Earlier this season I was lamenting the fact that we hadn't signed Janarion Grant and that losing him, to the Argos no less, would seriously impact our special teams return game.
Well it's halfway through the season and Janarion already has 4 TDs and is on pace for a total of 7 or 8 returns on the season. To date we have zero TDs on STs and albeit our current returner has improved with every outing, he's certainly no JG! The fact that he can play receiver is his biggest asset and why he's currently on our roster. JG is also a receiver and we used him on jet sweeps along with Sheed to keep Ds off balance with our multifaceted running attack, lead by BO.
The Argos are 5-4 without their starting QB and mainly because of their D and STs play so they definitely won the sweepstakes by signing JG this season. We are currently 3-6 and will have to battle for 3rd place with Calgary who still have yet to win on the road as have we.
Not having JG as that X-Factor will be difficult moving forward and we paid a hefty price to retain both Schoen and Brady and then we lost Schoen for the season adding insult to injury! Losing Lawler also exacerbated the situation and hopefully he comes back for our next tilt with the Lions who will be looking to avenge that beating we served them last week.
JG is the best returner in the CFL at the moment, and will likely surpass Brandon Banks as one of the top 5 returners in CFL history. He may never catch Gizmo who is the all time leading returner with 31 however He could be #2 or #3 by the end of his career.
It was short sightedness on our part. If it was injuries we were worried about,do what we should have done ly and find an adequate backup. Either that or sign him and bring in competition and let him go if we have a better alternative.
The lack of competition has limited our options in a number of areas ie punters
Quote from: Pete on August 10, 2024, 06:13:44 PMIt was short sightedness on our part. If it was injuries we were worried about,do what we should have done ly and find an adequate backup. Either that or sign him and bring in competition and let him go if we have a better alternative.
The lack of competition has limited our options in a number of areas ie punters
Had the salary cap been higher we very well may have been able to sign Grant and/or Bailey. Unfortunately we had to be fiscally responsible and make tough decisions that didn't include them.
Quote from: J5V on August 10, 2024, 06:24:15 PMHad the salary cap been higher we very well may have been able to sign Grant and/or Bailey. Unfortunately we had to be fiscally responsible and make tough decisions that didn't include them.
Not really. When the SMS goes up, so does the minimum ELC. Every other player not on an ELC will also try to get more if they reach free agency.
This is not new to any team. A great player going into his 2nd contract gets more: Casey Sayles went to Hamilton for over $200K IIFC. Lawler went to Edmonton for nearly $300K.
In every free agency teams lose out to other teams that will pay more than other teams. Every team will give raises to some top talent of their own.
It's a balancing act. In the case of Grant, it didn't seem like an big difference, but there may have been injury history concerns. We'll never know exactly what the final details were.
Thats the thing grant signed for less than 100k
The injury issue could have been mitigated with proper roster mgmt
I just think we overestimated our scouting ability.
What we don' t know was if Grant wanted to stay or was unhappy with his situation here
Quote from: J5V on August 10, 2024, 06:24:15 PMHad the salary cap been higher we very well may have been able to sign Grant and/or Bailey. Unfortunately we had to be fiscally responsible and make tough decisions that didn't include them.
Had the salary cap gone up more money would have been shovelled into Brady and Dalton's pockets to reward them for signing, as more eggs in fewer baskets was the chosen path forward apparently.
They took a calculated gamble this season and were prepared to make massive change at many positions, hoping the cheaper replacements could measure up to some great performers they let walk away. For the most part they've come up short individually but have done ok as a group in a few areas such as replacing Jeffcoat on the D-line with a number of solid players.
Letting Grant walk for $85k is probably their most serious blunder ever, as he is obviously a generational talent that has shown he can reliably be the difference maker influencing the outcome of games. So what if he misses a few games a season, in the games he plays he still influences more games than a dozen mediocre replacement returners combined!
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 10, 2024, 07:25:11 PMHad the salary cap gone up more money would have been shovelled into Brady and Dalton's pockets to reward them for signing, as more eggs in fewer baskets was the chosen path forward apparently.
They took a calculated gamble this season and were prepared to make massive change at many positions, hoping the cheaper replacements could measure up to some great performers they let walk away. For the most part they've come up short individually but have done ok as a group in a few areas such as replacing Jeffcoat on the D-line with a number of solid players.
Letting Grant walk for $85k is probably their most serious blunder ever, as he is obviously a generational talent that has shown he can reliably be the difference maker influencing the outcome of games. So what if he misses a few games a season, in the games he plays he still influences more games than a dozen mediocre replacement returners combined!
Totally agree. I don't understand the thinking behind letting him go and never will. You don't let a player of his talent and game impact walk for $85k, you find the ways and means to keep him here. If this has taught us anything, is big ticket receivers are over rated, as we can find decent replacements at a fraction of the cost. Not every reciever has to cost you over $200k.
Not sure the cap was 100% the issue. Grant has been a nightmare getting him to sign contracts, during "negotiations", he was no where to be found, even by his agent.
I think by the time he finally decided to entertain offers, we had moved on. Cap might have entered into it since we had signed all of our players by then. No idea how much Pinball offered, but after losing Leake, guessing Grant wrote his own ticket.
This....and I'm not pointing fingers or blaming Bomber management for not being able to re-sign Janarion. He was (for us) and is (for the Argos) still that "X" factor and he's on pace to become the second best returner in CFL history!
He has the ability to turn a game on a dime with his explosive ability to crack a seam in opposing cover teams. It's just a **** shame we couldn't have found a way to retain him....
https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dashaun-amos-janarion-grant-score-key-tds-to-rally-toronto-argonauts-past-calgary-stampeders-1.2160567
Quote from: theaardvark on August 10, 2024, 11:43:10 PMNot sure the cap was 100% the issue. Grant has been a nightmare getting him to sign contracts, during "negotiations", he was no where to be found, even by his agent.
I think by the time he finally decided to entertain offers, we had moved on. Cap might have entered into it since we had signed all of our players by then. No idea how much Pinball offered, but after losing Leake, guessing Grant wrote his own ticket.
Neither was the issue. We divided to move on. It was a mistake. No way around it.
I guess letting Houston walk too would be another gaffe, but Rasheed (at least so far) & Hardrick washed out this season. Nobody else gave Jeffcoat an offer sheet either.
Get Wolli and Lawler back this is still a good O IF they come back healthy and play to their capabilities. LB Wilson also out for the moment and he is a good one with great wheels or at least he used to have great wheels. Still think they need a BIG lad for interior D line to bull rush and stuff the run better. Paddy Neufeld's best days could be done too.
So many possibilities. So many ways the Bombers can claim or lose a playoff spot.
This is where the 1 and 0 mentality needs to be the focus of the team. With positive results, everything will fall into place. One game at a time.
Quote from: ModAdmin on August 11, 2024, 07:03:10 AMSo many possibilities. So many ways the Bombers can claim or lose a playoff spot.
This is where the 1 and 0 mentality needs to be the focus of the team. With positive results, everything will fall into place. One game at a time.
The thread at least in my opinion is that Bomber Management made a signficant mistake in not resigning him. That is the sum total of the thread and one that I agree with. Any deflection on this fact is IMHO a disservice.
Quote from: BBRT on August 11, 2024, 04:36:34 PMThe thread at least in my opinion is that Bomber Management made a signficant mistake in not resigning him. That is the sum total of the thread and one that I agree with. Any deflection on this fact is IMHO a disservice.
We don't really know the entire story of why he wasn't re-signed. Walters said they were negotiating with him and money was available. Injury history may have been an issue and there may have been contact details for games played.
Perhaps Grant wanted more of a role on offence that we weren't expecting to happen in Winnipeg. He doesn't seem to be getting that in Toronto either.
Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 11, 2024, 06:57:03 AMI guess letting Houston walk too would be another gaffe, but Rasheed (at least so far) & Hardrick washed out this season. Nobody else gave Jeffcoat an offer sheet either.
Get Wolli and Lawler back this is still a good O IF they come back healthy and play to their capabilities. LB Wilson also out for the moment and he is a good one with great wheels or at least he used to have great wheels. Still think they need a BIG lad for interior D line to bull rush and stuff the run better. Paddy Neufeld's best days could be done too.
Nah, Houston like Marcus Sayles before him was good but easily replaceable, clear case of the Stamps offering him a better deal and the Bombers accepting it and moving on. D-backs can be readily picked off abundant berry bushes, great returners can only be found at the bottom of deep dark diamond mines.
Where did the number of $85K for Grant come from.
Unlike a lot of those that left Grant hasn't expressed any indication that his first desire was to remain in wpg
Both sides have been pretty quiet feels like he just wanted to play elsewhere
Quote from: Pigskin on August 11, 2024, 06:39:08 PMWhere did the number of $85K for Grant come from.
Came up in the media a couple of weeks ago, can't recall who announced it.
Hard to resign someone when you can't get him a contract offer because he is unavailable..
"Bombers GM Kyle Walters had told us Grant typically goes off the grid in the winter, hard to reach even by his own agent."
By the time he resurfaced, we had moved on. Its not like you can wait forever..
Historically, Grant has been explosive, but last year, 8 games, 1 TD. And without contact to confirm he would be improving on those numbers, its hard to hold a spot and $SMS money open for him...
Quote from: theaardvark on August 11, 2024, 07:37:54 PMHard to resign someone when you can't get him a contract offer because he is unavailable..
"Bombers GM Kyle Walters had told us Grant typically goes off the grid in the winter, hard to reach even by his own agent."
By the time he resurfaced, we had moved on. Its not like you can wait forever..
Historically, Grant has been explosive, but last year, 8 games, 1 TD. And without contact to confirm he would be improving on those numbers, its hard to hold a spot and $SMS money open for him...
You keep repeating this but how did we "move on"? What would have prevented us from signing him at any point before the season started?
It's a nonsense argument.
Quote from: theaardvark on August 11, 2024, 07:37:54 PMHard to resign someone when you can't get him a contract offer because he is unavailable..
"Bombers GM Kyle Walters had told us Grant typically goes off the grid in the winter, hard to reach even by his own agent."
By the time he resurfaced, we had moved on. Its not like you can wait forever..
Historically, Grant has been explosive, but last year, 8 games, 1 TD. And without contact to confirm he would be improving on those numbers, its hard to hold a spot and $SMS money open for him...
He was injured last season and this year he has 4 return TDs and in pace for another 4....and then there's the playoffs. He was also a threat on jet sweeps and the occasional wideout quick hitter. By the end of this season he could very well be the 2nd all time leading returner in CFl history.
I just think we needed to make him more of a priority when it came to resigning him....he adds both that X-Factor and that Exhilaration Factor for the fans.
Quote from: Jesse on August 11, 2024, 09:34:31 PMYou keep repeating this but how did we "move on"? What would have prevented us from signing him at any point before the season started?
It's a nonsense argument.
SMS? By the time Grant responded to our contract offers we may have already committed those dollars to other players.
Quote from: ModAdmin on August 12, 2024, 04:46:25 AMSMS? By the time Grant responded to our contract offers we may have already committed those dollars to other players.
If the plan had been to re-sign Grant all along, wouldn't the money have been earmarked for him until his party responded?
Seems like the WFC mishandled this situation - and badly, IMO.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on August 12, 2024, 01:35:34 PMIf the plan had been to re-sign Grant all along, wouldn't the money have been earmarked for him until his party responded?
Seems like the WFC mishandled this situation - and badly, IMO.
Likely it came to a point where decisions had to be made or lose other players...perhaps in addition to Grant. Also Grant may have decided to move on and never informed the Bombers. Remember, even his agent had trouble contacting him.
Quote from: ModAdmin on August 12, 2024, 04:46:25 AMSMS? By the time Grant responded to our contract offers we may have already committed those dollars to other players.
No, sorry. No one (of consequence) was signed after Walters last said we were still talking to Grant.
We made a mistake. It happens. But I'm not going to make excuses for the club when Grants killing it for Toronto. A couple of return TDs for us early in the year would have made a huge difference.
Quote from: Jesse on August 12, 2024, 04:18:09 PMNo, sorry. No one (of consequence) was signed after Walters last said we were still talking to Grant.
We made a mistake. It happens. But I'm not going to make excuses for the club when Grants killing it for Toronto. A couple of return TDs for us early in the year would have made a huge difference.
Grant is killing in Toronto. But you can't assume those TDs would have happened in Winnipeg either. Too many unknowns. We do know Grant is currently more effective than our returners but the jury is out on them too.
I asked our Bomber border if he believes Grant signed in Toronto for $85 and he laughed. Asked if that was a media report, and laughed again.
Quote from: ModAdmin on August 12, 2024, 04:38:15 PMGrant is killing in Toronto. But you can't assume those TDs would have happened in Winnipeg either. Too many unknowns. We do know Grant is currently more effective than our returners but the jury is out on them too.
To note, this year's ST schemes seem to be much improved on both sides under Mike Miller.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 12, 2024, 07:52:57 PMTo note, this year's ST schemes seem to be much improved on both sides under Mike Miller.
We still can't block very well on returns yet.
Quote from: Jesse on August 12, 2024, 04:18:09 PMNo, sorry. No one (of consequence) was signed after Walters last said we were still talking to Grant.
We made a mistake. It happens. But I'm not going to make excuses for the club when Grants killing it for Toronto. A couple of return TDs for us early in the year would have made a huge difference.
and thereby fully on the mark.....sometimes Bomber management shows signs of complacency and this is a prime example.
I don't think it's complacency. It's the expectation and priority of team and character.
"Bombers GM Kyle Walters had told us Grant typically goes off the grid in the winter, hard to reach even by his own agent."
The Bombers of 6 or 7 years ago would have probably played that game but the one now does not. You can decide whether that's the correct approach in the CFL (or in this case at that position) but I think that's how we operate.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 13, 2024, 12:12:19 PMI don't think it's complacency. It's the expectation and priority of team and character.
"Bombers GM Kyle Walters had told us Grant typically goes off the grid in the winter, hard to reach even by his own agent."
The Bombers of 6 or 7 years ago would have probably played that game but the one now does not. You can decide whether that's the correct approach in the CFL (or in this case at that position) but I think that's how we operate.
We've changed so much from when we signed him last year?
Quote from: Jesse on August 13, 2024, 01:46:29 PMWe've changed so much from when we signed him last year?
He didn't go from employable to not in an off season. It adds up over time with each player, I'm sure.
Quote from: ModAdmin on August 12, 2024, 04:38:15 PMGrant is killing in Toronto. But you can't assume those TDs would have happened in Winnipeg either. Too many unknowns. We do know Grant is currently more effective than our returners but the jury is out on them too.
I don't think the jury is out on them. Half a season has gone by. They're all meh. Janarion was a gamechanger as he proved for us all the years he played for us and as he's continuing to do in Toronto without skipping a beat. Not sure how we can spin it in any other way.
I'll say this as someone who trusted our decision to move on and hoped we could find an ELC to give us consistently good field position and break one every once in a while, but I too have seller's remorse now that we've seen enough evidence.
Quote from: blue_or_die on August 13, 2024, 03:09:18 PMI don't think the jury is out on them. Half a season has gone by. They're all meh. Janarion was a gamechanger as he proved for us all the years he played for us and as he's continuing to do in Toronto without skipping a beat. Not sure how we can spin it in any other way.
I'll say this as someone who trusted our decision to move on and hoped we could find an ELC to give us consistently good field position and break one every once in a while, but I too have seller's remorse now that we've seen enough evidence.
yes all our returners are "meh" at best....I remember the days before we got Keith Stokes and suddenly we had field position and a threat to break a game open. It's the X-Factor that can play a pivotal part in a run for the GC
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 13, 2024, 12:12:19 PMI don't think it's complacency. It's the expectation and priority of team and character.
"Bombers GM Kyle Walters had told us Grant typically goes off the grid in the winter, hard to reach even by his own agent."
The Bombers of 6 or 7 years ago would have probably played that game but the one now does not. You can decide whether that's the correct approach in the CFL (or in this case at that position) but I think that's how we operate.
The Director of Player Personnel should not try to be the players best friend, they should operate in neutral territory as much as possible. We've heard from numerous players directly this past off-season and in the past that communication from the team is often very poor to non-existent, which is literally the most important aspect of that job.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 13, 2024, 05:16:34 PMThe Director of Player Personnel should not try to be the players best friend, they should operate in neutral territory as much as possible. We've heard from numerous players directly this past off-season and in the past that communication from the team is often very poor to non-existent, which is literally the most important aspect of that job.
Has anyone who's not a disgruntled former player said anything like that?
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 13, 2024, 05:16:34 PMThe Director of Player Personnel should not try to be the players best friend, they should operate in neutral territory as much as possible. We've heard from numerous players directly this past off-season and in the past that communication from the team is often very poor to non-existent, which is literally the most important aspect of that job.
I think I've heard once or twice that a player had a past problem with communication with management. It makes no sense the team would simply ignore a player who was negotiating a contract. Who are the players this past off-season who have made this claim?
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 13, 2024, 12:12:19 PMI don't think it's complacency. It's the expectation and priority of team and character.
"Bombers GM Kyle Walters had told us Grant typically goes off the grid in the winter, hard to reach even by his own agent."
The Bombers of 6 or 7 years ago would have probably played that game but the one now does not. You can decide whether that's the correct approach in the CFL (or in this case at that position) but I think that's how we operate.
Agree 100%
No one player, whether that's Grant or Rourke, or Kelly, etc. is bigger than the team. I wish Grant well and thank him for his service here, but he's not a Bomber so ... crush ya later.
Quote from: J5V on August 13, 2024, 06:45:19 PMAgree 100%
No one player, whether that's Grant or Rourke, or Kelly, etc. is bigger than the team. Grant obviously knows he has a gift and obviously has no compelling loyalty to any particular team. He's a mercenary. He'll likely always go to the highest bidder. I wish him well and thank him for his service here, but he's not a Bomber so ... crush ya later.
What? He was a career Bomber before this season.
Quote from: ModAdmin on August 13, 2024, 06:39:04 PMI think I've heard once or twice that a player had a past problem with communication with management. It makes no sense the team would simply ignore a player who was negotiating a contract. Who are the players this past off-season who have made this claim?
Bailey, Jeffcoat, Harris before them, all told similar stories of a lack of communication from the front office. If someone ever interviewed Grant, we'd get his take, same with Gray, no reporter can bother to contact him to find out why he left football.
Quote from: Jesse on August 13, 2024, 07:14:07 PMWhat? He was a career Bomber before this season.
He started his career in Hamilton who ultimately released him. We picked him up after that. My understanding was he was difficult to keep happy. He opted out of his contract in 2020 before Walters convinced him to stay. He signed a one-year contract extension with Winnipeg on February 4, 2021. He tried free agency in 2022 and Walters again convinced him to sign. This year he went the free agent route again and signed with Toronto. I don't hold it against him and wish him well but he's an Argo now.
Quote from: J5V on August 13, 2024, 07:33:34 PMHe started his career in Hamilton who ultimately released him. We picked him up after that. My understanding was he was difficult to keep happy. He opted out of his contract in 2020 before Walters convinced him to stay. He signed a one-year contract extension with Winnipeg on February 4, 2021. He tried free agency in 2022 and Walters again convinced him to sign. This year he went the free agent route again and signed with Toronto. I don't hold it against him and wish him well but he's an Argo now.
Well, he never played a game for any team but Winnipeg before this year so I find it very difficult to call him a "mercenary" who goes to the highest bidder.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 13, 2024, 07:27:01 PMBailey, Jeffcoat, Harris before them, all told similar stories of a lack of communication from the front office. If someone ever interviewed Grant, we'd get his take, same with Gray, no reporter can bother to contact him to find out why he left football.
Of course those are one side on those conversations. You and I don't know the full story so I take players' comments with a grain or two of salt. For example, a player who is told "This is our final offer" could easily take that as a lack of communication especially if he believes that he is worth more.
In any event none of us know the full story so it leaves gap in trying to determine what actually happened.
Quote from: Jesse on August 13, 2024, 08:02:18 PMWell, he never played a game for any team but Winnipeg before this year so I find it very difficult to call him a "mercenary" who goes to the highest bidder.
You're right, that language was probably somewhat hyperbolic. You might be able to tell I'm not real happy with the fact that he wouldn't stay here with us and now that he's in Toronto, well, he's the enemy now. Anyway, I removed that particular comment after some consideration.
Who says we didn't set money aside for Grant. Just might not have been enough.
If it was outside the budget Walters had set, for an oft injured Xfactor, so be it.
There is no way Pinball signed him for $85k, unless there was $200k nonSMS money like Rourke got.
Quote from: theaardvark on August 13, 2024, 11:03:17 PMWho says we didn't set money aside for Grant. Just might not have been enough.
If it was outside the budget Walters had set, for an oft injured Xfactor, so be it.
There is no way Pinball signed him for $85k, unless there was $200k nonSMS money like Rourke got.
The marketing money just shows we didn't need to set aside money, if we wanted him here, we could have made it happen.
Quote from: Jesse on August 13, 2024, 11:11:46 PMThe marketing money just shows we didn't need to set aside money, if we wanted him here, we could have made it happen.
You have no idea if we have already spent our "marketing money". It might have been why Schoen/Olivera signed here.
Quote from: theaardvark on August 14, 2024, 01:04:27 AMYou have no idea if we have already spent our "marketing money". It might have been why Schoen/Olivera signed here.
that assumes there is a fixed amount you can spend which there does not appear to be.
Quote from: Pete on August 14, 2024, 02:32:24 AMthat assumes there is a fixed amount you can spend which there does not appear to be.
We really need some answers about the circumventing $SMS crap.
If you can pay a player an unlimited "promotional fee", then we should sign every player. We are one of the most liquid, if not the most liquid team, and don't have an owner to pay. As long as we keep a little in the kitty, there is no reason to not spend every dollar. And we've had surpluses for years.
Is there a line item in the annual report for "promotional fees"?
Quote from: ModAdmin on August 13, 2024, 09:34:06 PMOf course those are one side on those conversations. You and I don't know the full story so I take players' comments with a grain or two of salt. For example, a player who is told "This is our final offer" could easily take that as a lack of communication especially if he believes that he is worth more.
In any event none of us know the full story so it leaves gap in trying to determine what actually happened.
The players version is the only side we have as the team never has and never will comment. If you go back and listen to the interviews of those 3 particular players, you may have a hard time disbelieving them as they all come across as open, sincere and honest.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 14, 2024, 07:16:10 AMThe players version is the only side we have as the team never has and never will comment. If you go back and listen to the interviews of those 3 particular players, you may have a hard time disbelieving them as they all come across as open, sincere and honest.
Personally I can't simply accept what the players say without hearing the other side. Suggesting the organization did not communicate with them flies in the face of everything I've heard about the Bombers - that is they care about the players, that they build the team based on that attitude and atmosphere. At the same time decisions need to made that sometimes let a player go or they are offered a lower salary or a reduced role on the team. Those decisions are not likely to go over well with some players. And the organization is not going to get into those specifics.
But again, we don't know the full story. That is all I am saying.