Blue Bombers Forum

I ask the superstar players: do you like losing??

It's very clear that spending all the SMS on the superstar players has hurt our team in a major way.  Not only do we have no depth, but many of the guys we are starting are nowhere near starter material.  And now the injuries to our desired starters are really piling up.

Worse than that, the overpaid superstars are not performing anywhere near their pay level.  In weeks 1 & 2:

- Zach: being beaten by QBs earning hundreds of K less!  Looking awful in the pocket.  Overthrowing, underthrowing, throwing 3 INTs to 0 TD.  Not seeing the field.

- Kenny: lost for many games early in the season, just like '22 in EDM, and '23 here.  When in the game, whiffing on the passes he's paid to make.  Rarely open.

- Schoen: rarely open.  Nothing special.  Still never a circus catch.

- Demski: only a couple of catches so far?  Open once?

- Brady: highest paid NAT RB ever, injured going into week 1, out for game 2 and who knows how long.  Was averaging maybe 3YPC for week 1?  Even ELC nobody OTT had at RB today got 6.1YPC!

- Willie: maybe 1 or 2 stats so far?

Ya, it's not all their fault, ya blame a lot on their team-mates and OC/DC, ya injuries are a thing...

BUT, we now have a great opportunity with so many injured starters to go out and stock the shelves with quality, vet guys.  Not just at the injury positions, either, but at any position, like kick returner.  Not only do we have the 6GIR SMS savings to spend, but we should/could have even more if the above guys will restructure to get us some extra relief.

But that takes them manning up and going to KW saying they want to help the team.  Now, some have already done that.  Biggie is a well-known re-structuring guy.  And I think Willie did too, recently?

But what about highest-pay-in-the-league Kenny and Schoen?  And highest-paid-NAT-WR Demski?  And most of all, highest paid Bomber: Zach.  If they each pitch in 30k or something, that plus the 6GIR $$ adds up to a lot of quality you can buy from the FA leftovers and possibly-coming-up-soon castoffs.  Might even look at some trades...

So guys, you like losing?  What's it worth to help the team improve?

Quote from: DM83 on June 14, 2024, 07:13:47 AMNote Collaros lte throw to a passive Shoen at the end of the game.  Rack, come back to the under thrown ball!  Make an efffort Schoen!  Of course the shot throw by Collaros was way late, and Collaros had no zip on it. Yo, Zach, it's game time, not pre-practice walk through .

Actually, I was thinking the same thing.  As a WR you need a feel for the D pressure around you, and he should have known that DB was making a cut in front.  If Schoen does 2 steps forward on that out then he either makes the completion, or he makes the D guy run into him for DPI.

As per this thread: we can excuse 88 <forgothisnamealready> on his try because he's ELC rookie, but what's $300k Schoen's excuse?  Let alone Zach's.  He needs to speed up on every aspect.  A few tenths are costing us here, there and everywhere.

Argh, it's 2:37am the day after the game and bb.com still doens't have the chart up on their chart page!
https://www.bluebombers.com/2024-depth-position-charts/

The last play was a desperation pass made in a torrential downpour, chances are high it's not going to work out in their favour. 

I think you missed a couple other names: Neufeld and Bighill

Bombers gave the contracts and now they have to live with it.

Collaros is looking his age. He'll be 36 before Labor Day. It's the old Collaros for a while and then you say "who is this guy?" or "what is he doing?". His over all accuracy is the worst I have seen in his career. And I wonder if he can still throw the deep ball like he used to. Yes, I know it was raining but I have had the concerns a while.

My answer to this thread was a post I made in the off-season. I suggested going forward with Dru Brown at less than half the price and keep our depth elsewhere. Maybe 3 other posters thought that was a good idea, the rest said stupid. I can accept that the run may be over but I thought they would be building towards next year when we host the Cup. We might have painted ourselves into a corner on that front.

Do the players restructure their salaries after a couple good games? 
Silly thread

Quote from: BomberFan73 on June 14, 2024, 11:51:50 AMDo the players restructure their salaries after a couple good games? 
Silly thread

And what benefit would it have? Free Agency is over.

It's hard to tell without knowing the bonuses already paid. Some vets may already have a good portion for the season.

I would be shopping most of the vets if this continues but I am not sure there is much value there.  Teams generally wait for the release.

I would make Collaros the backup starting Monday and never look back. Expensive, but Streveler is on a team friendly deal so it works out and you still need a decent backup.  Which Collaros would definitely be.  Could extend his playing career as well.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 14, 2024, 05:25:25 AMI ask the superstar players: do you like losing??

It's very clear that spending all the SMS on the superstar players has hurt our team in a major way.  Not only do we have no depth, but many of the guys we are starting are nowhere near starter material.  And now the injuries to our desired starters are really piling up.

Worse than that, the overpaid superstars are not performing anywhere near their pay level.  In weeks 1 & 2:

- Zach: being beaten by QBs earning hundreds of K less!  Looking awful in the pocket.  Overthrowing, underthrowing, throwing 3 INTs to 0 TD.  Not seeing the field.

- Kenny: lost for many games early in the season, just like '22 in EDM, and '23 here.  When in the game, whiffing on the passes he's paid to make.  Rarely open.

- Schoen: rarely open.  Nothing special.  Still never a circus catch.

- Demski: only a couple of catches so far?  Open once?

- Brady: highest paid NAT RB ever, injured going into week 1, out for game 2 and who knows how long.  Was averaging maybe 3YPC for week 1?  Even ELC nobody OTT had at RB today got 6.1YPC!

- Willie: maybe 1 or 2 stats so far?

Ya, it's not all their fault, ya blame a lot on their team-mates and OC/DC, ya injuries are a thing...

BUT, we now have a great opportunity with so many injured starters to go out and stock the shelves with quality, vet guys.  Not just at the injury positions, either, but at any position, like kick returner.  Not only do we have the 6GIR SMS savings to spend, but we should/could have even more if the above guys will restructure to get us some extra relief.

But that takes them manning up and going to KW saying they want to help the team.  Now, some have already done that.  Biggie is a well-known re-structuring guy.  And I think Willie did too, recently?

But what about highest-pay-in-the-league Kenny and Schoen?  And highest-paid-NAT-WR Demski?  And most of all, highest paid Bomber: Zach.  If they each pitch in 30k or something, that plus the 6GIR $$ adds up to a lot of quality you can buy from the FA leftovers and possibly-coming-up-soon castoffs.  Might even look at some trades...

So guys, you like losing?  What's it worth to help the team improve?

Where do you think these quality replacements will come from even if SMS is not an issue? If we win the next 3 games, do vets restructure for more money? That is not the way it works.

Can you blame Lawler or Oliveria for getting injured?

Where did you buy your tin hat?

Holy moly Techno. Yikes on this thread.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on June 14, 2024, 01:58:26 PMHoly moly Techno. Yikes on this thread.

Agreed  :D

Something previously discussed / suggested, by me at least. Our ratio allows us to potentially move towards a 3 import OL.

Now I have no idea how each of our OL have graded out or whether those on the PR are better. However, it may be something to consider. Also might consider whether Eli is a better choice at either G or C.

Eli and Feltmate might see more time as a 6 OL or FB to provide better blocking?

Lots of things we might do to shake things up, but for the most part it's things that will be done in house.

Bombers pride themselves in having players capable to play at many positions in theory.

Depending on injuries in the secondary: Alexander could move up, Hallett or Kramdi to safety and Cole to SAM.

Bring back Rivers and Upshaw, activate Woods from PR to allow for a 4 man import DL. Except for those that attended TC, we don't really know how close players like Rivers or Upshaw were to making the roster.

Is C. Smith healthy and still kicking around?

Now I'm not suggesting a massive change for the next game. Just suggesting there are variations that could be make to the AR and to strategy.

Injuries may force a few changes although performance may as well result in a different look.

It starts with can Oliveria play at a peak level. His blocking as well as his running make a large difference in protection schemes.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2024, 03:14:24 PMSomething previously discussed / suggested, by me at least. Our ratio allows us to potentially move towards a 3 import OL.

Now I have no idea how each of our OL have graded out or whether those on the PR are better. However, it may be something to consider. Also might consider whether Eli is a better choice at either G or C.

Eli and Feltmate might see more time as a 6 OL or FB to provide better blocking?

Lots of things we might do to shake things up, but for the most part it's things that will be done in house.

Bombers pride themselves in having players capable to play at many positions in theory.

Depending on injuries in the secondary: Alexander could move up, Hallett or Kramdi to safety and Cole to SAM.

Bring back Rivers and Upshaw, activate Woods from PR to allow for a 4 man import DL. Except for those that attended TC, we don't really know how close players like Rivers or Upshaw were to making the roster.

Is C. Smith healthy and still kicking around?

Now I'm not suggesting a massive change for the next game. Just suggesting there are variations that could be make to the AR and to strategy.

Injuries may force a few changes although performance may as well result in a different look.

It starts with can Oliveria play at a peak level. His blocking as well as his running make a large difference in protection schemes.

I agree with that assuming we have the upgrade either on the phone or on the PR. Whatever we can do to immediately solidify the offensive line would be top priority for next week.

If the team thinks someone is not pulling their weight, they will get cut.  Or traded.  Or benched.

Restructuring sends all the wrong messages. 

It says "you aren't giving us what we paid you for, but we're OK with you staying for a little less".  No.  You either earn your pay, or you leave.  If we're willing to keep you on the team, it should be regardless price.

It gives permission for a player to underachieve, to stop working hard, knowing that at worst, they might take a bit of a paycut and still be on the team. 

It also gives players pause when considering signing here.  Player X signed a big deal, and was forced to re-negotiate.  Getting cut for bad play is one thing, but getting re-negotiated for m'eh play is quite another. Not a good message to send about your team.

I have no doubt that MOS does not look at paychecks and stats lines to decide a players status.  Pretty sure, to MOS every player that is on the roster is capable of earning a starting spot regardless paycheck, and also able to earn a spot on the bench.

Micro managing $SMS based on stats is not a team building practice.  Walters makes his deals based on what he expects, and overall, he usually gets what he pays for, or more.  Bad contracts you have to eat every now and then.  But messing with a deal that is in place is bad juju.

Great thread BTW.  In football you are only as good as your last snap.  Everyone should be looking over their shoulder after every outing.  The team needs to looking for better alternatives at every position, every game.  That's how it works.  Everyone loves football, football loves no one.  It is brutal on and off the field.

Fans need to accept their favs won't be around forever and Father Time beats them all.

Long term successful regimes know when to cut bait.  This is new and a learning curve for everyone but tough decisions need to be made.  Coaches included.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 14, 2024, 04:23:48 PMGreat thread BTW.  In football you are only as good as your last snap.  Everyone should be looking over their shoulder after every outing.  The team needs to looking for better alternatives at every position, every game.  That's how it works.  Everyone loves football, football loves no one.  It is brutal on and off the field.

Fans need to accept their favs won't be around forever and Father Time beats them all.

Long term successful regimes know when to cut bait.  This is new and a learning curve for everyone but tough decisions need to be made.  Coaches included.

That's not even close to true or a reasonable position to take. Every player on every roster has bad days or makes bad plays.

An assessment is based on a body of work over time. What one player does may be the result of what another does around him.

An OL missing a block may result in a RB tackled for a loss, a QB being sacked or throwing a pick. Collaros 1st pick was tipped at the LOS. That's on the OL, or possibly Augustine as well as Collaros. Two rookie receivers not on same page as Collaros etc.

If Collaros had some how managed a TD in that last series and we won, it wouldn't have meant all is well either.

Bombers lead the entire CFL in scoring in 2023. There is more to our problems than any single one thing or one player.

One spectacular defensive play by Webb from the win.  That's how close this game was.  Webb made a superman defend of a TD pass.  A little more zip (wet grip) and it's there. 

But lets negotiate Collaros, Lawler, Demski, Schoen down so we might have a chance at an unproven NFL reject coming up mid season.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Quote from: theaardvark on June 14, 2024, 05:36:29 PMOne spectacular defensive play by Webb from the win.  That's how close this game was.  Webb made a superman defend of a TD pass.  A little more zip (wet grip) and it's there. 

But lets negotiate Collaros, Lawler, Demski, Schoen down so we might have a chance at an unproven NFL reject coming up mid season.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

While that's true we lost the Grey Cup 2022 and 2023 due to one bad play by our defence or one good play by our opponent offence.

Film study and execution finds the tendencies or the opponent. In spite of our success over several years, we are often very predictable. At best that pass to Schoen was very close to the sidelines on a slippery field. I wonder if he was the primary receiver since it took too long to get the ball out?

The forum has reverted back to pre-dynasty mode after two loses.  The disfunction has resumed.  I thought it was bad back then.  This is worse.  Some things never change.  Get your feed ready.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 14, 2024, 08:56:02 PMThe forum has reverted back to pre-dynasty mode after two loses.  The disfunction has resumed.  I thought it was bad back then.  This is worse.  Some things never change.  Get your feed ready.

When the club is playing poorly, we use negative adjectives to describe them. When they are playing well, we will use positive adjectives.

There's nothing dysfunctional about talking about how poorly the club is playing. There's no point in having a forum if we're only allowed to say good things.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 14, 2024, 08:56:02 PMThe forum has reverted back to pre-dynasty mode after two loses.  The disfunction has resumed.  I thought it was bad back then.  This is worse.  Some things never change.  Get your feed ready.

No this is not much compared to the sparse days. You are incorrect.

Quote from: Jesse on June 14, 2024, 09:17:10 PMWhen the club is playing poorly, we use negative adjectives to describe them. When they are playing well, we will use positive adjectives.

There's nothing dysfunctional about talking about how poorly the club is playing. There's no point in having a forum if we're only allowed to say good things.

Completely agree the forum goes through the ups and downs of winning and losing.  The forum is not dysfunctional. 

The issue is extreme views of the situations that are expressed by a certain few and that becomes very distracting to legitimate discussions that attempt to constructively identify the strengths and weaknesses on the team.

This forum, I believe, is blessed with a number seasoned football fans who can discuss things rationally.  Unfortunately, there are a few who simply let their emotions, or their desire simply to troll, to get the better of them.

Moderators, though not perfect, will always try to keep discussions on track, in adherence to the rules and weed out those who post extreme or troll-like views.  But it would be a mis-characterization to call the forum "dysfunctional".

There, got that off my chest!

Quote from: ModAdmin on June 14, 2024, 09:40:35 PMCompletely agree the forum goes through the ups and downs of winning and losing.  The forum is not dysfunctional. 

The issue is extreme views of the situations that are expressed by a certain few and that becomes very distracting to legitimate discussions that attempt to constructively identify the strengths and weaknesses on the team.

This forum, I believe, is blessed with a number seasoned football fans who can discuss things rationally.  Unfortunately, there are a few who simply let their emotions, or their desire simply to troll, to get the better of them.

Moderators, though not perfect, will always try to keep discussions on track, in adherence to the rules and weed out those who post extreme or troll-like views.  But it would be a mis-characterization to call the forum "dysfunctional".

There, got that off my chest!

Good man Mod! :)

Quote from: theaardvark on June 14, 2024, 04:22:45 PMIf the team thinks someone is not pulling their weight, they will get cut.  Or traded.  Or benched.

Restructuring sends all the wrong messages. 

Wow.  How quickly many of you guys forget all of the CFL contract restructures in recent years.  This is not unprecedented for injured, underperforming, or even just overpaid players.

And some of these players come out and say they are doing it to help the team sign winners and win games.

Big names who have restructured contracts lower in recent years:

Vernon Adams Jr in BC
Bo Levi Mitchell in HAM
Masoli in OTT
Adam Bighill in WPG
Mike Reilly in BC

At the time of the restructure, all of them were either on the downtrend (however slight) or having injury problems.  If you don't believe me, just google "contract restructure <player name>".

So those teams and players didn't think it "sent the wrong message": actually it's the opposite, they are saying "I'm currently not worthy of that huge salary and/or I would rather my team have more SMS to surround me with better talent for the good of the team".

No one is talking about forcing anyone.  But the idea can be put out there in Bomber Land.  Then let FIFO sort itself out amongst the players, if that's what they want.

Quote from: Jesse on June 14, 2024, 12:30:56 PMAnd what benefit would it have? Free Agency is over.

Tell that to MTL in 2023.  Having some extra SMS allowed them to bring in Lemon & Sankey when they saw shortcomings in their roster.

Well, we clearly -- even before injuries! -- had/have shortcomings on our roster!  But unlike MTL in '23, we have no SMS left.

I'm trying to offer viable solutions to our dire predicament.  This seems like one option.

There are plenty of unsigned vets, maybe-not-so-retired retirees, and there will be cast-offs happening every week, and a ton by vet cutdown day.  Just because we're into the season and FA is officially over, doesn't mean there aren't options.

For example, we're in mega dire need of DEs.  We needed some spare DEs even before Haba went down.  So why not give Jeffcoat a call, with hat in hand?  Ya, no SMS... so why can't a few of the top-paid Bombers restructure to free up $15k each?  That more than covers the hit Jeffcoat would cost over an ELC.

Look at it this way: Haba was probably our 2nd or 3rd string DE last season.  So we're rolling with a 2nd string as the starter this year, already not a great situation.  Ya, we're hoping for the best and he can advance, etc, but right now it's just hope.  Now if Haba is gone we are going to roll with who in '23 would have been our 3rd/4th stringer.  Assume he advanced as well, so that means we're going to start a 2nd/3rd stringer at DE -- a guy we barely wanted on the '24 PR!  Who here thinks that will be a recipe for success?

Worse still, the backup/rotation for that 2nd/3rd stringer we start at DE will be our '23 4th/5th stringer who probably didn't even make it through our '23 TC!

Or, we can get on the phone to the couch sitters or whoever shakes free in the next little while, and sign someone who was at worst a 2nd/3rd stringer on another team.  At least we can get someone who has had at least a season of dressing under their belt.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2024, 01:29:05 PMWhere do you think these quality replacements will come from even if SMS is not an issue? If we win the next 3 games, do vets restructure for more money? That is not the way it works.

A lot will depend on what the injury situation looks like.  If we are down even half of the injured WR, RB, DE, DT, DB on the 6GIR, then ya, even if we're winning buckets (which we won't) it will be clear that we need to fill some of those ranks with vets from elsewhere.  And since they won't play for ELC, the only way you get any vets is by having free SMS.  The 6GIR will give us back maybe enough for ELCs, it will take some restructuring to give us back enough to pick up vets.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2024, 01:29:05 PMCan you blame Lawler or Oliveria for getting injured?

No, but a can't-play-prone player is always of lower value to teams.  Look at Jeffcoat, the epitome of this situation.  And if the can't-play-prone player is also a league's top-paid player... well surely that gives you some wiggle room.

Brady, of course, isn't can't-play-prone, so I'm mostly looking at Kenny.  Missed half of '22 with EDM due to injury.  Missed half of '23 with us due to criminal conviction problems.  Now will miss half of '24 due to a fracture.  All roughly speaking, of course.  So since returning to WPG has he given us the value we expected and are paying for?  Not by a long shot.  Is it his fault?  Well, '23 is, but of course fractures are not.  But it still counts against him in the grand calculation of value.

The cool part is, if he restructures to help out the team, he wins as much as the team does.  When it's time to re-sign Kenny I guarantee you games-missed enters into the calculation.  If he restructures to $250k this year, I guarantee you it makes it easier for us to pull the trigger on a re-sign vs just letting him walk a la Jeffcoat or Nick Moore.

If he produces in '24 about as much as he did in '23, and he's up for re-signing next FA at $300k, I'll bet money right now we let him walk.  So why not do what makes him look like an altruistic hero, helps the team, and helps him get re-signed down the road?

Quote from: BomberFan73 on June 14, 2024, 11:51:50 AMDo the players restructure their salaries after a couple good games? 
Silly thread

Yes.  Kelly massively restructured his salary UP after one good game.

Quote from: kkc60 on June 14, 2024, 11:18:32 AMI think you missed a couple other names: Neufeld and Bighill

Thank you!  Very good point.  Bighill has, on many occasions, restructured his contract down to help the team and realize that his on-field value has somewhat diminished as he gets older.  That's precisely what I am talking about.

He's the perfect example because he was, for a short period of time, the league's top paid D player, much like Willie.

I'm not sure about Neufeld in terms of restructuring, but I do know that come re-signing time he's always been reasonable and even said he takes less salary here because he likes it and doesn't want to move, and I'm sure he also wants to help leave SMS for the team to surround him with talent.

From the injury thread:

"Oakman would also be my first choice. Mason Bennett if he's still out there, or maybe Kongbo."

Add in Jeffcoat.

There are already 4 examples of couch-sitters just waiting for the call that we could start in a week or 2, if. we. had. the. sms. to. pay. above. ELC.  Where's that SMS going to come from?  Neptune?

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on June 14, 2024, 09:22:21 PMNo this is not much compared to the sparse days. You are incorrect.

It's not about being correct or not; we all have an opinion, the truth is often in the middle of two opposing views.  I found the forum had a lot of negativity pre dynasty.  I was routinely the target or many folks as I supported our vision as a club.  Back then the targets of many negative and extreme views were focused management, Hall, MOS (early days), our defense and I defended them all.  Back then there was a vocal group pushing for change, while another group seen the value of patience. I see a similar flavor this season in the criticisms of this club.

Quote from: Jesse on June 14, 2024, 09:17:10 PMWhen the club is playing poorly, we use negative adjectives to describe them. When they are playing well, we will use positive adjectives.

There's nothing dysfunctional about talking about how poorly the club is playing. There's no point in having a forum if we're only allowed to say good things.

Debate is welcome, positive and negative views are welcome.  As mentioned above the dysfunction refers to the extreme views, knee jerk reactions, emotional responses, trolling and needless back and forth with people trying to prove themselves right. 

Some have found this thread and some of its content welcome and well received, while other find it a little much.  I have found the tone from a group of posters recently that reminds me of the pre dynasty years.  The behavior, language, etc. Is similar, imo.

I find the forum mood has a major swing when the club shows weakness.  I don't see as strong a swing when we succeed in small doses.  For example two loses and some are throwing in the towel.  If we won two I don't think that many would have booked the GC parade.

Quote from: ModAdmin on June 14, 2024, 09:40:35 PMCompletely agree the forum goes through the ups and downs of winning and losing.  The forum is not dysfunctional. 

The issue is extreme views of the situations that are expressed by a certain few and that becomes very distracting to legitimate discussions that attempt to constructively identify the strengths and weaknesses on the team.

This forum, I believe, is blessed with a number seasoned football fans who can discuss things rationally.  Unfortunately, there are a few who simply let their emotions, or their desire simply to troll, to get the better of them.

Moderators, though not perfect, will always try to keep discussions on track, in adherence to the rules and weed out those who post extreme or troll-like views.  But it would be a mis-characterization to call the forum "dysfunctional".

There, got that off my chest!

Agree on ups and downs.  Agree on extreme views.  Agree on how there are a core group of exceptional educated and edicated members that provide a great deal of value and information.

Yes some posters have troll like behavior and this comes and goes.  Yes emotions do play a role.  Mods on here have always done a good job.  It was never my intent to hint at any dysfunction on part of the mods. I have also seen the ability of the forum to self regulate itself at times.  The dysfunction refers to the extreme views, knee jerk reactions, emotional responses, trolling and needless back and forth with people trying to prove themselves right.  Often we see new posters come and go in a flash of extreme viewings, trolling and bad behavior.

I seen this behavior come and go as a result of how successful this club is.  When we have bad stretches of play, strings of bad games or aspects of our game that are weak, people pile on and don't see the forest through the trees.

I hope for balance this season on the forum.  It's a fine line as the debate is welcome; it just gets little much at times.  Perhaps dysfunctional was too harsh of a term or a poor choice of words on my part.

I had a strong belief in this club pre dynasty and really defended our direction.  I still believe but I see cracks in our foundations.  On the cusp of either another year or two of winning or time for change.  I am on the fence and will decide by labour day which direction we headed.  As usual our success will be largely dictated by how healthy we are.

I appreciate all three of your opinions and responses.  Many of us try our best to make this place a healthy and functional environment and I am really happy to be a part of it.  I have been on here a long time and certainly have had my ups and downs as well.  Trying to fly more level with my approach to my posts and views.  Going to try to stay to keep it clean on here and not get caught up in the wave this time around.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 15, 2024, 01:01:19 AMFrom the injury thread:

"Oakman would also be my first choice. Mason Bennett if he's still out there, or maybe Kongbo."

Add in Jeffcoat.

There are already 4 examples of couch-sitters just waiting for the call that we could start in a week or 2, if. we. had. the. sms. to. pay. above. ELC.  Where's that SMS going to come from?  Neptune?

Pass on all, the answer is Jupiter

There is a difference between just bashing the team and pointing out obvious problems and offering possible solutions.

I am quick to point out flaws, but I usually try to offer a solution (if I can think of one).

This entire thread and its title is about possible solutions.  That is a positive, optimistic contribution, not just a debbie-downer bash-fest.  Clearly we have major woes, who is going to deny that?  So what are the solutions?

No one else has offered any ideas for affording all the couch talent we probably should be bringing in right about now.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 15, 2024, 02:18:24 AMThere is a difference between just bashing the team and pointing out obvious problems and offering possible solutions.

I am quick to point out flaws, but I usually try to offer a solution (if I can think of one).

This entire thread and its title is about possible solutions.  That is a positive, optimistic contribution, not just a debbie-downer bash-fest.  Clearly we have major woes, who is going to deny that?  So what are the solutions?

No one else has offered any ideas for affording all the couch talent we probably should be bringing in right about now.

Well put! I do appreciate the solutions! I am willing to wait and see what we have in house before making a strong push to find new talent.  That said the injuries are challenging that view.

Thinking about it more, our DL has just been decimated.  It's quite astounding.

We let Walker & Jeffcoat walk.  We lose Lawson, Haba and Fox to injury.  Maybe short, maybe long.  What other team has ever lost so much so quickly?

People can say what they want about Fatboi, but give that guy props, he's played a decade or more and he's missed almost no games.  That's quite amazing for a DT!

I'm thankful for Fatboi (the tank) and Willie (the cat) and their much needed durability.

But they need real, legit, and strong co-players to allow them to have maximal effectiveness.  We've known that about both those guys for years now.

We need to figure out the DL and OL.  The heart of any club.

Clearly we should have found money for Hardrick. I don't see how the big bucks we are paying Streveler is an improvement over Brown.

Quote from: BLUEBOMBER on June 15, 2024, 06:16:12 AMClearly we should have found money for Hardrick. I don't see how the big bucks we are paying Streveler is an improvement over Brown.

I believe Streveler is around 140 which is a huge deal, Brown is around 250 I think.

Now Brown and Streveler for under 400 would have been the best case scenario for the team IMO.  Less than Zach is making alone I believe and far more productive.

We probably could have kept Hardrick, Bailey, Grant and signed a FA or two.  The team would still be a force and likely 1-1 or 2-0.

Quote from: BLUEBOMBER on June 15, 2024, 06:16:12 AMClearly we should have found money for Hardrick. I don't see how the big bucks we are paying Streveler is an improvement over Brown.

Strev was cheap, the big money went to offensive stars.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 15, 2024, 07:08:34 AMI believe Streveler is around 140 which is a huge deal, Brown is around 250 I think.

Now Brown and Streveler for under 400 would have been the best case scenario for the team IMO.  Less than Zach is making alone I believe and far more productive.

We probably could have kept Hardrick, Bailey, Grant and signed a FA or two.  The team would still be a force and likely 1-1 or 2-0.

Strev is great value.  Moving on from Zach isn't a move any football mind would have done.  Talking about him in this tone is knee jerk.  I did love Brown and he will be a star but we prioritized other players over him which was the right decision imo.  Losing Hardrick, Bailey and Grant has hurt no doubt but we could sign them all.

It's two games, we need to allow the teams some grace before we right them off and the roster moves that were done.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 15, 2024, 12:52:33 AMA lot will depend on what the injury situation looks like.  If we are down even half of the injured WR, RB, DE, DT, DB on the 6GIR, then ya, even if we're winning buckets (which we won't) it will be clear that we need to fill some of those ranks with vets from elsewhere.  And since they won't play for ELC, the only way you get any vets is by having free SMS.  The 6GIR will give us back maybe enough for ELCs, it will take some restructuring to give us back enough to pick up vets.

No, but a can't-play-prone player is always of lower value to teams.  Look at Jeffcoat, the epitome of this situation.  And if the can't-play-prone player is also a league's top-paid player... well surely that gives you some wiggle room.

Brady, of course, isn't can't-play-prone, so I'm mostly looking at Kenny.  Missed half of '22 with EDM due to injury.  Missed half of '23 with us due to criminal conviction problems.  Now will miss half of '24 due to a fracture.  All roughly speaking, of course.  So since returning to WPG has he given us the value we expected and are paying for?  Not by a long shot.  Is it his fault?  Well, '23 is, but of course fractures are not.  But it still counts against him in the grand calculation of value.

The cool part is, if he restructures to help out the team, he wins as much as the team does.  When it's time to re-sign Kenny I guarantee you games-missed enters into the calculation.  If he restructures to $250k this year, I guarantee you it makes it easier for us to pull the trigger on a re-sign vs just letting him walk a la Jeffcoat or Nick Moore.

If he produces in '24 about as much as he did in '23, and he's up for re-signing next FA at $300k, I'll bet money right now we let him walk.  So why not do what makes him look like an altruistic hero, helps the team, and helps him get re-signed down the road?

Most re-structures are during the off season.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2024, 01:15:11 PMStrev was cheap, the big money went to offensive stars.Strev is great value.  Moving on from Zach isn't a move any football mind would have done.  Talking about him in this tone is knee jerk.  I did love Brown and he will be a star but we prioritized other players over him which was the right decision imo.  Losing Hardrick, Bailey and Grant has hurt no doubt but we could sign them all.

It's two games, we need to allow the teams some grace before we right them off and the roster moves that were done.

Actually many great football minds said the exact opposite in several discussions I have had. 

Salary, age were the the main concerns. They developed Brown into a starter then let him walk, could have gone younger, cheaper and most likely better.  Especially when you consider the talent they could have retained and getting a decent return for Zach.

A decision that will likely prevent a 5th GC appearance and trigger a rebuild in a GC year that could have huge financial consequences  if not corrected.

Now, my hot take?  A former BC QB bouncing around the NFL right now comes back to the CFL in blue and gold later in the season.  One can dream....

Quote from: BLUEBOMBER on June 15, 2024, 06:16:12 AMClearly we should have found money for Hardrick. I don't see how the big bucks we are paying Streveler is an improvement over Brown.

Replacing Hardrick was not an issue.  Finding the $SMS for Hardrick would mean not signing BO20 or DS83, or both.  Totally fine with that decision.

We are paying Streveler ptobably less than half what we would have had to pay Brown to keep him.  Again, a very prudent decision.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 15, 2024, 03:09:07 PMActually many great football minds said the exact opposite in several discussions I have had. 

Salary, age were the the main concerns. They developed Brown into a starter then let him walk, could have gone younger, cheaper and most likely better.  Especially when you consider the talent they could have retained and getting a decent return for Zach.

A decision that will likely prevent a 5th GC appearance and trigger a rebuild in a GC year that could have huge financial consequences  if not corrected.

Now, my hot take?  A former BC QB bouncing around the NFL right now comes back to the CFL in blue and gold later in the season.  One can dream....

Brown was not proven, is not proven, yet.  I was one that suggested we could move on from Zach and keep Brown, which would basically be a rebuild moment.  Had I known Streveler would be available, might have been even more in favour of the move.

But Collaros has led the team to 4 GC appearances, winning 50% of them.  You wouldn't have gotten back a lot for Zach if he was traded, nor would we have retained any players (OK, maybe Houston) with extra $SMS.  I don't think even if we had the $SMS we would have matched SSK's offer to Hardrick, and we did keep BO20 and DS83.

While many are ready to move on from Zach after the first two games, I wouldn't bet against him.  Now, if Rourke ever came available and Collaros hasn't righted the ship by mid season, sure.  Not sure how you make it work, maybe a small 2024 salaray and a huge bump, guaranteed, in 2025...

Quote from: Road Griller on June 15, 2024, 03:09:07 PMActually many great football minds said the exact opposite in several discussions I have had. 

Salary, age were the the main concerns. They developed Brown into a starter then let him walk, could have gone younger, cheaper and most likely better.  Especially when you consider the talent they could have retained and getting a decent return for Zach.

A decision that will likely prevent a 5th GC appearance and trigger a rebuild in a GC year that could have huge financial consequences  if not corrected.

Now, my hot take?  A former BC QB bouncing around the NFL right now comes back to the CFL in blue and gold later in the season.  One can dream....

All of those great football minds are all different characters in your " head ".  Even if Rourke returns to the CFL it most likely happens for 2025 season. While several teams would be interested, none will have $600K floating round in their SMS even if they cut their starter due to advance bonus payments.

Of all the teams, WPG having teh 2025 GC would put us in the "most needed" spot, *IF* Collaros stumbles this year.

If Collaros can't turn it around, his "retirement" would open the cap space.  With Lawler's contract up as well, there can be lots of cap space if needed.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 15, 2024, 03:09:07 PMActually many great football minds said the exact opposite in several discussions I have had. 

Salary, age were the the main concerns. They developed Brown into a starter then let him walk, could have gone younger, cheaper and most likely better.  Especially when you consider the talent they could have retained and getting a decent return for Zach.

A decision that will likely prevent a 5th GC appearance and trigger a rebuild in a GC year that could have huge financial consequences  if not corrected.

Now, my hot take?  A former BC QB bouncing around the NFL right now comes back to the CFL in blue and gold later in the season.  One can dream....

Like much of what you posted here thus far its your opinion not backed by facts.  You are free to post what you like but your take on things are a little over the top.  You seam to be more interested in being right and piling on than contributing to the discussion / debate.  Facts are Zach is and has been the best QB in the league for a long time.  Proven winner.  Brown has promise, Zach has the rings.  Agree with Blue In BC regarding the convos with the great football minds (in your head).  Zach has looked bad.  That doesn't mean that will continue.  Let's let the team play a number of games before we make any conclusions.  The Grey Cup is awarded in the late fall not now.  Teams prove their worth by labour day.  Bad start yes, but let's have some faith.  Injuries are our enemy at the moment.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 15, 2024, 12:27:10 AMWow.  How quickly many of you guys forget all of the CFL contract restructures in recent years.  This is not unprecedented for injured, underperforming, or even just overpaid players.

And some of these players come out and say they are doing it to help the team sign winners and win games.

Big names who have restructured contracts lower in recent years:

Vernon Adams Jr in BC
Bo Levi Mitchell in HAM
Masoli in OTT
Adam Bighill in WPG
Mike Reilly in BC

At the time of the restructure, all of them were either on the downtrend (however slight) or having injury problems.  If you don't believe me, just google "contract restructure <player name>".

So those teams and players didn't think it "sent the wrong message": actually it's the opposite, they are saying "I'm currently not worthy of that huge salary and/or I would rather my team have more SMS to surround me with better talent for the good of the team".

No one is talking about forcing anyone.  But the idea can be put out there in Bomber Land.  Then let FIFO sort itself out amongst the players, if that's what they want.

All of these things happen in the off season to free up space in FA. Signing a body for a few games at the end of the season doesn't require major restructuring.

This is a perfectly acceptable topic to bring up, just not in week 2. It's something we can debate after the season.

Quote from: Jesse on June 15, 2024, 05:57:00 PMAll of these things happen in the off season to free up space in FA. Signing a body for a few games at the end of the season doesn't require major restructuring.

This is a perfectly acceptable topic to bring up, just not in week 2. It's something we can debate after the season.

Perfect example of balance here.  Well said.

Bombers have looked bad in the past when we lost our run game. We saw that when Harris was a Bomber and missed part or entire games. Ditto with Oliveria missing most of TC and then getting injured in game 1.

Our offence has been a balanced attack and we're lacking that at the moment. Add the fact of 2 rookie receivers, 2 changes on the OL, changes at QB and 5 or 6 newbies on defence, the team has not looked good.

Is Collaros struggling, absolutely but it is a team game and we're into a forced transition due to free agency and injuries in 2024.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 15, 2024, 04:44:39 PMAll of those great football minds are all different characters in your " head ".  Even if Rourke returns to the CFL it most likely happens for 2025 season. While several teams would be interested, none will have $600K floating round in their SMS even if they cut their starter due to advance bonus payments.

Well, sorry to burst your bubble but the people know football.  Particularly the QB position.  But you are free to believe what you want.

We can have it, release Zach, Biggie and bingo.  There it is, other vets can also be released after LD.  Remember, if he comes in for the last 9 games that is all we are paying for.

Even if we go over, pay the fine and lose the pick even if needed.  It will pay for itself 10x over.

After the flea flicker against the Al's people were streaming out of the stands and out the doors.  Those were dollar bills leaving the stands early.  Don't think for a second the brass didn't notice. 

There is an entire new generation of fans at the games now, they are used to winning, can't afford to lose them. They are not that invested yet.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2024, 05:53:10 PMLike much of what you posted here thus far its your opinion not backed by facts.  You are free to post what you like but your take on things are a little over the top.  You seam to be more interested in being right and piling on than contributing to the discussion / debate.  Facts are Zach is and has been the best QB in the league for a long time.  Proven winner.  Brown has promise, Zach has the rings.  Agree with Blue In BC regarding the convos with the great football minds (in your head).  Zach has looked bad.  That doesn't mean that will continue.  Let's let the team play a number of games before we make any conclusions.  The Grey Cup is awarded in the late fall not now.  Teams prove their worth by labour day.  Bad start yes, but let's have some faith.  Injuries are our enemy at the moment.

Well, in  fairness this is a forum where people do share their opinions.  I am not the only one.  Maybe  people I talk to know the QB position?  That can also be true.  Whether you believe it or not is up to you.

Zach's last 4 games, 0 td's , 4 int's.  1-3 WL record.  Let's see what Friday brings.  Hopefully he turns it around but a little Streveler mixed it would be a welcome change IMO and may take some heat off.

Brown has a bright future in the CFL, very few disagree.  Already has the CFL record for most consecutive TD's without throwing an INT they said Thursday iirc.  Pretty impressive, I wish him all the best.

Brown definitely has a bright future. I know its not the popular thing to do, but i would have kept him and let Zach go. He's on the decline, and has but a few seasons left, less at the current rate he's going. You're correct, he has looked awful in the last 4 games, and didn't look good in the Grey Cup. Hiccup or trend?? I say trend. If Rourke surfaces, we'd be absolutely foolish not to go after him, but there's another 7 teams thinking the same thing. Ironically, I think BC sticks with VAJ, I wouldn't I d dump him in a second for Rourke.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 15, 2024, 07:05:39 PMWell, sorry to burst your bubble but the people know football.  Particularly the QB position.  But you are free to believe what you want.

We can have it, release Zach, Biggie and bingo.  There it is, other vets can also be released after LD.  Remember, if he comes in for the last 9 games that is all we are paying for.

Even if we go over, pay the fine and lose the pick even if needed.  It will pay for itself 10x over.

After the flea flicker against the Al's people were streaming out of the stands and out the doors.  Those were dollar bills leaving the stands early.  Don't think for a second the brass didn't notice. 

There is an entire new generation of fans at the games now, they are used to winning, can't afford to lose them. They are not that invested yet.

The people that know QB's: Miller, Walters, O'Shea and Pierce.

Go ahead and feel free to name a couple of your people that know QB's. Oh yeah, you don't like providing actual information.

Not one media big names have come close to suggesting what you are. Tick, tock, tick tock.

Quote from: dd on June 16, 2024, 01:47:30 AMBrown definitely has a bright future. I know its not the popular thing to do, but i would have kept him and let Zach go. He's on the decline, and has but a few seasons left, less at the current rate he's going. You're correct, he has looked awful in the last 4 games, and didn't look good in the Grey Cup. Hiccup or trend?? I say trend. If Rourke surfaces, we'd be absolutely foolish not to go after him, but there's another 7 teams thinking the same thing. Ironically, I think BC sticks with VAJ, I wouldn't I d dump him in a second for Rourke.

Brown could be a great player in the future, not necessarily 2024. We'll see but he has talent. OTOH, it will depend on the talent around him and coaching. That hasn't been a good picture for Ottawa recently. He may not have gotten a chance to start elsewhere but there was also a negative aspect of choosing Ottawa.

I think we can understand the thought of re-signing him and trading Collaros but that was also a risk.

The Bombers didn't look great in the Grey Cup but were within 30 seconds of winning. It's still a team game.

Collaros hasn't looked good in 2 regular season games but did anyone on the team look good? I'd include some really bad coaching in game and from a very conservative strategy point of view as well.

Again, we were 1st and goal from the 7 yard line and within a minute of winning. Collaros didn't play well there was blame to spread around.

Case in point: My immediate thought on the pass to Schoen was for him to take another step forward. Chances are the DB runs right through him and draws a PI. He may have actually caught the ball still inside the goal area.

Football is a game of inches and what if's.

Fans often put to much blame on the QB for failure and too much praise for winning.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 15, 2024, 07:08:34 AMNow Brown and Streveler for under 400 would have been the best case scenario for the team IMO.  Less than Zach is making alone I believe and far more productive.

Strev would not have signed with Winnipeg to back up Brown. He's here because he expects to start when Collaros is spent.

Quote from: dd on June 16, 2024, 01:47:30 AMBrown definitely has a bright future. I know its not the popular thing to do, but i would have kept him and let Zach go. He's on the decline, and has but a few seasons left, less at the current rate he's going. You're correct, he has looked awful in the last 4 games, and didn't look good in the Grey Cup. Hiccup or trend?? I say trend. If Rourke surfaces, we'd be absolutely foolish not to go after him, but there's another 7 teams thinking the same thing. Ironically, I think BC sticks with VAJ, I wouldn't I d dump him in a second for Rourke.

That's the kind of move dynasties make.  A  Huffer, Wally move.

That is why they were at the top of their game for so long, always in the hunt.  Making the tough decisions was easy for them.

Last 4 games have been not good enough, let's see what Friday has in store for Zach.  BC looked good tonight, and you are right they will stick with Big Play VA.  They have done well prepping for their GC at home.

NR would be a great addition here and help save the 2025 GC at home for us.  No question there.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 16, 2024, 05:03:44 AMThe experts exist in your head.  Thanks for coming out.  Slow clap.  I have heard it all, many great football minds but none are named because of stranger danger lol.  Facts would be helpful in the future.

You are simply interested in trying to prove your narrative correct.  You have no interest in anything other than that.

Your narrative, not a single person in the world thought keeping Brown over Collaros going younger and saving SMS was a good idea for the future.

My narrative, yes people did. 

You , I want their names or it's not true and they don't exist. And you continue this circular argument.

Let's move on.  Believe what you want.  It's all good.

Friday the rubber will hit the road, let's see what they have.  It's going to be an interesting night at the stadium.  Can't wait to get there.  An upset over BC would be awesome. 

Quote from: Doublezero on June 16, 2024, 02:49:54 AMStrev would not have signed with Winnipeg to back up Brown. He's here because he expects to start when Collaros is spent.

This is a  possibility, or he could have bet on himself to win the job over Brown with his one year deal.

That said he will get his shot.  I think he is going to do very well, will there be rough patches?  Yes , but a steady improvement is what we need at the QB position.  He is in his prime, just needs to play to gain the valuable experience necessary to succeed.

Would be the day I'm taking one for the "team" during the season when my livelihood is at stake! Maybe if on verge of a championship I could consider it, but the ways things are right now that is not looking too good. So why should I give up cash I negotiated in good faith before the season or the year before? You are nuts if you think this is will help things. Shuttling in cast offs at the expense of veterans who have been loyal to the team. Give your head a shake! :D That's A VERY SHORT TERM thinking plan. The Manitoba Mafia has set things up for long term gains over many years. Not short term nonsense like Brandan Taman used to do.

Restructure in the off season, but not now. A stupid question to even bring up. Sure late in season bring in some vets cut from the NFL or elsewhere who can really help if you have a legitimate chance to make hay in the playoffs. As long as you make it to the show (ie: playoffs), anything can happen.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 16, 2024, 05:35:29 AMYour narrative, not a single person in the world thought keeping Brown over Collaros going younger and saving SMS was a good idea for the future.

My narrative, yes people did. 

You , I want their names or it's not true and they don't exist. And you continue this circular argument.

Let's move on.  Believe what you want.  It's all good.

Friday the rubber will hit the road, let's see what they have.  It's going to be an interesting night at the stadium.  Can't wait to get there.  An upset over BC would be awesome. 

Some people quickly forget they wanted to keep Nichols over Collaros! :D Looks laughable now and I was a VERY ARDENT supported of keep Collaros over Nichols. Was not even a question to me. You go with the WINNER who just brought you a cup and then a second one right after.

Collaros is not done, he's just rusty with the stupid pre-season plan by O'Shea and company of not playing the vets. TIMING is so crucial on offence especially. Need real game reps for that, not only practice time. Now losing Lawler does not help, Olivera banged up. Schoen has not done much. Wolitarski and the new WR probably the best receivers so far.

Biggie looked pretty good back in. D line got some good pressures last game and sacks. It WILL come around I predict. This is just not the year of wall to wall of a first place ride. Just need to ride the wave and even if they go nowhere this year, next year with the home GC is really what Walters should be aiming for longer term. Use that year to REALLY build up your war chest for future down years as you can't win every year even though in theory you want to! ;)

Maybe Zach can convince his best bud Travis Kelce to show up for a few games later in the year!! :) A big tight end to plow over puny linebackers!  :D Run the old Vince Lombardi sweep of the Packers! ;)

Quote from: ichabod_crane on June 16, 2024, 06:24:07 AMWould be the day I'm taking one for the "team" during the season when my livelihood is at stake! Maybe if on verge of a championship I could consider it, but the ways things are right now that is not looking too good. So why should I give up cash I negotiated in good faith before the season or the year before?

Many of you are caught up on the "restructures are only in FA!" point.  Is there anything in CFL CBA that stops it?  No?  Then it's a valid option.

And you proved the point above saying you wouldn't do it except "maybe if on the verge of a championship"!  So a team/player could consider it in-season, as per your own words.

Bighill (and many others across the league) have done the very thing of take "one for the team", many times.  Biggie allowed restructuring of his salary down massively in the last few seasons.  Remember: highest paid D player for a short time!  When he saw his performance couldn't match the pay (for whatever reason) and he wanted his team to win rather than lose, he took big pay cuts.  And it helped him too: it's not just altruism.  It extended his life here and allowed him to become a fixture, franchise guy and fan fave.

The "when" here is important because only in-season adjustments will help our SMS right now.  And we need help right now.

If the $200k+ crowd each relieve $10k, that's like $50k we can tack onto an otherwise-ELC guy, meaning we can sign a mid-high vet IMP on DL instead of 4th string TC cuts.  $10k on $200k is 5%.  Dudes can't sacrifice 5% of an arguably bloated salary to go from LOSER to WINNER?  If we keep this up, they'll be losing $10k in playoff/GC money anyhow.

Quote from: ichabod_crane on June 16, 2024, 06:24:07 AMYou are nuts if you think this is will help things. Shuttling in cast offs at the expense of veterans who have been loyal to the team. Give your head a shake! :D That's A VERY SHORT TERM thinking plan. The Manitoba Mafia has set things up for long term gains over many years. Not short term nonsense like Brandan Taman used to do.

As I've pointed out many times, cast-offs secured the 2019 GC win.  Aging vet cast-offs like Ellingson helped get us to cups in subsequent years.  Lemon and Sankey were unwanted cast-offs in 2023 too.  How'd that work out for the team that found the SMS to sign them?

Answer why you think 4th string TC cuts are better than some of the best cast-offs and couch-sitters out there (immediately, and/or by vet cutdown day)?

And you didn't read or understand my proposition.  I'm not saying you take our superstars aside and say "restructure or you're cut".  No, I'm saying they talk among themselves, or we whisper the idea in their ears, and they go to KW and say "if we took a small cut will that help the team buy some quality vet players"?  It would be the players doing it to win, with no force or coercion.

Besides what I've suggested, I've yet to hear anyone coming up with an alternative idea to free up enough SMS to buy some Lemon/Sankey level quality.  Is everyone's idea really to roll with 4th stringer TC cuts?  When they get injured, then we hit up the 5th stringers??

I'm not saying my idea is ideal, or feasibly, or even good.  But it is an idea, and it can be done very quickly, and could lead to real results.  I doubt it'll occur, but at least it got the conversation about personnel improvement going!

Quote from: Doublezero on June 16, 2024, 02:49:54 AMStrev would not have signed with Winnipeg to back up Brown. He's here because he expects to start when Collaros is spent.

I'm 100% in agreement.  He's clearly the starter if Zach gets injured, and he's 100% sitting in the heir-apparent seat.  At worst he waits until 2026 when him & Zach win the cup at home in 2025.  Zach will finally (probably) be too old to keep going in '26.

Quote from: Jesse on June 15, 2024, 05:57:00 PMThis is a perfectly acceptable topic to bring up, just not in week 2. It's something we can debate after the season.

If there's no law against contract changes in-season, then nothing to stop them now.  Purely voluntary (well, FIFO will kick in if a couple big names do it first, but no management coercion).

It's actually brilliant because if you're Kenny starting yet another season missing 8+ games, don't you have a pang of guilt that you may not be earning all of your league-best salary?  Why not give a miniscule little back to the team to return mid-season to a .750 team instead of a .250 team??  Same for unprecedented-salary-holdout WM-had-to-step-in-it-was-so-preposterous Brady?

It just needs someone to draw up the math, have the vet signing name idea in hand, and present the option.  If they all hate the idea, great, forget it and have fun with the 4th stringers botching every 3rd play.

We also have to be extremely careful and strategic in how we take the non-ELCs off of the 6GIR... we will almost certainly go over-cap again if we take Kenny, Lawson and Parker and maybe even Haba off the 6G after 5 weeks...

I think for once we really will be stuck leaving many guys on the 6G for the full 6+.

That reminds me, after the 6 is up, do they go on another full 6 or can we pull them with full SMS savings in (say) week 8?

And why on earth would we put any player who was going to be out for 2+ weeks on the 1GIR?  Like Brady.  Why wouldn't we just put everyone on the 6G?  What if what we think is 2 weeks for Brady turns into 6.  Then we get the royal shaft in terms of SMS.

Is there a downside to 6G'ing everyone?

Already, in hindsight, Brady probably should have been on the 6G coming out of TC.

Zach is the guy.  Think Ricky Ray.  He's the Ricky Ray of right now.  He'll still win you a cup.

You simply don't cut the guy just voted #1 best player in the league.  You don't cut the guy who took you to 4 GCs.

A Zach (known winner) bird in the hand is always worth more than a Dru (maybe winner) in the bush.

There is zero ZERO chance we cut Zach before his contract is up unless he turns into post-injury Matt Nichols.  And that won't happen.  Didn't happen to Ricky Ray.

In the words of the immortal PJ: end of.

As many said: team sport.  Even some Rider fans I've been reading know the deal: a weaker OL equals worse QB play.  Call that 40% of Zach's problems.  Weak run game due to lame Brady and good-but-not-franchise Johnny: call that 20% of Zach's problems.  Weak rookie receivers and whiffing rusty vets so far: another 20%.  Oh, and let's add in some bonus blame for Buck basically stinking the joint out with stale, predictable calls for quite a while now.

That leaves about 20% I'd blame squarely on Zach.  He hasn't dialed it in very well yet.  He has off-season rust.  His pocket presence isn't as good as 2 years ago.  His escapability has gone down (partially because teams plan to contain his favorite exits though).  And he sometimes gets fooled by trick schemes by Ds (again, planning for years on how to beat Zach/WPG though).

I can handle a 20% down Zach, especially knowing he'll likely claw back 10% of that.  A resultant 10% down Zach is still better than almost every other QB.

The 80/20 rule says we need to fix the bigger problems first: OL weakness, run game, receivers.  If you fix much of those, Zach will look like a #1 again.  Our QB is basically the least of our worries right now.  (But I'd still want him to contribute a couple of $10k's to sign some better players!)

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 16, 2024, 09:45:08 AMIt's actually brilliant because if you're Kenny starting yet another season missing 8+ games, don't you have a pang of guilt that you may not be earning all of your league-best salary?  Why not give a miniscule little back to the team to return mid-season to a .750 team instead of a .250 team??  Same for unprecedented-salary-holdout WM-had-to-step-in-it-was-so-preposterous Brady?

Ahh no. He is already giving up cash on the Bombers salary cap + if he is truly injured long term insurance will cover that. So he OWES The Bombers nothing in my view. That is how pro-sports contracts work. These players are not charity cases.

Sure if he WANTS to do it, go right ahead, but to expect him to have some guilt over a contract he and the Bombers both signed in good faith is ridiculous. Sorry for my tone, but I almost would NEVER give up part of my salary to my employer unless they or I had a very VERY good reason. To clear up salary cap et al is NOT a good enough reason as players have usually a short shelf life so need to maximize earning power all they can.

Biggie is lining himself up for his post career in Winnipeg which is a very different situation. In that case he will take one for the team for longer term prospects after his playing career. Not all players have this kind of oppourtunity on the team or the city they play for unfortunately. It's just a fact!

Hold outs have happened forever in pro sports and other business. Nothing new even though I don't like them. All I know is if you miss two+ more weeks on a holdout or strike you ALMOST NEVER Make that money back which you have lost. So it's a gamble. It better pay off big time or you have just cost yourself some cash for your future you will NEVER get back most of the time. 

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 16, 2024, 09:45:08 AMIf there's no law against contract changes in-season, then nothing to stop them now.  Purely voluntary (well, FIFO will kick in if a couple big names do it first, but no management coercion).

It's actually brilliant because if you're Kenny starting yet another season missing 8+ games, don't you have a pang of guilt that you may not be earning all of your league-best salary?  Why not give a miniscule little back to the team to return mid-season to a .750 team instead of a .250 team??  Same for unprecedented-salary-holdout WM-had-to-step-in-it-was-so-preposterous Brady?

It just needs someone to draw up the math, have the vet signing name idea in hand, and present the option.  If they all hate the idea, great, forget it and have fun with the 4th stringers botching every 3rd play.

No law against it.

Just no real benefit either.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 16, 2024, 05:35:29 AMYour narrative, not a single person in the world thought keeping Brown over Collaros going younger and saving SMS was a good idea for the future.

My narrative, yes people did. 

You , I want their names or it's not true and they don't exist. And you continue this circular argument.

Let's move on.  Believe what you want.  It's all good.

Friday the rubber will hit the road, let's see what they have.  It's going to be an interesting night at the stadium.  Can't wait to get there.  An upset over BC would be awesome. 

I never said some people didn't make the argument to keep Brown and move away from Collaros.  They made reasonable arguments as did the larger group suggesting it was a bad idea.

There are some very long term knowledgeable posters on this forum.

Our argument is not circular. Your argument is trying to make the minority position as the right decision with the language you choose. Claims of " people I know " etc etc. All of your posts are to bash the team and or Collaros.

Go figure.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 16, 2024, 09:58:12 AMWe also have to be extremely careful and strategic in how we take the non-ELCs off of the 6GIR... we will almost certainly go over-cap again if we take Kenny, Lawson and Parker and maybe even Haba off the 6G after 5 weeks...

I think for once we really will be stuck leaving many guys on the 6G for the full 6+.

That reminds me, after the 6 is up, do they go on another full 6 or can we pull them with full SMS savings in (say) week 8?

And why on earth would we put any player who was going to be out for 2+ weeks on the 1GIR?  Like Brady.  Why wouldn't we just put everyone on the 6G?  What if what we think is 2 weeks for Brady turns into 6.  Then we get the royal shaft in terms of SMS.

Is there a downside to 6G'ing everyone?

Already, in hindsight, Brady probably should have been on the 6G coming out of TC.

A team can never be certain how long an injury will last. It could be more than 1 week and less than 6 weeks. A player can't practice until after 5 weeks on the 6 game IR.

At this point we aren't sure Brady will play this week, or next for that matter. Daily IR reports early may give us more info but we certainly don't want to rush him back.

Bighill was only on the 6 game IR for 1 game. I'm not sure if 1 game IR is available within the rules during TC.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 16, 2024, 01:12:10 PMI never said some people didn't make the argument to keep Brown and move away from Collaros.  They made reasonable arguments as did the larger group suggesting it was a bad idea.

There are some very long term knowledgeable posters on this forum.

Our argument is not circular. Your argument is trying to make the minority position as the right decision with the language you choose. Claims of " people I know " etc etc. All of your posts are to bash the team and or Collaros.

Go figure.

You didn't, blue for life did and that's who I was replying to post 36, not that it matters. The subsequent post I quoted was since removed.

Anyway, yes there are knowledgeable posters here.  No question.

Some even attend every game live, record and watch the game the next night going over thing they seen the night before and breaking down what they witnessed.

Some have for years, along with watching every other CFL and assessing their every play.  Heck, that could be me?  You never know.

Some of he best discussions happen in the tailgate areas prior to the games, high level coaches, players who have played at a high level.  Some of the best are the 30-40+ year old timers who have seen it all.

We all want the same thing, long term Bomber success.

Trust me, there were people who wanted to go the Brown route and had very good reasons why.  Unfortunately it may just playing out in front of our eyes. We have an ace in hole in Streveler, maybe we should use him.  Couldn't hurt to try for a series/two or even a quarter at this point.

Make teams prepare for both styles of QB's every week and keep them guessing all game.  Why not?  Can't keep burning games early on, the L's are piling up.  Time to stop being stubborn and think inside the box.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 16, 2024, 05:35:29 AMYour narrative, not a single person in the world thought keeping Brown over Collaros going younger and saving SMS was a good idea for the future.

My narrative, yes people did. 

You , I want their names or it's not true and they don't exist. And you continue this circular argument.

Let's move on.  Believe what you want.  It's all good.

Friday the rubber will hit the road, let's see what they have.  It's going to be an interesting night at the stadium.  Can't wait to get there.  An upset over BC would be awesome. 

My narrative is not what you stated it is, it was simply in response to you claiming that great football minds indicated they would have moved on from Collaros in favor of Brown.  What to do with Brown was a hot debate last season on the forum.  That's now water under the bridge.  To be clear I wanted to keep Brown and would have signed him during season (at least tried) for a reasonable salary.  I doubt that was realistic as he likely wanted more than we could afford and wanted to start.  I was amazed at the players we did sign and ended up happy with what management was able to do with the cap space we had.

Good idea to move on, thanks for that.  I'll no longer bring the issue up.  Yes Fri is a key game and will be telling.  Equally excited.  Go Blue!

Quote from: Road Griller on June 16, 2024, 02:04:12 PMYou didn't, blue for life did and that's who I was replying to post 36, not that it matters. The subsequent post I quoted was since removed.

Anyway, yes there are knowledgeable posters here.  No question.

Some even attend every game live, record and watch the game the next night going over thing they seen the night before and breaking down what they witnessed.

Some have for years, along with watching every other CFL and assessing their every play.  Heck, that could be me?  You never know.

Some of he best discussions happen in the tailgate areas prior to the games, high level coaches, players who have played at a high level.  Some of the best are the 30-40+ year old timers who have seen it all.

We all want the same thing, long term Bomber success.

Trust me, there were people who wanted to go the Brown route and had very good reasons why.  Unfortunately it may just playing out in front of our eyes. We have an ace in hole in Streveler, maybe we should use him.  Couldn't hurt to try for a series/two or even a quarter at this point.

Make teams prepare for both styles of QB's every week and keep them guessing all game.  Why not?  Can't keep burning game early on, the L's are piling up.  Time to stop being stubborn and think inside the box.

I record every Bomber game and re-watch it the next day. Then I may watch it again as the season progresses or during the off season. I have over 230 games from 1985 - 2005 recorded on VHS that I sent to the Bombers in 2006 to record onto DVD's for the use of past players.

I live in Vancouver so I haven't been to a Bomber game in Winnipeg since 1963!! That's a disadvantage to posters that get to go to some practice sessions or most games at home.

Succession planning of older players happens every year. There were those that balked at not re-signing A. Harris. As it turns out we wouldn't have had the emergence of Brady and saved some SMS as well. OTOH, A. Harris played a role in our defeat in the 2022 Grey Cup.

I like Brown and understand the thought. We won't know how it plays out until later in the year. As I said, QB's get too much grief when losing and too much credit when winning. Last year I mentioned I thought we over paid to keep Collaros at the expense of other players. That's still my position whether he is winning or losing.

Honestly I don't think other teams need to prepare for Streveler. He's not a prolific passer and he's certainly not a better passer than Collaros.

Put him in the game earlier and / or a few more times is not the worst idea. However very few teams do that anymore even if they have a good # 2. There are pros and cons and it depends on field position and game situation.

Broadcasters have even mentioned many teams are using their # 1  QB on short yardage lately. That's risky but seems to be current trend.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 16, 2024, 02:45:12 PMHonestly I don't think other teams need to prepare for Streveler. He's not a prolific passer and he's certainly not a better passer than Collaros.

Put him in the game earlier and / or a few more times is not the worst idea. However very few teams do that anymore even if they have a good # 2. There are pros and cons and it depends on field position and game situation.

Broadcasters have even mentioned many teams are using their # 1  QB on short yardage lately. That's risky but seems to be current trend.

You need to make it out to a game, it's been way to long!

We have not seen Streveler run the number one offence since 2019.  The 'he can't throw' argument doesn't hold water right now. There is no way working with the NFL  QB coaches  along with maturing has not improved his game.

We witnessed a raw Streveler in 2019 and he was still pretty good for his inexperience.  The smart money says he is much improved. Just needs a chance, 10 RPO downs a game minimum. 

Heck, give him the first three series of the game at home.  The D will be off guard and scramble to adjust then throw Zach in to throw them off again.  He is not doing Zach any favours right now, teams are teeing off on him.  He won't last the season at this rate anyway.

MOS used to be creative when he was a ST coach, he needs to go back to those days. 

I was one of the people who suggested keeping Brown and trading Collaros.  That was a very plausible option.

Just for reference, the Bombers have madea  very similar move this year.

To prevent a very good asset from moving to another team, they promoted him and shelved a HOF asset.

Yes, I'm talking about Younger/Hall.

So, they did not want to lose someone that could be the future of the team, and in doing so, moved on from a huge talent that has served the team well, bringing the team for 4 GC's in a row.

Was moving on from Zach an option?

Definitely.

Was moving on from Hall the best idea?

We will see.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 16, 2024, 03:25:10 PMYou need to make it out to a game, it's been way to long!

We have not seen Streveler run the number one offence since 2019.  The 'he can't throw' argument doesn't hold water right now. There is no way working with the NFL  QB coaches  along with maturing has not improved his game.

We witnessed a raw Streveler in 2019 and he was still pretty good for his inexperience.  The smart money says he is much improved. Just needs a chance, 10 RPO downs a game minimum. 

Heck, give him the first three series of the game at home.  The D will be off guard and scramble to adjust then throw Zach in to throw them off again.  He is not doing Zach any favours right now, teams are teeing off on him.  He won't last the season at this rate anyway.

MOS used to be creative when he was a ST coach, he needs to go back to those days. 

Streveler may have improved but he's yet to throw a pass in a regular season game. In the 1st pre season game he was so so. I'd disagree that the " he can't throw " doesn't hold water isn't correct until he proves he can be can.

NFL stats 27 of 40 for 231 yards with a 5.8 yard average.

It's catch 22. He has to have success / show success but he has to have more opportunity to do that. Until that happens it's just a debate.

Again the CFL doesn't use a two QB system very often unless they are playing rookies and trying to make a choice.

Most posters probably can't even name the # 2 QB on other teams. SMS reality is teams live and die with their # 1 QB.

Quote from: theaardvark on June 16, 2024, 04:20:29 PMI was one of the people who suggested keeping Brown and trading Collaros.  That was a very plausible option.

Just for reference, the Bombers have madea  very similar move this year.

To prevent a very good asset from moving to another team, they promoted him and shelved a HOF asset.

Yes, I'm talking about Younger/Hall.

So, they did not want to lose someone that could be the future of the team, and in doing so, moved on from a huge talent that has served the team well, bringing the team for 4 GC's in a row.

Was moving on from Zach an option?

Definitely.

Was moving on from Hall the best idea?

We will see.

We didn't move on from Hall we kept him around so we did lose Younger. Much different situation as there was no way to keep both Brown and Zack.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 16, 2024, 05:19:15 PMStreveler may have improved but he's yet to throw a pass in a regular season game. In the 1st pre season game he was so so. I'd disagree that the " he can't throw " doesn't hold water isn't correct until he proves he can be can.

NFL stats 27 of 40 for 231 yards with a 5.8 yard average.

It's catch 22. He has to have success / show success but he has to have more opportunity to do that. Until that happens it's just a debate.

Again the CFL doesn't use a two QB system very often unless they are playing rookies and trying to make a choice.

Most posters probably can't even name the # 2 QB on other teams. SMS reality is teams live and die with their # 1 QB.

Strev can throw a short route reasonably well. He has never shown the ability to throw medium to deep routes.  I would expect him to perform reasonably well if needed but our offense would adjust to his skills.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 16, 2024, 05:19:15 PMStreveler may have improved but he's yet to throw a pass in a regular season game. In the 1st pre season game he was so so. I'd disagree that the " he can't throw " doesn't hold water isn't correct until he proves he can be can.

NFL stats 27 of 40 for 231 yards with a 5.8 yard average.

It's catch 22. He has to have success / show success but he has to have more opportunity to do that. Until that happens it's just a debate.

Again the CFL doesn't use a two QB system very often unless they are playing rookies and trying to make a choice.

Most posters probably can't even name the # 2 QB on other teams. SMS reality is teams live and die with their # 1 QB.

It would be nice to find out where he is at, his NFL competition percentage is better than Zachs recent 40 throws.  In a muncher tougher league.

Pre season really means nothing especially because MOS didn't play anyone with him.  A real missed  opportunity IMO .  Even so he looked pretty comfortable.

Something has to give, people can't blanket statement that he can't throw in the CFL with the first team.  There is no sample size since 2019.  Zero.

We do know the 2019 spin, scramble , evade game winning end zone toss to Darvin Adams days are behind Zach.  He is not that player anymore.

Maybe Streveler can move the pocket, evade the rush and make that toss?  We know who can't.  Seems to be a pick or a sack these days.

Friday could be a rough outing, it's a young crowd and they all love Streveler and want to see him play. A slow start would not be good.  Need to come out firing on all cylinders.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 16, 2024, 05:48:46 PMWe didn't move on from Hall we kept him around so we did lose Younger. Much different situation as there was no way to keep both Brown and Zack.

Hall was kept, yes, but in a reduced role, Hall could have just as easily retired.  Yes, we would not have been able to keep Brown and Zach, but moving forward with the future over a future HOF.

I am sure Collaros will come into for this year,and maybe even next or the GC, and hopefully we will find the next Dru Brown by them for 2026.  I think, win or lose, after 2025 Zach is probably going to retire...

Quote from: theaardvark on June 16, 2024, 06:18:30 PMHall was kept, yes, but in a reduced role, Hall could have just as easily retired.  Yes, we would not have been able to keep Brown and Zach, but moving forward with the future over a future HOF.

I am sure Collaros will come into for this year,and maybe even next or the GC, and hopefully we will find the next Dru Brown by them for 2026.  I think, win or lose, after 2025 Zach is probably going to retire...

The key is Hall didn't retire we retained both.  The comparison holds no weight imo. We got the best of both worlds, retaining both ensures a smooth transition.

Developing another Dru Brown is exceptionally hard even with a decade.  That said we don't know what Brown is yet but I do see great things for him.

Predicting Zach's future is a very difficult thing to do at this time.  I have no idea nor do I see much value in that speculation at this time.

Sept 9 2023, Collaros defeats the Riders 51 - 6 and throws for 5 TDs and 300+ yards.

In 2023 he threw for the 2nd most yards, the most TD's and had the highest QB rating for the season.

Bombers were 14 - 4. Only the Argos had a better season record, noting they didn't make the Grey Cup.

I know the past is the past but lets settle down here.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 16, 2024, 08:36:46 PMSept 9 2023, Collaros defeats the Riders 51 - 6 and throws for 5 TDs and 300+ yards.

In 2023 he threw for the 2nd most yards, the most TD's and had the highest QB rating for the season.

Bombers were 14 - 4. Only the Argos had a better season record, noting they didn't make the Grey Cup.

I know the past is the past but lets settle down here.

The past indicates where you are in the present.  Nice reminder of what we are.  The call to settle down echoes my thoughts exactly.

The past is the past. It's not a predictor of the future. This year Collaros hasn't thrown a TD pass and has thrown 3 picks in 2 games.

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 16, 2024, 09:07:05 PMThe past is the past. It's not a predictor of the future. This year Collaros hasn't thrown a TD pass and has thrown 3 picks in 2 games.

So the past is the past but you use the 2 games this year as a defining line? Our win loss over 4 years of being in the last 4 Grey Cups is all washed away over 2 games?

I agree they were not good performances, but it's a little early to base the season on that.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 16, 2024, 09:36:56 PMSo the past is the past but you use the 2 games this year as a defining line? Our win loss over 4 years of being in the last 4 Grey Cups is all washed away over 2 games?

I agree they were not good performances, but it's a little early to base the season on that.

No, the last 4 years don't matter anymore. Football is a what have you done for me lately game and lately, Collaros hasn't been very good at all. Does that mean he can't get better going forward? Of course not. 
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/995/415/b30.jpg)

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 16, 2024, 10:34:19 PMNo, the last 4 years don't matter anymore. Football is a what have you done for me lately game and lately, Collaros hasn't been very good at all. Does that mean he can't get better going forward? Of course not.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/995/415/b30.jpg)

The players around him haven't played well.  You want to put all the blame on him it seems. Losing our starting RB, 2 rookie receivers, 2 changes on the OL. Losing TOP which is a factor of bad offence as well as defence not getting the opponent off the field.

Coaching decisions not allowing Collaros or most of the vets to participate in pre season and thinking that isn't a factor? Bland play calling by Buck?

Deflection my butt.

To suggest the past means nothing is over the top in my opinion.  We have build a mini dynasty and created a team culture that we might not achieve again in many years.  Our current team is aging in some areas and we have struggled this season.  Our success this year will be dependent on how we adjust and perform now but it's deeply rooted on the past success and continuity of our coaches, management and vetern core.  Yes sports is what have you done for me lately business but it's two games after many years of dominance.  You can't dismiss the success we have had and pretend it doesn't matter.  Some on here have confidence in this organization, coaches and players as we have seen greatness for many years.  That bar has been set really high and this year we might fall a little short of past success but it's to early to know.  Some on here are being way to hard and over critical of Zach imo.  Give it time, have patience.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 16, 2024, 10:48:33 PMThe players around him haven't played well.  You want to put all the blame on him it seems. Losing our starting RB, 2 rookie receivers, 2 changes on the OL. Losing TOP which is a factor of bad offence as well as defence not getting the opponent off the field.

Coaching decisions not allowing Collaros or most of the vets to participate in pre season and thinking that isn't a factor? Bland play calling by Buck?

Deflection my butt.

Facts are presented above.

No one is suggesting that Zach has forgotten how to play.  The key is, does he still have the physical ability.

His throws have been off, if it physical, or is it adjusting to a new oline and some new rec's, and not having BO20?

Picks are uncharacteristic for him, what is causing them?

We all hope that is just a little rust that he needs to shake off...

Quote from: theaardvark on June 17, 2024, 12:00:46 AMNo one is suggesting that Zach has forgotten how to play.  The key is, does he still have the physical ability.

His throws have been off, if it physical, or is it adjusting to a new oline and some new rec's, and not having BO20?

Picks are uncharacteristic for him, what is causing them?

We all hope that is just a little rust that he needs to shake off...

Rust, Oline, lack of run game are my bets

Zach throws ints always has always will.  His TD to Int ratio has always been good here.  Let's see if he can continue that.

Quote from: theaardvark on June 17, 2024, 12:00:46 AMNo one is suggesting that Zach has forgotten how to play.  The key is, does he still have the physical ability.

His throws have been off, if it physical, or is it adjusting to a new oline and some new rec's, and not having BO20?

Picks are uncharacteristic for him, what is causing them?

We all hope that is just a little rust that he needs to shake off...

A prison break of DL getting through the OL. Off the top of my head there have been several dropped balls by receivers. One deflection by the DL and one by the receiver.

I can't tell if Wilson is getting open but he's not getting many looks.

Collaros looked better in game 2 than in game 1 so there is a rust issue. I suspect he's trying too hard due to other problems on offence. He just needs to settle.

Bombers have used a balanced offence over the good years but we haven't been able to do that yet this year.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 16, 2024, 10:48:33 PMThe players around him haven't played well.  You want to put all the blame on him it seems. Losing our starting RB, 2 rookie receivers, 2 changes on the OL. Losing TOP which is a factor of bad offence as well as defence not getting the opponent off the field.

Coaching decisions not allowing Collaros or most of the vets to participate in pre season and thinking that isn't a factor? Bland play calling by Buck?

Deflection my butt.

Doubling down on your strawman arguments, eh? Yup, it's everyone but Collaros who is playing badly, coaching badly and getting injured. Collaros shouldn't take any of the blame cuz he's been great for 3 years and a playoffs. The rest shouldn't take any blame cuz we're a dynasty. 

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 16, 2024, 09:07:05 PMThe past is the past. It's not a predictor of the future. This year Collaros hasn't thrown a TD pass and has thrown 3 picks in 2 games.

This is what I said. This is what I meant. 

In last night sask hamilton game they talked about Blm  having to make changes to his playing style in order to extend his career, I would suggest its the same for Zac, he doesnt have the same mobility or offensive line,
His release needs to be quicker, be willing to take the shorter pass, and check down more often. Otherwise he might see a downturn in his effectiveness like bo experienced.

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 17, 2024, 02:55:43 PMDoubling down on your strawman arguments, eh? Yup, it's everyone but Collaros who is playing badly, coaching badly and getting injured. Collaros shouldn't take any of the blame cuz he's been great for 3 years and a playoffs. The rest shouldn't take any blame cuz we're a dynasty. This is what I said. This is what I meant.

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 17, 2024, 02:55:43 PMDoubling down on your strawman arguments, eh? Yup, it's everyone but Collaros who is playing badly, coaching badly and getting injured. Collaros shouldn't take any of the blame cuz he's been great for 3 years and a playoffs. The rest shouldn't take any blame cuz we're a dynasty. This is what I said. This is what I meant.

Look at Harris last night, under pressure all game, sacked 4 times.  Loses 2 key receivers and an online man.  Hangs in there and pulls it out.  Fantastic performance.

Zach has not played well in his last four starts.

Friday is now or never territory imo , not a great situation for sure but how long can the team let this continue and have the L's keep piling up?

Maybe try a ball control offence instead of duck and chuck.  Starts with Buck, then we find out if Zach can still sustain drives and score or is simply just done as a starter.

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 17, 2024, 02:55:43 PMDoubling down on your strawman arguments, eh? Yup, it's everyone but Collaros who is playing badly, coaching badly and getting injured. Collaros shouldn't take any of the blame cuz he's been great for 3 years and a playoffs. The rest shouldn't take any blame cuz we're a dynasty. This is what I said. This is what I meant.

Show me where I said Collaros was playing well. I've specifically said he is not playing well. If you can't see that others are not and also to blame in this mess, then you are mistaken.

There. I've said it again. Collaros is not playing well.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 17, 2024, 03:30:26 PMShow me where I said Collaros was playing well. I've specifically said he is not playing well. If you can't see that others are not and also to blame in this mess, then you are mistaken.

There. I've said it again. Collaros is not playing well.

We agree that Collaros isn't playing well. That's all I said in the first place. Why did you need to bring anything else into the convo? 

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 17, 2024, 04:09:35 PMWe agree that Collaros isn't playing well. That's all I said in the first place. Why did you need to bring anything else into the convo?

Because it's relevant to the conversation. Performance is a scale. I don't expect him to throw 5 TD's in a game. I do expect him to throw some and make less mistakes then the 2 this year. OTOH, there have been games where he hasn't been great but good enough to win.

In the last game he might have been 60% of his normal play. That's not usually enough and at the moment particularly not enough.  Offence was pressing without a run game and leaves a lot of room for mistakes.

This week is a 3 practice plus walk through at home against a tough Lions team. I have no idea what the roster will look like yet but Collaros's performance will be evaluated win or lose.

Quote from: Jesse on June 16, 2024, 01:02:37 PMNo law against it.

Just no real benefit either.

How do you get more SMS to sign some vets to fix problems then?  I'm still waiting for an alternative.

Is your solution "do nothing"?  Where "nothing" means keep signing next-next-next-man up?  If we do that then week after week we will get worse, and worse, and worse from injuries.  Things will not improve until mid/late season and top/vets (Kenny, Lawson, Parker) start returning.

Do we sit and wait in suckage and/or get worse?  Or try to do something?  I'd love to hear more ideas.  Does WFC have more ideas?  Or do we sit pat and pray?

Quote from: Road Griller on June 16, 2024, 02:04:12 PMTrust me, there were people who wanted to go the Brown route and had very good reasons why.  Unfortunately it may just playing out in front of our eyes. We have an ace in hole in Streveler, maybe we should use him.  Couldn't hurt to try for a series/two or even a quarter at this point.

Make teams prepare for both styles of QB's every week and keep them guessing all game.  Why not?  Can't keep burning games early on, the L's are piling up.  Time to stop being stubborn and think inside the box.

100% this.  We've let teams focus 100% on Zach and they've studied him to death because he was the #1 impediment for every team in the league to win the GC.  Everyone learned to cut off Zach's roll-right.  Everyone learned to bring the DEs in deep for edge contain and then double-back to sack Zach when he steps up or turtles.  Everyone does it and so Zach is toast.  Even in 2023 we saw hints of this.

I think everyone is shocked at how little we've used Strevie so far!?  Not a single end-around or pass on 2nd & 1??  No stay-in-1st-down after SY?  Holy Moses, we can't even do what we already know from 2019 is a winning scheme?

You are right we are making it way too easy on opponents, making them sigh relief and only plan against Zach plus "Prukop in a fur coat".  Make them waste half of planning / practice schemeing against Zach plus 2019+NFLexperience Strev!!

Quote from: Road Griller on June 16, 2024, 03:25:10 PMJust needs a chance, 10 RPO downs a game minimum. 

Heck, give him the first three series of the game at home.  The D will be off guard and scramble to adjust then throw Zach in to throw them off again.

I'm not sure I want him in for as many snaps as you, but it's close.  5-10% of snaps, whatever that works out to.  Yes, RPO or QB/RB option on every play.  And lots of handoffs so they don't key on "Strevie always runs himself".  Must also pass.

I wouldn't stick him in for a whole series "just 'cause", but I 100% agree with having him in more so that the D's are always on their heels.  We make it waaaay too easy on Ds so far.  I think we've fooled them on maybe 1 of every 7 plays.  Compare to MTL who has every D guessing every other snap.  No one has any idea what they'll do next and the opponents are always on their heels.  We have to get back to that kind of ball.

Quote from: Road Griller on June 16, 2024, 06:03:46 PMFriday could be a rough outing, it's a young crowd and they all love Streveler and want to see him play. A slow start would not be good.  Need to come out firing on all cylinders.

This is true.  His first snap in week 1 the crowd went nuts.  Every 3rd down gamble the crowd went nuts.  That big 2Y sneak, the crowd went nuts.

We don't let the crowd dictate who to play, but it certainly puts the gravy on the idea of playing Strevie more.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 16, 2024, 08:36:46 PMSept 9 2023, Collaros defeats the Riders 51 - 6 and throws for 5 TDs and 300+ yards.

In 2023 he threw for the 2nd most yards, the most TD's and had the highest QB rating for the season.

Bombers were 14 - 4. Only the Argos had a better season record, noting they didn't make the Grey Cup.

I know the past is the past but lets settle down here.

I firmly believe all our skill O has the capability of being that 14-4 Bombers again.  Even with the whatever noob 5th you bring in.  The skill guys didn't suddenly completely lose it because they are a year older!!  These aren't DBs.  These are R's who can have exceptionally long careers.  And I fully believe Zach will fade gracefully like Ricky Ray, not off a cliff like Matt Nichols (post injury).

Even if they slow down a step, they should be good for 13-5 or 12-6.  There really is no excuse.

If they aren't doing that after their week 1 & week 2 "pre-season rust games" then it's not them: it's the OL.  Identify the problem and fix it!

Quote from: theaardvark on June 17, 2024, 12:00:46 AMPicks are uncharacteristic for him, what is causing them?

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 17, 2024, 12:11:25 AMZach throws ints always has always will.  His TD to Int ratio has always been good here.  Let's see if he can continue that.

B4L knows the deal.  Zach has always been a gunslinger.  He doesn't care about the INTs.  He takes the shots.  He follows Gretzky's famous quote.

No, the problem isn't the INTs so far: the problem is the lack of TDs!  If he had thrown the expected 5-8 TDs so far, we wouldn't even be talking about the INTs!

And the INTs aren't coming so much as from bad throws as bad reads and D obfuscation.  Teams are using the Hall "smoke & mirrors" tricks against us and they are out-WPGing WPG.  Even the Dequoy underthrow-INT was a bad read: he needs to stare off and account for the fast FS.

Get the TDs back up and the INTs will work themselves out.  The day he stops taking shots is the day he'll become truly awful, because he'll never be a good "game manager".  He needs to be Zach.

Quote from: Pete on June 17, 2024, 03:05:41 PMIn last night sask hamilton game they talked about Blm  having to make changes to his playing style in order to extend his career, I would suggest its the same for Zac, he doesnt have the same mobility or offensive line,
His release needs to be quicker, be willing to take the shorter pass, and check down more often. Otherwise he might see a downturn in his effectiveness like bo experienced.

That could be an important avenue to explore.  But is anyone in WFC able to guide him in that manner?  Sounds good on paper, but how do we know Milanovitch has any clue?  I guess by HAM's season end we'll know.

If you look at the most successful and promising QBs of the last 3 seasons -- Kelly, VAJ, Rourke -- they all have extremely quick wind-up and release.  And they often put a lot of zip on it.  Zach looks like a sloth compared to them.  Then again, Zach has never been a speedloader.  Is this something they can work on to reduce the time for Ds to react by a few tenths?  Or are we stuck with it?

Zach also has become master at the "touch pass" with great feathering at the point of completion.  I proffer he is miles away the league-best at this.  However, this only works with enough time and enough air so that Ds cannot catch up with the R.  So many times this season we've seen him throw a perfect, eminently catchable ball, just to be swatted away right in front of our R.  All of those balls are completions if he just puts 3-6 more Y of air on it.  Is he not dialed in or has his arm strength dwindled a bit?  Or is he throwing a tad too late (my opinion)?  Figure it out Zach/staff!  This problem, at least, is fixable!

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 18, 2024, 05:37:31 AMHow do you get more SMS to sign some vets to fix problems then?  I'm still waiting for an alternative.

Is your solution "do nothing"?  Where "nothing" means keep signing next-next-next-man up?  If we do that then week after week we will get worse, and worse, and worse from injuries.  Things will not improve until mid/late season and top/vets (Kenny, Lawson, Parker) start returning.

Do we sit and wait in suckage and/or get worse?  Or try to do something?  I'd love to hear more ideas.  Does WFC have more ideas?  Or do we sit pat and pray?

The question remains who do you want to sign? Who is sitting at home that is A) better than what we have and B) so expensive that we need more SMS?

I honestly think we can sign whoever we want if we felt it was necessary. The worst case scenario is we have to pay a fine at the end of the year. I don't think restructuring any contracts is necessary to do what you're asking.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 18, 2024, 07:05:07 AMI think everyone is shocked at how little we've used Strevie so far!?  Not a single end-around or pass on 2nd & 1??  No stay-in-1st-down after SY?  Holy Moses, we can't even do what we already know from 2019 is a winning scheme?

The problem has been 2-fold with Strev. First, we haven't been getting into 2nd and short scenarios. We've been 2 and out fairly often and we're not getting into situations to put Strev on the field. Second, when we do get into the short yardage package, we haven't been getting a push. I think they've had to pull out the chains every time we've run Strev and we have been unable to run hurry up immediately after, which is where you'd see Strev stay on the field and run his package.

The alternative is just letting him take a drive or play, which I don't think would be an effective use of his abilities.

From what I understood KL89 took a $30K pay cut to start the season.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 18, 2024, 07:07:15 AMThis is true.  His first snap in week 1 the crowd went nuts.  Every 3rd down gamble the crowd went nuts.  That big 2Y sneak, the crowd went nuts.

We don't let the crowd dictate who to play, but it certainly puts the gravy on the idea of playing Strevie more.

Exactly, you had to be there to experience it.

If we are going to lose at least entertain us.  That's advantage one, advantage two is we are developing the future.  Heck we may even compete and show some fire.

We know Zach isn't getting better, and he isn't winning.

  I would start Streveler and script the first 3 series but MOS doesn't think that way.  It's full steam ahead, steady as she goes and the  icebergs should move out of the way.

We have seen this movie before.

BC would be caught off guard and scrambling because they are expecting the same old, same old.  And they will most likely get it.  Duck and chuck, two and out after two and out.

It's not like our D is exciting anymore.  They are going to bore people right out of their seats and into the car.

Quote from: Pigskin on June 18, 2024, 02:23:47 PMFrom what I understood KL89 took a $30K pay cut to start the season.

Won't do much good unless there are other players willing to take a cut to round on the roster.

I  regards to Zach adjusting his game, yes all pros need to do that.  With BLM he had a serious injury which changed his throwing motion  and he needed to work that out.  Getting healthy, figuring that our, adjusting his game and aligning his approach with the Hammy O was key.  I see a good ball club there if BLM keeps slinging.

Quote from: Jesse on June 18, 2024, 01:48:14 PMThe question remains who do you want to sign? Who is sitting at home that is A) better than what we have and B) so expensive that we need more SMS?

I honestly think we can sign whoever we want if we felt it was necessary. The worst case scenario is we have to pay a fine at the end of the year. I don't think restructuring any contracts is necessary to do what you're asking.

A) Tons of guys couch sitting.  Basically every player who played 3+ years in the CFL is better than the 4th stringers we're fielding.  Who's the WR we brought in right at the end of '23?  Ambles?  Ya, he'd be 10X better than the 2 rookie IMP WRs we're forced to field right now.

B) KW outright said it: we have no money and only ELCs would be hired after the Brady/Schoen re-signing announcements.  There is no wiggle room.  6GIR's mean we can bring in more ELCs.  Even Kenny being out doesn't free up enough to sign a vet WR.  It's not that need SMS to sign a superstar, we need SMS just to sign a middling vet like Ambles!

You think we're fielding Wheatfall on purpose (or Fox or Schmekel)?  The dude was meant as a backup to a backup and to not even dress all season if things went according to plan.  (Or substitute Wilson if you liked what Wheatfall did in week 2.)  Literally every middling vet couch sitter is better than both of these guys.  Even oldster Greg Ellingson would get more respect from Ds.

If we could sign whoever we wanted to we'd already have Kongbo or Bennett to help our completely destroyed DL, and maybe a WR until Kenny is better 10+ weeks later.

I wonder how much WM's stepping in to force the overpay of Brady is costing us right about now.  I wonder if that was KW's "emergency reserve" rainy-day fund.

I think it was around a $30k overpay forced onto KW?  Ya, that $30k would go a long way right about now to signing a real 5th WR or DL.

We need to keep this in mind before laying all the blame on KW.  And in no way am I saying having Brady isn't a good idea: I'm just pointing out the opportunity cost and the strange and rare micromanagement from above.  And it goes back to the original title of this thread...

Quote from: Pigskin on June 18, 2024, 02:23:47 PMFrom what I understood KL89 took a $30K pay cut to start the season.

That's the first I've heard of that.  Have that documented somewhere?

That would be precisely what I'm talking about!  And if he did do it, he should say he did it for the good of the team to afford upgraded players and get the ball rolling.  It shouldn't be something done in shadows.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 19, 2024, 03:53:29 AMThat's the first I've heard of that.  Have that documented somewhere?

That would be precisely what I'm talking about!  And if he did do it, he should say he did it for the good of the team to afford upgraded players and get the ball rolling.  It shouldn't be something done in shadows.

You also didn't know AB4 was injured in TC.

Quote from: Pigskin on June 19, 2024, 04:48:48 AMYou also didn't know AB4 was injured in TC.

Hey what can I say, I get 100% of my CFL info from this forum, and for some reason I didn't keep up with the TC thread until 2 weeks later.  But you guys set me straight, that's why I'm here.  Even if I read it all, I can't keep 100% of it in my head.  A lot, yes, but 100% no.  TBH I would have thought "Biggie hurt" deserved its own thread.

I hope y'all are right about Kenny as it could get any "help our team" SMS collection-plate endeavor kickstarted!

Quote from: Pigskin on June 18, 2024, 02:23:47 PMFrom what I understood KL89 took a $30K pay cut to start the season.

He took a pay cut but it doesn't hurt him. He had his contract restructured to save taxes.

he's expected to net more on his new deal as signing bonuses are taxed at a lower rate for American players.

https://3downnation.com/2024/01/16/kenny-lawler-restructures-contract-with-winnipeg-blue-bombers/

It did help the football club.

KL89 is a outstanding player, however he's just not on the field enough for the money we are paying him.

In his first 4 seasons. 53/72 regular season games. 21 TDs, only 1, 1000 yard season.

DS83: First 2 seasons, 34/36 regular season games. 26 TDs, 1441 and a 1222 yard season.

Quote from: Waffler on June 19, 2024, 05:48:11 PMHe took a pay cut but it doesn't hurt him. He had his contract restructured to save taxes.

$310->$285 cap hit?  Then yes, that's precisely what I'm asking for here!  Kenny and The Mafia should be screaming this restructure from the rooftops to the other players.  Just a wee bit of % of SMS from each top player would go a long way.

It's just too bad he did this before the other huge-names re-signed, as it doesn't have as much "look at me, I'm sacrificing" effect when done in January.

Good for Kenny!!  Every tiny cut he takes will also help him stay employed here whilst his on-field production doesn't live up to expectations.  It's a win-win for everyone.

Quote from: Pigskin on June 19, 2024, 07:07:20 PMKL89 is a outstanding player, however he's just not on the field enough for the money we are paying him.

In his first 4 seasons. 53/72 regular season games. 21 TDs, only 1, 1000 yard season.

DS83: First 2 seasons, 34/36 regular season games. 26 TDs, 1441 and a 1222 yard season.

Yes,

Kenny:
2021 out 5 games
2022 out 6 games
2023 out 6 games
2024 out at minimum 6 games

Why do we do signing bonuses for him when we know for a near fact he'll be on 6GIR every year, and thus we get less than half the SMS relief we should be entitled to?  I know it gets better tax treatment somehow in wacky ol' USA: but surely there's some other solution the CFL can use that gets us both SMS relief and player tax relief?

Why doesn't the CFL just make any signing bonuses SMS-relievable on the 6GIR on a pro-rated basis?  Seems simple enough.  Why should the league care in what form we pay players?  Why should the US tax system dictate anything at all to how the CFL teams run their operation?

And it's not some imaginary problem: this issue right here right now, by itself, probably means the difference between being able to bring in a low-middling vet vs being stuck with the TC-cuts ELCs.

I'm not saying we cut Kenny in '25 FA... I'm saying it would be nice if we could take realistic account of him missing a lot of games, and protect ourselves from the SMS fallout.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 20, 2024, 05:37:34 AM$310->$285 cap hit?  Then yes, that's precisely what I'm asking for here!  Kenny and The Mafia should be screaming this restructure from the rooftops to the other players.  Just a wee bit of % of SMS from each top player would go a long way.

It's just too bad he did this before the other huge-names re-signed, as it doesn't have as much "look at me, I'm sacrificing" effect when done in January.

Good for Kenny!!  Every tiny cut he takes will also help him stay employed here whilst his on-field production doesn't live up to expectations.  It's a win-win for everyone.

I think the topline for other team's best receiver has been established at $225k now, so even at $285k Lawler is still getting paid $60k above that.  2 maybe 3 receivers earning above $225k, Lawler, Tim White and Gino Lewis, I would not rank their performance among the top 10 receivers so far this season.  When will they ever learn? I say, when will they ever learn???  Don't overpay receivers!!!!!

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 20, 2024, 06:01:50 AMYes,

Kenny:
2021 out 5 games
2022 out 6 games
2023 out 6 games
2024 out at minimum 6 games

Why do we do signing bonuses for him when we know for a near fact he'll be on 6GIR every year, and thus we get less than half the SMS relief we should be entitled to?  I know it gets better tax treatment somehow in wacky ol' USA: but surely there's some other solution the CFL can use that gets us both SMS relief and player tax relief?

Why doesn't the CFL just make any signing bonuses SMS-relievable on the 6GIR on a pro-rated basis?  Seems simple enough.  Why should the league care in what form we pay players?  Why should the US tax system dictate anything at all to how the CFL teams run their operation?

And it's not some imaginary problem: this issue right here right now, by itself, probably means the difference between being able to bring in a low-middling vet vs being stuck with the TC-cuts ELCs.

I'm not saying we cut Kenny in '25 FA... I'm saying it would be nice if we could take realistic account of him missing a lot of games, and protect ourselves from the SMS fallout.

I've always argued that early bonus money is still part of a players salary. It should be pro rated on a per game basis if an injury occurs. Why create what amounts to a penalty for teams trying to do what makes sense for a player and the team due to a tax loophole.

Otherwise, teams should just stop paying early money IMO.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 20, 2024, 03:37:12 PMI've always argued that early bonus money is still part of a players salary. It should be pro rated on a per game basis if an injury occurs. Why create what amounts to a penalty for teams trying to do what makes sense for a player and the team due to a tax loophole.

Otherwise, teams should just stop paying early money IMO.

If they don't want the risk, teams don't have to pay any bonuses. But but "playing it safe" with contracts, you run the risk of players choosing other team over you.

There are pros and cons to every way to structure a contract or salary cap option.

Quote from: Jesse on June 20, 2024, 05:15:19 PMIf they don't want the risk, teams don't have to pay any bonuses. But but "playing it safe" with contracts, you run the risk of players choosing other team over you.

There are pros and cons to every way to structure a contract or salary cap option.

That's not the point. What a player is paid is a finite number. It shouldn't matter when it's paid. Some bonus's are paid at year end due to achieving certain goals. That counts against the SMS.

It should be pro rated to a per game basis. As I said, the league should eliminate it and then all teams are on equal basis.  It's a two fold problem. The team loses a top starting player and then can't afford to add another player somewhat as a result.

Noting that you can't necessarily replace a Lawler but OTOH you might have another $100K-$120K to upgrade the roster elsewhere.

I don't remember exactly what his signing bonus was and we don't know if he'll be back early or be gone for longer.

Bonuses save money, but are not recoverable when the player is injured.  KL is going to have 100% of his bonuses count against the cap, regardless time on the 6 game.  So, while it helped the team, its now hurting the team.

Rolling dice...

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 20, 2024, 06:49:17 PMThat's not the point. What a player is paid is a finite number. It shouldn't matter when it's paid. Some bonus's are paid at year end due to achieving certain goals. That counts against the SMS.

It should be pro rated to a per game basis. As I said, the league should eliminate it and then all teams are on equal basis.  It's a two fold problem. The team loses a top starting player and then can't afford to add another player somewhat as a result.

Noting that you can't necessarily replace a Lawler but OTOH you might have another $100K-$120K to upgrade the roster elsewhere.

I don't remember exactly what his signing bonus was and we don't know if he'll be back early or be gone for longer.

Walters mentioned quite awhile ago, he doesn't like paying bonuses for achievements and was was trying to avoid including them in contracts.  The reason being it can alter the game plan if players are trying to pad numbers instead of win football games.  Makes sense.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 20, 2024, 06:49:17 PMThat's not the point. What a player is paid is a finite number. It shouldn't matter when it's paid. Some bonus's are paid at year end due to achieving certain goals. That counts against the SMS.

It should be pro rated to a per game basis. As I said, the league should eliminate it and then all teams are on equal basis.  It's a two fold problem. The team loses a top starting player and then can't afford to add another player somewhat as a result.

Noting that you can't necessarily replace a Lawler but OTOH you might have another $100K-$120K to upgrade the roster elsewhere.

I don't remember exactly what his signing bonus was and we don't know if he'll be back early or be gone for longer.

Never going to happen for exactly the reason you described. That IS the system working effectively. The SMS is designed to control costs and keep all player salary expenditures even. The league doesn't want teams to be pressured into major SMS expenses based on how many injuries they get. It's already expensive enough.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on June 20, 2024, 06:56:17 PMNever going to happen for exactly the reason you described. That IS the system working effectively. The SMS is designed to control costs and keep all player salary expenditures even. The league doesn't want teams to be pressured into major SMS expenses based on how many injuries they get. It's already expensive enough.

There is no way any team can determine how much player time will be lost to 6 game IR and therefore SMS.

So by definition it doesn't keep player expenditures even. That is not the system working within your explanation.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 20, 2024, 09:43:14 PMThere is no way any team can determine how much player time will be lost to 6 game IR and therefore SMS.

So by definition it doesn't keep player expenditures even. That is not the system working within your explanation.

Yes.  We have to be very careful that when we talk cost/pay that we qualify it as "SMS" or "out-of-pocket" (OOP; the "real world" cost).  The cap is supposed to keep OOP down so real owners spending real money don't go real broke.

Anything and everything in the "SMS" world is just make believe and artificial -- just arbitrary rules and regulations to attempt to affect the actually-important OOP costs.

WPG fans are in a unique position where our team makes the most $$ in the CFL, so to us OOP is meaningless and ignored: only SMS matters to us, and greatly hampers us.

So whenever we say "cost" or money amounts, we have to be clear we mean SMS or OOP.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 20, 2024, 06:56:09 PMWalters mentioned quite awhile ago, he doesn't like paying bonuses for achievements and was was trying to avoid including them in contracts.  The reason being it can alter the game plan if players are trying to pad numbers instead of win football games.  Makes sense.

Why not do like F1 does: fastest lap gets an extra point, but only if they are in the top 10.  The equivalent here would be: extra money for stats, but only if you win the game!  That would solve that problem!

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 20, 2024, 09:43:14 PMThere is no way any team can determine how much player time will be lost to 6 game IR and therefore SMS.

So by definition it doesn't keep player expenditures even. That is not the system working within your explanation.

Let me try again:

Players like bonuses because it's taxed differently (better). If there was no financial risk to providing them for teams, most (better off teams, for sure) would structure most contracts like that because it would be an advantage in signing and retaining talent. That would mean teams would pay the vast majority of their SMS prior to the season but all of that money may or may not be SMS exempt based on luck. This would inevitably lead to far greater swings of total salary expenses which is exactly what the SMS tries to limit.

A real world example:

Quarterback A gets paid $600,000 and $300,000 is a bonus.
Quarterback A tears ACL in week 1.

Now: Teams spend up to $266,667 additional dollars
You propose: Teams spend up to $566,667 additional dollars

Basically, for the salary cap to work, dollars paid to healthy players need to count.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on June 21, 2024, 08:15:01 PMLet me try again:

Players like bonuses because it's taxed differently (better). If there was no financial risk to providing them for teams, most (better off teams, for sure) would structure most contracts like that because it would be an advantage in signing and retaining talent. That would mean teams would pay the vast majority of their SMS prior to the season but all of that money may or may not be SMS exempt based on luck. This would inevitably lead to far greater swings of total salary expenses which is exactly what the SMS tries to limit.

A real world example:

Quarterback A gets paid $600,000 and $300,000 is a bonus.
Quarterback A tears ACL in week 1.

Now: Teams spend up to $266,667 additional dollars
You propose: Teams spend up to $566,667 additional dollars

Basically, for the salary cap to work, dollars paid to healthy players need to count.

Someone has already pointed out the difference between SMS and Operating expense spent. We've each made our points and we disagree with each others point of view.

I believe the current rule is a disadvantage and in some cases an extreme disadvantage. Your example would be the one you suggested as an extreme problem. In fact that could happen in TC.  I see no point in allowing that to impact a team's ability to roster a competitive team.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 21, 2024, 08:27:39 PMSomeone has already pointed out the difference between SMS and Operating expense spent. We've each made our points and we disagree with each others point of view.

I believe the current rule is a disadvantage and in some cases an extreme disadvantage. Your example would be the one you suggested as an extreme problem. In fact that could happen in TC.  I see no point in allowing that to impact a team's ability to roster a competitive team.

You can "disagree with the point of view" if you want what but what you a proposing without a doubt would make running teams more expensive. That's an undeniable truth and is exactly the opposite of what a functioning SMS is supposed to do. If you want a better product, increase the SMS overall, reduce the required nationals, etc.