Blue Bombers Forum

After the Alexander sideline-tiptoe TD @SSK, there's going to be more controversy league-wide.  I propose they instantly ditch all the new standards and knee-jerk reactions/changes and revert to the 2023 standards.  They weren't great, but they were miles better than the garbage all teams have had to face the last few weeks (WPG included).

And it can be done overnight because none of these standards are in the rulebook.  They are all being handled with "guidance" from the league.  So "guide" them back to 2023.

But you're invited to argue if you feel otherwise!  Is there anything good about the "new command" this season?  Air your beef.

Also, discuss other possible solutions and/or what exactly are the root causes of the fan disdain.

For reference, see the MTL@SSK GDT where this topic starts (approx):
http://forums.bluebombers.com/index.php?topic=55923.msg1634523#msg1634523

I will add that command's new standard will probably "up" the O: one of the stated goals of Ambrosie.

Devil's advocate:

Remember that catch in the BC game where our guy (Pokey?) made a circus catch and on replay it clearly hit the turf and was incomplete?  But it was ruled complete.  Under the new standard command probably upholds that catch.  (It wasn't challenged, so we will never know.)

So fans get to enjoy more circus catches and more O.  It always would suck when command would take away some crazy sick Lawler or Burnham catch because of one little mistake during the catch/fall process.  But we accepted it because rules are rules.

Under this new standard command would likely give Bailey his 2019 GC TD catch...

So do we want "entertainment", or "correct"?  (I know my choice, but the other may be valid also.)

The controversy started with the Bombers vs Sask game a month+ ago. TWO OBVIOUS PHANTOM Calls not reversed....BUSH LEAGUE! Had a MAJOR IMPACT on the final outcome. The referees involved with that fiasco should all be canned immediately. Also who hired them was WAY OFF BASE in their recruitment talents. GM's and Scouts of teams would be canned eventually with such brutal recruitment.

I can forgive one or two gaffes, but it seems this nonsense keeps repeating and I'm not sure if it is the same refs on the field or in the command centre lousing things up. Don't be BUSH LEAGUE! ;)

Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 17, 2024, 07:17:48 AMThe controversy started with the Bombers vs Sask game a month+ ago. TWO OBVIOUS PHANTOM Calls not reversed....BUSH LEAGUE!
[...]
I can forgive one or two gaffes, but it seems this nonsense keeps repeating and I'm not sure if it is the same refs on the field or in the command centre lousing things up. Don't be BUSH LEAGUE! ;)

You're missing the point.  These aren't mistakes by command per se, they are clearly not overturning subjective calls because they have decided slowmo/freezeframe cannot be used.

They are working to a whole new standard and either everyone is forced to get used to it, or we need to raise a big stink on all forums so Ambrosie can see how mad the fans are and reverse course.

I think your gist is letting clearly wrong calls stand makes things appear more BUSH LEAGUE.  I agree.

Great comment from Bioben on Riderfans:

"The last drunk command centre decision did not lose us the game. What it did though was prove that the command centre has not improved the games for fans. It is disruptive inconsistent and makes the game less exciting to watch. It becomes the main topic of conversation during and after the games. The game of football itself becomes secondary."

Nailed it.  The CFL chatter will blow up this week not because of great play or players, but because of obviously incorrect calls.  That diminishes our league.

We're spending so much time trying to figure out command's mindset instead of admiring great plays.  And before you say it's pointless, you better believe MOS/WFC are studying everything we are and more, because they are the ones that have to chuck those challenge flags that may make or break a game.

The role of the CC is to fix obvious mistakes. 

Last night the ref on the field in real time thought the foot was in. The CC took a quick look & agreed. They also overturned an obvious incomplete pass that would have been a turn over. 

Did the calls cost the Riders the win? Not in my opinion. Their kicker did that pretty much all by himself.

It appeared that Alexander's foot was in. Saw a small amount of green between his foot and the sideline. Certainly nothing conclusive enough to over turn the call on field.

Quote from: Blue In BC on August 17, 2024, 01:11:41 PMIt appeared that Alexander's foot was in. Saw a small amount of green between his foot and the sideline. Certainly nothing conclusive enough to over turn the call on field.

It was out. There are picture on twitter.

The command centre has been really bad this year. You can't rely on them to get the call right at all.

How long are folks willing to wait to 'get it right'? 1 Minute, 5 Minutes, 10 Minutes? 

Techno's screen cuts look right, but how long did it take him? 1 Minute, 5 Minutes, 10 Minutes? 

I think pretending there was ever a time of consistency is laughable.

People were unsatisfied with the consistency, so it changed. So it will again.

no matter what the command center does if it doesn't favor you team the fans will have a problem with it (just pay a visit to the rider forum, for example the obvious incomplete pass that was initially ruled an interception rider fans were calling it a conspiracy even with the video proof)
I have to feel for the officials.  they are told if there's any possibility of doubt to let the play go on and it can be corrected afterwards. However the command center is told to not overturn any calls unless its an obvious mistake. So if the official thinks it's a fumble and is 90% sure from his angle 5 feet away, he lets it play through and the cc doesn't overturn it cause from the video feeds it may not be obvious, a bad call stands.
  To me we have to let the officials make the calls and each team has to live with it. If an obvious miscall is made then it should be overturned and the ball placed where the infraction occured or awarded to the correct team. Eliminate challenges all together because that is where the slow motion zoom in  debates really happen.

Entertainment for you:

https://x.com/cflfan13/status/1824769638158283136?s=46&t=8CnDJGqaCBCZBxQBGwVX4Q

Last year seemed to be a much lower talking point but this year....not so much. :D

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on August 17, 2024, 09:35:28 PMLast year seemed to be a much lower talking point but this year....not so much. :D

We are in a bad run right now and hopefully it's a clean game on Sunday.

Quote from: peg_city on August 17, 2024, 01:48:46 PMIt was out. There are picture on twitter.

The command centre has been really bad this year. You can't rely on them to get the call right at all.

If you just watch the video and freeze it the moment he made the step on the line, he was in.

Later, people broke it down and saw that as he pushed off from that step, his foot rotated and that's the point where it looks like he could have slid out (still subject to the camera angle debate).

But for the command centre to make the call in the time they have, it was not even controversial, imo.

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 17, 2024, 02:30:37 PMHow long are folks willing to wait to 'get it right'? 1 Minute, 5 Minutes, 10 Minutes?

Techno's screen cuts look right, but how long did it take him? 1 Minute, 5 Minutes, 10 Minutes?

Again, I knew within 10s of being able to get into freezeframe mode that his foot was out.  Command often takes 1-3 mins to decide questionable TDs.  They had plenty of time under normal time limits.

I guess some might not understand how easy good technology makes this?  Maybe I should do a YT video of myself showing & explaining how my tech works?  If all you have is the Shaw PVR then you don't understand how computers make reviews like this trivial.

Quote from: Pete on August 17, 2024, 03:13:45 PMEliminate challenges all together because that is where the slow motion zoom in  debates really happen.

No.  Then you get the NFL where entirely fake DPI is called in a Falcons superbowl that allows the game to be rigged for Vegas and no one can do anything about it at all.

I want teams to have ways to ensure the refs are not paid off (superbowls) or stealing games for their home team (CGY no-end ref).

That is why I firmly believe MOS should almost always keep his challenge until mid-4th Q.  Unless he's 10000% sure he'll win, even based on the new lame command standards.

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on August 17, 2024, 09:35:28 PMLast year seemed to be a much lower talking point but this year....not so much. :D

Yes, 100% my point.  2021-2023 had a few gripes but we really had it great compared to this shambles of a command center year.

Quote from: The Zipp on August 17, 2024, 09:01:10 PMEntertainment for you:

Great compilation of command shambles!!

Also, watch again and notice the difference in lighting between all the other stadiums vs the OTT stadium!  Wow... it's crazy noticeable when shown back to back like this!  CFL do something about that lighting!!

Quote from: The Zipp on August 17, 2024, 09:41:27 PMWe are in a bad run right now and hopefully it's a clean game on Sunday.

Would you bet on that?   :D  :D  :D

Vegas should put lines on ref and command screwups!!  You'd make a fortune betting on incompetence this season!

Quote from: Jesse on August 17, 2024, 09:45:45 PMIf you just watch the video and freeze it the moment he made the step on the line, he was in.

Later, people broke it down and saw that as he pushed off from that step, his foot rotated and that's the point where it looks like he could have slid out (still subject to the camera angle debate).

But for the command centre to make the call in the time they have, it was not even controversial, imo.

Sorry, but that's a very weird take.  "TSN froze it on the frame that shows it's ok, so it's ok"??  Some pimply kid working the PVR for TSN decides the call based on his (dumb or biased) choice of frame?  That's not how it works.  The TSN frame choice has nothing to do with command's decision.  They get the raw feeds, not the TSN coverage.

If you take 2 pregnancy tests and the first one says non-pregnant, and the second one says pregnant, and you only send the picture of the first one to your significant other... does that mean you're not pregnant?  Half pregnant?

http://forums.bluebombers.com/index.php?msg=1634590

There was no "later people broke it down": Ignore the "people".  Command had all of the angles in realtime and were jog-shuttling them just like I was and clearly saw all of the frames I posted.  AND then they still decided to say he was in-bounds the whole time.

That all takes 10 seconds.  Really, it does.

So command KNEW he was out and then still called it a TD because their new standard is "clear in livetime".  They don't CARE about the freezeframe.  Not that they didn't see it: it's that they don't care.

So the real question is: do we like the new standard or do we want to get it perfect (on a game-winning scoring play)?  It's fine to argue either way, and it's clear you like the new standard.  But don't give command an "out" by saying this is a time or tech issue, because it's not.  It's a conscious choice to get the call wrong if the call requires frame accuracy.

The problem is: the last 5 years they would officiate to frame accuracy.  This new standard is all new to us fans, and thus the huge uproar across the fan base.

Simply, I don't believe there's a new standard. We getting upset at calls at the same rate as we always have, imo.

Quote from: Jesse on August 18, 2024, 03:07:19 AMSimply, I don't believe there's a new standard. We getting upset at calls at the same rate as we always have, imo.

Uh... you did watch all 7 games so far in the last 2 weeks?  TSN booth guys have been chattering about the new standards in every single game.  They are relaying all the league's new guidelines bit by bit every chance they can get.  Basically, whenever there's an iffy play or a challenge or review they are reminding viewers that command won't try to "get it right" using all available tech/frames/zooms anymore like they did last year.

For instance, they did so again in the EDM@HAM game tonight.  Outlining how it has to be clear and obvious in realtime with no slowmo and no zooms.

I guarantee you without a doubt there is a "new standard" ever since The Neverending SSK@OTT game and the spate of blown-dead-fumbles (which elicited yet another "new standard" they spelled out for us which is to basically always let fumbles play out, which we saw in this week's SSK game).

Just because I don't think we've seen the official CFL memo, doesn't mean it isn't clear they are working to new guidelines.

The biggest problem is that the league didn't release an official statement to the public (AFAIK) outlining precisely what the new standard is.  All we get is the leaks from the press and TSN people.

No one has made it clear that the new standard is a radical departure from the standards of the last 10 years.  Thus fans get mad when what made sense last year no longer makes sense this year.

The league should have been (and still can be) more transparent by releasing the full text of the guideline changes, and being clear about the implications vis a vis freezeframe vs realtime.  I think they need to come out and explicitly tell everyone to completely forget everything we know about how command will rule in the past.  They ripped up the old guideline book, so come out and say so.

If we assume for a second that command knew Alexander was 100% for sure OOB, who here thinks 2023 command would uphold that TD?  I would bet my entire fortune upon the fact that 2023 command overturns that TD.  It's this simple fact that is upsetting fans... they aren't aware we are in a radical new world.

But to their credit: command has been 100% consistent with his new standard this week and last.  We even saw our first overturned non-DPI in the @HAM game (because it was obvious in realtime).

If he's not out in real time, then he's not out.

It's the same standard as, if it's not PI in real time, then it's not PI. 

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 18, 2024, 03:35:31 PMIf he's not out in real time, then he's not out.

It's the same standard as, if it's not PI in real time, then it's not PI.

I wouldn't say that is exactly true. Refs miss some calls on the field. It's why we get successful challenges often. Whether the CC should overturn a call that wasn't challenged is a different question.

Take the Rider / Redblack game where the turnover review determined a roughing the passer. I don't know how the call on the field could miss that and believe the penalty was correct in the spirit of the game.

Quote from: Blue In BC on August 18, 2024, 03:39:52 PMI wouldn't say that is exactly true. Refs miss some calls on the field. It's why we get successful challenges often. Whether the CC should overturn a call that wasn't challenged is a different question.

Take the Rider / Redblack game where the turnover review determined a roughing the passer. I don't know how the call on the field could miss that and believe the penalty was correct in the spirit of the game.

I didn't mean that the CC shouldn't overturn Ref's mistakes. 

The standard for PI is: 'if it wasn't PI without going to slow mo or super slo mo then it's not PI' 
The standard for in or out should be 'If you can't tell if the player was in or out without going frame by frame, then go with the call on the field'.

Such a complex problem to fix, this year has been a big issue. Have seen officiating issues for as long as I can remember in different forms.  Hopefully we can improve.  Tough spot now.  Consistency is key.  Almost impossible to achieve.

Quote from: peg_city on August 17, 2024, 01:48:46 PMIt was out. There are picture on twitter.

Fake pictures.LOL he was in bounds as per TV replay.

These "issues" have cast a spotlight on the command center and officials...they are going to need a couple of weeks of no controversy to not be in this light.

  Hopefully tonight is a clean, hard fought game with no big reason to go to the command centre.  That's what will be best for the CFL right now - forgetting they even exist is what needs to happen. 

I thought Duane Ford had a good comment, the game isn't played in slow motion, it shouldn't be officiated that way. Don't start trying to get it exact, cause where does it stop. Every play you could call a holding penalty, or a jostle could cause a interference call.
I hate the nhl call where a goal is reversed cause 2 minutes prior a players back skate was an inch over the line, it wasnt why they introduced video reviews and its the same in the cfl.
It results in a lot of wasted time on a call taking away from discussions on a lot of great plays that were made in the game.
(The only real positive is that it makes the rider fan nuts)

When they first showed the replay, you can clearly see the foot out of bounds, immediately after TSN freeze framed the wrong frame. I saw this the first time through, and we rewound the game on the cable box and confirmed immediately. All four of us watching agreed that it should have been an easy-out call. This took about 5 seconds to rewind on the Shaw cable box. I snapped a shot of the TV with my phone, but I think others have already posted similar photos.

I think the only reason there's any fan dispute is due to the incorrect frame being frozen by TSN.

Do we actually know that a standard has changed? I wonder if the personnel have simply changed?

Quote from: Horseman on August 18, 2024, 06:21:34 PMFake pictures. LOL he was in bounds as per TV replay.

Are you calling the pictures I provided "fake"?  I can assure you they are not in the slightest.

I have absolutely no reason, as a WPG fan, to help SSK.  In fact, I have every reason to try to help MTL win, because any SSK loss helps WPG in the standings.  And I hate the Greenies.  So what's my motive?

Ya, some rando on twitter with bad phone pics might have a reason to photoshop.  Me, not so much.

I think I've provided enough screengrabs over the years here to earn a bit of rep/cred.

Quote from: Pete on August 18, 2024, 07:16:14 PMI thought Duane Ford had a good comment, the game isn't played in slow motion, it shouldn't be officiated that way. Don't start trying to get it exact, cause where does it stop.

That's all well and good, but that's the direct opposite to what command has done from 2018-2023.  It's a complete 180 without proper explanations and press releases to the fans.  Oh, there's that transparency thing again.

Ford and you have a great point and it's worth arguing.  Lucky for you that's precisely what command is doing right now!  We're just not used to it yet (if this is the way it has to be).

P.S. Ford has held that position forever... he's been saying it for many years from the booth.  It's only now he's finally gotten his way.

Quote from: pdirks67 on August 18, 2024, 08:42:05 PMDo we actually know that a standard has changed? I wonder if the personnel have simply changed?

If we assume all the leaks and chatter by the TSN booth and panel guys/gals is correct, then yes, the standard has totally changed.  Almost every game since the MTL "no immediate recovery" mess the talking heads have been telling us about the "new command" directives.

But I haven't seen an official press release by the CFL or statement to the fans.  I would love to see the official memo or guidelines!

It seems clear from the last 2 weeks of reviews that they are 100% calling plays to a new standard that does not include freezeframes.  They also will not second guess a called DPI.  Hopefully they will if it's horrifically egregious like the DB never coming within a yard of the R... but they haven't yet!

From 3DownNation
https://3downnation.com/2024/08/22/cfl-command-centre-refocuses-on-clear-and-obvious-principle-in-decision-making-process/ (https://3downnation.com/2024/08/22/cfl-command-centre-refocuses-on-clear-and-obvious-principle-in-decision-making-process/)

CFL command centre refocuses on 'clear and obvious principle' in decision-making process

The Canadian Football League has issued new guidelines for its command centre for the second half of the 2024 season, focusing on what they are calling the "clear and obvious principle."

In order to overturn calls on the field, replay officials must have a clear, unobstructed view of the action in question, and the correct outcome must be obvious when compared to an established standard created by the rules committee and the CFL officiating department.

In order to improve performance and consistency, the league has enacted several changes in consultation with team presidents, general managers, and head coaches. In addition to a greater emphasis on the clear and obvious principle, the command centre will only intervene when an obvious error has been made and a correction can be made without significant delay.

In addition, the roster of replay officials has been greatly reduced, with enhanced evaluations coming into effect to improve accountability and learning.

The command centre has been the subject of a number of controversial calls throughout the 2024 season. In Week 9, an obvious fumble by Ticats' fullback Jame Tuck was not awarded to the Montreal Alouettes, despite what appeared to be a clear recovery. In Week 10, an overtime clash between Ottawa and Saskatchewan had to be restarted after the final whistle when a roughing the passer penalty was retroactively awarded against the Riders, who were already celebrating a victory.

Efforts were made to quietly change the focus of replay officials in Week 11 but debate still raged after Alouettes' quarterback Davis Alexander was ruled in bounds on a game-winning touchdown run against Saskatchewan, despite video evidence suggesting he stepped out.

The CFL implemented video review in 2006, giving coaches two challenges per game. On-field officials initially conducted the reviews on the sideline, though this practice was discontinued in 2009 following the introduction of a central command centre headquartered at the league office in Toronto. Challenges were limited to one per coach in 2017, with a second added if successful on the first beginning in 2019.

According to the league, the command centre will undergo a comprehensive review as part of the standard offseason agenda.

Quote from: pdirks67 on August 22, 2024, 10:06:15 PMFrom 3DownNation
https://3downnation.com/2024/08/22/cfl-command-centre-refocuses-on-clear-and-obvious-principle-in-decision-making-process/ (https://3downnation.com/2024/08/22/cfl-command-centre-refocuses-on-clear-and-obvious-principle-in-decision-making-process/)

CFL command centre refocuses on 'clear and obvious principle' in decision-making process

The Canadian Football League has issued new guidelines for its command centre for the second half of the 2024 season, focusing on what they are calling the "clear and obvious principle."

In order to overturn calls on the field, replay officials must have a clear, unobstructed view of the action in question, and the correct outcome must be obvious when compared to an established standard created by the rules committee and the CFL officiating department.

In order to improve performance and consistency, the league has enacted several changes in consultation with team presidents, general managers, and head coaches. In addition to a greater emphasis on the clear and obvious principle, the command centre will only intervene when an obvious error has been made and a correction can be made without significant delay.

In addition, the roster of replay officials has been greatly reduced, with enhanced evaluations coming into effect to improve accountability and learning.

The command centre has been the subject of a number of controversial calls throughout the 2024 season. In Week 9, an obvious fumble by Ticats' fullback Jame Tuck was not awarded to the Montreal Alouettes, despite what appeared to be a clear recovery. In Week 10, an overtime clash between Ottawa and Saskatchewan had to be restarted after the final whistle when a roughing the passer penalty was retroactively awarded against the Riders, who were already celebrating a victory.

Efforts were made to quietly change the focus of replay officials in Week 11 but debate still raged after Alouettes' quarterback Davis Alexander was ruled in bounds on a game-winning touchdown run against Saskatchewan, despite video evidence suggesting he stepped out.

The CFL implemented video review in 2006, giving coaches two challenges per game. On-field officials initially conducted the reviews on the sideline, though this practice was discontinued in 2009 following the introduction of a central command centre headquartered at the league office in Toronto. Challenges were limited to one per coach in 2017, with a second added if successful on the first beginning in 2019.

According to the league, the command centre will undergo a comprehensive review as part of the standard offseason agenda.

Why hasn't the cfl posted this clarification on their twitter account?

Quote from: The Zipp on August 22, 2024, 10:53:14 PMWhy hasn't the cfl posted this clarification on their twitter account?

Because there's zero transparency.  Secret memos from CFL to teams every week with secret changes to standards.  Us plebes only get the leaked out dregs, if we're lucky, passed through 5 sources in a perverted game of Telephone.

Yay CFL!

Quote from: pdirks67 on August 22, 2024, 10:06:15 PMEfforts were made to quietly change the focus of replay officials in Week 11 but debate still raged after Alouettes' quarterback Davis Alexander was ruled in bounds on a game-winning touchdown run against Saskatchewan, despite video evidence suggesting he stepped out.

"suggesting"!  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P

Ya, see my screen grabs, command!

Just admit the new standard vis a vis freezeframe!!  Just come out and say it!

"In addition, the roster of replay officials has been greatly reduced, with enhanced evaluations coming into effect to improve accountability and learning."

I like having fewer cooks in the kitchen. Would love to see the "report cards".

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 22, 2024, 11:21:46 PM"suggesting"!  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P

Ya, see my screen grabs, command!

Just admit the new standard vis a vis freezeframe!!  Just come out and say it!

So did he actually step out Tecno?  I think I posted earlier (or meant to) that the video on tv showed he was in bounds, and the other angle that seemed to show out of bounds could have been lifting his foot after and so not technically out of bounds as it was in the air.

With your video prowess (serious comment, not being a smart-@**), could you see he was actually out?

Quote from: Waffler on August 23, 2024, 12:31:19 AMI like having fewer cooks in the kitchen. Would love to see the "report cards".

They need to go back to having ONE (1) cook in the kitchen, like it always was before.  I don't know when they started rotating chief review official, but they need to stop it.  It's dumb.  The way of thinking needs to be the same every single week.

Quote from: Big Daddy on August 23, 2024, 01:35:03 AMSo did he actually step out Tecno?  I think I posted earlier (or meant to) that the video on tv showed he was in bounds, and the other angle that seemed to show out of bounds could have been lifting his foot after and so not technically out of bounds as it was in the air.

With your video prowess (serious comment, not being a smart-@**), could you see he was actually out?

Yes 100%, go read that game's GDT, maybe the last 3-4 pages.  See my pictures.

I don't care about the shots showing him in-bounds, they aren't catching the exact tenth of a second he was out.  There is no "foot was up" issue as every shot of him OOB shoes his foot scrunched as he launches off his toes.

Quote from: DM83 on August 23, 2024, 05:02:00 AMThey just have to get guys who know the rules.

Sounds so simple, eh?!   :D  :D  :D

I don't care if the refs botch a few, as long as it's not malicious/rigged... but I really want a command that can get things right.  I really liked 2023 command...

The reviews tonight vs HAM further 100% proved my theory that freeze-frame is not going to enter into the equation under these new guidelines.  At the game I called the results of all the reviews with 100% accuracy, without even having my computer PVR (obviously).

Booth guys are still surprised when they shouldn't be.

Last season that BA37 INT would have been overturned as an INT.  Right now: nope.  MOS needs to read what I am writing because clearly most HCs don't understand what command is doing.  Either that or he just wanted to take a stab at it because there was only 5 mins left (although there was a possible DPI later we might have had a better case for).

Same with the uncalled DPI HAM challenged.  Never going to be overturned now.  Only 1 DPI has been overturned on challenge since the new guidelines, and that one was so blatant to the whole world in realtime that it had to be overturned.

You simply are not, in 90%+ of cases, going to get command to overrule the on-field refs.  On-field refs are like demi-gods now, wielding great power, instead of the peons they were previously.

P.S. The challenged non-DPI near the end was not DPI (because he released the jersey with 1-3 secs to spare) but may have been OPI because of the full-extended-arm push-off.  2023 command likely keeps it non-DPI but may have tacked on OPI... though the OPI was a bit weak, with bad angles.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 24, 2024, 12:57:13 PMgoing to get command to overrule the on-field refs

That's the problem.

I think we should start a second command centre to review the calls of the first one.

Not sure "clear and obvious" is the level of detection in the case of a challenge.

"Clear and Obvious" is what the EITS should be calling down without a challenge.

When there is a challenge, you need more depth.  The Alexander INT not only was a blown call on the field, its an illogical call from Command Centre.  The reception cannot stand.  Its either an INT or incomplete after review.  Because the one thing definite in the play is that the receiver did not catch the ball.

Bang Bang plays, sure, we don't need super slow mo to decide PI.  Let those rulings stand.

But where possession is concerned, super slow mo shows who has the ball and when.  And THAT is the key.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 24, 2024, 02:25:40 PMI think we should start a second command centre to review the calls of the first one.

Brilliant!  I like it.

Or maybe give ever STH across the league a little box where they can vote on a challenge.  Refs/command can put the salient bullet points and camera angles up on TSN for 1 min, then everyone votes.  If 80% of the STH fan base agrees on something, that's the result!

Maybe to be fair when it's large-fanbase (SSK) vs small-fanbase (TOR) the STH of the 2 playing teams are excluded.

If 80% don't agree, then command does their normal thing, and command decides.

Half the not-DPIs that were flagged would have been overturned if it was the fans deciding, because there was such a fan consensus.  The MTL OOB problem likely would be overturned (again, with sufficient camera views).

The BA37 thing... probably would only garner 50% support as it was pretty complex and ambiguous (though I think its a TO).

Quote from: theaardvark on August 24, 2024, 10:42:43 PMWhen there is a challenge, you need more depth.  The Alexander INT not only was a blown call on the field, its an illogical call from Command Centre.  The reception cannot stand.  Its either an INT or incomplete after review.  Because the one thing definite in the play is that the receiver did not catch the ball.

I fully agree and was just talking about this with another fan in person today!  Normal reviews can be realtime-only, great.  But the challenge should be like a golden ticket to a deeper dive.  A challenge should buy you 2023-level review, where freezeframe and slowmo are taken into account.  They should get it "right", not "good enough and fast".

This shouldn't be a "guideline", it should be explicitly stated by the CFL: Challenges are special.  It would make a lot of fans (and HCs) a lot happier.  I won't hold my breath.

Quote from: theaardvark on August 24, 2024, 10:42:43 PMBut where possession is concerned, super slow mo shows who has the ball and when.  And THAT is the key.

There have been other turnovers and scores where they clearly didn't take slowmo/freeze into account at all.  I've been arguing with the Riderfans about this for a couple of weeks.  It seems clear command is doing what I posit.  I see no indication there is anything other than realtime being taken into account anymore.

Look at the early OTT TD in the game tonight vs BC.  On the 2PAT there is pretty clear DPI by 2023 standards.  Dyce is dying to throw that challenge... BUT Dyce just proved he is the first HC to understand the new guidelines are as I say: realtime or it didn't happen.  So he held his flag.

Even with the new standards maybe that one gets overturned because it was pretty early and blocking the arms and grabbing/twisting the jersey.  I'd say 75% they uphold it if he had challenged.  Dyce was smart to not challenge.

I'm noticing that DBs (at least the smart ones) are getting more aggressive and coming in for earlier contact.  That's because almost no un-called DPIs will be overturned upon challenge.  So they can "cheat" just like they can when a HC has lost their challenge already.

If the refs don't catch the early contact (or other issues) in live-time, they'll get away with it 95%+ of the time.

We need to be coaching our DBs up on this, if we haven't already.

This is probably an unexpected byproduct, because this ruins the "more O" mandate of the CFL.  It's going to give us more D, and less points.  That's the last thing Ambrosie wants.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 25, 2024, 02:57:05 AMI'm noticing that DBs (at least the smart ones) are getting more aggressive and coming in for earlier contact.  That's because almost no un-called DPIs will be overturned upon challenge.  So they can "cheat" just like they can when a HC has lost their challenge already.

If the refs don't catch the early contact (or other issues) in live-time, they'll get away with it 95%+ of the time.

We need to be coaching our DBs up on this, if we haven't already.

This is probably an unexpected byproduct, because this ruins the "more O" mandate of the CFL.  It's going to give us more D, and less points.  That's the last thing Ambrosie wants.

They really need to sort this out going forward, they are affecting the outcomes of games by taking away a coach's challenge ability later in the game plus a timeout.  It's especially bad when everyone can see that the coach was right and the onfield official made the wrong call on the play.  With the technology available the mandate has to go back to getting the call right, regardless of what the on-field official saw or missed.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 25, 2024, 02:52:48 AMLook at the early OTT TD in the game tonight vs BC.  On the 2PAT there is pretty clear DPI by 2023 standards.  Dyce is dying to throw that challenge... BUT Dyce just proved he is the first HC to understand the new guidelines are as I say: realtime or it didn't happen.  So he held his flag.

Even with the new standards maybe that one gets overturned because it was pretty early and blocking the arms and grabbing/twisting the jersey.  I'd say 75% they uphold it if he had challenged.  Dyce was smart to not challenge.

Isn't EITS supposed to call down with things like that?

There are only so many on field officials, and they can't be looking at every Rec to make sure they aren't interfered with.  EITS has multiple cameras, assuming at least one per potential target.  If they see an egregious infraction, they are supposed to call it down, right?

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 25, 2024, 03:36:02 PMThey really need to sort this out going forward, they are affecting the outcomes of games by taking away a coach's challenge ability later in the game plus a timeout.  It's especially bad when everyone can see that the coach was right and the onfield official made the wrong call on the play.  With the technology available the mandate has to go back to getting the call right, regardless of what the on-field official saw or missed.

I am in full 100% agreement with you.  Answer YES in this poll!  That was what we were moving towards until the radical departure in command guidelines this season.  Now the on-field ref reigns (nearly) supreme.

It's weird (or maybe not!), but this forum seems to be understanding the "new command" a lot better than Riderfans.  There are so many fans there ignorant of all the command changes and clearly think it is still 2023, and they are really angry about it.  It makes every game look "rigged" to them, when it all is explained away by my hypothesis.  And this after I tried to explain it there too...

Quote from: theaardvark on August 25, 2024, 05:24:51 PMIsn't EITS supposed to call down with things like that?

There are only so many on field officials, and they can't be looking at every Rec to make sure they aren't interfered with.  EITS has multiple cameras, assuming at least one per potential target.  If they see an egregious infraction, they are supposed to call it down, right?

But EITS (who is really just a guy in a seat at command) would not and will not initiate a review of something they know will not be overturned with the new guidelines!

In fact, not only would it have to be something that will over overturned, but it will have to be even more egregious because auto-reviews are supposed to be for dire misses only!

EITS now seems to me to be used more for URs and OCs, and maybe last-3-min stuff.  And for helping refs when they have no clue what happened (like was it OS or IP?).  The new changes basically neuter EITS for most of the game... a clear and obvious goal after The Neverending SSK/OTT game where EITS stepped in like 842 times as fans mobbed the field..