting him full speed while he's focusing on trying to catch the ball. The d-backs are getting faster, and they're hitting harder and harder. I think we are seeing more serious injuries. We're seeing a lot more writhing on the ground after hits, by both the hitter and hittee. Sure, they may get up and walk off eventually, but those collisions are going to have a lifetime effect on the players. It's not a good trend.
But, as long as men are willing to play this game, and the roars from the crowd continue when there's a violent collision, change is going to be slow. I'm not trying to be holier than thou here. I roar as much as the next guy, because it is exciting. But I am also becoming more concerned for the players at the same time.
So, back to the d-backs and receivers. I suggest the d-back must either make an attempt at touching the ball or he has to let the receiver make an attempt at catching the ball, and if he does catch the ball, you have to let him take one step with ball before you can hit or tackle him. It's a start.
I think the stupidest play that currently happens is the "pull the ball carrier backwards by his feet out of the pile" bullcrap. A DB or LB goes past the LOS, and grabs the feet of the player after yards are gained, and tries to pull them back to chnage the spot.
This should be an immediate UR call, and a misconduct. It is not a football play, and ankles/knees can be irreparable damaged on that play.
We saw it happen to Streveler, and I saw it at least twice this weekend on short yardage plays.
Its just stupid.
Ask Collaros what he thinks about this question.
2018
" TORONTO — Commissioner Randy Ambrosie admitted Monday the CFL dropped the ball regarding how it handled defensive lineman Odell Willis's helmet-to-helmet hit on quarterback Zach Collaros on Saturday.
Willis delivered the hit on Collaros in the first quarter of the Saskatchewan Roughriders' 35-16 win over the B.C. Lions. There was no flag thrown on the play, and only after the Riders challenged was an unnecessary roughness penalty called.
What's more, Collaros, who has a history of concussions, was allowed to remain in the game despite twice having to squat down to compose himself. He left later for precautionary reasons and didn't return.
The CFL admitted in a statement released over the weekend that Willis should've been flagged for the hit and the Riders shouldn't have had to use a challenge. It also added its injury spotter should've not allowed Collaros to remain in the contest and Willis could face league discipline as a result of the incident.
Ambrosie reiterated all of those points Monday, saying the league's response to the hit "was clearly inadequate."
"I am committed to removing reckless and dangerous play from our game," he said. "The fact that we did not respond adequately is not acceptable to me."
As I searched this there is another article about a different dirty hit on Zach.
I am far from an expert, but my feeling is Nothing has changed, there have been several late hits on Zach this season, no penalty.
I wonder if his struggles lately are related to the dirty hits he's taken over his career and this season.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 26, 2024, 03:22:36 AMI studied it in freezeframe and slowmo on my computer and 100% his arm touches the shoulders (at least the top of them). By the rule definition I quoted, that's not a clothesline. If it touches the shoulders at all then it is not, by definition, above the shoulders.
The rule should be changed, because we all see the end result and it's the same as (fully) above the shoulders.
I agree. I've played tackle football and taken a player down in that fashion without it being a clothesline. I would like to see a few freeze frame shots to confirm.
Generally I would think a clothesline would slide up under the face mask and knock the helmet off the player. IIRC that didn't happen and therefore base the hit as across the shoulder pads.
I'm willing to reconsider that view with some video evidence to proves otherwise.
Noting that it wasn't called and it wasn't challenged?
EDIT: just re-watched the play 32 or 4 times. It happens so fast and nothing is evident live. Didn't see any adjustment of the helmet or any reaction from Wilson indicating pain, injury or being upset in the manner taken down. You'd think at least some of that would have happened with a blow above the shoulder pads.
Agree with Bombf the hits on recievers are becoming excessively violent,
I reiterate there needs to be an excessive force penalty, it borders on intent to injure when a player isnt in position to brace or defend himself and a tackler hits him full speed.
The game has changed with the added athletiscm, the emphasis of safety and this also needs adjusted
Quote from: Pete on August 26, 2024, 05:47:25 PMAgree with Bombf the hits on recievers are becoming excessively violent,
I reiterate there needs to be an excessive force penalty, it borders on intent to injure when a player isnt in position to brace or defend himself and a tackler hits him full speed.
The game has changed with the added athletiscm, the emphasis of safety and this also needs adjusted
Agree, the DB's are ganging up to bully and intimidate individual receivers as a group. You could see it with Schoen, first year nobody paid much attention to him, second year each reception was met with a maximin force smackdown, sometime from multiple DB's. End result by season's end he was physically too beat up to play. See if the same strategy isn't employed to knock the vinegar out of Pokey. One solution is to find more receivers like Manny, Nic Lewis and Bailey who can give back more than they receive.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 26, 2024, 06:11:57 PMAgree, the DB's are ganging up to bully and intimidate individual receivers as a group. You could see it with Schoen, first year nobody paid much attention to him, second year each reception was met with a maximin force smackdown, sometime from multiple DB's. End result by season's end he was physically too beat up to play. See if the same strategy isn't employed to knock the vinegar out of Pokey. One solution is to find more receivers like Manny, Nic Lewis and Bailey who can give back more than they receive.
I don't think that is new. Every team wants a " run to the ball " attitude. The more success a receiver has, the more attention he'll get.
Bombers do the same thing. It's not unusual to see 2 or 3 DB's or LB's arrive at the same spot on the field. They aren't there to congratulate the receiver. They are there to prevent a reception.
Now I'm not condoning dirty, late or unnecessary hits. But when the ball is in play, maximum effort will be given to prevent a reception.
Receivers elevate and leave themselves exposed, often from behind. It's the nature of the game and I don't know what else a DB is supposed to do. If he doesn't hit a receiver in mid back ( for example ), if he goes low then we see an Acklin or Lawler type landing on the head / neck.
Ultimately it's not a soft landing in either scenario.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 26, 2024, 07:17:28 PMI don't think that is new. Every team wants a " run to the ball " attitude. The more success a receiver has, the more attention he'll get.
Bombers do the same thing. It's not unusual to see 2 or 3 DB's or LB's arrive at the same spot on the field. They aren't there to congratulate the receiver. They are there to prevent a reception.
Now I'm not condoning dirty, late or unnecessary hits. But when the ball is in play, maximum effort will be given to prevent a reception.
Receivers elevate and leave themselves exposed, often from behind. It's the nature of the game and I don't know what else a DB is supposed to do. If he doesn't hit a receiver in mid back ( for example ), if he goes low then we see an Acklin or Lawler type landing on the head / neck.
Ultimately it's not a soft landing in either scenario.
True enough but the CFL has to protect their assets, nobody buys a ticket to watch a DB play. Put an excessive force penalty in place and defenders will think twice before smashing a player at full speed. They used to allow that in hockey too, but now they don't.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 26, 2024, 08:22:08 PMTrue enough but the CFL has to protect their assets, nobody buys a ticket to watch a DB play. Put an excessive force penalty in place and defenders will think twice before smashing a player at full speed. They used to allow that in hockey too, but now they don't.
I'd be in favour of some sort of limit on those kinds of tackles where a player is particularly vulnerable. The problem is it becomes a grey area that the ref has to determine. Some tackles from the front or from the side in traffic are also not always seen by the offensive player.
Those of an older generation will remember this intro:
https://x.com/super70ssports/status/1828169464082489662?s=46&t=8CnDJGqaCBCZBxQBGwVX4Q
Player safety - what's that?
Quote from: theaardvark on August 26, 2024, 03:37:46 PMI think the stupidest play that currently happens is the "pull the ball carrier backwards by his feet out of the pile" bullcrap. A DB or LB goes past the LOS, and grabs the feet of the player after yards are gained, and tries to pull them back to chnage the spot.
But I've never seen anyone get injured by the SY pile pull-back trick. They are just trying to stop forward progress. Often the refs will let that SY play run for ages before a whistle and any extra inch the QB gets could put them over the line.
If you don't wrap up and stop progress, how many times have we seen a QB roll off or spin move or go to the edge to get the yardage?
However, purposeful twisting of ankles a la Wynn/Strev should be penalized. They did that to Kenny on the last drive of the last game, go check it out.
Quote from: markf on August 26, 2024, 05:06:35 PMI am far from an expert, but my feeling is Nothing has changed, there have been several late hits on Zach this season, no penalty.
There were a lot of extra rules added to give the QB special status and protection, and not just in the pocket, but everywhere on the field. QB now enjoys special and unique head protection anywhere. And they do regularly enforce it.
But yes, in some ways, especially for non-QB players, protection doesn't seem to have improved, and their injury odds have possibly gotten worse lately.
Quote from: Pete on August 26, 2024, 05:47:25 PMAgree with Bombf the hits on recievers are becoming excessively violent,
I reiterate there needs to be an excessive force penalty, it borders on intent to injure when a player isnt in position to brace or defend himself and a tackler hits him full speed.
The game has changed with the added athletiscm, the emphasis of safety and this also needs adjusted
This is the key discussion, I think. Are Rs getting injured more than they used to? If so, why is this?
Is it increased beef/talent/hostility of DBs/LBs? Is it increased fragility of Rs? Both? Neither?
I suspect you may be correct that D players are "improving" at a faster pace than Rs. And recent review guideline changes aren't helping to keep them "clean" and "honest".
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 26, 2024, 06:11:57 PMOne solution is to find more receivers like Manny, Nic Lewis and Bailey who can give back more than they receive.
Or Cottoy. Did you see how many DBs had to hit and tear at him to bring him down? Good stuff. And to a lesser extent, McInnis.
Maybe Clercius can be like our Cottoy. Not quite as big, but lots of beef and sinew. Even with Woli back, unless the ratio allows it to be Lucky, I expect Clercius becomes our dressed backup R.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 26, 2024, 08:22:08 PMTrue enough but the CFL has to protect their assets, nobody buys a ticket to watch a DB play.
I do! :D :D :D :D
But I'm strange. 8)
Some of my favorite Bomber memories are DBs: Moe, Fogg, Heath, Randle, Taylor, Alford, Nichols, Houston. We finally started winning under Mafia once our DB talent improved, not before.