Blue Bombers Forum

Do you think Kelly will ever play a live snap in the CFL again?  Not what you want to happen: What do you think will happen, based on the information you have at the moment, and knowing what you know about Kelly the man, the league, the modern zeitgeist, etc.

He will be playing again in the CFL.

He's got a 9-game suspension right? He'll play for sure. If he were just a role player, he would be banned. It's not fair, but that's just how life works.

In my opinion, the Argo's HR/management should take just as big a discipline. If it's clear that there was misconduct, then it should be easy to prove that Argos HR/management was aware of it.
What can they do to discipline an organization? Take away picks? Fines? They are getting sued by this lady too right?

I'm on the fence and think it's about even one way or the other. I haven't been keeping up with all the details aside from the accusations.

If there are charges laid, a trial and he's found guilty then he's gone. If there is no trail but a payout from him and / or the team then he's gone.

Have we heard specifically on either of those situations or will we if it's dealt with quietly?

Not sure the purpose of the league suggesting a minimum 9 games? What are they waiting for the to make a final conclusion?

Will he even be admissible into Canada?

He's got a a point to prove, last year's playoff is actually what I am referring to here.
Argos will keep him up to date with video calls and come Labor Day or just after he will be the healthiest starter in the CFL. Argos played games with the Murphy indefinite suspension by hiring him as consultant. He is currently the defacto GM, though Pinball has the title. No doubt they cut corners and find angles to play on this too.

I voted yes simply because of his value to his team. I just don't know when he'll play again.

How many strikes did Manzeil get, and did the league learn from his situation?

Its not like this is the first incident in his career, just the latest, and thinking this leopard will change his spots isn't the best bet, in my opinion.  Just having him on the roster means Argos hiring policies might toe the league line, but thier practices probably won't favour hiring diversity.

This is not a substance abuse issue, it is not a victimless incident, and it is a direct insult to the leagues diversity strategy/commitment.

I think it warrants a much less tolerant, much less forgiving reaction than Manzeil.

I think the 9 game was the minimum the league could do, and making the Argos start the season that far behind the 8 ball should make Pinball scour the QB ranks for a permanent replacement. 

Even if Kelly could come back on the field, I think all nine teams fans will boo him, the Argos fans especially because he hamstrung them cap wise, and will make them field a less competitive team for the first half the season at least.

Any other role on the team other than QB1 and he'd be gonzo. Still think he could be gone if Dukes or someone else plays well in his place.

Hopefully Argos management gets some punishment too. It appears Pinball and others may have knew something too.

Quote from: kkc60 on May 08, 2024, 03:50:41 PMAny other role on the team other than QB1 and he'd be gonzo. Still think he could be gone if Dukes or someone else plays well in his place.

Hopefully Argos management gets some punishment too. It appears Pinball and others may have knew something too.

I think the argos are praying one of these other dudes are able to win some games and Chad makes a quiet exit from the CFL. 

I thought at the beginning of all this that he would be out permanently, but he got the 9 games. He should consider himself fortunate. He's likely to play in Game 10. There would have to be some extenuating circumstances to prevent that. Too much talent and he's proven he can really make things happen on the field. Guys like that don't come around often in the CFL. 

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 08, 2024, 01:32:20 PMI'm on the fence and think it's about even one way or the other. I haven't been keeping up with all the details aside from the accusations.

If there are charges laid, a trial and he's found guilty then he's gone. If there is no trail but a payout from him and / or the team then he's gone.

Have we heard specifically on either of those situations or will we if it's dealt with quietly?

Not sure the purpose of the league suggesting a minimum 9 games? What are they waiting for the to make a final conclusion?

Will he even be admissible into Canada?

This is not a criminal matter it's civil, players that have broken criminal law have been given short suspensions and have been welcomed back with open arms.  Hello Kenny Lawler!

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on May 08, 2024, 08:14:59 PMThis is not a criminal matter it's civil, players that have broken criminal law have been given short suspensions and have been welcomed back with open arms.  Hello Kenny Lawler!

Ya, myriad of DUI cases, Duron "Clown" Carter smuggling weed through airports, etc.  The guys actually appearing in courts for actual crimes were let off way easier.

We all have to remember with Kelly there is no allegation of physical abuse, not even allegations of "uttering threats": no allegation of actual crimes.  Police are not involved.  There was no "violence".  What there was was "words" (albeit probably bad ones) and an allegation against the club for wrongful dismissal.

That's why 9 games is shocking.

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 08, 2024, 01:32:20 PMIf there is no trail but a payout from him and / or the team then he's gone.

These things almost always settle.  Perhaps at a lower amount.  If they let it go all the way in court then, based on what Ambrosie just did, Kelly will probably lose and have to pay the full amount plus costs.  There is basically no scenario where Kelly won't pay out something.

If for some reason Kelly wins the case and has to pay nothing (then the lady has to pay his costs), then Ambrosie will be in major doo-doo about this 9-game.  But that outcome is basically impossible now, unless the investigation was majorly botched.  We have to trust that the CFL found pretty good evidence the lady's allegations are true.

I at first thought it would have to be players in the locker room turning on Kelly (something most would hesitate at) and spilling the beans... but what if it's ex-players/coaches who signed with other teams in the off-season that did it?  They'd have no (or less) loyalty, and in fact can really help their season by hamstringing TOR.

For instance: Mace... whatever he has to say would carry a lot of weight.

There's also:
Barlow
Bede
Bladek
Robertson
Harris33 (!!!!)
Hendrix
Leake
Henoc
Oullette
Philips
Pickett
Tate

Any of these guys could have a beef and "help" get Kelly/TOR in trouble.

I'm not saying anyone is lying, but the team dynamic does make it harder for the truth to come out.  But not necessarily so for ex-team mates!!  Especially ones in the east...

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on May 08, 2024, 01:04:02 PMHe will be playing again in the CFL.

I agree with Goldie....too much money and talent tied up with this guy.   Do I like it?   Not really

but then there's this.....

https://leaderpost.com/sports/football/cfl/davis-chad-kelly-and-the-toronto-argonauts-are-in-very-deep-trouble

Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on May 09, 2024, 05:36:05 AMbut then there's this.....

https://leaderpost.com/sports/football/cfl/davis-chad-kelly-and-the-toronto-argonauts-are-in-very-deep-trouble

Awesome, you scooped Riderfans on a leaderpost article (as of right now)!!  Not much new in the article, though.  Riderfans thread does, however, have a link to another tweet from Argos re: abiding by the ruling, which is a bit newsworthy.

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 08, 2024, 01:32:20 PMI'm on the fence and think it's about even one way or the other. I haven't been keeping up with all the details aside from the accusations.

If there are charges laid, a trial and he's found guilty then he's gone. If there is no trail but a payout from him and / or the team then he's gone.

Have we heard specifically on either of those situations or will we if it's dealt with quietly?

Not sure the purpose of the league suggesting a minimum 9 games? What are they waiting for the to make a final conclusion?

Will he even be admissible into Canada?

Because there are conditions he must adhere to (mandatory therapy, etc). And none of this should affect his ability to enter Canada, he hasn't been arrested for a crime.

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 08, 2024, 01:32:20 PMNot sure the purpose of the league suggesting a minimum 9 games? What are they waiting for the to make a final conclusion?

They say minimum 9 games because Kelly still has to successfully complete the mandated counseling before that. I say successfully but I am not sure who judges that. Does he have to just show up and say all the right things or does someone have to decide he is actually a changed man?

Will Kelly subject himself to counselling just to keep his job in the CFL?  He's already banked his bonus, he might just walk away.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 09, 2024, 04:22:24 PMWill Kelly subject himself to counselling just to keep his job in the CFL?  He's already banked his bonus, he might just walk away.

He could still play for 6+ years.

300k isn't going to last him very long.

The world would be a better place if folks like this were not put in roles that the public / youth / etc. are involved with.  I would like to see him go elsewhere but doubt it.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 09, 2024, 04:22:24 PMWill Kelly subject himself to counselling just to keep his job in the CFL?  He's already banked his bonus, he might just walk away.

FYI, I made the poll so that votes can be changed  ;)  ;)  ;D  ;D

It's why I made the poll.  I think he'll walk.  There's an aspect of "saving face" here, also one of "power".  Kelly is clearly high on power.  It can be very hard for someone like that to submit to this.

The key comes down to if he wants to take the "retraining" and complete it successfully.  Manziel had problems with that.

I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, and the Argo's being sanctioned.  Pinball said he's responsible for his teams actions, he's the boss.  Does he get retraining too?

https://x.com/CFL_PR/status/1822332555632214129

CFL has received the assessment and is now reviewing it to determine reinstatement.

Not that I really care if he ever plays again but I wonder how long the assessment will take. This is a little like a suspension appeal that can take weeks to resolve ( Lemon for example ).

From a PR point of view for the CFL, IMO he should be banned from playing. Not everyone will agree.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GUoz4m1WIAEFzB4?format=jpg&name=900x900)

The fact he has been in Toronto all year, and hasn't he been practicing with the team recently, it would be interesting if they extended his ban.

I guess it all comes down to how well he can convince the mediator that he has reformed.

Personally I'm hoping he is banned as I never have like his persona.....he is however a talented QB and the fact that the Argos are 5-4 without him speaks volumes about the team.   They have a great defence that takes the ball away and  Janarian Grant as the "X" factor on STs.    With Kelly back at QB, the Argos will be an even better team down the stretch.   

He definitely gives off a weird jibe, has from Day 1. If he has received his councilling and treatment, is remorseful for his wrong doings, and convinces the experts he's good to go, i guess he gets a second chance, everybody should.

I expect Kelly to be reinstated in fairly short order.

He's still on the roster... but no announcement from the league... with this week being a bye, have they delayed the announcement until next week?

Quote from: theaardvark on August 15, 2024, 06:50:44 PMHe's still on the roster... but no announcement from the league... with this week being a bye, have they delayed the announcement until next week?

From Farhan:

Chad Kelly is expected to meet with @CFL commissioner Randy Ambrose Friday morning. Following that I don't think it will be long before we hear the next steps. #Argos next practice is on Sunday.

It's a short week for the Argos who play again on the 22nd. If Kelly gets approval he might be allowed to practice but I can't see him starting in that short a time frame.

If he gets approved tomorrow, I think he will start on the 22nd.

Quote from: Blue In BC on August 15, 2024, 07:52:47 PMIt's a short week for the Argos who play again on the 22nd. If Kelly gets approval he might be allowed to practice but I can't see him starting in that short a time frame.

Why not?? We ve seen dukes and arbuckle in action and they are hopeless. Even if he goes with a short playbook, he starts. Remember the grey cup when he came off the bench cold and beat us?? Same thing here

Quote from: Blue In BC on August 15, 2024, 07:52:47 PMIt's a short week for the Argos who play again on the 22nd. If Kelly gets approval he might be allowed to practice but I can't see him starting in that short a time frame.

Quote from: bomb squad on August 15, 2024, 08:36:04 PMIf he gets approved tomorrow, I think he will start on the 22nd.

Ya, if he's able, Kelly will start the very next game.  Proof?  Rourke who has been out of the CFL 1.5 years is starting just a couple of days after signing!  The top-shelf QBs can just fly in and play the next day.  Besides, it's a sure thing Kelly has been following along with the playbook and film, etc.

@TSNDaveNaylor
Chad Kelly's meeting with @CFL commissioner Randy Ambrosie Friday did not produce a resolution to his seeking reinstatement. The league seeks to impose a "last chance agreement" as a condition of Kelly's return which his representative insists deprives him of rights under the CBA. Stay tuned.#CFL

From naylor:

Chad Kelly's meeting with @CFL commissioner Randy Ambrosie Friday did not produce a resolution to his seeking reinstatement. The league seeks to impose a "last chance agreement" as a condition of Kelly's return which his representative insists deprives him of rights under the CBA. Stay tuned.#CFL 

Wooooooooooooooow.

This is pretty shocking. Do we think Kelly didn't meet some conditions or that the CFL is expecting backlash from reinstating him so are adding something else to the conditions?

Quote from: Jesse on August 16, 2024, 10:16:11 PMWooooooooooooooow.

This is pretty shocking. Do we think Kelly didn't meet some conditions or that the CFL is expecting backlash from reinstating him so are adding something else to the conditions?

Makes you wonder...was his arrogance in the whole thing sending off warning bells ??

Is this last chance thing a blindside to Kelly and his lawyers? 

Quote from: The Zipp on August 16, 2024, 10:19:02 PMMakes you wonder...was his arrogance in the whole thing sending off warning bells ??

Is this last chance thing a blindside to Kelly and his lawyers? 

I did hear (from Naylor maybe?) that they'd be looking at Kelly's behaviour during this whole period, which would include his social media. And he's said a few things that had to be immediately deleted.

Quote from: The Zipp on August 16, 2024, 10:19:02 PMMakes you wonder...was his arrogance in the whole thing sending off warning bells ??

Is this last chance thing a blindside to Kelly and his lawyers? 

I think more of a lifeline than a blindside.

Sounds like his "rehab" didn't go to plan.

Manzeil 2.0

Not going to end well, VA should be shopping for apartments in Toronto.

Quote from: theaardvark on August 16, 2024, 10:24:29 PMI think more of a lifeline than a blindside.

Sounds like his "rehab" didn't go to plan.

Manzeil 2.0

Not going to end well, VA should be shopping for apartments in Toronto.

Sask might be in the market next year too

When this Kelly thing first went down I looked into his history a bit. Without getting into specifics he has a history of somewhat bizarre behaviour that has lead to a lot of clubs, here and down South, passing on him even though he clearly has some athletic QB attributes. The league may be considering him more of a liability than they're willing to accept.

Yup, Naylor says that the league added some expectations to Kelly that he would have to adhere to moving forward, but his representatives claim that they are essentially removing his player rights by doing this. All at a stand still.

Not being a union guy (That was my Dad), I had to look it up...

Last chance agreement - a formal, written understanding between an employer and employee, providing a final opportunity for the employee to correct their behavior and retain their job. By outlining specific terms and consequences, this agreement helps to ensure accountability and provides a clear path forward for both parties.

I'm guessing that Kelly doesn't want the league to be able to simply fire him if he doesn't comply with their terms. We don't know what the terms or consequences are in the 'agreement' that wasn't agreed on. Could be it voids his contract, which he certainly wouldn't sign. 

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 16, 2024, 11:21:19 PMNot being a union guy (That was my Dad), I had to look it up...

Last chance agreement - a formal, written understanding between an employer and employee, providing a final opportunity for the employee to correct their behavior and retain their job. By outlining specific terms and consequences, this agreement helps to ensure accountability and provides a clear path forward for both parties.

I'm guessing that Kelly doesn't want the league to be able to simply fire him if he doesn't comply with their terms. We don't know what the terms or consequences are in the 'agreement' that wasn't agreed on. Could be it voids his contract, which he certainly wouldn't sign.

Didn't recognize the term, thanks for looking that up.

I guess it would supersede the CBA/CFLPA protections, which is why he doesn't want to agree to it.

The CFL should just cut the string and toss him. It's not good for the league or the Argos.

No organization is going to want a player that will have this hanging over his head. You can't build on that. There is obviously something that concerns the league that required them to not accept his immediate return.

I don't need to know what that is and am good with what they intend to impose. Whether Kelly is willing to accept we'll see.

Some more details:

Naylor further expanded on the situation during Friday's edition of OverDrive.
"The meeting between Chad Kelly and the commissioner did in fact happen today. What I believe is the league has tried to impose some further conditions on Chad Kelly. So that, yes, you could be reinstated, but these are the conditions under which you are going to be reinstated. And I don't know that the Argos or Chad Kelly's representatives are on board with that. Specifically one that is known as a "last chance" agreement. Which I believe is sort of a condition that would say 'If we decide that you do anything that runs afoul of our expectations of you, we get rid of you.'"
"Now that, and the pushback is coming saying well that's not the way player discipline works under the collective agreement... basically taking away Chad Kelly's rights as a CFL player under the union if you forced him to accept a last chance agreement. I think there's some back and forth going on this, I think this is going to continue into perhaps the next few hours and days. I think the Argos are scheduled to practice on Sunday. There's some loggerheads on this one. My expectation was there was going to be a path for Chad Kelly to return to the Argonauts coming off their bye. But I think what's always been understood is that there might be some conditions placed on him, and the question is whether those conditions are going to be palatable to Kelly and the Argos and to at least one them, it is not at this time."
The league announced upon suspending Kelly prior to the season that the 2023 Most Outstanding Player must satisfactorily complete mandated counselling sessions and pass an assessment by an independent expert to return following an investigation into a lawsuit filed by the team's former strength and conditioning coach.
The lawsuit alleged that Kelly made repeated unwanted romantic advances that escalated into threatening language. The lawsuit was eventually settled through mediation.
"Mr. Kelly's suspension is the direct result of his behaviour," Ambrosie said at the time. "The addition of mandatory counselling focuses on his need for self-reflection and understanding of his actions. He must take full advantage of this."
Kelly was also suspended a minimum of nine regular-season games and two pre-season games as part of the ban.
A native of Buffalo and the nephew of Pro Football Hall of Fame QB Jim Kelly, the 30-year-old Kelly signed a three-year, $1.865 million extension with the Argos last fall to make him the highest-paid player in the league.
In 2023, the Ole Miss product threw for 4,123 yards on 270-for-394 passing with 23 touchdowns to earn the league's top individual prize.
After a 16-2 regular season, the defending Grey Cup champion Argos fell, 38-17, in the Eastern Final to eventual champions, the Montreal Alouettes.
The Argonauts have gone 5-4 without Kelly this season, with Cameron Dukes and Nick Arbuckle both seeing starts. Toronto will host the Saskatchewan Roughriders next Thursday following their bye.

I bet this was the plan by Ambrosie all along.  Springing it at the last minute puts pressure on Kelly & Argos to agree just to get him back on the field.  It's a smart move by the league.  Kelly will sign it.

If I'm Argos, I am assigning a babysitter to be with Kelly at all times and I am making sure he is never within 100Y of any female employee, and certainly never alone with one.  If they do that then he cannot do anything untoward, and also can't get hit with a fake accusation.  Just take all the possibilities away and the problem goes away.  Maybe have the babysitter have a go-pro on at all times, too.  Then there can never be any he-said/she-said: it'll all be on film.

I wonder if Kelly is on the spectrum, maybe even rather far along it.  He always seems a bit "off" in interviews and just standing around the sidelines.  Autistic people can have major problems understanding social mores and picking up on cues.  What seems easy for us is very hard for them.  If this is even remotely a possibility they should get official diagnoses as that would go a long way to ameliorating his tarnished rep.  (I say this as someone who has in-laws just like this so I experience it firsthand.)

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 17, 2024, 12:28:53 AMI bet this was the plan by Ambrosie all along.  Springing it at the last minute puts pressure on Kelly & Argos to agree just to get him back on the field.  It's a smart move by the league.  Kelly will sign it.

If I'm Argos, I am assigning a babysitter to be with Kelly at all times and I am making sure he is never within 100Y of any female employee, and certainly never alone with one.  If they do that then he cannot do anything untoward, and also can't get hit with a fake accusation.  Just take all the possibilities away and the problem goes away.  Maybe have the babysitter have a go-pro on at all times, too.  Then there can never be any he-said/she-said: it'll all be on film.

I wonder if Kelly is on the spectrum, maybe even rather far along it.  He always seems a bit "off" in interviews and just standing around the sidelines.  Autistic people can have major problems understanding social mores and picking up on cues.  What seems easy for us is very hard for them.  If this is even remotely a possibility they should get official diagnoses as that would go a long way to ameliorating his tarnished rep.  (I say this as someone who has in-laws just like this so I experience it firsthand.)

If I'm a team, and I have to assign a baby-sitter to a player, I'm just cutting them.

Wow! Lots of holier than thou on this board?

Quote from: DM83 on August 17, 2024, 02:48:49 AMWow! Lots of holier than thou on this board?

Great contribution to the thread.... nothing changes

I can see him coming back but I would not want him on my club

Thanks for the good discussion and info guys

Quote from: DM83 on August 17, 2024, 02:48:49 AMWow! Lots of holier than thou on this board?

In this day and age players or anyone have no excuse for behaviour like this.  It's not about "holier than thou".  It's about having some respect for women in Kelly's case.  He SHOULD have known better so if he he is removed from the league it would be well deserved. 

Quote from: Jesse on August 17, 2024, 02:12:12 AMIf I'm a team, and I have to assign a baby-sitter to a player, I'm just cutting them.

They won all but 1 meaningful game with Kelly in '23.  They are close to be .500 this season without him.

If the cost of Kelly winning anywhere close to '23 is some minimum wage intern hovering over him with a camera all day, then Pinball pays that cost.

It sounds silly and ridiculous, but Kelly is silly and ridiculous, so it's fitting.  And it would work.

Would you leave Kelly alone in a room with a pretty female staff member??  Or your daughter?

And I'm still not even saying he's guilty or a creep (though probably is a creep): what I'm saying is any perception of impropriety or even fake accusations would be enough to end his career, and the Argos current and subsequent seasons.

TOR really has no choice.

Man, too many emotional thinkers here, and ones who lack empathy (as in the ability to put themselves in another person or teams' shoes).  Think!  Don't Feel!

Think like a business man and problem solver (Pinball).  You have a clear problem (need a winning QB).  A clear solution (only solution!) (Kelly).  There are costs (optics, bad PR).  Risks (recidivism, lies).  And the only benefit that matters to a CFL GM: WINNING.

So we have these options on the table on this page in the thread:
1. Cut Kelly
2. Babysit Kelly
3. ??

#1 and you keep going ~ .500.  Won't win the EDF.
#2 and you get .600-.900.  Might win the EDF.
#3... I'm open to better options, and I'm sure Pinball is too.

Oh ya, also, 2 words: sunk cost.  Not only the bonus is toast and counts against the SMS, but if you wanted to fire him, should have done it in week 1.  In for 11 weeks, in for a pound.  And SMS woes wouldn't give you enough to trade for any other decent GC-caliber QB.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 17, 2024, 09:36:31 AMThey won all but 1 meaningful game with Kelly in '23.  They are close to be .500 this season without him.

If the cost of Kelly winning anywhere close to '23 is some minimum wage intern hovering over him with a camera all day, then Pinball pays that cost.

It sounds silly and ridiculous, but Kelly is silly and ridiculous, so it's fitting.  And it would work.

Would you leave Kelly alone in a room with a pretty female staff member??  Or your daughter?

And I'm still not even saying he's guilty or a creep (though probably is a creep): what I'm saying is any perception of impropriety or even fake accusations would be enough to end his career, and the Argos current and subsequent seasons.

TOR really has no choice.

Again, if I have to ask that question, I cut the player.

There should have been enough time to conduct an investigation into the whole thing and if the accusations were false that would have been discovered (much like that punter kid that lost his nfl job cause someone lied about him)

Them being true should be enough for Kelly to be dismissed OR a reasonable "treatment" plan which it sounds like may have not been completed to the degree needed.

Time to move on - no babysitters no isolation from "pretty" girls (what that even means and defined is ridiculous).  There are things in life bigger than wins and losses in a game - this is one of them, Kelly and his sordid past need to not be a part of this incredible institution that is the CFL. Teams lose players to injury all the time and figure it out - this is no different.

Quote from: DM83 on August 17, 2024, 02:48:49 AMWow! Lots of holier than thou on this board?

Just the opposite I think. The league suspended him for at least 9 games. An out of court settlement happened. He failed his evaluation to show at least some cause to take additional action.

He had a history of misconduct in the NFL.

Do we need more proof that he has issues that cannot be accepted?

Quote from: Blue In BC on August 17, 2024, 04:38:07 PMJust the opposite I think. The league suspended him for at least 9 games. An out of court settlement happened. He failed his evaluation to show at least some cause to take additional action.

He had a history of misconduct in the NFL.

Do we need more proof that he has issues that cannot be accepted?

No we do not...send him packing and show all existing fans, CFL employees and players/coaches that we expect and demand a respectful workplace.  End of story

Just not a fan of Kelly as a leader.....can he QB?  No question about his abilities but at what cost do you take him on?  I'm quite disillusioned with the Argos organization, Pinball and Kelly.    We have superior role models like Zach, Nathan, Trevor, Cody and Jeremiah.....Kelly is like a fly in the ointment!   
There is something off when it comes to Kelly's character both on and off the field....is he autistic?  That would explain a lot however the end results don't change what happened here....and will it continue should he be reinstated?

I think Kelly needs to do a live interview. He's losing in the court of public opinion and that's going sink him.

Quote from: bomb squad on August 17, 2024, 06:16:29 PMI think Kelly needs to do a live interview. He's losing in the court of public opinion and that's going sink him.

Kelly does a live interview it will seal the deal, he is one creepy weird dude !!!

Quote from: dd on August 17, 2024, 07:21:28 PMKelly does a live interview it will seal the deal, he is one creepy weird dude !!!

I saw an interview with him about a year ago and he came off quite balanced.  I'll see if I can find a link.

From Pinball's standpoint, he can't really cut Kelly, regardless the decision from the league.

He can't hang that $SMS load on the team, cutting him means having to pay him...

If the league suspends him permanently, Pinball is off the hook.

Of they ban him, he's gone.  If they don't, Pinball is forced to play him.

Without going into anything that Kelly has done, Here's how I can see the meetings...

CFLHO: Mr Kelly you have to do A B & C to be re-instated. 
Kelly: Ok
Kelly goes and does what he's been told to do then comes back. 

CFLHO: Good morning Mr Kelly. Sign this and you will be re-instated.
Kelly hands it to his handler.
Handler: What are these new clauses that eliminate Mr Kelly's CFLPA rights?
CFLHO: Don't worry about them, just sign. 
Handler to Kelly: Understand that signing this means you are no longer protected by the CFL CBA.
Kelly: What does that mean?
Handler: Anything they want it to.
Kelly: Should I sign it?
Handler: I wouldn't. 

It's a greasy negotiation tactic. It's like agreeing to buy or sell a house then adding additional clauses at signing time to change the terms of the agreement.  

Not greasy at all. The league does not want to be embarrassed again, that's what the clause is about. One more "mistake" and he can be gone. The other option (not signing) is another dragged out scandal like we've been talking about for 8 months.  Kelly is lucky he got this far. He should sign and just behave. Simplest solution.

Quote from: theaardvark on August 17, 2024, 08:31:37 PMFrom Pinball's standpoint, he can't really cut Kelly, regardless the decision from the league.

He can't hang that $SMS load on the team, cutting him means having to pay him...

If the league suspends him permanently, Pinball is off the hook.

Of they ban him, he's gone.  If they don't, Pinball is forced to play him.

Kelly is not a long time veteran. He can be cut at any time. Argos are already on the hook for the advance payment regardless of the outcome.

If the league bans him there might be some legal grounds to sue Kelly for the return of that payment. Doing it, proving it and winning that action could be very difficult once he leaves the country.

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 17, 2024, 08:42:59 PMWithout going into anything that Kelly has done, Here's how I can see the meetings...

CFLHO: Mr Kelly you have to do A B & C to be re-instated.
Kelly: Ok
Kelly goes and does what he's been told to do then comes back.

CFLHO: Good morning Mr Kelly. Sign this and you will be re-instated.
Kelly hands it to his handler.
Handler: What are these new clauses that eliminate Mr Kelly's CFLPA rights?
CFLHO: Don't worry about them, just sign.
Handler to Kelly: Understand that signing this means you are no longer protected by the CFL CBA.
Kelly: What does that mean?
Handler: Anything they want it to.
Kelly: Should I sign it?
Handler: I wouldn't.

It's a greasy negotiation tactic. It's like agreeing to buy or sell a house then adding additional clauses at signing time to change the terms of the agreement. 

You are correct - you weren't in the room so you are guessing and making inferences that may be wrong.  Maybe Chad didn't fully do what he was supposed to and as an olive branch offered him this option and he is refusing to acknowledge he didn't meet criteria.  We just don't know...you know my thoughts - cut him loose and stop tarnishing the league.  "Protect the Shield" as they say for the NFL.

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 17, 2024, 08:42:59 PMWithout going into anything that Kelly has done, Here's how I can see the meetings...

CFLHO: Mr Kelly you have to do A B & C to be re-instated.
Kelly: Ok
Kelly goes and does what he's been told to do then comes back.

CFLHO: Good morning Mr Kelly. Sign this and you will be re-instated.
Kelly hands it to his handler.
Handler: What are these new clauses that eliminate Mr Kelly's CFLPA rights?
CFLHO: Don't worry about them, just sign.
Handler to Kelly: Understand that signing this means you are no longer protected by the CFL CBA.
Kelly: What does that mean?
Handler: Anything they want it to.
Kelly: Should I sign it?
Handler: I wouldn't.

It's a greasy negotiation tactic. It's like agreeing to buy or sell a house then adding additional clauses at signing time to change the terms of the agreement. 

Except they're not negotiating. They're are listing the conditions in which they'll allow him to play. He doesn't have to sign and no one other than himself got him into this situation.

Quote from: Jesse on August 17, 2024, 09:51:18 PMExcept they're not negotiating. They're are listing the conditions in which they'll allow him to play. He doesn't have to sign and no one other than himself got him into this situation.

Then they should have told him about the new rules before the meeting. 

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 18, 2024, 12:03:53 AMThen they should have told him about the new rules before the meeting.

you are as amazing as always. ::)

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 18, 2024, 12:03:53 AMThen they should have told him about the new rules before the meeting.

It only became necessary and relevant once he completed his suspension and followed the process correctly.

Quote from: The Zipp on August 17, 2024, 05:11:27 PMNo we do not...send him packing and show all existing fans, CFL employees and players/coaches that we expect and demand a respectful workplace.  End of story

You obviously don't know most company HR policies. For certain he would get reprimanded and maybe given the boot if across the line badly, but if he completes his punishment successfully, usually you can keep your job. Just maybe have to steer clear of the person you had issues with or continue ongoing counselling to convince HR you are "cured"! It is quite surprising how much nonsense idiots can get away with often as HR are pushovers normally. Afraid of lawsuits and the like.

I've worked with many loose cannons in the past. Their behaviour ALWAYS catches up to them eventually if they don't reform or recognize their idiocy....Keep on being an a-hole and you garner no friends or sympathy from anyone at your workplace. I actually told a few off in my time as total A-HOLES!! ;)  GOOD RIDDANCE! :) NOBODY ever misses them no matter what their talents were if they only disrupt office morale.

Quote from: The Zipp on August 17, 2024, 03:13:17 PMTime to move on - no babysitters no isolation from "pretty" girls (what that even means and defined is ridiculous).

You didn't look up the picture of the Argos trainer then, did you?  You can "PC" all you want, but biology is still biology.  If the trainer had looked like Buzz or Gainer, this thread would never have existed.

It's a simple case of a (perceived?) alpha male going after the best-looking female.  I bet Kelly was used to getting what he wants all through college: hence his major issues now in life when he finds someone who says "no".  Don't blame me: I'm just (apparently) the messenger.

Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on August 17, 2024, 05:15:43 PMJust not a fan of Kelly as a leader.....can he QB?  No question about his abilities but at what cost do you take him on?  I'm quite disillusioned with the Argos organization, Pinball and Kelly.    We have superior role models like Zach, Nathan, Trevor, Cody and Jeremiah.....Kelly is like a fly in the ointment!   
There is something off when it comes to Kelly's character both on and off the field....is he autistic?  That would explain a lot however the end results don't change what happened here....and will it continue should he be reinstated?

I'm not looking at football players to be my "role models"! Just like celebrities or others such as politicians. I gave up on that horse MANY DECADES AGO! ;) True role models are from REAL heroes such as soldiers or your parents or friends/siblings or a mentor at your job or your good coaches in amateur sports growing up. Sorry,  I WILL NEVER get hero worship of ANY Sports star as they are just people too. Admiration OK for their talents, but not that I WILL EVER expect them to be role models unless they want to.

Does it help it they are upstanding citizens? Of course it does both for the team and community they play in, but telling me they need to be a Mahatma Ghandi is a bit ridiculous for any sports player! :)

Quote from: Blue In BC on August 17, 2024, 04:38:07 PMJust the opposite I think. The league suspended him for at least 9 games. An out of court settlement happened. He failed his evaluation

We have no word or proof he failed anything.  From all we know he did everything the league wanted and passed with all A+'s.

Just like the command center guidelines fiasco, the league could solve a whole ton of these problems by just giving us more info!!  More transparency!

Quote from: theaardvark on August 17, 2024, 08:31:37 PMIf the league suspends him permanently, Pinball is off the hook.

That's an interesting point.  He won't regain SMS money already paid to Kelly (bonus + salary to date), right??

But might he be forgiven the remainder of his salary just as if Kelly had been on 6GIR all season?

If SMS issues are contingent on how Kelly is handled by the league, Pinball might be waiting for the league to drop the axe.  Why would Pinball cut him if the SMS implications are way worse?

You know who's loving all of this?  Maciocia and Maas... sitting back in their recliners smoking cigars and laughing all the way to the GC.

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 17, 2024, 08:42:59 PMKelly: What does that mean?
Handler: Anything they want it to.
Kelly: Should I sign it?
Handler: I wouldn't.

It's a greasy negotiation tactic. It's like agreeing to buy or sell a house then adding additional clauses at signing time to change the terms of the agreement. 

TB is 100% right.  It's greaseball.  What would have been correct here would be to tell Kelly on day one of the suspension that he had to pass all of these classes PLUS sign a Last Chance contract.

They could have easily done that on day one, but didn't.

It's almost like they are desperately trying to oust Kelly and may not let him back even if he jumps through every hoop and signs every lopsided last-minute contract.  Weird, really.  It's almost like it's personal, or MLSE/TOR has made Ambrosie their sworn enemy.  It's like some bad TV drama.

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 18, 2024, 12:03:53 AMThen they should have told him about the new rules before the meeting.

Bingo.

IF Kelly has any scruples and maturity, he comes back and ROARS to the GC making up for the troubles & farces he has done in the past year for his teammates, for the Argos, for the Argo fans and the CFL in general. FOR HIS FAMILY And loved ones too! GROW UP ALREADY! Very sick and tired of little boys in their 20's pretending they are men!

He does have some talents and stuffing those cigars into Machoka's and Mass's faces would be nice to see as well!! :) I'm no fan of Kelly, but he has a real chance to redeem himself as a person and player if he plays his cards right TRUTHFULLY AND HUMBLY instead of continuing to be a douche! ;) :D

Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 18, 2024, 05:34:41 AMIF Kelly has any scruples and maturity, he comes back and ROARS to the GC making up for the troubles & farces he has done in the past year for his teammates, for the Argos, for the Argo fans and the CFL in general. FOR HIS FAMILY And loved ones too! GROW UP ALREADY! Very sick and tired of little boys in their 20's pretending they are men!

100%.  That's the flipside of all of this that many are ignoring.  It could be the perfect "redemption story" and "troubled boy makes good, finds Jesus".  It would be a great warm fuzzy TSN segment in a future year.  Doesn't everybody love the "guy gets a second chance and does good" tale?  They could get the trainer to come on and publicly forgive him (LOL).

Kelly could do all of that, should they let him back in.  Destroying MTL in a 45-7 EDF would be epic.

However, you'd have to be very brave to put money on this outcome... Kelly is clearly a bit(!) messed up.  I won't be betting!

Isn't the Last Chance contract proof that Kelly successfully completed his "sensitivity training"?  If he didn't pass and they still wanted him out, they could just say he didn't pass and be done with it.  There would be no need for a new Last Chance roadblock.

Something is fishy and I'm not sure everyone is operating in good faith.

yes

Now he can go beat the Riders on Thursday.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 18, 2024, 06:38:38 AMIsn't the Last Chance contract proof that Kelly successfully completed his "sensitivity training"?  If he didn't pass and they still wanted him out, they could just say he didn't pass and be done with it.  There would be no need for a new Last Chance roadblock.

Something is fishy and I'm not sure everyone is operating in good faith.

Disagree.

He is back.  He has a statement out as do the Argos. 

Assume he will play this week


From 3rd down:


The CFL has reinstated Toronto Argonauts quarterback Chad Kelly on a last chance agreement provided he continues to meet unspecified ongoing conditions.

Commissioner Randy Ambrosie suspended Kelly on Tuesday, May 7 for a minimum nine games based on findings from a thorough third-party investigation into allegations made against him. During his suspension, he was required to attend psychological assessments and mandatory counselling sessions conducted by an independent expert in the gender-based violence field.

"I am sorry for my actions and the impact it has had on many people personally, the Toronto Argonauts and the CFL," Kelly said in a statement.

"I recognize this is just one step in the process of bettering myself, but it is an important one, and I am committed to doing what is needed to be a better teammate, colleague and person. With that commitment in mind, I have accepted the league's conditions of reinstatement, including its last chance agreement."

Kelly served the ninth game of his suspension on Friday, August 9. The league office received his final assessment on Saturday, August 10 and immediately completed a thorough review process. The CFL sought guidance from an expert who specializes in gender-based violence, met with the psychologist and counsellor who worked with Kelly. He then took part in an in-person discussion with Ambrosie.

"The Argos and MLSE take this issue extremely seriously, in keeping with our unwavering commitment to maintaining a work environment where individuals are treated with respect and dignity and that is free from discrimination and harassment," MLSE president and CEO Keith Pelley said in a statement.

"The organization will implement a comprehensive education program, focused on this issue, to ensure all team members and staff are properly equipped with the awareness and skills to protect against this issue occurring in the future."

According to the league, ongoing mandatory conditions surrounding Kelly's reinstatement reflect the need for him to demonstrate a continued commitment to upholding league standards. Those conditions are confidential and will not be disclosed by the CFL.

"This is an important step for Chad who has taken full accountability for his actions and represents just the beginning of his ongoing commitment to bettering himself and learning from this experience," general manager Michael 'Pinball' Clemons said in a statement. "There continues to be much work to do to strengthen our team culture and we are all committed with Chad's return, to work on this together, as a team."

In February, a former team employee filed a lawsuit with the Ontario Superior Court alleging Kelly "repeatedly sought to initiate romantic connections" with her throughout the 2022 and 2023 seasons. She claimed Kelly escalated his harassment last November when he publicly accused her of being romantically involved with another player, which sparked a verbal altercation, an incident she alleged led to the team not renewing her contract.

Kelly filed his defence in the lawsuit and denied making "any romantic or sexual overtures" towards the plaintiff, including workplace sexual harassment. He called the claims "spurious" and accused the plaintiff of filing the lawsuit merely to draw media attention to what was "otherwise a very routine termination situation."

In the team's defence file, the Argonauts claimed "no knowledge" of any behaviour by Kelly that violated the league's gender-based violence policy or breached the Ontario Human Rights Code. The team claimed its conduct with the plaintiff was "all times fair, reasonable, lawful and undertaken in good faith."

The lawsuit was settled in June to the satisfaction of all parties and none of the allegations against Kelly or the Argonauts were ever tested in court. However, an 87-page report commissioned by the CFL from Saskatchewan-based firm Buckingham Security Services Ltd. corroborated three of six claims made against the quarterback, including "sexual harassment as defined by the Ontario Occupational Health and Safety Act."

Kelly signed with the Argos for the 2022 season and came off the bench to lead the team to victory in the 109th Grey Cup. He took over the starting job last year and posted a 15-1 win-loss record while throwing for 4,123 yards with 23 touchdowns and 12 interceptions plus carrying the ball 41 times for 248 yards and eight touchdowns en route to being named the league's Most Outstanding Player.

The 30-year-old last played on November 11, 2023 — the same week several key allegations were claimed to have taken place. Kelly threw four interceptions and fumbled once in a stunning upset loss to the Montreal Alouettes in the East Final and later claimed he suffered a concussion during the game.

The University of Mississippi product has been away from the team since his attendance at rookie camp in May drew criticism from multiple female employees in the CFL. Kelly elected not to appeal his suspension after withdrawing himself from training camp.

Backups Cameron Dukes and Nick Arbuckle shared QB duties through the first half of the season, helping guide the Argos to a 5-4 record. Kelly rejoined the team for practice on Sunday, August 18. The Argonauts return to game action on Thursday, August 22 when Toronto hosts the Saskatchewan Roughriders.

In theory people can change bad actions. IMO most don't. Either way, he wouldn't be a player I'd want on our roster. Manziel comes to mind. A famous American politician also comes to mind. This was not a singular incident, it was an on going multiple situation over time.

I'd suggest the Argos have an apple and a road map prepared for the most likely outcome. This is bad PR for the CFL.

Would I have Kelly on my team? No.
Do I condone what Kelly did? No.
Do I think that it's a greasy negotiation tactic to drop additional restrictions during the meeting instead of before? Yes.

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 18, 2024, 02:56:19 PMWould I have Kelly on my team? No.
Do I condone what Kelly did? No.
Do I think that it's a greasy negotiation tactic to drop additional restrictions during the meeting instead of before? Yes.

We don't know that. We're not talking about the Pope here.

If you had a meeting with him, he had done his counseling but you still got the feeling he was just playing along, what would you do? You would want the last chance clause.

Kelly being reinstated seems fair, hes done what they asked. My issue remains with the Argo mgmt.At every turn they've said and done what they could to support Kelly, At no time have I felt they showed compassion ti the victim. If I was a female still working in that enviroment I doubt I'd be happy

Quote from: Waffler on August 18, 2024, 03:07:13 PMIf you had a meeting with him, he had done his counseling but you still got the feeling he was just playing along, what would you do? You would want the last chance clause.

The people saying that it was a "greasy" tactic by the CFL (even though we have no evidence that Kelly did not have prior knowledge of the last chance deal), are the exact same people who were defending Kelly in the first place (because we didn't have evidence of his misdeeds).

So when they need the evidence in one case, but do not need evidence in the second case, I think we can just go ahead and assume they're not really having this discussion in good faith.

It comes down to credibility. If someone has a single DUI and does time in re-hab and promises to not do it again, he may have some. OTOH how many times did he not get caught.

If he was charged and convicted multiple times, should he have his license revoked and / or for how long? There is a long history of those convicted of that and being caught DUI again driving without either a license or insurance.

Kelly has an extensive history of inappropriate activity. How many more times did it happen that someone didn't come forward.

This doesn't just wash away with some re-hab time. Just look at some of the rich and powerful celebrities that continue to have multiple incidence of repeating previous issues.

Is it possible Kelly learned something this time around? It's possible. We'll see.

Quote from: Waffler on August 18, 2024, 03:07:13 PMIf you had a meeting with him, he had done his counseling but you still got the feeling he was just playing along, what would you do? You would want the last chance clause.

I would have told him that the last chance clause would be part of reinstating him when they suspended him.

Quote from: Blue In BC on August 18, 2024, 03:00:48 PMWe don't know that. We're not talking about the Pope here.

Are you saying it's ok to use greasy tactics as long as it's not the pope?

Quote from: Jesse on August 18, 2024, 03:17:15 PMThe people saying that it was a "greasy" tactic by the CFL (even though we have no evidence that Kelly did not have prior knowledge of the last chance deal), are the exact same people who were defending Kelly in the first place (because we didn't have evidence of his misdeeds).

So when they need the evidence in one case, but do not need evidence in the second case, I think we can just go ahead and assume they're not really having this discussion in good faith.

If Kelly had prior knowledge, there would be no reason for him not to sign it right away.

BTW: I don't think making people take mandated courses changes their behavior. One has to want to change in the first place.

Quote from: TBURGESS on August 18, 2024, 03:28:32 PMI would have told him that the last chance clause would be part of reinstating him when they suspended him. Are you saying it's ok to use greasy tactics as long as it's not the pope?If Kelly had prior knowledge, there would be no reason for him not to sign it right away.

BTW: I don't think making people take mandated courses changes their behavior. One has to want to change in the first place.

I'm saying I don't think it was a greasy situation. Kelly was suspended for a minimum nine games. He would have known it was going to take a lot to get an entirely clean slate. He knew there was going to be a review and questions asked.

I do agree that people that take mandated courses probably don't change their behaviour.

Quote from: Pete on August 18, 2024, 03:14:20 PMKelly being reinstated seems fair, hes done what they asked. My issue remains with the Argo mgmt.At every turn they've said and done what they could to support Kelly, At no time have I felt they showed compassion ti the victim. If I was a female still working in that enviroment I doubt I'd be happy

100%. I have two adult daughters. I can't imagine them working in an organization where leadership acted this way. I get that it would be very difficult to throw a potential MVP QB overboard, but they really did the worst possible job during this whole scandal. It's not like Kelly's actions could have gone unnoticed by team officials.

If this happened in Winnipeg, do you think that the FIFO culture would have nipped this in the bud? For example, someone like Bighill taking the player aside and reading him the riot act? I'd like to think so, but who knows.

Quote from: pdirks67 on August 18, 2024, 03:36:56 PM100%. I have two adult daughters. I can't imagine them working in an organization where leadership acted this way. I get that it would be very difficult to throw a potential MVP QB overboard, but they really did the worst possible job during this whole scandal. It's not like Kelly's actions could have gone unnoticed by team officials.

If this happened in Winnipeg, do you think that the FIFO culture would have nipped this in the bud? For example, someone like Bighill taking the player aside and reading him the riot act? I'd like to think so, but who knows.

Exactly and I hope people are getting a glimpse of the real Pinball Clemons now. His handling of this issue has been very suspect right from the beginning. I always suspected he was a phoney, I still can't stand listening to him, and now I am convinced. It tarnishes the whole organisation and is a black eye to the league. NO WAY would I ever want either of my two daughters to work there after this debacle.

Quote from: pdirks67 on August 18, 2024, 03:36:56 PM100%. I have two adult daughters. I can't imagine them working in an organization where leadership acted this way. I get that it would be very difficult to throw a potential MVP QB overboard, but they really did the worst possible job during this whole scandal. It's not like Kelly's actions could have gone unnoticed by team officials.

If this happened in Winnipeg, do you think that the FIFO culture would have nipped this in the bud? For example, someone like Bighill taking the player aside and reading him the riot act? I'd like to think so, but who knows.

So you seem to think if this woman worked elsewhere the harassment rules and punishments would be totally different? I doubt that very much. Also two sides to every story ALWAYS and if these are the HR harassment rules in place, it is what is is. There NEVER was a trial to bare all the facts and make a complete judgment too.

He has a LEGAL right to return to work as it stands. I will agree it would be very uncomfortable if that woman still worked there and I'm sure she could have a restraining order or what not in place if she had to. Maybe she still has one anyway against Kelly.

This is not always crystal clear how these policies play out. I'm sure they have told him a second incident and he is toast. He was punished although some people may disagree if it was enough or not. Now he must live with that rep though and some players on his team may have lost all respect for him. Don't think the punishment ends the moment he slips the Argos jersey back on unless there is a LOT OF JERKS elsewhere with the Argos.

Bleeding heart Liberals ALWAYS think anyone can be reformed, but reality shows this is not always the case. Hence some of our sappy criminal laws and so on are a farce if you ask me. Sorry to get political, but this seems like very obvious nonsense some politicians and "social engineers" like to peddle with psycho babble ideas. Looks nice in theory, but in reality a very different situation

Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 18, 2024, 10:40:55 PMSo you seem to think if this woman worked elsewhere the harassment rules and punishments would be totally different?

No, I think the rules would be very similar. It was the response that would be different and I was agreeing with the previous poster who said "At every turn they've said and done what they could to support Kelly, At no time have I felt they showed compassion ti the victim."

To this point, I think that you'd be hard-pressed to find and organization that wouldn't do a heck of a lot more to support the victim here. I'm retired, but as a former manager at a large organization, I can tell you 100% that the Argos approach to this matter was completely out of keeping with best practices.

Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 18, 2024, 10:40:55 PMAlso two sides to every story ALWAYS and if these are the HR harassment rules in place, it is what is is. There NEVER was a trail to bare all the facts and make a complete judgment too.

My understanding is that the worst of the allegations were found to be true? I don't think that anyone is currently disputing the relevant facts?
https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960 (https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960)

Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 18, 2024, 10:40:55 PMBleeding heart Liberals ALWAYS think anyone can be reformed, but reality shows this is not always the case. Hence some of our sappy criminal laws and so on are a farce if you ask me. Sorry to get political, but this seems like very obvious nonsense some politicians and "social engineers" like to peddle with psycho babble ideas. Looks nice in theory, but in reality a very different situation

I'm not sure that Kelly is reformed, but I doubt it. I probably am a bleeding heart liberal, but I certainly wouldn't claim that his punishment did anything of the sort. If anything, it hopefully scared him into keeping his harrassment out of the workplace.

Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 18, 2024, 10:40:55 PMSo you seem to think if this woman worked elsewhere the harassment rules and punishments would be totally different? I doubt that very much. Also two sides to every story ALWAYS and if these are the HR harassment rules in place, it is what is is. There NEVER was a trail to bare all the facts and make a complete judgment too.

He has a LEGAL right to return to work as it stands. I will agree it would be very uncomfortable if that woman still worked there and I'm sure she could have a restraining order or what not in place if she had to. Maybe she still has one anyway against Kelly.

This is not always crystal clear how these policies play out. I'm sure they have told him a second incident and he is toast. He was punished although some people may disagree if it was enough or not. Now he must live with that rep though and some players on his team may have lost all disrespect for him. Don't think the punishment ends the moment he slips the Argos jersey back on unless there is a LOT OF JERKS elsewhere with the Argos.

Bleeding heart Liberals ALWAYS think anyone can be reformed, but reality shows this is not always the case. Hence some of our sappy criminal laws and so on are a farce if you ask me. Sorry to get political, but this seems like very obvious nonsense some politicians and "social engineers" like to peddle with psycho babble ideas. Looks nice in theory, but in reality a very different situation

IIRC there were 6 separate complaints.

Also note that he was punished but got $300K more or less advance money to not play.  That doesn't qualify as punished to me.

Quote from: pdirks67 on August 19, 2024, 12:20:34 AMMy understanding is that the worst of the allegations were found to be true? I don't think that anyone is currently disputing the relevant facts?
https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960 (https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960)

It was an inquiry that was done, not a trial. No oath in place that I am aware if. Only legal documents were signed for evidence and claims. Can make up anything in an inquiry if no legal obligations around it.

[/quote]
I'm not sure that Kelly is reformed, but I doubt it. I probably am a bleeding heart liberal, but I certainly wouldn't claim that his punishment did anything of the sort. If anything, it hopefully scared him into keeping his harassment out of the workplace.
[/quote]

Well we can only hope, but dirtbags can take a LONG TIME to reform their ways. Probably needs anger management training beyond mere feel good country club counselling.

Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 19, 2024, 02:56:00 AMIt was an inquiry that was done, not a trial. No oath in place that I am aware if. Only legal documents were signed for evidence and claims. Can make up anything in an inquiry if no legal obligations around it.

Can make up anything anytime.

But the allegations were all in front of witnesses and through text messages so the inquiry was pretty fruitful, I gather.

So, who's the babysitter?  The team would be dumb to not have one.

Quote from: Blue In BC on August 19, 2024, 02:13:04 AMIIRC there were 6 separate complaints.

Also note that he was punished but got $300K more or less advance money to not play.  That doesn't qualify as punished to me.

IIRC 3 of the complaints were found to not have enough evidence in the Regina P.I. report.

The dude lost half the year of game cheques: that's got to be at least $100k.  Let me tell you that if someone came here and took $100k from me, I'd feel punished!!  Do you know what kind of actual crimes you have to commit to get even a $15k fine from the criminal justice system?!  $100k would be considered "cruel and unusual" for personal, non-financial crimes.

Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 18, 2024, 10:40:55 PMSo you seem to think if this woman worked elsewhere the harassment rules and punishments would be totally different? I doubt that very much. Also two sides to every story ALWAYS and if these are the HR harassment rules in place, it is what is is. There NEVER was a trial to bare all the facts and make a complete judgment too.

Yes.  Since this isn't criminal, the standard is whatever the org's "code of conduct" says it is.  So in this case it's the CFL's harassment policy.

Which leads me to my bugbear about the whole thing:

My wife was watching the end of the @BC game and SC afterwards, when the Kelly story came on.  They showed on screen and said that Kelly violated the CFL's "gender based violence" policy.  So my wife says "this ugly QB beat up ladies?".  And I said "no, he asked for dates too much, got angry at rejection, and called her names... maybe".

Low info fans and non-fans will see this news and think Kelly beats up women.  That bugs me because it's not true.  My wife pointed out that it's a bit disingenuous to word things the way they are, as she thought from the chyron that he beat up a lady.

Not once did SC ever say "he didn't beat anybody" and just tell us what he actually did.  Because it's not a nice soundbite, and they want to vilify the guy by letting everyone believe he's a violent felon.

Crucify the dude for what he actually did, great.  But why do they need to perpetuate a lie with their spin and omissions?

Quote from: Jesse on August 18, 2024, 03:17:15 PMThe people saying that it was a "greasy" tactic by the CFL (even though we have no evidence that Kelly did not have prior knowledge of the last chance deal), are the exact same people who were defending Kelly in the first place (because we didn't have evidence of his misdeeds).

It's clear the Last Chance contract was sprung at the last second because:

a) Why not just include the Last Chance stipulation in the (public) big list of things Kelly had to do to be reinstated back when he was suspended?

b) Why would Kelly and lawyers be surprised and balk if it was known?

There really is no other conceivable scenario that explains what transpired.  Besides, who cares if the league was greasy... people in positions of power do this all the time.  I am not surprised in the slightest.  If you hold all the marbles you squeeze out everything you can (and want).  There's a saying for this: it stands to reason.

Darth Ambrosie Vader: Pray I do not alter it any further.

Quote from: Jesse on August 18, 2024, 03:17:15 PMSo when they need the evidence in one case, but do not need evidence in the second case, I think we can just go ahead and assume they're not really having this discussion in good faith.

Shots fired!  I try to always argue in good faith.  You can choose to believe so or not.  I look at all available evidence and try to infer what is occurring behind the scenes.  I try to justify my positions by sticking to what civil court judges always say: "yes it's possible, but what is probable?".  Motive is everything: if we don't have the facts on everything, look for motive.  Nothing is done for no reason.

Quote from: Waffler on August 18, 2024, 03:07:13 PMIf you had a meeting with him, he had done his counseling but you still got the feeling he was just playing along, what would you do? You would want the last chance clause.

Of course he's "just playing along", because you can't force-change someone's mind.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Now, if he has an epiphany in all of this and sees how he can be better, then maybe he'll change of his own volition.  Otherwise he'll just keep his nature under wraps and behave.  And that should be good enough.

Even though some desperately want it to be so, there are no "thought police".  Let the dude think whatever he wants to.  To force a person to think what you want them to think is evil.

Dude is starting vs the riders

Guess we cheer for him to win ??  Ugh

I know what I am thinking I want to happen but I can't post it. 

Quote from: The Zipp on August 20, 2024, 05:33:25 PMDude is starting vs the riders

Guess we cheer for him to win ??  Ugh

I know what I am thinking I want to happen but I can't post it. 

You're not alone in that thinking Zippy!!

Quote from: The Zipp on August 20, 2024, 05:33:25 PMDude is starting vs the riders

Guess we cheer for him to win ??  Ugh

I know what I am thinking I want to happen but I can't post it. 

Here I will say it for you. I hope he throws 3 picks, gets clobbered another 5 times, gets pulled out for Dukes , Argos still manage to win the game. :)

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on August 20, 2024, 05:50:18 PMHere I will say it for you. I hope he throws 3 picks, gets clobbered another 5 times, gets pulled out for Dukes , Argos still manage to win the game. :)

Close - i was being a bit more on the mean side..but I will take your version too.

Kelly's first interview to me seems below par for course for me. Sure he apologizes the world away but does he really believe and conduct himself in this manner now and into the future? Hmmm, last chance Chad.

Wonder if Uncle Jim makes his trips down to the big smoke for games still?

Pretty hard to like this guy. Argo fans are put in a weird scenario.

Time will tell with this guy...

Quote from: The Zipp on August 20, 2024, 05:33:25 PMDude is starting vs the riders

Guess we cheer for him to win ??  Ugh

I know what I am thinking I want to happen but I can't post it. 

Gotta pull for the Argos in this one. But maybe what you're hoping for can happen too.

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on August 20, 2024, 06:07:03 PMKelly's first interview to me seems below par for course for me. Sure he apologizes the world away but does he really believe and conduct himself in this manner now and into the future? Hmmm, last chance Chad.

Did you get a glimpse of his babysitter?  ;D  ;D  ;D

Was the sitter refilling Kelly's sippy cup and changing his diaper?   :D  :D  :D

In any event, GO KELLY!!
(We need a strong and good Kelly to keep the East honest and hopefully get MTL all dinged up before we face them in the GC.)

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 20, 2024, 10:42:14 PM(We need a strong and good Kelly to keep the East honest and hopefully get MTL all dinged up before we face them in the GC.)

Toronto is not the same team they were last year, even with Kelly. They certainly aren't going to scare Montreal.

Quote from: The Zipp on August 20, 2024, 06:06:08 PMClose - i was being a bit more on the mean side..but I will take your version too.

I was thinking alot more on the mean side!!

The guys a jerk, best case he stinks and argos still win when arbuckle goes in to replace him cause he too "rusty"

I just listened to Kelly on TSN. The media were pretty easy on him. What he had to say sounded scripted and rehearsed. I didn't like him fishing for sympathy because he'd been forced to sit for 9 games. It sounded disingenuous to hear him refer to his victim as "the person". He was right about one thing. People are entitled to their opinion.

One question - where is John Murphy in all this?  Has he just flown under the radar?

I know this is specifically about Kelly, but Murphy is a big part of this as well.

Quote from: Big Daddy on August 21, 2024, 12:09:11 PMOne question - where is John Murphy in all this?  Has he just flown under the radar?

I know this is specifically about Kelly, but Murphy is a big part of this as well.

Murphy had an obligation to report this to the CFL, and as far as we know, he did not.

But if Murphy denied that he he was told, that may have been as far as it went. After it was settled, everyone just hopes this all blows over as soon as possible.

I get the reason for the hate but I actually hope it's the opposite. I've made plenty of bad choices in my life. Different but ones I wish I could take back. I'm sure most of us have. I hope he's sincere and that the education he received (and continues to receive) actually makes a difference. I hope he succeeds in his personal growth. The CFL is made for redemption stories. We have several fan favorites on our team who have made poor choices at points in their life. I've got no patience for those who aren't trying to do better but I've got open mind and lots of patience for those that are.

He hasn't grown. He seems pretty incorrigible.

Ten years ago (college): https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/10782554/clemson-tigers-dismiss-qb-chad-kelly-conduct-detrimental-team

Six years ago (NFL): https://www.nfl.com/news/chad-kelly-released-by-broncos-day-after-arrest-0ap3000000977922

Five years ago (NFL): https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/nfl-suspends-colts-chad-kelly-two-games

Some people are beyond redemption and I don't think he's an exception in that regard.

He's had roughly a decade to better himself and seemingly hasn't. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt, IMO.

Sometimes hating on someone turns into entertainment. Hope that hasn't happened here.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 21, 2024, 02:20:06 PMI get the reason for the hate but I actually hope it's the opposite. I've made plenty of bad choices in my life. Different but ones I wish I could take back. I'm sure most of us have. I hope he's sincere and that the education he received (and continues to receive) actually makes a difference. I hope he succeeds in his personal growth. The CFL is made for redemption stories. We have several fan favorites on our team who have made poor choices at points in their life. I've got no patience for those who aren't trying to do better but I've got open mind and lots of patience for those that are.

He's paid a heavy price which came right out of his own pocket, the fact he took the CFL punishment without fleeing to another league/country never to return, or fight the CFL in court, shows he realizes the CFL is now his best or only opportunity to earn bigger money. He's not a complete idiot so I'd be pretty surprised if he didn't keep a low profile and keep his off-field shenanigans to a minimum.

Quote from: bomb squad on August 21, 2024, 02:55:22 PMSometimes hating on someone turns into entertainment. Hope that hasn't happened here.

I think it's a case of we place a lot of value in the CFL and want what's best for the league. Personally, I think Kelly is a negative on our league and would prefer if he wasn't a part of it.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 21, 2024, 03:00:44 PMHe's paid a heavy price which came right out of his own pocket, the fact he took the CFL punishment without fleeing to another league/country never to return, or fight the CFL in court, shows he realizes the CFL is now his best or only opportunity to earn bigger money. He's not a complete idiot so I'd be pretty surprised if he didn't keep a low profile and keep his off-field shenanigans to a minimum.

Yes, he realizes this is his last chance, hence the Last Chance" clause in his reprieve.

He has to be on his best behaviour to stay.

But that's the issue.  If he has to make sure he doesn't do crappy things to people just to keep his job, then he hasn't advanced / evolved.  He's still the same DB, but with a filter on.  And that is NOT the idea of "retraining".

A leopard ain't gonna change his spots.  He's just a ticking time bomb waiting to go off again.  We see it all the time.  Manzeil is a prime example.  How many chances did HE get?

Again, Pinball tied his cart to this horse, who has done nothing but bring strife and conflict to the team, when he was supposed to help fill the stadium.  There should be busses coming from Buffalo to Argo's games.  instead, Argos will actually have fans booing him as he takes the field, and who knows how many fans their enabling him has cost the Argos, as well as the negative gate effect he will have when the team is on the road.

There are so many better stories out there, so many better people to base a franchise around.  I am sure there were clauses in his contract that Pinball could have exercised to get out when the story first broke, but chose not to.

When (not if) he regresses and gets kicked out of the league, it eill be a much bigger black eye because the league allowed him to continue.

I'm OK with Kelly being reinstated. He served his "sentence" as served out by the league, and he's been told that he has no more chances. I'm sure he is still a complete jerk, but my feeling is that the league is right in giving him a last chance. Although, let's face it, if he was a backup import LB, he would have been released immediately. But that's the way the world works.

From the reporting, I find it difficult to believe that (apparently) no one - management, other coaches, or teammates - did anything to stop what was happening. Someone must have known, and pretty much everyone for sure did know after the screaming match. If not because of the ethical side, simply to tell Kelly that this could only end in a huge black eye both for him and the team.
Source: https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960 (https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960)

How would this have been handled if it happend in Winnipeg? We will hopefully never find out. I THINK that someone would have acted as a circuit breaker if they knew what was happening? Can anyone see O'Shea or Bighill not reading the riot act to the player at first knowledge?

Kelly started the journey, but it sure seems to me like the Argos culture failed to stop the journey.

Quote from: pdirks67 on August 21, 2024, 04:46:11 PMI'm OK with Kelly being reinstated. He served his "sentence" as served out by the league, and he's been told that he has no more chances. I'm sure he is still a complete jerk, but my feeling is that the league is right in giving him a last chance. Although, let's face it, if he was a backup import LB, he would have been released immediately. But that's the way the world works.

From the reporting, I find it difficult to believe that (apparently) no one - management, other coaches, or teammates - did anything to stop what was happening. Someone must have known, and pretty much everyone for sure did know after the screaming match. If not because of the ethical side, simply to tell Kelly that this could only end in a huge black eye both for him and the team.
Source: https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960 (https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960)

How would this have been handled if it happend in Winnipeg? We will hopefully never find out. I THINK that someone would have acted as a circuit breaker if they knew what was happening? Can anyone see O'Shea or Bighill not reading the riot act to the player at first knowledge?

Kelly started the journey, but it sure seems to me like the Argos culture failed to stop the journey.

I don't think a player with that baggage makes it past first scrutiny here.  This team deals with issues quickly and decisively.

This was not a stupid bonehead mistake, like DUI or a social media misstep.  This was the repetition of a pattern of behaviour the CFL and its teams is actively marketing against.  The Argos are going to have to deal with fan reaction and even reaction within the team, especially if he shows rust and falters out of the gate.

Quote from: Jesse on August 21, 2024, 12:40:45 PMMurphy had an obligation to report this to the CFL, and as far as we know, he did not.

But if Murphy denied that he he was told, that may have been as far as it went. After it was settled, everyone just hopes this all blows over as soon as possible.

I guess I'm thinking of when this all broke, and the athletic therapist said when she told John Murphy that she confronted Kelly  about his behavior, Murphy told her she had "opened a can of worms that didn't need to be opened".  Not exactly a statement that is meant to be supportive and promoting a safe work environment.

The CFL and others clearly believed her about Kelly, and who know what all happened behind closed doors, but it seems as though Murphy's responsibility in all this has been swept under the carpet.

Ok so some guy, Kelly, makes a "pass" (a verbal comment of a nature possibly being complimentary) and she turns. Itndown.
Kelly persists because he likes her.
Eventually his frustration takes over
He then tells his buddies she is a *****.

I have seen that type of scenarios by young men chasing a woman before in school before.
It's an immature response to being rebuked by a young usually successful guy.

I thought that was called flirting.
In my opinion, a woman working in a formerly traditional men's workplace, will be subject to swearing, cursing nudity, and traditionally known as behavior common to a male locker room.
If you are offended by it, rather than recognizing it as common male behavior and locker room talk, then she should have removed herself from the organization voluntarily.

Yea yea sure sure, it may have been politically correct, in today's public.  But this wasn't meant for public consumption.  This was locker room talk.  And in many locker room situations, is perhaps more common than others. If they support the mantra, that they are all a family, perhaps the old motto, " what happens in the locker room, or Argo facility, stays within the club's domain"

Perhaps that was the situation, or something similar. 

I doubt any player would vocally embarrass the female, in public.

In one of my last years, we had a gorgeous Caribbean gal learning to be a "trainer" she was gorgeous and all business. She was far too gentle with my ankles, and I had to get my ankles taped by the more common veteran male trainer. I didn't flirt with any of them!

The gal went on to become a leader in the dance world.  I would guess she received tons of compliments from numerous people, based on her appearance, knowledge, encouragement, etc.

Young men aren't necessarily suave and sophisticated, and awkward attempts to impress her ( by offering to take her out) are certainly not initially sexual.

Certainly, if there was bodily contact, inappropriate touching and sexual assault, Kelly should be suspended.  The woman has apparently left the organization.

Kelly should not associate with any female in the Argos organization.

Quote from: Jesse on August 21, 2024, 03:55:45 PMI think it's a case of we place a lot of value in the CFL and want what's best for the league. Personally, I think Kelly is a negative on our league and would prefer if he wasn't a part of it.

Imagine it's the 2024 GC in BC... Kelly gets MVP and is the first to hoist the cup... does everyone boo?  Does the league rob him of GC MVP even if he's clearly the MVP?

Interesting times!  Good thing TOR picked BMO Stadium for Kelly's first game back!  There's actually a chance he won't get booed.  TOR fans will be desperate for his return by this point.

Quote from: theaardvark on August 21, 2024, 05:03:05 PMThis was not a stupid bonehead mistake, like DUI or a social media misstep.  This was the repetition of a pattern of behaviour the CFL and its teams is actively marketing against.

Uh, in my opinion a DUI is far worse than what Kelly did.  A DUI has the capacity to kill someone.  Kelly never laid a finger on anyone and no one was ever in any physical peril.  And a DUI is a criminal offense that can land you in court and jail.  Kelly just broke a nebulous, modern "code of conduct" that didn't even exist 25 years ago -- at worst a civil infraction (i.e. show me the money!).

Quote from: DM83 on August 21, 2024, 05:42:54 PMCertainly, if there was bodily contact, inappropriate touching and sexual assault, Kelly should be suspended.  The woman has apparently left the organization.

Even though the press only ever says "Kelly broke rules in the CFL's Gender Based Violence Policy", Kelly committed no violence.  It wasn't even alleged.

Way earlier in the thread I broke down what seems to have happened based on the final reports and leaked information, go read that one, it's pretty long.  The worst "crime" was the lunch room tray floor-tossing, and I gave a great "how would you feel" explanation of that one, based on the fact that she accused him to his face of saying bad things it turned out he never said (as per the investigation).

He's an on-the-spectrum douche who can't take no and didn't know when to quit, and then acted like a sophomore in HS with (alleged) gossip and name-calling, and finally did the ol' fist-in-the-wall type thing with the tray when she accused him of something he didn't do.  That's basically it.

No, it's not acceptable.  Yes, he should be smarter.  This is 2024 and the woke mob has taken over everything and you have to be pretty dim not to play ball after you've signed a contract with a code of conduct.  When a female brushes you off once or twice nowadays you need to just stay away.  I'm not sure who doesn't get it at this point?

That said, it's very tame compared to 80's standards, and very tame compared to players who have broken actual laws, or compared to NFL players actually beating up ladies in elevators.

Quote from: DM83 on August 21, 2024, 05:42:54 PMKelly should not associate with any female in the Argos organization.

100%.  Like I said: babysitter.  You need a witness with and camera on Kelly at all times so a) he behaves and b) you have absolute proof of innocence if an unscrupulous lady tries to get a $400k payday (precedent has been set).

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 21, 2024, 11:07:09 PMUh, in my opinion a DUI is far worse than what Kelly did.  A DUI has the capacity to kill someone.  Kelly never laid a finger on anyone and no one was ever in any physical peril.  And a DUI is a criminal offense that can land you in court and jail.  Kelly just broke a nebulous, modern "code of conduct" that didn't even exist 25 years ago -- at worst a civil infraction (i.e. show me the money!).

Tecno I agree with a lot of what you say.  I also agree that a DUI is not trivial.  I haven't read your breakdown of what happened, I didn't know that is somewhere and I would like to read it.  Serious question - how sure are you of the facts?  From what you are saying Kelly didn't do a whole lot, which sure doesn't seem to be consistent with the outcome (which may be the point you are making).

I am no fan of "woke" culture, at least not the cancel version of it.  However, from all the history of Kelly in college and nfl, it would be hard to give him the benefit of the doubt with this transgression. 

I could be wrong, and like others have said, I do hope he has actually learned and changed this time.

Quote from: Big Daddy on August 22, 2024, 12:55:29 AMTecno I agree with a lot of what you say.  I also agree that a DUI is not trivial.  I haven't read your breakdown of what happened, I didn't know that is somewhere and I would like to read it.  Serious question - how sure are you of the facts?  From what you are saying Kelly didn't do a whole lot, which sure doesn't seem to be consistent with the outcome (which may be the point you are making).

I am no fan of "woke" culture, at least not the cancel version of it.  However, from all the history of Kelly in college and nfl, it would be hard to give him the benefit of the doubt with this transgression. 

I could be wrong, and like others have said, I do hope he has actually learned and changed this time.

It's been statistically proven people change over time, highest rate of criminal activity in males is 20-26, it drops off significantly once a person reaches 30.  This is closely correlated to alcohol consumption and the diminishment of party mode once past 30. Chad needs to settle down with one girlfriend or a wife, extending party mode into ones 30's usually ends in addiction or death.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 22, 2024, 01:22:09 AMIt's been statistically proven people change over time, highest rate of criminal activity in males is 20-26, it drops off significantly once a person reaches 30.  This is closely correlated to alcohol consumption and the diminishment of party mode once past 30. Chad needs to settle down with one girlfriend or a wife, extending party mode into ones 30's usually ends in addiction or death.

Fair points - I'll take your word for the stats you are quoting, I've seen many, many exceptions to these stats but I believe you that the odds are in favor of growth/improvement.

Again I hope he is improving, for his own sake.

On another note, I don't think there has been anything other than armchair speculation about Kelly's mental health or diagnoses.  I haven't seen anything objective supporting that he is on the spectrum of autism.

One could easily make the case for sociopathy being relevant.  I'm not saying that is the case as I've never spoken to him nor seen his medical history, but I doubt anyone here has either.

Quote from: Big Daddy on August 22, 2024, 12:55:29 AMTecno I agree with a lot of what you say.  I also agree that a DUI is not trivial.  I haven't read your breakdown of what happened, I didn't know that is somewhere and I would like to read it.  Serious question - how sure are you of the facts?  From what you are saying Kelly didn't do a whole lot, which sure doesn't seem to be consistent with the outcome (which may be the point you are making).

I could be wrong, and like others have said, I do hope he has actually learned and changed this time.

Found it.  It was the older thread, not this one, sorry.

http://forums.bluebombers.com/index.php?topic=55540.msg1621104#msg1621104

You can read the tsn.ca article linked therein, then read my dissection of it.  Read it all and see what you think.

The media does what the media does with lying by omission.  They don't mention anywhere ever the facts that the tsn.ca article did, and even in that article they don't put 2 & 2 together and try to frame things in the worst possible way.  The fact that you said what you said above proves that the media is pushing a certain narrative and the average fan just thinks Kelly was doing something much worse, like physically abusing someone.

I'm not defending Kelly, he's a piece of work.  But I hate the process in these situations, and I can see how he might feel shafted at every turn.  Life isn't fair.  So I guess the moral of the story is don't get into any trouble to begin with, because they will crucify you.

One day, maybe after 5 years of GC wins and being the poster child for the Boy Scouts, the league & media will change their tune and laud Kelly as fully reformed and neutered.  At that time they may finally just come out and say what I deduced in that post.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 22, 2024, 01:22:09 AMChad needs to settle down with one girlfriend or a wife, extending party mode into ones 30's usually ends in addiction or death.

The best thing Kelly could ever do is marry a hard-nosed wife who is basically his opposite (complementary couple).  Of course, that's not usually the type these guys go after.  But it would do wonders for his career and image.

Quote from: Big Daddy on August 22, 2024, 02:01:44 AMOn another note, I don't think there has been anything other than armchair speculation about Kelly's mental health or diagnoses.  I haven't seen anything objective supporting that he is on the spectrum of autism.

One could easily make the case for sociopathy being relevant.  I'm not saying that is the case as I've never spoken to him nor seen his medical history, but I doubt anyone here has either.

100% we all should outright say we have no clue on his mental diagnoses.  However, some (many?) of us know spectrum or sociopathic people and we can see in him what we see in them.  I have a close in-law who is spectrum (diagnosed, legally and documented) without any outward signs... until you start to interact with him.  He's basically Kelly.  No clue as to what is appropriate or what is "too far", and everything is awkward.  That's my basis (however weak) for guessing "spectrum" for Kelly.

I also had a close friend who was sociopathic.  I don't think that's Kelly.  While the possible narcissism hints at it, so many other things are missing: like being exceptionally smart and manipulative.  Kelly seems rather low IQ for a QB, and doesn't look like he could manipulate his way out of a paper bag.

A sociopath would have handled all of this much more subtly and aptly, and probably gotten away with it.

If he is spectrum, we have to acknowledge some of this may not be his fault, in a legal or even moral sense.  He may truly have a difficult or impossible time understanding why you don't do what he does.  Not an excuse, but something to consider.

Interview with Chad Kelly after he won the GC in 2022, he seems fairly intelligent and reasonably sharp.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 21, 2024, 11:07:09 PMUh, in my opinion a DUI is far worse than what Kelly did.  A DUI has the capacity to kill someone.  Kelly never laid a finger on anyone and no one was ever in any physical peril.  And a DUI is a criminal offense that can land you in court and jail.  Kelly just broke a nebulous, modern "code of conduct" that didn't even exist 25 years ago -- at worst a civil infraction (i.e. show me the money!).

A DUI as a pattern of behaviour, sure.  I will agree with you.  But as a one off, where no one was injured, it's a mistake that our society allows to be made, and a learning moment that rarely gets repeated unles there are underlying issues.

Kelly has a problem, a serious problem that keeps coming up.  A "Last Chance" option is not something that comes after a mistake, but rather after a lifetime of issues.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 21, 2024, 11:07:09 PMUh, in my opinion a DUI is far worse than what Kelly did.  A DUI has the capacity to kill someone.  Kelly never laid a finger on anyone and no one was ever in any physical peril.  And a DUI is a criminal offense that can land you in court and jail.  Kelly just broke a nebulous, modern "code of conduct" that didn't even exist 25 years ago -- at worst a civil infraction (i.e. show me the money!).

There's nothing modern about the social code of treating others respectfully.

Kelly harassed a colleague in his workplace - repeatedly. Just because it wasn't physical in nature doesn't change what he did or lessen the severity of it.

Harassment can absolutely be a criminal offense (https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-264.html). And just like a DUI, harassment (https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/fv-vf/har/part1.html) has the capacity to cause harm.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 22, 2024, 05:12:56 AM100% we all should outright say we have no clue on his mental diagnoses.

You should really have just stopped here. We're not qualified and we have no interactions with the person.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on August 22, 2024, 01:46:12 PMThere's nothing modern about the social code of treating others respectfully.

Kelly harassed a colleague in his workplace - repeatedly.

Disingenuous saying "colleague".  If he had treated one of his co-players that way, no one would ever have said boo, because yelling and name calling happens every day in a locker room.  This whole issue blew up because the trainer was a woman.  Hence, the "he violated the gender based violence policy".

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on August 22, 2024, 01:46:12 PMJust because it wasn't physical in nature doesn't change what he did or lessen the severity of it.

Disingenuous.  Yes it does.  If it was physical he'd be facing criminal charges.

If we try to equate words to physical violence, then we minimize the plight of those who face the far worse physical violence.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on August 22, 2024, 01:46:12 PMHarassment can absolutely be a criminal offense (https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-264.html).

Disingenuous.  Kelly's harassment did not rise to the level of criminality.  Sure, if he keeps doing it after she gets a restraining order, then you have something.  But that's not the case here.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on August 22, 2024, 01:46:12 PMAnd just like a DUI, harassment (https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/fv-vf/har/part1.html) has the capacity to cause harm.

Disingenuous.  Conflating mental/emotional with physical harm.  And if you mean he escalates into physical, then that becomes a separate, actual/worse, crime.  But it didn't, so it doesn't.

Why is there the need to muddy and conflate and confuse.  Why do we need to make Kelly's infraction sound worse than it was?  It minimizes the harm sufferers of real violence experienced, and it's also not fair to the perpetrators.

Disingenuous.  Conflating mental/emotional with physical harm.  And if you mean he escalates into physical, then that becomes a separate, actual/worse, crime.  But it didn't, so it doesn't.


[/quote]

I'm sorry Tecno, but this part is wrong.  Mental/emotional harm can be every bit as damaging as physical harm, and sometimes more so. 

Minimizing mental/emotional damage is not helpful for our military personnel suffering from PTSD, and indeed anyone struggling with this.  I'm sure you are not intending to do that, so I'm just clarifying this point.

Quote from: DM83 on August 21, 2024, 05:42:54 PMOk so some guy, Kelly, makes a "pass" (a verbal comment of a nature possibly being complimentary) and she turns. Itndown.
Kelly persists because he likes her.
Eventually his frustration takes over
He then tells his buddies she is a *****.

I have seen that type of scenarios by young men chasing a woman before in school before.
It's an immature response to being rebuked by a young usually successful guy.

I thought that was called flirting.

What you call persistence, I call harassment. Asking someone out, calling, texting over and over and over in a workplace environment where the target has said "no" over and over and over is, at the very least, unprofessional. It becomes harassment when you do not stop, and when you don't get your desired result, you denigrate the other person to other co-workers and staff.

This topic has been discussed sufficiently to close this thread as Kelly has been reinstated regardless of anyone's opinion.

He is a playing member of the Argos so lets keep comments directed to his field performances.  If he re-offends we know what the outcome will be.  Thanks.