Do you all find the Nick Demski's ball security is not up to speed his whole career.
It seems he had been making costly fumbles in the most inappropriate situations of a game..
Yeah. It's a pretty common occurrence. We're just not usually in a spot where the occasional mistake will cost us games.
Right now our margin of victory is so narrow the spot light is really shining.
ND10 has had his problems over the years. I was surprised that Thurman caught up to him.
Hey that was a tremendous catch and run by Demski but even a better hustle, grab the ball carrier and punch the ball lose play by Thurman. It was the play of the game, and Thurman would have done that to any other reciever in the league. Having said that, yes, Demski does have a history of poor ball security,the facts don't lie
2 fumbles in 2 games.
It's always been an issue but it's hard to fault him for the one yesterday. A typical Demski fumble is trying to do too much after the catch with speed and finesse. The one yesterday was a fantastic defensive play and I'm sure he never felt it coming. We don't teach receivers to run with the ball in space with two hands on the ball.
Big difference between a fumble and a forced fumble. That was a punch out, and like a previous posted said, any receiver in the league would have fared the same. Short of running with two hands on the ball or taking a knee, not getting away from that one. An unfortunate outcome to a stellar play.
For sure, Demski was trying to score the game tying TD on a great throw and catch. No faulting him there at all. It was just a great defensive heads up play. Most defenders would be content to catch up to him and tackle him, but not Thurman, to have the awareness to do that in the heat of the moment is unreal.
Demski catches a lot of balls in traffic and trying to get away from defenders and has a history of losing the bill, but sometimes the defenders make a great play on the ball and this was definitely one of those times.
Third one this season, lost two. Players get let go for less. Demski is a vet, it's inexcusable, it a trend he's never been able overcome his entire career.
What? Demski? Being criticized for putting forth extra effort.
Of all the people to be criticized where should Demski be ranked as a loafer.
Yup agreed though his being unaware, coast us.
Demski is a top 5 receiver in terms of recent yardage
Does he fumble, yes
Is it an issue, no
8/10 his effort is worth it, 2/10 times it costs you
No pain no gain
Harris was same way, you want people to battle
He will learn from this
Quote from: Blueforlife on July 20, 2024, 11:04:44 PMDemski is a top 5 receiver in terms of recent yardage
Does he fumble, yes
Is it an issue, no
8/10 his effort is worth it, 2/10 times it costs you
No pain no gain
Harris was same way, you want people to battle
He will learn from this
I agree that Demski is worth the occasional mistakes, but he obviously isn't going to suddenly learn his lesson at this point of his career. It's just you glossing over clear problems again.
He simply needs to know to send pure the ball better. Is this that hard for a guy like that?
Quote from: Jesse on July 20, 2024, 11:39:12 PMI agree that Demski is worth the occasional mistakes, but he obviously isn't going to suddenly learn his lesson at this point of his career. It's just you glossing over clear problems again.
Imo he can learn and yes he will make mistakes in the future but he is so dominant and consistent it's a none issue. Focus on the topic not me. Demski isn't problem imo, he is a star and the least of our worries. A good player having another solid year. We can agree to disagree here. A bad mistake.
Quote from: Blueforlife on July 20, 2024, 11:04:44 PMDemski is a top 5 receiver in terms of recent yardage
Does he fumble, yes
Is it an issue, no
8/10 his effort is worth it, 2/10 times it costs you
No pain no gain
Harris was same way, you want people to battle
He will learn from this
He's in his 9th season. If he learned anything it would be that he should have corrected ball security about year 3.
Now his turnovers are not excessive but " he'll learn from it " is a ridiculous comment. His positive plays are a lot more than any negative plays, but he had to know pursuit was from the rear and an attempt would be made to strip the ball.
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 21, 2024, 02:23:14 AMHe's in his 9th season. If he learned anything it would be that he should have corrected ball security about year 3.
Now his turnovers are not excessive but " he'll learn from it " is a ridiculous comment. His positive plays are a lot more than any negative plays, but he had to know pursuit was from the rear and an attempt would be made to strip the ball.
Not ridiculous in anyway shape or form. BLM re learned to how to throw (different mechanics) after he hurt himself bad. This year his coach took him aside and told him how he needed to adjust his game and he did. A vet can learn and make adjustments. Happens all the time in sports. Good athletes evolve. To suggest that Demski can't learn from this isn't true. Yes he should have ball security "wrapped up" by now but never too late to learn. Your opinion is welcome but your tone isn't. Players learn from film, mistakes and their coaches. Not rocket science.
Quote from: Blueforlife on July 20, 2024, 11:04:44 PMDemski is a top 5 receiver in terms of recent yardage
Does he fumble, yes
Is it an issue, no
8/10 his effort is worth it, 2/10 times it costs you
No pain no gain
Harris was same way, you want people to battle
He will learn from this
People are are pointing out that ball security is important. That fumble was a huge issue in a close game. Demski probably believed he was running in the clear and perhaps was not protecting the ball as he should have. Fans have every right to be concerned about a fumble that potentially stopped a score from happening. And after 9 seasons, players are not "learning" about protecting the ball. It's okay to be a fan but at least try to be objective in your comments. It's not always "Rah, rah, rah, the Bombers are the best now and forever."
Quote from: ModAdmin on July 21, 2024, 03:19:56 AMPeople are are pointing out that ball security is important. That fumble was a huge issue in a close game. Demski probably believed he was running in the clear and perhaps was not protecting the ball as he should have. Fans have every right to be concerned about a fumble that potentially stopped a score from happening.
Agreed.
It's not that Demski can't learn from this , people are frustrated he hasn t learned from this in the past 8 years so what's going to change?? Likely nothing. Every time he catches a ball in traffic I hold my breath as it is a very real possibility the ball gets knocked loose. Again.
Quote from: M.O.A.B. on July 20, 2024, 08:36:08 PM2 fumbles in 2 games.
That's not the worst part. The worst is that Demski has had
pitiful stats all season, lots of drops (many on bad throws, sure). If you look at it in terms of production over (in-game) cost, the picture gets horrific. Kind of like Zach's TD/INT ratio.
If you count a TO in scoring zone as costing us 4 points on average (with our TD rate this season, probably accurate), or the equivalent of 50Y on field (if it was a punting situation), then when set against his ineffectiveness on O, well you have a really bad equation.
But Demski is an elite player, and just like Grant was able to fix his fumble problem, so can Demksi. We've seen it many times: when a player like a RB has fumble-itis, they go 2-arms on the rock whenever they can be anywhere near defenders. That's what Demski needs to do. There are no excuses now: 2-arm protection when he's not wide open. The coaches can force this: You don't 2-arm, you warm the bench.
I'm not sure what other problems Demski is having this season, causing him to: never be open, get no separation, lack speed. But I bet he can get back to form when we get our normal WRs back,
IF he can start protecting the ball.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 20, 2024, 08:44:16 PMIt's always been an issue but it's hard to fault him for the one yesterday. A typical Demski fumble is trying to do too much after the catch with speed and finesse. The one yesterday was a fantastic defensive play and I'm sure he never felt it coming. We don't teach receivers to run with the ball in space with two hands on the ball.
But Demski needs to be aware of the type of game and type of situation. At the time it was a 1-score game, we were doing well, SSK only had one decent drive, D was keeping us in it, his catch was near the scoring zone...
he didn't have to get the home run!! There's no reason he couldn't go two-arms at the expense of speed/TD. We were driving, leave it for the team to punch it in if he couldn't get there 2-arming it.
I hate to say it, but if he's lost so much speed since the 2019 WSF chin-up TD YAC scamper that
he's getting caught by a big-beast DL or LB, then he needs to abandon that YAC thought in his head from this point forward and protect the darn ball.
Quote from: Jesse on July 20, 2024, 11:39:12 PMI agree that Demski is worth the occasional mistakes, but he obviously isn't going to suddenly learn his lesson at this point of his career. It's just you glossing over clear problems again.
Sure he can. This is literally one of the easiest things to coach and enforce. You basically take it away as an option for him. 2-arm when D around, or you sit.
Let's not forget that a certain Mr. A. Harris would have several fumbles a season, often costly. He'd usually go beast mode for the rest of the game or next week. He'd also 2-arm it more. But AH33 had production, Demski currently doesn't.
Quote from: ModAdmin on July 21, 2024, 03:19:56 AMPeople are are pointing out that ball security is important. That fumble was a huge issue in a close game. Demski probably believed he was running in the clear and perhaps was not protecting the ball as he should have. Fans have every right to be concerned about a fumble that potentially stopped a score from happening. And after 9 seasons, players are not "learning" about protecting the ball. It's okay to be a fan but at least try to be objective in your comments. It's not always "Rah, rah, rah, the Bombers are the best now and forever."
I never said ball security wasn't important. I never said it wasn't an issue in that game at that time. I believe that a player (best ones) can learn his entire career and belief that he can learn from this. Just because you don't think he can improve ball protection doesn't mean it's true. My points on this topic are objective and my opinion just like every else's on here should be welcome. I never stated rah rah rah Bombers are the best and forever (no need for that language here). I am allowed to have an opinion on Demski, which is summarized below.
1. Great player worth the mistakes he makes which are not that common
2. Does fumble on occasion as he fights are every down
3. That play was very unfortunate due to it's impact on the game and timing
4. Any good pro can learn his entire career
You like some other posters are not focusing on the topic of the thread. No need for the personal dig here. We don't always see eye to eye and that's ok. Let's talk ball.
I have been strong supporter of this club pre and during our mini dynasty. Tides are turning. I will continue to support good things and criticize the bad. Been around a long time, sure have seen our ups and downs. At an inflection point here.
Thanks Techno sounds like we are on the same page about how he can fix this.
Quote from: dd on July 21, 2024, 03:27:49 AMAgreed.
It's not that Demski can't learn from this , people are frustrated he hasn t learned from this in the past 8 years so what's going to change?? Likely nothing. Every time he catches a ball in traffic I hold my breath as it is a very real possibility the ball gets knocked loose. Again.
Overstated on the negative. His stats show he is one of the most productive receivers last 5 years. He Fumbles yes, but not that often for it to be the concern you are making it out to be imo.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 21, 2024, 09:03:09 AMThat's not the worst part. The worst is that Demski has had pitiful stats all season, lots of drops (many on bad throws, sure). If you look at it in terms of production over (in-game) cost, the picture gets horrific. Kind of like Zach's TD/INT ratio.
If you count a TO in scoring zone as costing us 4 points on average (with our TD rate this season, probably accurate), or the equivalent of 50Y on field (if it was a punting situation), then when set against his ineffectiveness on O, well you have a really bad equation.
But Demski is an elite player, and just like Grant was able to fix his fumble problem, so can Demksi. We've seen it many times: when a player like a RB has fumble-itis, they go 2-arms on the rock whenever they can be anywhere near defenders. That's what Demski needs to do. There are no excuses now: 2-arm protection when he's not wide open. The coaches can force this: You don't 2-arm, you warm the bench.
I'm not sure what other problems Demski is having this season, causing him to: never be open, get no separation, lack speed. But I bet he can get back to form when we get our normal WRs back, IF he can start protecting the ball.
Demski had fumble problems early in his career with the Bombers. It was to the point that some posters wanted him released. IIRC it was his 2nd year as a Bomber where he improved significantly. He's not a fumble machine but has had some problems recently.
He fights for every inch and some defensive players have made great plays to strip the ball.
It's unfortunate but not a particular concern. Receivers drop balls, RB's fumble and QB's throw int's. That's why they practice every week and hold TC.
Demski will fumble again this year. It might be next week or game 18. Rain may be a factor as the season progresses.
I think we can be certain that Demski will reflect on this particular fumble as it took away the potential for OT and even a victory. There are no guarantees but losing the ball was the end.
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 21, 2024, 02:01:32 PMDemski had fumble problems early in his career with the Bombers. It was to the point that some posters wanted him released. IIRC it was his 2nd year as a Bomber where he improved significantly. He's not a fumble machine but has had some problems recently.
He fights for every inch and some defensive players have made great plays to strip the ball.
It's unfortunate but not a particular concern. Receivers drop balls, RB's fumble and QB's throw int's. That's why they practice every week and hold TC.
Demski will fumble again this year. It might be next week or game 18. Rain may be a factor as the season progresses.
I think we can be certain that Demski will reflect on this particular fumble as it took away the potential for OT and even a victory. There are no guarantees but losing the ball was the end.
Agree with every word. Great post.
Quote from: Blueforlife on July 21, 2024, 02:53:51 AMNot ridiculous in anyway shape or form. BLM re learned to how to throw (different mechanics) after he hurt himself bad. This year his coach took him aside and told him how he needed to adjust his game and he did. A vet can learn and make adjustments. Happens all the time in sports. Good athletes evolve. To suggest that Demski can't learn from this isn't true. Yes he should have ball security "wrapped up" by now but never too late to learn. Your opinion is welcome but your tone isn't. Players learn from film, mistakes and their coaches. Not rocket science.
I still maintain that was a horse collar tackle. I think we all know a flag would have been thrown for exactly that had the roles been reversed.
Quote from: J5V on July 21, 2024, 02:47:59 PMI still maintain that was a horse collar tackle. I think we all know a flag would have been thrown for exactly that had the roles been reversed.
I thought initially it was going to be a horse collar tackle but reconsidered that it wasn't. The left hand went to the front of Demski's left shoulder. The right hand punched the ball forward / down from Demski's hand.
At best I might suggest it could have gone either way even if we had been able to challenge. Although I haven't yet erased the PVR, I can't bring myself to re-watch the game.
It wasn't called but it was not the best reffed game we've seen.
Demski is still a great depth receiver. Problem is he's our #1 guy right now.
As soon as Lawler is back, I think that fixes alot of our O struggles.
It'll open other WR for shots, and open the ground game more as teams will have to respect the deep ball.
Quote from: BomberFan73 on July 21, 2024, 03:55:19 PMDemski is still a great depth receiver. Problem is he's our #1 guy right now.
As soon as Lawler is back, I think that fixes alot of our O struggles.
It'll open other WR for shots, and open the ground game more as teams will have to respect the deep ball.
Bombers tend to live or die on smash mouth football. That starts with being able to have a strong run game. Teams are taking that away from us while we're in a transition at receiver.
Better run game opens up the receivers and vice versa. At the very least we have to add another import to replace Clercius as the current starter.
If Lawler is ready that solves part of the issue. IMO we need 2 changes at receiver. I'm not knocking Clercius but he's not going to stretch the field.
Quote from: BomberFan73 on July 21, 2024, 03:55:19 PMDemski is still a great depth receiver. Problem is he's our #1 guy right now.
As soon as Lawler is back, I think that fixes alot of our O struggles.
It'll open other WR for shots, and open the ground game more as teams will have to respect the deep ball.
Quick question for you - If and When Lawler gets back how long will he last before he is injured yet again? Need receivers that are not only good but can last the season - and that IMHO is not Lawler. Given what we are paying him the ROI on his is not all that good.
Quote from: BBRT on July 21, 2024, 04:07:39 PMQuick question for you - If and When Lawler gets back how long will he last before he is injured yet again? Need receivers that are not only good but can last the season - and that IMHO is not Lawler. Given what we are paying him the ROI on his is not all that good.
Lean and lanky receivers that make circus catches often get hit when they are most vulnerable. It goes with the territory. Look at how Lawler got injured this time.
Rhymes, Cottoy, Hatcher and others have spent time on 6 game IR. That's just to name a few.
His ROI is not that good, but that's a supply demand issue where teams pay too much for good talent. Schoen is not the lean and lanky type but he's another receiver that takes a hard hit on every play.
It's playing the odds. The more times you are targeted, the more you get hurt. RB's get hit more often but not at as great a velocity most of the time. They are also more upright and the hammer more often than the nail.
By definition receivers are the nail while in the process of the catch.
Demski has played in 125 games. 382 catches on 550 attempts. 4624 yards with 1872 in YAC. 124 carries for nearly 900 yards.
That doesn't include any blocking efforts.
What's clear is that he's been hit a lot during his career. He's one of the primary offensive weapons.
Maybe somebody can find how many fumbles he's had each year out of curiosity.
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 21, 2024, 04:01:48 PMBombers tend to live or die on smash mouth football. That starts with being able to have a strong run game. Teams are taking that away from us while we're in a transition at receiver.
Better run game opens up the receivers and vice versa. At the very least we have to add another import to replace Clercius as the current starter.
If Lawler is ready that solves part of the issue. IMO we need 2 changes at receiver. I'm not knocking Clercius but he's not going to stretch the field.
The running game has been very one dimensional this season, gone are the jets sweeps and any other form of trickery with Demski running up the middle. Guess it might be pinned on the O-line finding their sea legs and the downgrade in personnel they decided to run with.
Maybe we're reaching out to our import FB from 2023. Our ratio would allow that more this year than last year.
I wouldn't normally even suggest that if we still had Hardrick and Grey. Our OL is not as good as 2023 and we also don't have the blocking skill of Bailey either.
Can't think of a good alternative at FB other than a total rookie.
I'm only partially jesting. It's not the best idea I've even had but we need a couple of bandaids.
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 21, 2024, 04:42:56 PMMaybe we're reaching out to our import FB from 2023. Our ratio would allow that more this year than last year.
I wouldn't normally even suggest that if we still had Hardrick and Grey. Our OL is not as good as 2023 and we also don't have the blocking skill of Bailey either.
Can't think of a good alternative at FB other than a total rookie.
I'm only partially jesting. It's not the best idea I've even had but we need a couple of bandaids.
Not that I've noticed him on the field but Feltmate might be gone for awhile, giving the FB job back to MCI.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 21, 2024, 04:46:32 PMNot that I've noticed him on the field but Feltmate might be gone for awhile, giving the FB job back to MCI.
Except MCI is on the 6 game...
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 21, 2024, 02:23:14 AMHe's in his 9th season. If he learned anything it would be that he should have corrected ball security about year 3.
Now his turnovers are not excessive but " he'll learn from it " is a ridiculous comment. His positive plays are a lot more than any negative plays, but he had to know pursuit was from the rear and an attempt would be made to strip the ball.
Not excessive? It's the 3rd fumble this season all fumbled the same way. I'm struggling to find another receiver this season that has fumbled 3 times caused by a player in a chase position. 2 have been lost, and if it wasn't for Brady O saving the third one the Bombers would be 1-6 right now.
If we don't rush Lawler he will come back strong and likely finish the season without injury with a little luck on our side. He will really help develop and open up Wilson and the rest of the receiving crew.
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 21, 2024, 02:23:14 AMHe's in his 9th season. If he learned anything it would be that he should have corrected ball security about year 3.
Now his turnovers are not excessive but " he'll learn from it " is a ridiculous comment. His positive plays are a lot more than any negative plays, but he had to know pursuit was from the rear and an attempt would be made to strip the ball.
Exactly ...and the frustrating part is that before the game MOS was asked about Sask being known for forcing fumbles and he scoffed at the idea of working on ball security -" everyone knows to secure the ball" was what he said.
Quote from: The Zipp on July 22, 2024, 02:38:22 AMExactly ...and the frustrating part is that before the game MOS was asked about Sask being known for forcing fumbles and he scoffed at the idea of working on ball security -" everyone knows to secure the ball" was what he said.
He's not wrong. Those are football fundamentals 101. Demski knows them too.
Quote from: J5V on July 21, 2024, 02:47:59 PMI still maintain that was a horse collar tackle. I think we all know a flag would have been thrown for exactly that had the roles been reversed.
It wasn't, BinBC is right. I just computer PVRd it now. The motion of Demski's head/neck did appear like a HC, but the D's hand/arm went fully in front of Demski, pulling him down from the chest/shoulder, not from the back of the jersey. So, perfectly legal.
Quote from: BomberFan73 on July 21, 2024, 03:55:19 PMDemski is still a great depth receiver. Problem is he's our #1 guy right now.
As soon as Lawler is back, I think that fixes alot of our O struggles.
Only if the OL keep improving. They have been getting a lot better, especially on pass-pro, but they are a loooong way from our 2021 OL. Let's hope their ceiling is high, as we can't max out at the current level: it's not good enough to win consistently.
Us with healthy Lawler + a legit week 10 OL (not that crap week 1 OL), and if Zach can fix his "delay issue", then maybe our O can be the force it was meant to be.
Quote from: BBRT on July 21, 2024, 04:07:39 PMQuick question for you - If and When Lawler gets back how long will he last before he is injured yet again? Need receivers that are not only good but can last the season - and that IMHO is not Lawler. Given what we are paying him the ROI on his is not all that good.
I think the coaches need to take Lawler aside and tell him to pull a Stegall and just get OOB in those situations. His arm is broken because he got YAC and wanted to pull a Strev into the DB. DB helmet broken Kenny's thin forearm.
Lawler said in presser he wouldn't change a thing and will play exactly the same way. MOS is on record regarding Strev saying he wouldn't ask Strev to change his style... but Strev is a tank, Lawler is not.
So someone needs to ask Lawler to be smart post-catch. He can be the best WR in the league, but it won't help us if he's always on the sidelines in a cast. Willie needs to coach him up on being invincible to injuries.
Quote from: theaardvark on July 21, 2024, 05:11:04 PMExcept MCI is on the 6 game...
Doh!! We went from dressing 2 NAT FB to having none left in the hopper! How on earth does that happen? I thought Feltmate was progressing nicely.
But now we can Eli and Wallace a lot more on jumbo/TE sets. However, Wallace seems to have fallen out of favor: he was used a ton weeks 1-3, but not as much in recent weeks.
Maybe Eli will be out there a ton in a more TE type of role. I really reeeeeeeaaally want to see a pass to Eli, just make sure to declare eligibility!!!
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 21, 2024, 04:42:56 PMMaybe we're reaching out to our import FB from 2023. Our ratio would allow that more this year than last year.
You know, this isn't the worst idea in the world if our desired NAT FBs are both 6G'd. Even if we don't always dress him, having him around could help when we absolutely need a FB. Buuut, it depends on him being in game shape still (probably a fair assumption for a SEAL!).
Quote from: jdrattops on July 21, 2024, 08:34:40 PMNot excessive? It's the 3rd fumble this season all fumbled the same way. I'm struggling to find another receiver this season that has fumbled 3 times caused by a player in a chase position. 2 have been lost, and if it wasn't for Brady O saving the third one the Bombers would be 1-6 right now.
There is no reason Demski couldn't be 2-arming it there, especially after the other 2 fumbles. It's gotten silly, and I really hope Demski is clearly going max ball-pro in week 8.
Also, let's coach up the other Rs around Demski at the time of catch to sprint full on to Demski (behind/in-front/beside, whatever) so when he coughs it up we have a shot at recovery. Too many Rs start jogging or stopping when they're behind a play when a catch has been made (like Pokey in-frame on the Demski fumble, just jogging).
D players get coached to go to the ball full speed for good things to happen, O should too.
There's no reason why a seasoned vet like Demski should be coughing up the ball so easily.
His fumblitis is only magnified by the ongoing struggles on offense.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 22, 2024, 04:44:23 AMThere is no reason Demski couldn't be 2-arming it there, especially after the other 2 fumbles. It's gotten silly, and I really hope Demski is clearly going max ball-pro in week 8.
Also, let's coach up the other Rs around Demski at the time of catch to sprint full on to Demski (behind/in-front/beside, whatever) so when he coughs it up we have a shot at recovery. Too many Rs start jogging or stopping when they're behind a play when a catch has been made (like Pokey in-frame on the Demski fumble, just jogging).
D players get coached to go to the ball full speed for good things to happen, O should too.
Watch Wilson on the Demski fumble, he threw a great block prior to the ball coming out.
What is your concept of Max Pro? That's a term reserved for pass blocking.
Quote from: DM83 on July 22, 2024, 10:38:40 PMWhat is your concept of Max Pro? That's a term reserved for pass blocking.
Of course I know that max pro = OL. I'm
re-imagining the term to be applied to ball security!
Bread loaf = no pro
One-arm = normal pro
Two-arm = max pro! (TM)
I'll take a royalty for each new use of the term, thanks!