Blue Bombers Forum

I've never been a fan of Kelly and his demeanour/persona....these are rather serious charges and allegations and doesn't speak well of the Argos handling of this incident....there's always more to the story that we don't always get however it shines a bad light on the Argos star QB and the Argo management.

https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/rick-westhead-argos-qb-kelly-accused-of-harassment-in-wrongful-dismissal-lawsuit-1.2079719

Bad light is right!! Kelly has always struck me as one strange duck, but this is over the top serious. If convicted, wonder what the league is going to do in terms of actions/suspensions. This violates any and all code of conduct policies around.

Wikipedia has a couple of notations...

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26315480/ex-broncos-qb-kelly-pleads-guilty-trespassing

Not sure if this was related:

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/nfl-suspends-colts-chad-kelly-two-games

and now this...

Not reflecting good on the league that this is the highest paid player.

Bad egg

Don't think he would be a fit in the MOS locker room....I always felt there was something off about him....this looks bad for not only the Argo organization but the entire league.   Trying to sweep this kind of incident under the rug is just unacceptable....

Quote from: theaardvark on February 23, 2024, 12:06:10 AMWikipedia has a couple of notations...

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26315480/ex-broncos-qb-kelly-pleads-guilty-trespassing

Not sure if this was related:

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/nfl-suspends-colts-chad-kelly-two-games

and now this...

Not reflecting good on the league that this is the highest paid player.

There's quite a few more than that. Jeff Hamilton retweeted the article he wrote when Kelly entered the league that runs them down.

Quote from: Jesse on February 23, 2024, 01:58:02 AMThere's quite a few more than that. Jeff Hamilton retweeted the article he wrote when Kelly entered the league that runs them down.

Yah - I guess I had missed that when he originally wrote it, wow this guy has some significant issues.  You have to wonder how much Pinball was involved in this...the dude has been incredible for the CFL and this will tarnish his shining star for sure.

John Murphy always seemed a bit shady to me but clearly I have never interacted with him so it just from seeing and reading stuff in the media.

Read the article late last night on TSN and those are some pretty heinous allegations. Not a good look for the reigning MOP or the Argonauts organization.

John Murphy has always been a classless bozo.

There's no doubt Kelly can play QB at a high level, however his character off the field and in the locker room has a lot to be described.    I'm sure the Argos want this to go away however there needs to be a full investigation to fully reveal the nature of these alleged charges against Kelly.

Stupid Chad. Not what the CFL needs.

Didn't they get his rights by trading away Johnny Manzeil's rights?  Or is this just my irony generator at word?

How can they make it to the start of the season with him as their franchise player?

Slim pickings behind him...

11    Dukes, Cameron    QB    A    6'1    205    25    Lindsey Wilson College
12    Kelly, Chad    QB    A    6'2    216    29    Mississippi
5    Scott, Bryan    QB    A    6'2    220    28    Occidental College

This is pretty serious. Clemons gonna be put in a tight spot with this one. Image, due process, superstar,  etc. Looking at everything, at this time, my prediction is Kelly doesn't take a snap in the CFL this year.

Quote from: bomb squad on February 23, 2024, 04:56:07 PMThis is pretty serious. Clemons gonna be put in a tight spot with this one. Image, due process, superstar,  etc. Looking at everything, at this time, my prediction is Kelly doesn't take a snap in the CFL this year.

You could be correct.  With so much $SMS already spent on Kelly (not sure how much is signing/roster bonus), he had to sacrifice a lot of the team.  He may recover some of the $SMS if Kelly is suspended, but who is there to spend it on?  Hand the ball to Dukes and cross your fingers? 

Not a good thing when the franchise that needs the most help attracting fans has this happen. 

Quote from: bomb squad on February 23, 2024, 04:56:07 PMThis is pretty serious. Clemons gonna be put in a tight spot with this one. Image, due process, superstar,  etc. Looking at everything, at this time, my prediction is Kelly doesn't take a snap in the CFL this year.

Very poorly handled, they're in a pickle now.  Offer Dane Evans $300k to come out of retirement.

John Murphy looks just as bad if not worse than CK here imo

Murphy was "fake" fired by TO once already after the gay slur and fight with a Hamilton fan. I say fake because he was an off the books consultant for TO the following year and then rehired as Assistant GM. 

So if anyone is going to wiggle out of this it would be Toronto. The league just favors them because we "need" them. TSN cheers for them too.

I wonder even if Pinball himself stays clean. He knows whats been going on. He hired Murphy as his assistant a year after "firing him" didn't he? I remember him going down to the sideline a couple of times to calm the bench but no follow up later. It seems he encourages the toxic atmosphere there by who he hires and who he keeps. He could have cleaned house many times in the past few years but chooses not to. He must want it this way. Has it brought the fans in yet?

Kai Locksley and Dom Davis seem to be the only unsigned FA's... Cornelius is still out there too... maybe they can get Darian Durant to sign up, probably have to give a big signing bonus.  Or can he sign, still being Blue Bomber property...

Quote from: dd on February 22, 2024, 11:56:20 PMBad light is right!! Kelly has always struck me as one strange duck, but this is over the top serious. If convicted, wonder what the league is going to do in terms of actions/suspensions. This violates any and all code of conduct policies around.

I read the article on 3down and saw nothing that is "criminal", so no "conviction".  Very bad behavior, yes, but even though they use the word "violence" there is no allegation I read of physical contact.  Thus it's a matter of speech and being a general douche: harassment, etc.  That is a civil matter, which is exactly what the article says about her seeking ~$50k from each.  She will sue for damages in civil court and/or out-of-court deals/arbitration (the likely result).

I watched that TSN long segment on Kelly from last season, I think the "2023 season preview" show where he's interviewed with his uncle(?) the famous guy I had never heard of.  They talked at length about him being a bad apple in the NFL and all of his off-field troubles (ya, like Maziel).  And about how Kelly had gotten past all of that and promised to be a good boy.  I guess not!

It's hard to change your personality, and maybe Kelly managed to subdue it a bit.  Clearly he hasn't solved his problems, though.

I'm not defending him; I don't like his stank face attitude either.  But read the actual articles and read what is actually alleged before getting all worked up.  He's accused of being a slimeball saying slimy things in private and with lots of people around and not shutting up when told he's crossing the line.  You don't treat people like that.  And now he's going to pay the toll because this is a really bad look for the Argos, whose image was being reformed by smiles and sparkles Pinball.

Quote from: bomb squad on February 23, 2024, 04:56:07 PMThis is pretty serious. Clemons gonna be put in a tight spot with this one. Image, due process, superstar,  etc. Looking at everything, at this time, my prediction is Kelly doesn't take a snap in the CFL this year.

My prediction is they pay the asking $$ darn fast and sweep the whole thing under the rug.  Kelly comes out and does a big apology tour and promises to do better.  (Maybe Murphy finally takes the boot, though.)  There is basically zero chance the Argos don't start Kelly week 1.  Kelly may be the best QB in the league at the moment once you factor in age, and there are zero other options for TOR.

There are no criminal allegations at play, so this can end no worse for Kelly than any of the myriad of actual criminal convictions other CFL players have dealt with... cough cough

Where there is smoke there is a fire and this will blow unless they get ahead of this now

There's fire alright. I hope the fired employee has the strength to take this one to the end and Kelly gets what he deserves. He has always come across as a creep with freaky eyes

If her allegations are true. The Toronto Argonauts as a whole should be ashamed and the CFL needs to take action. Behavior like this is not tolerated in any work place and shouldn't be tolerated by the CFL. No sweeping this under the carpet.   

Similar to the Chicago Blackhawks incident. Opposite in that was where a video coach "groomed, harassed, threatened and assaulted" a player. This is the player harassing a coach.

Result: An independent investigation resulted in top Blackhawks executives losing their jobs and a $2 million NHL fine against the team.

Quote from: Waffler on February 24, 2024, 04:49:00 PMSimilar to the Chicago Blackhawks incident. Opposite in that was where a video coach "groomed, harassed, threatened and assaulted" a player. This is the player harassing a coach.

Result: An independent investigation resulted in top Blackhawks executives losing their jobs and a $2 million NHL fine against the team.

That's a different situation, the NHL has 31 other organizations to pressure the Blackhawks into taking the appropriate actions to influence public perception.  The CFL has 8 other teams of mostly belligerent owners that protect the status quo, they're not going to derail the Argos, I doubt this will go any higher than Murphy receiving a slap on the wrist.

My prediction is that there will be an apology from Kelly and life will go on.  The Argos will not simply banish Kelly from the team given his status and ability on the field because he said something offensive to another human being.

I don't necessarily agree with a decision like that but that is a personal view.  I do understand "saying something" is generally viewed differently than "doing something".

Bottom line is that IMHO, Kelly will not be released but he will profusely apologize and that will be the of it.  If it happens again, that will be a different ballgame.

the danger here in jumping to assumptions is that we are only hearing one side of the story.
Obviously Kelly's previous history doesn't help him.
But it also makes him a target.
Whether it goes much further may depend on whether others come out of the woodwork with similar stories about Chad or the argo which would cause this situation to escalate
That it wasn't reported to league is worrisome.

Quote from: Pete on February 24, 2024, 05:48:06 PMthe danger here in jumping to assumptions is that we are only hearing one side of the story.
Obviously Kelly's previous history doesn't help him.
But it also makes him a target.
Whether it goes much further may depend on whether others come out of the woodwork with similar stories about Chad or the argo which would cause this situation to escalate
That it wasn't reported to league is worrisome.

It is worrisome. The CFL will have to address it at some point.

A man, in a position of power, pressuring a woman subordinate into anything she does not want to do is unacceptable.

Its not like he is unaware of the boundaries, and it sounds like this was not a one off in passing situation.

He must have had sensitivity training, etc, in the past, and the Argos should have made it a part of signing him.

With the CFL's stand about Violence against Women, this will not go unpunished.

It sounds like there will be a lot more coming out about it, from all three sides, unless it gets swept under the table.

Quote from: Waffler on February 23, 2024, 07:29:16 PMMurphy was "fake" fired by TO once already after the gay slur and fight with a Hamilton fan. I say fake because he was an off the books consultant for TO the following year and then rehired as Assistant GM. 

So if anyone is going to wiggle out of this it would be Toronto. The league just favors them because we "need" them. TSN cheers for them too.

I just do not think that any action will be taken against Kelly and the Arfos.  When it comes down to TO, thereis  a doubble standardin my humble opinion.  If something simmiler happens in another CFL city then the hammer falls. >:(

It's a sad reality that if it was a no name player, he'd be bounced quickly. But Kelly's status will likely protect him.

Was this just a civil filing, or criminal filing in Ontario? If criminal and convicted, he may be banned from even entering Canada. So would be a moot point he's still with the Argos. If civil (either wins case or loses), then still probably gets a suspension of some sort and made to attend some counselling while on a probationary period.

I think more than likely this gets settled out of court before anything goes to trial. What happens for this season I have no clue though. Pinball and Argo's in a tough position over this crazy behaviour.

Quote from: Jesse on February 24, 2024, 08:54:50 PMIt's a sad reality that if it was a no name player, he'd be bounced quickly. But Kelly's status will likely protect him.

Yes I get your point but we shall see what actually happens...
He could face some kinda suspension. They have Dukes so they might be ok anyways. No RB though.

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on February 25, 2024, 01:04:38 AMYes I get your point but we shall see what actually happens...
He could face some kinda suspension. They have Dukes so they might be ok anyways. No RB though.

They signed Ka'deem Carey

Quote from: ichabod_crane on February 25, 2024, 12:19:34 AMWas this just a civil filing, or criminal filing in Ontario? If criminal and convicted, he may be banned from even entering Canada. So would be a moot point he's still with the Argos. If civil (either wins case or loses), then still probably gets a suspension of some sort and made to attend some counselling while on a probationary period.

I think more than likely this gets settled out of court before anything goes to trial. What happens for this season I have no clue though. Pinball and Argo's in a tough position over this crazy behaviour.

I think it'll be settled quickly out of court and Kelly will receive a 1 or 2 game suspension from the league as a symbolic gesture, whether he's guilty or not will not be debated.  The CFL BOG is not about to shoot themselves in the foot by upending one of their flagship franchises.

I doubt that Kelly misses any games. He will likely just make an apology. 

I'm not sure that not renewing a contract is wrongful dismissal. They didn't fire her.

Yelling at someone & threatening them is definitely harassment. Management not taking it seriously is reason for their dismissal. 

Pay the girl what she's asking for.

He definitely should get some sort of suspension. An incident like this shouldn't be trivialized or brushed aside just because he's a starting Qb. Minimum of 1 game from the league and if it was a repeated offense, more depending on the frequency.

Even if not suspended, I can't imagine what his teammates think of him. First he throws his training staff and coaches under the bus saying he was concussed in the playoff game he absolutely stunk in and should never have been in the game, and now this. Not sure about his teammates but I have zero respect for this guy

Serious baggage he carried with him to the CFL has erupted....When you sign a guy like this , prepare for the worst...Definitely there has to be a suspension for this type of conduct...IF there's a legal infraction, this could get ugly

Quote from: dd on February 25, 2024, 11:47:42 PMHe definitely should get some sort of suspension. An incident like this shouldn't be trivialized or brushed aside just because he's a starting Qb. Minimum of 1 game from the league and if it was a repeated offense, more depending on the frequency.

Even if not suspended, I can't imagine what his teammates think of him. First he throws his training staff and coaches under the bus saying he was concussed in the playoff game he absolutely stunk in and should never have been in the game, and now this. Not sure about his teammates but I have zero respect for this guy

My feelings precisely!   What a knob!   This should not be trivialized and investigated fully!   Superstar status does not supersede being immune to proper disciplinary action!   

Quote from: theaardvark on February 24, 2024, 07:53:22 PMA man, in a position of power, pressuring a woman subordinate into anything she does not want to do is unacceptable.

Its not like he is unaware of the boundaries, and it sounds like this was not a one off in passing situation.

He must have had sensitivity training, etc, in the past, and the Argos should have made it a part of signing him.

With the CFL's stand about Violence against Women, this will not go unpunished.

It sounds like there will be a lot more coming out about it, from all three sides, unless it gets swept under the table.

Time for the CFL to walk the talk. Personally would have a hard time supporting the CFL if they do nothing.

Quote from: bryan35 on February 27, 2024, 04:28:30 PMTime for the CFL to walk the talk. Personally would have a hard time supporting the CFL if they do nothing.

It'll depend on what the overlords at MLSE have to say, IMO. Bad publicity is the last thing the Argonauts need and I expect the damage control is in overdrive right now with what took place.

Quote from: blueraid on February 26, 2024, 05:36:04 PMSerious baggage he carried with him to the CFL has erupted....When you sign a guy like this , prepare for the worst...Definitely there has to be a suspension for this type of conduct...IF there's a legal infraction, this could get ugly

It sure seems like some kind of incident occurred, so there should be repercussions for Kelly's immature behaviour, even if it was just yelling.  If proven the trainer actually had an affair with another player, the Argos might be clear of the wrongful dismissal accusation as that would likely be a violation of her terms of employment.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 27, 2024, 04:59:20 PMIt sure seems like some kind of incident occurred, so there should be repercussions for Kelly's immature behaviour, even if it was just yelling.  If proven the trainer actually had an affair with another player, the Argos might be clear of the wrongful dismissal accusation as that would likely be a violation of her terms of employment.

That should work both way. If your going to terminate the trainer, you would also have to terminate the player. And, if the player is married or in a relationship, does he want to admit to a relationship with the trainer.

Quote from: Pigskin on February 27, 2024, 05:11:26 PMThat should work both way. If your going to terminate the trainer, you would also have to terminate the player. And, if the player is married or in a relationship, does he want to admit to a relationship with the trainer.

Agree.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 27, 2024, 04:59:20 PMIt sure seems like some kind of incident occurred, so there should be repercussions for Kelly's immature behaviour, even if it was just yelling.  If proven the trainer actually had an affair with another player, the Argos might be clear of the wrongful dismissal accusation as that would likely be a violation of her terms of employment.

What?

Why are we talking about people's personal lives here?

I went back and reread the article.. she rebuffed his advances for what it seems like a year, but he got violent and made threats after he discovered she may have had a relationship of some sort with another player instead of him?

That defines the situation a little better...  this is a classic situation we see in toddlers playing... one decides if he can't play with the toy, no one can... I hate making such a derivative comment, but it is a disorder we see often. Until someone else managed to engage her, his ego was not challenged.  Once t was apparent that his alpha position was in doubt, he lashed out.

Should this be treated a less of a big deal because he just lashed out verbally, and did not physically assault her as he had threatened to?  I think we're at a point that the intent here was obvious and criminal, and needs to be treated as such. 

I have to wonder why the coach didn't think she had to act after the first or second advance.  Not laying blame, just suggesting the Argos need to make sure all staff know that even the hint at sexual misconduct needs to be addressed, even if it is just a misunderstanding.

With his history, like Manzeil in Hamilton, you'd think the organization would be on high alert to any potential issues.  The fact that it got to this level means someone dropped the ball.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 27, 2024, 04:59:20 PMIt sure seems like some kind of incident occurred, so there should be repercussions for Kelly's immature behaviour, even if it was just yelling.

Verbal abuse is still abuse - even more so in a work environment where traits like professionalism and respect are paramount.

Kelly's track record of questionable behaviour should speak volumes here; he comes across as immature, entitled, and most of all, incorrigible.

Wonder if this was the coach...

https://www.seewhatshecando.com/discover/dana-beattie-on-becoming-the-first-woman-assistant-strength-coach-for-the-toronto-argos

She doesn't seem to be on the staff now...

simple google search "2020 toronto argos strength and conditioning" - 5th entry

I know it sounds like Kelly was a petulant *****, but you all realize that we've only heard one side of the story, right? 

Quote from: TBURGESS on February 27, 2024, 08:04:29 PMI know it sounds like Kelly was a petulant *****, but you all realize that we've only heard one side of the story, right?

I wonder why??

Quote from: TBURGESS on February 27, 2024, 08:04:29 PMI know it sounds like Kelly was a petulant *****, but you all realize that we've only heard one side of the story, right?

Mr. Irrelevant has a track record of being a petulant manchild.

Quote from: theaardvark on February 27, 2024, 06:42:17 PMI went back and reread the article.. she rebuffed his advances for what it seems like a year, but he got violent and made threats after he discovered she may have had a relationship of some sort with another player instead of him?

The relationship with another player accusation just seems like classic stalking behavior to me. I would be surprised it even happened anywhere other than Chad Kelly's mind. A professional just wouldn't. The whole thing just seems border line criminal stalking. Criminal harassment is the name of the law in this province.

Quote from: Jesse on February 27, 2024, 05:16:07 PMWhat?

Why are we talking about people's personal lives here?

It's not uncommon for organizations to have non-fraternization policies in place to restrict relationships between employees from developing, the days of Mad Men are long gone. Hard to say if the Argos would even think of implementing such a policy with so few females on staff, but employee contracts might fall under the window of broader MLSE policies, so who knows.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on February 27, 2024, 08:51:43 PMMr. Irrelevant has a track record of being a petulant manchild.

But he is right. We need to hear the rest of the story.

Quote from: ModAdmin on February 27, 2024, 09:42:21 PMBut he is right. We need to hear the rest of the story.

Oh for sure, well, have at er Chadwick, tell us your side of the story!!! We won't hear anything out of his camp as he's a guilty as sin

Quote from: ModAdmin on February 27, 2024, 09:42:21 PMBut he is right. We need to hear the rest of the story.

I'm not too sure we do need to hear "the rest of the story" or "the other side of the story". 

This is an event that there aren't two sides to, really.  Its been pretty clearly laid out.  He did things he's not supposed to do.  There are no explanations that will justify his behaviour.

Anything short of a Mea Culpa and a full apology from him, and the Argos settling with her is one of those "slap in the face" situations. 

I'm pretty sure "the rest of the story" only makes him look worse...  best to get this out of the way, now.  For him, the Argos and the league.

Quote from: theaardvark on February 27, 2024, 06:42:17 PMI went back and reread the article.. she rebuffed his advances for what it seems like a year, but he got violent and made threats after he discovered she may have had a relationship of some sort with another player instead of him?
[...]
Should this be treated a less of a big deal because he just lashed out verbally, and did not physically assault her as he had threatened to?  I think we're at a point that the intent here was obvious and criminal, and needs to be treated as such. 

Don't fall for the modern trap of conflating violence and speech.  Speech can never be violence, otherwise the word "violence" has no meaning.  We cannot say he "got violent" because there has been zero allegations of unwanted physical contact.

So, yes, it is less of a big deal because he didn't whack her.  If he had whacked her, we wouldn't be having this conversation: he'd be suspended 3 games or fired, pay huge restitution and fines, and have to deal with a criminal trial.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on February 27, 2024, 06:49:19 PMVerbal abuse is still abuse - even more so in a work environment where traits like professionalism and respect are paramount.

Yes, verbal abuse is verbal abuse.  Physical abuse is physical abuse.  And there are other kinds of abuses, but they are all distinct entities that should not be conflated.

We don't need to try to make it sound worse than it is, because it's already "bad enough" to force various entities to go into full damage control mode.  No matter Kelly is forced (or wants) to do, he's put a big (additional) stain on his career, and made himself less employable/desirable.  This could also spell reduced future earnings.  In the worst case (for him), he's prematurely kicked out of football for good.

It's all so stupid.  You can tell when someone is not open to advances and any sane person nowadays backs off.  Plenty of fish, Kelly.  Maybe there's actually something wrong with his brain.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on February 27, 2024, 08:51:43 PMMr. Irrelevant has a track record of being a petulant manchild.

Yes, his Manziel-esque past taints how people view him.  He had to be twice as much the boy-scout as the next guy to stay peachy in the public eye, and instead he goes into full DB mode.  Maybe he has FAS or something, seriously.  It seems like he has self control issues.

In the TSN featurette his NFL uncle said he did a lot of tough love to help straighten Kelly out.  Well, get on a plane up to TOR, because Kelly apparently needs some mega-tough love again.

Quote from: Waffler on February 27, 2024, 08:54:59 PMThe relationship with another player accusation just seems like classic stalking behavior to me. I would be surprised it even happened anywhere other than Chad Kelly's mind. A professional just wouldn't. The whole thing just seems border line criminal stalking. Criminal harassment is the name of the law in this province.

You may be required to get a court order or at least serve notice on the "stalker" before it can become a criminal matter.  But I do agree that her description in the article did sound stalker-ish.  But there's no indication she went to the police.

What I find disconcerting is that when she went to her boss(es) they weren't able to put a stop to it.  It's bad enough DB Kelly was behaving very poorly and didn't stop, it's another when his bosses didn't/couldn't reign him in.  It's actually mind boggling.

Like: "Hey Kelly you need to back off and stay away from her."  "Nah, I'm going to publicly berate her on a bus."

Very bizarre.

Quote from: Jesse on February 27, 2024, 05:16:07 PMWhy are we talking about people's personal lives here?

On the main gist regarding Kelly, he made his personal life public when he brought his feud public by saying things front of all the players.  He was too dumb to just wait to say things to her when no one was around, or, ideally, just take the hint and leave her alone.

As for possible affairs between her and other players, I suppose that isn't private anymore because a) the team probably has rules against that, and b) it is a line of defense that Kelly could possibly use to attack her credibility in any court/mediation situation.  If you're going to open a public can of worms, you should try to make sure your nose is squeaky clean first, otherwise the counter-suit is a bleep.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on February 28, 2024, 12:11:18 AMYou may be required to get a court order or at least serve notice on the "stalker" before it can become a criminal matter.  But I do agree that her description in the article did sound stalker-ish.  But there's no indication she went to the police.

What I find disconcerting is that when she went to her boss(es) they weren't able to put a stop to it.  It's bad enough DB Kelly was behaving very poorly and didn't stop, it's another when his bosses didn't/couldn't reign him in.  It's actually mind boggling.

Like: "Hey Kelly you need to back off and stay away from her."  "Nah, I'm going to publicly berate her on a bus."

Very bizarre.

She made the mistake of going to John Murphy instead of Pinball or Dinwiddie with her concerns, frankly anyone else other than Murphy would have handled this better.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 28, 2024, 01:27:43 AMShe made the mistake of going to John Murphy instead of Pinball or Dinwiddie with her concerns, frankly anyone else other than Murphy would have handled this better.

Ya, that's very odd in and of itself.  Was Murphy her direct supervisor?  If I was her I'd have gone straight to Pinball.  He wouldn't stand for those kind of optics.

Quote from: ModAdmin on February 27, 2024, 09:42:21 PMBut he is right. We need to hear the rest of the story.

Absolutely. But what's been alleged so far doesn't paint a flattering picture for a QB with a tainted past and the organization who currently employs him, including Murphy who also has a tainted past.

It's been nearly a week since this came to light and there hasn't so much as a whisper from MLSE or the Argonauts. It's a pretty bad look for a team that struggles with its off-field imaging as it is.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on February 28, 2024, 01:39:28 PMAbsolutely. But what's been alleged so far doesn't paint a flattering picture for a QB with a tainted past and the organization who currently employs him, including Murphy who also has a tainted past.

It's been nearly a week since this came to light and there hasn't so much as a whisper from MLSE or the Argonauts. It's a pretty bad look for a team that struggles with its off-field imaging as it is.

Agree it looks very bad for Kelly and the Argo organization. They know exactly what happened and are keeping quiet which is a poor strategy.

Quote from: ModAdmin on February 28, 2024, 05:23:16 PMAgree it looks very bad for Kelly and the Argo organization. They know exactly what happened and are keeping quiet which is a poor strategy.

On the other hand, they're handling this case appropriately by not engaging the media and dealing with it within the legal system.  After the matter is resolved, they'll release a conclusion.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 28, 2024, 05:36:13 PMOn the other hand, they're handling this case appropriately by not engaging the media and dealing with it within the legal system.  After the matter is resolved, they'll release a conclusion.

I understand that too.  But the optics look terrible when know exactly what transpired and they say nothing.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 28, 2024, 05:36:13 PMOn the other hand, they're handling this case appropriately by not engaging the media and dealing with it within the legal system.  After the matter is resolved, they'll release a conclusion.

Even a simple press release along the lines of "MLSE and the Argonauts take this matter seriously and will cooperate with investigators to ensure justice is upheld" or what have you could go a long way in reassuring the public and showing they care.

I don't know that complete radio silence in light of such serious allegations comes across as appropriate.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on February 28, 2024, 04:56:23 AMYa, that's very odd in and of itself.  Was Murphy her direct supervisor?  If I was her I'd have gone straight to Pinball.  He wouldn't stand for those kind of optics.

I am not sure what Pinball does there anymore. It doesn't seem a Pinball team, more like a Murphy team, and it was reported by Jeff Hamilton (in by far the best article I have seen about this subject) that Murphy is the defacto GM there.

"Murphy has the reputation of being a strong talent evaluator but is hardly adored by the players. He's also the de facto GM, but because of his embarrassing actions of the past, it's Mike "Pinball" Clemons who holds the official title."

Quote from: ModAdmin on February 28, 2024, 05:43:48 PMI understand that too.  But the optics look terrible when know exactly what transpired and they say nothing.

We only know what the media told us, certainly doesn't mean it's factual.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 28, 2024, 06:27:18 PMWe only know what the media told us, certainly doesn't mean it's factual.

You should give Rick Westhead more credit; he's highly respected for his journalism.

Don't spin this into some "media bad" nonsense.

The concerning paragraphs of the article are:

"The coach alleges that the Argos condoned Kelly's harassment and a toxic work environment and that the team breached the CFL violence against women policy by not submitting a critical incident report to the league's head office.

"[The plaintiff] reported the harassment she was experiencing from Chad to her superiors," the coach's lawsuit says. "[The] Argonauts failed to address [her] legitimate concerns and then terminated her employment."

The fact she says they "condoned" his actions really puts the onus on the Argos to prove otherwise, and based on the lack of defence so far, you have to wonder if they didn't...

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 28, 2024, 06:27:18 PMWe only know what the media told us, certainly doesn't mean it's factual.

Yes, the media put something out there on this alleged issue and the team/league need to deal with a response.

Bad look on the league and Argos for going radio silent.  Step up Pinball.

We only know one side of the story. We don't have any corroboration that says it's true or that it's false, yet most who have read the one sided story have already made up their minds that the plaintiff is in the right, which may or may not be true. 

I suspect that the Argos legal team has instructed them to shut up and to not try this case in the press. There is no way for them to come out looking good, especially as most folks have already made up their minds about it. 

https://www.cfl.ca/2024/02/28/cfl-issues-statement-regarding-the-toronto-argonauts-and-chad-kelly/

Quote from: VictorRomano on February 28, 2024, 09:14:35 PMhttps://www.cfl.ca/2024/02/28/cfl-issues-statement-regarding-the-toronto-argonauts-and-chad-kelly/

"Out of respect for this process and all the parties involved, we will not be able to provide further comment until our investigation has been completed."

Everybody happy now?

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 28, 2024, 09:34:12 PM"Out of respect for this process and all the parties involved, we will not be able to provide further comment until our investigation has been completed."

Everybody happy now?

Yup.. watching with patience and interest.

Quote from: TBURGESS on February 28, 2024, 08:52:34 PMWe only know one side of the story. We don't have any corroboration that says it's true or that it's false, yet most who have read the one sided story have already made up their minds that the plaintiff is in the right, which may or may not be true.

True.  But there is one aspect you can be pretty sure is truthful: whatever was said to her on the bus in front of many players.  That can be corroborated by many different people and is pretty cut and dried.  If she was outright lying and what he said on the bus is a nothingburger, then all those players would have already corrected the record.  Likewise, the players should come out and corroborate her account if it is the truth.

It's the stuff that supposedly happened in private that you may have to take with a grain of salt, since Kelly does get a chance to defend himself.

That's why people then fallback to using prior history to help pick a side, and Kelly's past is pretty sordid.  Getting kicked out of the NFL isn't a good look.  And that's why the rumours of the lady maybe having relationships with other players also makes her look less credible.

Maybe the whole TOR locker room is one big gong show and both parties are full of it.  Who knows at this point.

Now that the CFL has started an investigation, it will be interesting to see how the Argos co-operate.  If the allegations bear out, with his history, does Chad get severe discipline?  Can the league afford to suspend or even ban its highest paid player, who is the key to the success of the team with the largest potential fanbase?

I really feel for poor Pinball, caught in the middle of this.  But it was his decision to hire Murphy.

If the Argos settle this and the allegation goes away with an NDA, (probably the smartest thing the Argos could do, and should have done), does Kelly get away scott free?  Or can he still face discipline from the league?

Farhan Lalji
@FarhanLaljiTSN
Expect the @CFL to launch its own investigation into the Chad Kelly situation.
Kelly is at the center of a wrongful dismissal lawsuit by a former #Argos employee, which suggests that he harassed her when she rejected his advances.
Commissioner Randy Ambrose will be in Vancouver on Thursday for a #GreyCup announcement. @SportsCentre

Quote from: theaardvark on February 28, 2024, 11:21:42 PMIf the Argos settle this and the allegation goes away with an NDA, (probably the smartest thing the Argos could do, and should have done), does Kelly get away scott free?  Or can he still face discipline from the league?

I would think the league can do whatever it wants within reason, precedent, and the CFL CBA.  They want the optics of clamping down hard, but also want to preserve the on-screen product by having talented players.  I don't envy their situation.  They must be cursing the dolts that cause this grief.

Can anyone remember the last time a CFL player was in trouble for harassment?  However it was handled then is likely how it will be handled now.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on February 29, 2024, 12:50:21 AMI would think the league can do whatever it wants within reason, precedent, and the CFL CBA.  They want the optics of clamping down hard, but also want to preserve the on-screen product by having talented players.  I don't envy their situation.  They must be cursing the dolts that cause this grief.

Can anyone remember the last time a CFL player was in trouble for harassment?  However it was handled then is likely how it will be handled now.

Teague Sherman and Jerome Messam both had their CFL contracts terminated for sexual harassment of some sort. Much more serious offences than Kelly committed though.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 29, 2024, 02:15:18 AMTeague Sherman and Jerome Messam both had their CFL contracts terminated for sexual harassment of some sort. Much more serious offences than Kelly committed though.

But neither of those were incidents involving the team, or its personnel.  Sherman committed sexual assault on women he met in a bar, and Messam was convicted of voyeurism against a woman he went home with. 

The issue with Kelly is that it not only involves him, but also the team, and the accusation is that the team was complicit in the act, the coverup and dismissal. 

Its not just Kelly on the hot seat, but also the team.

I'm liking Kelly less and less by the minute and that goes for the Argo organization as well.....unsavoury business

Quote from: theaardvark on February 29, 2024, 03:20:33 AMBut neither of those were incidents involving the team, or its personnel.  Sherman committed sexual assault on women he met in a bar, and Messam was convicted of voyeurism against a woman he went home with. 

Both of which are actual crimes, invoking the criminal code.  (Well, voyeurism is illegal in some jurisdictions, not in others; but I'll assume his was illegal.)

Even the worst parts of the accuser's story in the Kelly case don't reach criminality.

So I guess we're in slightly new territory here, vis a vis CFL precedent.  So that allows Ambrosie to decide how hard the hammer will fall.

Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on February 29, 2024, 04:59:51 AMI'm liking Kelly less and less by the minute and that goes for the Argo organization as well.....unsavory business

Ya, any pro sports figure has to be "squeaky clean"er than joe blow.  And any sports figure with the bad history that Kelly has needs to be near-puritanical.  I just don't understand why people in these positions blow it so badly sometimes.  I'm sure most here are like myself just shaking their heads wondering how on earth someone can be so dumb.

Of course, our team is not without fault (cough Kenny cough), but we do seem to keep our players' noses cleaner than many other teams.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 28, 2024, 09:34:12 PM"Out of respect for this process and all the parties involved, we will not be able to provide further comment until our investigation has been completed."

Everybody happy now?

(https://y.yarn.co/70aa1147-dbdd-437e-ad5f-86f3c410fd2b_text.gif)

It was a bare minimum expectation.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on February 28, 2024, 10:27:48 PMTrue.  But there is one aspect you can be pretty sure is truthful: whatever was said to her on the bus in front of many players.  That can be corroborated by many different people and is pretty cut and dried.  If she was outright lying and what he said on the bus is a nothingburger, then all those players would have already corrected the record.  Likewise, the players should come out and corroborate her account if it is the truth...

That should be the easiest part of the claim to corroborate, but it hasn't happened yet. Lets say it's true, is that enough to prove wrongful dismissal? Nope. Harrasment? Yup. 

Quote from: ModAdmin on February 28, 2024, 11:30:32 PMFarhan Lalji
@FarhanLaljiTSN
Expect the @CFL to launch its own investigation into the Chad Kelly situation.
Kelly is at the center of a wrongful dismissal lawsuit by a former #Argos employee, which suggests that he harassed her when she rejected his advances.
Commissioner Randy Ambrose will be in Vancouver on Thursday for a #GreyCup announcement. @SportsCentre

Being a barebones organization what capability does the CFL have to investigate anything properly, not like they have security or a team of investigators on staff waiting around for something to happen.

I think this announcement is mostly wind, the CFL should keep silent until the legal process is complete, than tack on their conclusion and/or suspension at the end of it all based on the legal findings. If they draw their own conclusion before the process is complete, they'll just come off looking dumb.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 29, 2024, 03:31:20 PMthe CFL should keep silent until the legal process is complete

If they do that, it just makes it easy for the Argos to drag out the case as long as they can. I prefer the CFL to know what's going on behind closed doors in TO if that is possible. The CFL does promote female hires and we just lost one of the few we had, in the media center of the league no less. And why? Because a baby brained QB can't take no?

Also if they settle out of court with the usual gag order, you never have an admission of guilt or any details of what happened.

Quote from: Waffler on February 29, 2024, 03:53:17 PMAlso if they settle out of court with the usual gag order, you never have an admission of guilt or any details of what happened.

Yah, that's the smartest option.

Guys that do stupid things outside team activities can get their contracts voided if they break the conduct clauses.  We see this with impaired driving and getting busted for weed cookies, etc.  As well as criminal sexual assault issues.  There are many disqualifying acts outside the team purview.

The difference maker here is that it seems to have been handled internally, but not in a good way.  Kelly's acts were outside appropriate, especially in a league that had been championing safe space and fight violence against women.

Sexual harassment of the type claimed in this action is not the same as rape, but the victim is still the victim, and the perpetrator is still the abuser.  The fact that it sounds like Murphy brushed it off, that Kelly was allowed to continue his abuse, and that ultimately the victim was not renewed on contract (which she will have to prove in a court of law was not related to performance), is the key.

The Argos should have stepped up immediately.  Because they didn't, the league will be forced to act stronger in this case, and should the coach prevail in court, it could escalate even higher.

Sweeping it under the rug is wrong, you don't fix issues by hiding them.  The Argos tried to do that without even making an effort to protect the player or the coach.  If Kelly issued an apology, it the Argos paid out the coach the less than a couple hundred grand she is claiming in the suit, and Kelly and Murphy went to sensitivity training, this is not more than a one day story.  Instead it becomes a league wide disgrace and black eye for the CFL, and is only going to get worse as each day goes by, and idiots like me cling to it.

Quote from: theaardvark on February 29, 2024, 05:03:51 PMGuys that do stupid things outside team activities can get their contracts voided if they break the conduct clauses.  We see this with impaired driving and getting busted for weed cookies, etc.  As well as criminal sexual assault issues.  There are many disqualifying acts outside the team purview.

The difference maker here is that it seems to have been handled internally, but not in a good way.  Kelly's acts were outside appropriate, especially in a league that had been championing safe space and fight violence against women.

Sexual harassment of the type claimed in this action is not the same as rape, but the victim is still the victim, and the perpetrator is still the abuser.  The fact that it sounds like Murphy brushed it off, that Kelly was allowed to continue his abuse, and that ultimately the victim was not renewed on contract (which she will have to prove in a court of law was not related to performance), is the key.

The Argos should have stepped up immediately.  Because they didn't, the league will be forced to act stronger in this case, and should the coach prevail in court, it could escalate even higher.

Sweeping it under the rug is wrong, you don't fix issues by hiding them.  The Argos tried to do that without even making an effort to protect the player or the coach.  If Kelly issued an apology, it the Argos paid out the coach the less than a couple hundred grand she is claiming in the suit, and Kelly and Murphy went to sensitivity training, this is not more than a one day story.  Instead it becomes a league wide disgrace and black eye for the CFL, and is only going to get worse as each day goes by, and idiots like me cling to it.

Indeed this is a disgrace to the league and CFL as a whole. I used to feel sorry for the Argos, playing in a big city and nobody cares enough to come out and watch your games, I doubt anyone in the big smoke even cares about this issue, but the rest of the league sure does, and folks won't forget this or sweep this under the carpet. I used to feel sorry for them, now I despise them.

It's important too to understand this is a behavior pattern for Kelly going back to 2012. The current issue is not a one off.

Kelly denies the allegations: https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/argos-quarterback-kelly-denies-harassment-allegations-made-by-former-team-employee-1.2083172

Well, there you go.  P.S. A "statement of claim" is just how you start a civil suit (i.e. a lawsuit).  None of this is pointing to any criminal court proceedings.  It is just someone saying they feel wronged and seek compensation.  I think her stronger case (and maybe the core of it) is her attack on the Argos, as "wrongful dismissal", especially if on the basis of a "protected class" (i.e. gender), is treated favorably by modern courts.

Maybe it's not as bad as her original claim, because if it was remotely that bad everyone and his dog would be telling him to settle and sweep it all under the rug.  In fact, even people who are 100% innocent will often take that route just to make it "go away" for a relative pittance (to the deep pocket Argos & Kelly).  The only way you fight this is if you have a strong case (witnesses & evidence), a la Johnny Depp.

Now nothing will be done about this for a year or more, as this stuff now goes to the lawyers and a ton of papers flying back and forth.  That effectively spares Kelly any CFL discipline for that time period and we all get to waste time speculating ad nauseam... or get sick of it real fast.

I think for Kelly to say this he must be coordinating with the Argos who also intend to fight vigorously, and who also feel they have counter-evidence or character-destroying evidence (like other possible in-house affairs).  I'd be more interested in reading their response filings.  The beauty of all of this is, it's all public record and any enterprising journalist can track down every filing and make it public.

To me the big BIG question is how bad is the stuff he said to her in front of all the players, because that will be incontrovertible.  If that is a nothingburger, then her case may be in trouble.  Her claim made the in-public verbiage sound really bad.  There's a difference between being a goofball and actually harassing or berating someone.  All of it may be bad form and unwarranted and I'm not excusing it at all... but have you heard any of the stuff these players and other coaches say among themselves on bus trips, etc?  You can't have thin skin in that kind of environment.

In an ironic way, this may hurt the chances for women wanting to be hired for such roles.  I'm not saying this is right, nor condoning it, so don't shoot the messenger, but GMs will look at this and think "I don't get these headaches if I just hire a dude".  So for the alleged victim's sake, I hope she's 100% right and wins big time, otherwise she's only helping to set the CFL "back" in this regard.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on March 01, 2024, 06:03:03 PMKelly denies the allegations: https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/argos-quarterback-kelly-denies-harassment-allegations-made-by-former-team-employee-1.2083172

Unless Kelly made this statement on his own (which would be incredibly dumb), the Argos might be lawyering up for a fight to try and defend their reputation.  If that's the case I don't like the ladies chances, justice being what it is, the poorer party rarely comes out on top. 

Hard to believe a settlement wasn't reached quickly, perhaps the Argos offered and she declined, choosing instead to stand firm on principle.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on March 02, 2024, 05:24:59 AMUnless Kelly made this statement on his own (which would be incredibly dumb), the Argos might be lawyering up for a fight to try and defend their reputation.  If that's the case I don't like the ladies chances, justice being what it is, the poorer party rarely comes out on top. 

Hard to believe a settlement wasn't reached quickly, perhaps the Argos offered and she declined, choosing instead to stand firm on principle.

Her suit is tiny, probably a small portion of what the Argos will spend on lawyers.  FOr her and her lawyers to continue, they must believe they have a pretty solid case... and a point to prove.  Who knows if other female staff might come forward...

Quote from: theaardvark on March 02, 2024, 03:12:22 PMHer suit is tiny, probably a small portion of what the Argos will spend on lawyers.  FOr her and her lawyers to continue, they must believe they have a pretty solid case... and a point to prove.  Who knows if other female staff might come forward...

With the potential publicity of this case, I think it's ripe for a large well organized women's group such as the National Association of Women and the Law to get behind, they might even pick up the legal tab or offer free use of their lawyers if they see it as a significant battle.

I don't believe a word Kelly says. He's got a strange aura to him and absolutely freaky Charles Manson like eyes. He's one strange cat

[color=var(--td_theme_color, #4db2ec)]According to a report from TSN's Rick Westhead (https://3downnation.com/2024/02/22/former-coach-sues-toronto-argonauts-qb-chad-kelly-for-wrongful-termination-harassment/)[/url], a former strength and conditioning coach is suing the Argos for alleged wrongful dismissal and Kelly for alleged harassment during the 2022 and 2023 seasons.[/font][/size][/color]
The plaintiff is seeking $295,603 from the Argonauts and $50,000 from Kelly. She claims the Argos breached the CFL's violence against women policy by not submitting a critical incident report to the league's head office.
From: https://3downnation.com/2024/03/01/toronto-argos-qb-chad-kelly-denies-harassment-allegations-seeks-dismissal/

Not sure I'd classify that as a tiny suit. 

I don't think the CFL wants to have this mess hanging around, especially with the appointment of a 'special investigator'....The league will want a quick resolution to this matter and the quicker this gets aired the better....IF this ends up being a proven harrassment,wrongful dismissal case, there is going to be a few heads roll in T.O.

There is a discrepancy with the amount the Argos are being sued for. The earlier TSN article says $85,714, then this latter article says $295,603. So not sure what the actual figure is, or the figure was upped after seeing the publicity this was generating! Both articles consistent with the $50,000 against Kelly.


https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/rick-westhead-argos-qb-kelly-accused-of-harassment-in-wrongful-dismissal-lawsuit-1.2079719

https://3downnation.com/2024/03/01/toronto-argos-qb-chad-kelly-denies-harassment-allegations-seeks-dismissal/

Quote from: dd on March 02, 2024, 05:14:14 PMI don't believe a word Kelly says. He's got a strange aura to him and absolutely freaky Charles Manson like eyes. He's one strange cat

Just like OJ is still looking for the real killers! 30 years later, still nadda.

Quote from: TBURGESS on March 02, 2024, 05:22:21 PM[color=var(--td_theme_color, #4db2ec)]According to a report from TSN's Rick Westhead (https://3downnation.com/2024/02/22/former-coach-sues-toronto-argonauts-qb-chad-kelly-for-wrongful-termination-harassment/)[/url], a former strength and conditioning coach is suing the Argos for alleged wrongful dismissal and Kelly for alleged harassment during the 2022 and 2023 seasons.[/font][/size][/color]
The plaintiff is seeking $295,603 from the Argonauts and $50,000 from Kelly. She claims the Argos breached the CFL's violence against women policy by not submitting a critical incident report to the league's head office.
From: https://3downnation.com/2024/03/01/toronto-argos-qb-chad-kelly-denies-harassment-allegations-seeks-dismissal/

Not sure I'd classify that as a tiny suit.

$350k is tiny.  Like I said, the bill for lawyers could be higher, especially if Kelly keeps denying and they bring in his history...

Quote from: ichabod_crane on March 02, 2024, 08:48:41 PMThere is a discrepancy with the amount the Argos are being sued for. The earlier TSN article says $85,714, then this latter article says $295,603. So not sure what the actual figure is, or the figure was upped after seeing the publicity this was generating! Both articles consistent with the $50,000 against Kelly.


https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/rick-westhead-argos-qb-kelly-accused-of-harassment-in-wrongful-dismissal-lawsuit-1.2079719

https://3downnation.com/2024/03/01/toronto-argos-qb-chad-kelly-denies-harassment-allegations-seeks-dismissal/

I think the extra is the "future earnings" part...

As much as I dislike him, I think we need to go with innocent until proven guilty!

The stakes are incredibly high.  There are witnesses. There is Kelly's reputation/history.  There is the CFL's stand on dealing with Violence Against Women.

John Murphy is already in "protection" mode.  Will the Argos wait for this to go through legal channels?  Quite frankly I don't think they can go into the upcoming season with this hanging over the team's head.

They have to start thinking about their position and action on the situation now.  Pretty sure they know what the full story is.

Quote from: ModAdmin on March 03, 2024, 05:44:10 PMThe stakes are incredibly high.  There are witnesses. There is Kelly's reputation/history.  There is the CFL's stand on dealing with Violence Against Women.

John Murphy is already in "protection" mode.  Will the Argos wait for this to go through legal channels?  Quite frankly I don't think they can go into the upcoming season with this hanging over the team's head.

They have to start thinking about their position and action on the situation now.  Pretty sure they know what the full story is.

There's usually two kinds of witnesses, cooperative and uncooperative, seeing as it's a team environment I'd be surprised if any of the players spoke freely against the Argos game plan.  If they don't have a game plan in place by now, they are in very deep ****.

there are however a number of players that are no longer with the argos after free agency, some of whom may not be enamored with not being resigned.
They will pretty much have to stick with the actual situation and determine the necessary consequences along with the league offices.

Quote from: Marni on March 03, 2024, 03:10:30 PMAs much as I dislike him, I think we need to go with innocent until proven guilty!

Ya that seemed to work out for OJ didn't it!!

Quote from: dd on March 03, 2024, 10:00:05 PMYa that seemed to work out for OJ didn't it!!

No glove involved here... and IIRC, he got off on the criminal charges, but was destroyed in civil court...

Quote from: theaardvark on March 04, 2024, 02:12:41 PMNo glove involved here... and IIRC, he got off on the criminal charges, but was destroyed in civil court...

Johnny Cochrane (or his Seinfeld impersonator): If the glove don't fit, you gotta acquit! :D

Interesting to see Nathan Rourke's opinion of the situation.. and he's right.

"Nathan Rourke@nathan_rourke

I'm disappointed with the lack of urgency expressed by both the @CFL and the @TorontoArgos
. This issue must be viewed with the utmost seriousness and concern for the truth. What example are we setting for boys and girls across Canada if we can't practice what we preach? #BeMORE"

The OJ references in this thread aged well

Quote from: theaardvark on April 16, 2024, 08:01:32 PM"Nathan Rourke@nathan_rourke

I'm disappointed with the lack of urgency expressed by both the @CFL and the @TorontoArgos

Do we have any sense on whether there will be some movement on the issue before the season starts?  I think closure would go better than keeping it up in the air all season long... even though the latter would be better for the Argos' W/L record.

That said, lawsuits of this size can easily go 1-2 years (plus), and that's perfectly normal.  We do have to remember that no crime is alleged; it's all civil and $$.  If it was criminal, it probably would have moved a bit more quickly.

It could be nothing happens until after the 2025 season.  The problem with that is it creates bad optics for Ambrosie.  Don't want to be in his shoes... he's in a pickle here.

At the very least, I hope people around and senior to Kelly are smacking him upside the head telling him to wise up.  Ambrosie should tell him to shape up or he gets the Marino treatment.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on April 17, 2024, 05:03:12 AMDo we have any sense on whether there will be some movement on the issue before the season starts?  I think closure would go better than keeping it up in the air all season long... even though the latter would be better for the Argos' W/L record.

That said, lawsuits of this size can easily go 1-2 years (plus), and that's perfectly normal.  We do have to remember that no crime is alleged; it's all civil and $$.  If it was criminal, it probably would have moved a bit more quickly.

It could be nothing happens until after the 2025 season.  The problem with that is it creates bad optics for Ambrosie.  Don't want to be in his shoes... he's in a pickle here.

At the very least, I hope people around and senior to Kelly are smacking him upside the head telling him to wise up.  Ambrosie should tell him to shape up or he gets the Marino treatment.

Can't blame the CFL or Ambrosie, the finger is pointed directly at MLSE management for not clearing this issue up and taking care of business in a timely manner, leaving it to linger and get blown way out of proportion.  Now we have Nathan Rourke, "Canada's favourite son" commenting on it!  :D

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 17, 2024, 03:35:00 PMCan't blame the CFL or Ambrosie, the finger is pointed directly at MLSE management for not clearing this issue up and taking care of business in a timely manner, leaving it to linger and get blown way out of proportion.  Now we have Nathan Rourke, "Canada's favourite son" commenting on it!  :D

Surely you jest.

The CFL and Ambroise can do a lot.

They can tell Pinball to get this settled.

The CFL can suspend Kelly pending its investigation (they have suspended other players with credible accusations).  Yes, someone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but from a contract standpoint, all it takes is a credible accusation to warrant action. 

In my opinion, the CFL has been far to lax in letting MLSE and their lawyers deal with this.  I almost think that the accuser would have been better served had she let the situation continue and/or involve law enforcement earlier.  Had he be allowed to take it to the next level, I am sure our whole outlook on this would change.

But the CFL is doing huge damage to the brand and its supposed stand on protecting women.

Either way this ends, the CFL is going to look bad.  If her claims are proven out, the Argos have failed miserably, and the CFL by association.  If Kelly is exonerated, there ill always be a doubt about whether the highest paid player in the league got away with this due to his stature (given his past and the credibility of the claim).
 
The CFL needs to get this behind it now, before the season starts and they have to deal with whether Kelly and/or the Argos can play.  Because this isn't just about Kelly, its about how the Argo's seem to have condoned and covered up for their star player.

Quote from: theaardvark on April 17, 2024, 05:00:50 PMThe CFL and Ambroise can do a lot.

They can tell Pinball to get this settled.

That's one thing - and it's not even an effective thing. What else?

They can tell Clemons and co. whatever they'd like, but that doesn't mean he or his bosses have to listen, much less act.

More bad optics don't help anyone, but I don't think it's reasonable to suggest the commissioner can influence an organization in a complex situation such as this one.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on April 17, 2024, 05:18:57 PMThat's one thing - and it's not even an effective thing. What else?

They can tell Clemons and co. whatever they'd like, but that doesn't mean he or his bosses have to listen, much less act.

More bad optics don't help anyone, but I don't think it's reasonable to suggest the commissioner can influence an organization in a complex situation such as this one.

When you are a franchisee, you do what the franchisor says.  That's the relationship.

Ambroise has all the cards here, and any franchise that is in default of the diversity issues can be held accountable.

Letting this drag through the courts, allowing Kelly to play, I can't see that being an option.  Not when others have been suspended pending outcome of investigations.

Their best option is for Kelly to apologize and the Argos to settle.  I imagine this is what will happen, with the "I'm sorry if she felt that I was acting inappropriately, it was not my intent." non-apology apology without admission of guilt.  The then the Argos pay off her claim for lost wages.

Simple really.  Again, as far as criminal charges, innocent until proven guilty is the law, for sure.  But this is contract and civil litigation, which is a whole different kettle of fish. 

Quote from: theaardvark on April 17, 2024, 06:33:17 PMWhen you are a franchisee, you do what the franchisor says.  That's the relationship.

Ambroise has all the cards here...

(https://media.tenor.com/43riVRFX3HMAAAAM/jennifer-lawrence-j-law.gif)

Just curious, was there any "innocent until proven guilty" talk in the Jalen Saunders incident? 

Nope.

Immediately cut upon allegations being made.

Tillman accused, immediately put on admin leave.


And, do we need to revisit this news release?

https://www.cfl.ca/2015/08/06/cfl-announces-violence-against-women-policy/

Quote from: theaardvark on April 17, 2024, 06:43:41 PMJust curious, was there any "innocent until proven guilty" talk in the Jalen Saunders incident? 

Nope.

Immediately cut upon allegations being made.

Did the commissioner influence the decision with Saunders' release in 2022, though? From what I can tell, the answer is no. The WFC made its own determination in-house at the time to get rid of him.

And good on the them; good riddance to garbage. But the comparison ends there and the same cannot be said for the Argonauts organization or its owner MLSE. On the contrary, they've seemingly all doubled down and have continued to defend Kelly's innocence or not comment at all. Optically, they're digging themselves into a pretty deep hole and it's not a good look for an already beleaguered franchise.

I'm just not sure what power you seem to think the commissioner can wield in such a situation to try and sway the parties involved. The league itself launched its own investigation some time ago, which should be the least of its efforts, but I think its collective hands are tied otherwise under such circumstances.

The league had a commitment... from that news release I linked.

"• When any CFL workplace, including a CFL football club or one of its corporate offices, receives a report of violence against women involving a CFL employee, we will act.

• We will assess the situation and future risk to the women in question, and engage when necessary local experts who will make up violence against women response teams (VAWR teams). These VAWR teams will be made up of social workers and other professionals with extensive experience in dealing with violence against women."

Pretty hard for the Argos to smooth this over and the longer the investigation takes the more it appears they are either trying to hope it disappears or they want to create an atmosphere that there is nothing to the story. It should not take this long to interview the affected parties and it has to have some effect on ticket sales as well.

Quote from: theaardvark on April 17, 2024, 08:37:22 PMThe league had a commitment... from that news release I linked.

"• When any CFL workplace, including a CFL football club or one of its corporate offices, receives a report of violence against women involving a CFL employee, we will act.

Ya, but that whole policy is about violence.  No violence is alleged in the Kelly case.  If it was it'd automatically be criminal anyhow.  And no, I don't subscribe to the (bad) theory that words are violence.

But yes, the optics are really bad.  Part of the problem is lack of transparency, to go along with the potentially years-long pre-trial paper battle.  It's ugly if Kelly is totally guilty yet gets to play for 2 years scot-free.  If we had some insight into the facts each side is presenting during this process, maybe we could make more informed decisions and statements.

AFAIK there is no "gag order" on this stuff from the court, so the sides are free to say whatever they wish.  However, outlandish or false or defamatory claims could hurt a party in court.  It's usually best to clam up, and that's what they are doing.

The statements of claim are still public record, though, and someone in the jurisdiction (or with good net skillz) could possibly come up with the details!  Homework!  I'd love to see Kelly's side of the story.

We do have to consider the possibility, however remote, that the litigant is crazy, or malicious, or whatever.  Remember that baseball player?  If you wanted to get money out of a CFL player, picking Kelly is the smartest move, because most will be biased by his sordid history.  If that is clearly and provably the case, you really don't want to just pay out and take the L, because then you are inviting myriad copycats in the future.  That would cause the CFL gobs more grief.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on April 18, 2024, 07:55:20 AMWe do have to consider the possibility, however remote, that the litigant is crazy, or malicious, or whatever. 

This is called blaming the victim. The trainer worked for the Argos since 2018, they must have been happy enough to keep bringing her back. All we have have against the trainer is wild speculation, what we have against Kelly is evidence. example:

"On Nov. 10, 2023, [the coach] learned that Chad had made a threatening remark, suggesting she was fortunate he hadn't physically harmed her," the lawsuit says.

"Despite [her] supervisor witnessing parts of the incident and [the coach] reporting the ongoing harassment, the Argonauts failed to take any action to address the situation, leaving [her] in a distressing and unsupported position within the team."

Sure, keep an open mind if you want but blaming the victim is why more don't come forward.

Quote from: Waffler on April 18, 2024, 01:15:54 PMThis is called blaming the victim. The trainer worked for the Argos since 2018, they must have been happy enough to keep bringing her back. All we have have against the trainer is wild speculation, what we have against Kelly is evidence. example:

"On Nov. 10, 2023, [the coach] learned that Chad had made a threatening remark, suggesting she was fortunate he hadn't physically harmed her," the lawsuit says.

"Despite [her] supervisor witnessing parts of the incident and [the coach] reporting the ongoing harassment, the Argonauts failed to take any action to address the situation, leaving [her] in a distressing and unsupported position within the team."

Sure, keep an open mind if you want but blaming the victim is why more don't come forward.

That's the claim. It hasn't been presented in a court under oath, so it's not evidence yet. 

Pretty heinous allegations (https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/former-toronto-argonauts-coach-details-chad-kelly-s-alleged-harassment-in-amended-lawsuit-1.2102604) all the same, IMO.

Kelly's history over the last decade doesn't help his cause, either.

The one thing I'm curious about is whether these allegations against Kelly came out only after her contract was not renewed by the Argos.  Could be the case of a disgruntled worker disparaging a former employer in any way she could, which isn't that uncommon.  She was hired on a yearly renewable contract, so the Argos are not required to offer any explanation or reason for not renewing her contract, it's their prerogative.  Just because they renewed it multiple times before doesn't mean they have to continue that trend.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 18, 2024, 03:13:00 PMThe one thing I'm curious about is whether these allegations against Kelly came out only after her contract was not renewed by the Argos.  Could be the case of a disgruntled worker disparaging a former employer in any way she could, which isn't that uncommon.  She was hired on a yearly renewable contract, so the Argos are not required to offer any explanation or reason for not renewing her contract, it's their prerogative.  Just because they renewed it multiple times before doesn't mean they have to continue that trend.

According to this article (https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/rick-westhead-argos-qb-kelly-accused-of-harassment-in-wrongful-dismissal-lawsuit-1.2079719), she said she was informed on Jan. 29th that her contract wouldn't be renewed.

The timeline in the article makes it sound like she attempted to notify her superiors back in early November about the situation. However, nothing was done to address it, much less try and resolve it. Hardly surprising with John Murphy being involved.

This whole ugly thing seems to go well beyond simply being a case of a disgruntled and/or vindictive employee.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 18, 2024, 03:13:00 PMThe one thing I'm curious about is whether these allegations against Kelly came out only after her contract was not renewed by the Argos.  Could be the case of a disgruntled worker disparaging a former employer in any way she could, which isn't that uncommon.  She was hired on a yearly renewable contract, so the Argos are not required to offer any explanation or reason for not renewing her contract, it's their prerogative.  Just because they renewed it multiple times before doesn't mean they have to continue that trend.

Very careful, such a suggestion can be seen as disparaging the victim.

No doubt, the non renewal of the contract may have something to do with going forward.  The complaint was made before she was informed she would not be renewed. One could also question whether her dismissal was done to cover the allegations up?

Was she willing to put it aside as "boys will be boys" while she was getting paid by the Argos?  I recall hearing that Kelly was segregated from her after the incident to prevent further incident. She had made a report of the issue, so I assume she was not accepting of the behaviour.  He has a history as well that makes the claim more credible, and if a superior witnessed part of the incident and no action had been taken before her dismissal, I'd be PO'd too.

Quote from: ModAdmin on April 17, 2024, 08:39:56 PMPretty hard for the Argos to smooth this over and the longer the investigation takes the more it appears they are either trying to hope it disappears or they want to create an atmosphere that there is nothing to the story. It should not take this long interview the affected parties and it has to have some effect on ticket sales as well.

I don't think the Argos have ticket sales to affect!! I hear what you're saying though. In a smaller market like Winnipeg or Regina, where their fans have morals and values, they'd be fall out from this. But in the big smoke, sadly I doubt anyone knows or cares

Quote from: TBURGESS on April 18, 2024, 02:40:12 PMThat's the claim. It hasn't been presented in a court under oath, so it's not evidence yet.

In a court of law, under oath, you are 100% correct.  The court of public opinion is different.  The longer this draws out with no comment or resolution, the worse it's going to get for the Argos and, perhaps, the league.  I have to believe, internally, the Argos have all the details they need to come to a decision.  The question is, what will be their strategy going forward.  And the pressure will continue to be on them the closer we get to the start of the 2024 season.

one could argue that the Argos have the information and have made a decision: that the charges are not substantiated, and they will contest them in the courts.
 I am curious however as to why none of his teammates, that I have heard , have come to his defense, which to me speaks volumnes.

Quote from: ModAdmin on April 19, 2024, 12:17:59 AMIn a court of law, under oath, you are 100% correct.  The court of public opinion is different.  The longer this draws out with no comment or resolution, the worse it's going to get for the Argos and, perhaps, the league.  I have to believe, internally, the Argos have all the details they need to come to a decision.  The question is, what will be their strategy going forward.  And the pressure will continue to be on them the closer we get to the start of the 2024 season.

Only two options remain, either the Argos have the situation completely under control, or they're about to massively flub up just in time for the season to get rolling.  Hard to believe they wouldn't do everything to avoid the second scenario at this point.

Quote from: Waffler on April 18, 2024, 01:15:54 PMThis is called blaming the victim.

Sure, keep an open mind if you want but blaming the victim is why more don't come forward.

Of course I'll keep an open mind.  But looking at all possibilities seem like a fair thing to do.  Most are so quick to condemn Kelly as guilty or to just pay up, so how is saying sometimes these things turn out to be a lie or setup unfair?  Why is one ok yet the gets its own negative-sounding label?

Hey, I'm definitely in the Kelly's-a-creep and probably-did-it camp, but there is the (however remote) possibility it's all a $ grab.

Will you equally condemn the accuser if it turns out it's a big lie or hoax?  Many times when that is the outcome the story just quietly goes away, perhaps after leaving a life in shambles.

Right now it's she-said he-said.  That's literally all we have to go on.  That's the problem many of us are speaking to... it's not good to leave everyone hanging like this.  Imaginations can run wild.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 19, 2024, 03:18:00 AMOnly two options remain, either the Argos have the situation completely under control, or they're about to massively flub it up just in time for the season to get rolling.  Hard to believe they wouldn't do everything to avoid the second scenario at this point.

Yes, the longer this draws out the more likely the outcome is that Kelly will win the case.  Because if there was damning evidence then all parties just pay the ask$ to make it all go away.  $50k pittance from Kelly and $250k outside the sms for the Argos?  Chump change.  Ambrosie being quiet also hints at this: Argos may have shown him evidence (witnesses, texts, emails) that it's phony.

Why fight it and keep it in the public eye if her case is rock solid?  There is nothing to gain.  At the end they'd have to pay her her ask, plus $50k legal fees.  Imagine the optics for them if that happens?  They're out the money and look like big meanies and abusers.  Who would risk that unless they were sure they'd win?

Kelly may be dumb, but the Argos lawyer team is not, I assure you.

Quote from: ModAdmin on April 19, 2024, 12:17:59 AMIn a court of law, under oath, you are 100% correct.  The court of public opinion is different.  The longer this draws out with no comment or resolution, the worse it's going to get for the Argos and, perhaps, the league.  I have to believe, internally, the Argos have all the details they need to come to a decision.  The question is, what will be their strategy going forward.  And the pressure will continue to be on them the closer we get to the start of the 2024 season.

What could the Argo's possibly say in public that would help them in the court of public opinion? Attack her story and they're attacking a female victim. Say she's right but it doesn't amount to harassment or firing, which is likely the court case. Still attacking a female victim.

Harassment? Sounds like it, but it wasn't enough for her to quit. In fact she would have signed another contract if one was offered. 

Firing? The Argos didn't fire her & she didn't quit because of the harassment. The Argos chose the person who was worth way more to the team to keep and didn't offer a contract to the low end employee. That's business. 

Quote from: TBURGESS on April 19, 2024, 02:43:27 PMWhat could the Argo's possibly say in public that would help them in the court of public opinion? Attack her story and they're attacking a female victim. Say she's right but it doesn't amount to harassment or firing, which is likely the court case. Still attacking a female victim.

Harassment? Sounds like it, but it wasn't enough for her to quit. In fact she would have signed another contract if one was offered.

Firing? The Argos didn't fire her & she didn't quit because of the harassment. The Argos chose the person who was worth way more to the team to keep and didn't offer a contract to the low end employee. That's business.

What can they say?

Have Kelly say "I'm sorry.  I did not know that my remarks were taken that way, and I apologize for any discomfort I may have caused.  I respect the work that "the coach" did for the team, and I will endeavour to do better going forward."

Then  the lawyer comes up and says "The locker room is a different place, and sometimes remarks are made that would not happen in a public setting.  Now that we are including more women in the environment makes this a more sensitive issue, and we are re-emphasizing the need for all parties to be more careful in their interactions going forward, and have re-committed to our in house training that the CFL has recommended."

The Pinball comes up and says "The Argos regret that this combination of events took place, and in the interest of being as fair as we can be, we have honoured "the coach's" requested compensation, and wish her well in her future in the industry".

Issue settled.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on April 19, 2024, 05:24:02 AMWill you equally condemn the accuser if it turns out it's a big lie or hoax?  Many times when that is the outcome the story just quietly goes away, perhaps after leaving a life in shambles.

100% I would but as I said from the beginning the most likely outcome is to settle out of court because that comes with a gag order. That means we will never know everything about this and  Kelly keeps playing.

Quote from: theaardvark on April 19, 2024, 05:15:28 PMWhat can they say?

Have Kelly say "I'm sorry.  I did not know that my remarks were taken that way, and I apologize for any discomfort I may have caused.  I respect the work that "the coach" did for the team, and I will endeavour to do better going forward."

Then  the lawyer comes up and says "The locker room is a different place, and sometimes remarks are made that would not happen in a public setting.  Now that we are including more women in the environment makes this a more sensitive issue, and we are re-emphasizing the need for all parties to be more careful in their interactions going forward, and have re-committed to our in house training that the CFL has recommended."

The Pinball comes up and says "The Argos regret that this combination of events took place, and in the interest of being as fair as we can be, we have honoured "the coach's" requested compensation, and wish her well in her future in the industry".

Issue settled.

Learned from government, coming forward with an apology acknowledges an incident occurred and accepts responsibility for wrongdoing, at this point it doesn't seem like that is the Argos intention.

Any settlement comes with the implication that something happened.  Getting out in front, and making it sound like you are sincerly sorry without admitting that there was any intent is probably the best you can do, short of getting the complaint withdrawn for a large payout and an NDA, which it does not seem like the plaintiff would be satisfied with.

Quote from: TBURGESS on April 19, 2024, 02:43:27 PMHarassment? Sounds like it, but it wasn't enough for her to quit. In fact she would have signed another contract if one was offered.

Firing? The Argos didn't fire her & she didn't quit because of the harassment. The Argos chose the person who was worth way more to the team to keep and didn't offer a contract to the low end employee. That's business.

C'mon, that's not a fact.  That's speculation.

I agree with you otherwise. Optics and business are the drivers here for the Argos and MLSE. And it's easy for this to get swept aside in a big market like Toronto where, especially right now, the Jays and the Leafs are taking all the headlines. Nobody cares about the Argonauts right now.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on April 22, 2024, 02:01:03 PMC'mon, that's not a fact.  That's speculation.

I agree with you otherwise. Optics and business are the drivers here for the Argos and MLSE. And it's easy for this to get swept aside in a big market like Toronto where, especially right now, the Jays and the Leafs are taking all the headlines. Nobody cares about the Argonauts right now.

She's complaining that they didn't offer her another contract. Why would she complain if she wouldn't sign it? 

Quote from: TBURGESS on April 22, 2024, 02:04:52 PMShe's complaining that they didn't offer her another contract. Why would she complain if she wouldn't sign it?

She said she was informed that her contract would not be renewed on Jan. 29. (https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/rick-westhead-argos-qb-kelly-accused-of-harassment-in-wrongful-dismissal-lawsuit-1.2079719#:~:text=she%20was%20informed%20that%20her%20contract%20would%20not%20be%20renewed%20on%20Jan.%2029.)

Her providing details as to what took place is hardly complaining, much less justification for anyone to suggest it's a fact she would've signed a new contract.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on April 22, 2024, 02:20:16 PMShe said she was informed that her contract would not be renewed on Jan. 29. (https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/rick-westhead-argos-qb-kelly-accused-of-harassment-in-wrongful-dismissal-lawsuit-1.2079719#:~:text=she%20was%20informed%20that%20her%20contract%20would%20not%20be%20renewed%20on%20Jan.%2029.)

Her providing details as to what took place is hardly complaining, much less justification for anyone to suggest it's a fact she would've signed a new contract.

She's suing for wrongful dismissal. If she wouldn't have signed the contract then how could it be wrongful dismissal? 

Quote from: TBURGESS on April 19, 2024, 02:43:27 PMWhat could the Argo's possibly say in public that would help them in the court of public opinion? Attack her story and they're attacking a female victim. Say she's right but it doesn't amount to harassment or firing, which is likely the court case. Still attacking a female victim.

Harassment? Sounds like it, but it wasn't enough for her to quit. In fact she would have signed another contract if one was offered.

Firing? The Argos didn't fire her & she didn't quit because of the harassment. The Argos chose the person who was worth way more to the team to keep and didn't offer a contract to the low end employee. That's business.

She would have signed another contract if the Argos had created a safe workspace, for sure. 

IF that Argos let her go so they could keep Kelly, then that is an egregious violation of basic human resources priorities.  You don't get rid to the victim, you FIX the problem.  If that means cutting Kelly, so be it. But it should be as simple as telling him to adjust his interactions with the team staff.  Punishing the victim for bringing a concern to light is not what the CFL needs a franchise to do.

Quote from: theaardvark on April 22, 2024, 05:27:19 PMShe would have signed another contract if the Argos had created a safe workspace, for sure. 

IF that Argos let her go so they could keep Kelly, then that is an egregious violation of basic human resources priorities.  You don't get rid to the victim, you FIX the problem.  If that means cutting Kelly, so be it. But it should be as simple as telling him to adjust his interactions with the team staff.  Punishing the victim for bringing a concern to light is not what the CFL needs a franchise to do.

Her contract expired, it's not her choice to sign another one if the Argos don't offer her another contract.  What they did is perfectly legal and doesn't require any explanation, it happens every other day and twice on Sundays in the business world.  If she was a fulltime employee your reasoning would be sound, but football operates mostly on time limited contracts.  It's a commonly used cop out to avoid taking responsibility.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 23, 2024, 04:52:20 PMHer contract expired, it's not her choice to sign another one if the Argos don't offer her another contract.  What they did is perfectly legal and doesn't require any explanation, it happens every other day and twice on Sundays in the business world.  If she was a fulltime employee your reasoning would be sound, but football operates mostly on time limited contracts.  It's a commonly used cop out to avoid taking responsibility.

No doubt the non renewal of a contract is legal, and at the team's discretion to do so.

And she is within her rights to make a civil claim that she was not renewed due to the fact she had lodged sexual misconduct complaints which were not resolved.  And she can specify damages she has suffered by her treatment, and a judge will decide if she has a case.

The CFL needs something in the middle of these two outcomes.  Where the victim is taken care of and the team doesn't get a black eye.

Regardless the outcome of the case, the team will look bad.  If she wins, they will have been judged to have treated an employee wrongly to coddle a star player.  If she loses, depending on what comes out during the trial, and you can bet some nasty stuff will be said, the team will have "gotten away with" some very bad behaviour.

They should have settled immediately. Airing dirty laundry never helps anyone. Having NFL player Nathan Rourke speak out, as well as many others, is really bad publicity for the CFL and Argos, regardless the outcome.

It's a sad situation where the corporate bully is going to make sure it gets dragged on for as long as they possibly can as they have deep pockets for lawyers and the little guy/gal doesn't. The Argos make me sick.

I thought Pinball had more class than this.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 23, 2024, 04:52:20 PMWhat they did is perfectly legal...

Sure. From an ethics or moral standpoint, however... Pretty different story. Hence her lawsuit, IMO.

Quote from: dd on April 24, 2024, 03:27:35 AMIt's a sad situation where the corporate bully is going to make sure it gets dragged on for as long as they possibly can as they have deep pockets for lawyers and the little guy/gal doesn't. The Argos make me sick.

I thought Pinball had more class than this.

This nasty situation is probably above him. I agree it's still a bad look, though.

Chad Kelly denies sexual overtures towards former Argos strength and conditioning coach in statement of defence - https://3downnation.com/2024/04/30/chad-kelly-denies-sexual-overtures-towards-former-argos-strength-and-conditioning-coach-in-statement-of-defence/

Kelly's side of the story. 

Quote from: TBURGESS on April 30, 2024, 02:50:59 PMKelly's side of the story.

Ugh, no link to the statement of defence referenced in the article?  They make it sound like they had some court leak when really all these things are public record.  They just sent someone down to the court to get a copy.  (Still, better than we can do!)  But why not link to an actual copy?  Lame.

First thoughts:

- This is totally going to be settled.  Might take a while, but the nature of the claims by both sides mean one side outright winning in court is probably impossible... and even if possible, neither side can know which way the coin will fall.  The lawyers, and the court, will be pressuring everyone to settle.  Then the NDA will mean no one ever knows squat, which will be a massive anti-climax.

- Kelly making an ace strategic move hiring a female lawyer.  No one wants to see a dude lawyer beating up on a female alleged-victim.  But no one bats an eye when a lady does it.

- Kelly saying "they could go out sometime in the future as a group"... uh, I was a 20-something dude once and no 20-something dude (especially not a star QB) says those words.  That makes me inclined to think they are a lie.

Aards' take & verbiage ideas are actually a good compromise, along with maybe a reduced settlement out of court... but unfortunately today's legal structure and political environment make such decency impossible.  You guys are right in that it would be taken as an admission of guilt and Kelly further crucified.  There's really no win here.

Well, there was one win, pay the first ask (maybe with a bit of haggling) before it went public on the condition of a big NDA.  Then no one ever hears a thing and the trainer gets her payday.  And the CFL doesn't get egg on its face.  Even better, it doesn't set precedent for "copycats" because no one would ever know.  The fact they didn't do this, again, hints that Kelly may be mostly/completely innocent.  Why fight it unless you feel totally wronged, and are certain any witnesses will back you up?

The CFL home page features on the bottom left the "Diversity is Strength" motto, and three articles:

Steinberg: 5 trailblazers in the CFL on International Women's Day

Diversity Is Strength Conversations: Progress and pain for women in sports

Hall: How I learned to embrace being a female reporter

The Argos are single handedly  destroying this framework.  They make a diversity hire in a conditioning coach,and then blow it up by letting this happen, and then get dragged out into public.

Not a great look for team or league.  "We're trying, but Kelly is a really, really good player..."

Quote from: theaardvark on May 01, 2024, 04:19:15 PMNot a great look for team or league.  "We're trying, but Kelly is a really, really good player..."

Well, you have to admit that TOR goes to GC contender to near-worst team in the league if they lose Kelly.  They have zero legit backup for him and there are no free ones to sign this late in FA.  Not saying this is right, but this is definitely on the mind of the Argos and CFL higher-ups.  They always want a competitive TOR team to sustain the tiny STH and TV-watching base.

Which is kind of funny as for a brief while they had Kelly, MBT, Zach and Franklin (and maybe 1-2 lessers?) all signed at the same time!  That was a crazy moment.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on May 02, 2024, 07:09:24 AMWell, you have to admit that TOR goes to GC contender to near-worst team in the league if they lose Kelly.  They have zero legit backup for him and there are no free ones to sign this late in FA.  Not saying this is right, but this is definitely on the mind of the Argos and CFL higher-ups.  They always want a competitive TOR team to sustain the tiny STH and TV-watching base.

Which is kind of funny as for a brief while they had Kelly, MBT, Zach and Franklin (and maybe 1-2 lessers?) all signed at the same time!  That was a crazy moment.

Which is why they should have immediately settled.  Its not like they didn't have a chance, or that the complainant was running to the media...  This is the corporate overloards of the Argos cheaping out and killing their franchise and the league in doing so.

Ambroisie should have settled it the instant he found out and then taxed it back from the Argos...

Killing the league...? ::)

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on May 02, 2024, 04:57:03 PMKilling the league...? ::)

Figuratively, with the league pushing diversity, and one of its teams accused of this behaviour, it kills that message.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 02, 2024, 05:01:36 PMFiguratively, with the league pushing diversity, and one of its teams accused of this behaviour, it kills that message.

It kills the message with the Argonauts organization - them and them alone. There are eight other organizations not involved and seemingly adhere to the diversity is strength narrative.

Your hyperbole is neither helpful nor necessary.

When Nathan Rourke calls out the CFL (not the Argos), its a league issue.  It is caused by the Argos, it is legally affecting the Argos, but the League gets splashed with the mud.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 02, 2024, 05:16:02 PMWhen Nathan Rourke calls out the CFL (not the Argos), its a league issue.  It is caused by the Argos, it is legally affecting the Argos, but the League gets splashed with the mud.

Rourke isn't an authority on anything here. He's an athlete expressing his opinion and nothing more.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 02, 2024, 05:01:36 PMFiguratively, with the league pushing diversity, and one of its teams accused of this behaviour, it kills that message.

That's right it is a message, the CFL front office is striving to look politically correct and keep pace with modern trends.  Meanwhile football teams and locker rooms especially are run in military fashion by die hard members of an old boys club who resist change at every step.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on May 02, 2024, 05:19:47 PMRourke isn't an authority on anything here. He's an athlete expressing his opinion and nothing more.

He is presently an NFL player with CFL history, and has a voice that reaches an audience of more than one...  its not his "authoritative knowledge" on the subject that is the issue, it is that he has expressed his opinion, and that allows others to learn about it, and make their opinions about it.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 02, 2024, 07:37:12 PMHe is presently an NFL player with CFL history, and has a voice that reaches an audience of more than one...  its not his "authoritative knowledge" on the subject that is the issue, it is that he has expressed his opinion, and that allows others to learn about it, and make their opinions about it.

And?

Was he privy to what took place within the Argonauts organization with this incident? No.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on May 02, 2024, 07:51:50 PMAnd?

Was he privy to what took place within the Argonauts organization with this incident? No.

This is an issue of appearances... and leaving it unresolved allows people to comment, regardless their level of expertise or knowledge of the situation.

This is optics, and having the former best QB in the league who is now in the NFL comment negatively on the issue is bad.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on May 02, 2024, 05:33:34 PMThat's right it is a message, the CFL front office is striving to look politically correct and keep pace with modern trends.  Meanwhile football teams and locker rooms especially are run in military fashion by die hard members of an old boys club who resist change at every step.

And this debacle (regardless of who is right or "wins") just reinforces that it should remain that way.  None of this would have happened had the trainer been a dude.   Not saying it's right or wrong: it's just a fact.  This sets all the CFL "modernization" attempts back a decade.  No team (or league) needs this PR exposure.  Watch how many female trainers are hired in the coming few years...

Aards is right: this is a world of optics (like it or not), especially optics on the trendy buzzwords.  And this is bad optics for the league, not just the Argos.  At the start of the draft TSN asked Ambrosie specifically about this issue, proving it's basically front and center in the CFL world right now.

Wow, if you thought this was getting attention on this forum, check out the riderfans forum Kelly thread: up to 54 pages!!  And no, it's not much different from the banter going on around here...

Kelly has been very successful at one thing: making himself top of mind among fans league-wide!  Winning?   ;)  ;D  :o

Quote from: TecnoGenius on May 03, 2024, 09:42:54 AMWow, if you thought this was getting attention on this forum, check out the riderfans forum Kelly thread: up to 54 pages!!  And no, it's not much different from the banter going on around here...

Kelly has been very successful at one thing: making himself top of mind among fans league-wide!  Winning?   ;)  ;D  :o

The old adage goes,  if they spell your name right, any publicity is good publicity.  Well, in this case, not so much.

Regardless the outcome, you can bet there will be boo's greeting Kelly in 8 or even 9 venues this year.

Polarizing figure, for sure. 

After all this if Kelly does play it's going to be interesting to see how he looks.

He put forth one of the all time worst CFL playoff performances (at least in recent years) last November and then his off season has clearly been distracting and awful.

Football is a mental game especially with kickers and quarterbacks. Wonder where his head is at and if there are any alarm bells ringing in Toronto.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 03, 2024, 03:45:01 PMRegardless the outcome, you can bet there will be boo's greeting Kelly in 8 or even 9 venues this year.

Hehehehe.  That would be awesome.

However, home fans tend to overlook a lot of bunk to support their star players.  HAM never booed Simoni.  It took a ton of evil stuff to finally get SSK to turn on Marino.

Egad, we re still talking about this guy??

Quote from: dd on May 04, 2024, 05:32:22 AMEgad, we re still talking about this guy??

He is regarded as the best player in the CFL, definitely the highest paid, and the QB for the franchise of the Toronto-centric CFL.

So, yeah...

CFL has suspended Kelly for pre-season and the first 9 regular season games --- YAHOO

This had to be done or the league would suffer. Time to grow up Chad!

Toronto Argonauts quarterback Chad Kelly has been suspended for 2024's preseason games and a minimum of nine further games for violating the Canadian Football League's (CFL) Gender-based Violence Policy. Mr. Kelly will be required to undergo confidential assessments by an independent expert and attend mandatory counselling sessions conducted by a gender-based violence expert.

Both the counselling sessions and the assessments must be satisfactorily completed before the CFL will consider Mr. Kelly's reinstatement. If he is unable to satisfactorily complete those sessions and assessments, the CFL reserves the right to modify his discipline.

The decision is the result of a thorough third-party investigation into allegations made against Mr. Kelly.

"Players are the ambassadors of our great game," said CFL Commissioner Randy Ambrosie. "They are expected to be leaders in the locker room and role models in the community. It was important that we performed our due diligence to properly review this matter from all points of view. That in-depth investigation found that Mr. Kelly unequivocally violated the CFL's Gender-based Violence Policy.

"Mr. Kelly's suspension is the direct result of his behaviour. The addition of mandatory counselling focuses on his need for self-reflection and understanding of his actions. He must take full advantage of this opportunity for personal betterment in order to return to the CFL."

Any future violations of the Gender-based Violence Policy by Mr. Kelly will result in further discipline.

The facts surrounding the Toronto Argonauts' conduct in this matter, as laid out by the investigators, will be reviewed with the Club.

All CFL and Club personnel are required to complete gender-based violence training. Discipline resulting from violations of the Gender-based Violence Policy is determined on a case-by-case basis.

https://www.cfl.ca/2024/05/07/chad-kelly-suspended-minimum-of-9-games-for-violating-gender-based-violence-policy/

About time!

I wonder if the Argos can claw back the advance money from the new contract? I don't know if the league will allow that $300K to not be applied against the Argo SMS. I wonder what the statement regarding that this was the minimum suspension? The next step could be permanent banning.

However, if they do then there is an opportunity for Rourke to sign in Toronto that didn't exist yesterday due to SMS constraints / or need at the position.

Obviously I have no idea whether Rourke has any interests in returning anywhere to the CFL at the moment. He may wait it out to see if he gets other offers from another NFL team.

Interesting developments. Not good for the league or the Argos.

I like it. It sends a clear message.

Think we have seen the last of Mr. Kelly.  A tiger does not change his spots and his repution just follows him.

Not good enough. I wanted him gone at least a season. He's a serial offender of various sorts, maybe just this one in the CFL, but we know that the NFL won't touch him. He takes a hit in pay but is back for the playoffs. It's the East, you are in it even if you go 2-7 to start. Being a poster boy for the Argos got him off easy. 

Like Manzeil before him, he is hoist with his own petard.

No doubt the Argos can use a league suspension to invalidate his contract.  If the league has sufficient grounds to suspend, the team has sufficient grounds to terminate, and since the infraction happened before this year of contract started, all bonuses should be recoupable.

Now, Pinball needs to get on the phone with Rourke and say, "Come home, young man."

And then that Idea goes out the window, the Giants just claimed Rourke off waivers.

Now Toronto is pooched.

$300K signing bonus goes against SMS.

Quote from: Ridermania on May 07, 2024, 09:12:45 PM$300K signing bonus goes against SMS.

Normally that is true. The league may amend that due to the suspension. Regardless, Rourke was picked up on waivers by the Giants so he's not coming to the CFL for the moment.

Quote from: Ridermania on May 07, 2024, 09:12:45 PM$300K signing bonus goes against SMS.

Good. The Argonauts deserve absolutely no relief. This slimy situation is bad enough but the organization needs to suffer for being complicit in Kelly's disgusting antics*.

* alleged

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 07, 2024, 09:19:47 PMNormally that is true. The league may amend that due to the suspension.

I really, really hope not.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on May 07, 2024, 09:21:14 PMGood. The Argonauts deserve absolutely no relief. This slimy situation is bad enough but the organization needs to suffer for being complicit in Kelly's disgusting antics*.

* alleged

I really, really hope not.

I'm not sure I agree with you on that statement. Where does the league draw a line on any such problem going forward.

We'll see how the league responds on this matter. The entire issue of advance money can be a problem in several different scenarios.

Example: A top player is given 50% of his $500K-$600K salary and is injured in TC and lost for the season? A number of choices in recent years.
Example: A player takes a large advance payment and then retires before TC ( Darian Durant )
Example: Lawler suspension going into 2023.

Now I realize the Kelly situation is different than my examples. I don't know whether we have enough info in regard to the Argos culpability.

If they do " waive " the advance money, there isn't much place for the Argos to spend it until the end of the season with re-signing of their free agents?



 

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 07, 2024, 09:42:07 PMWhere does the league draw a line on any such problem going forward.

With regard to situations such as this, I think the precedent was set today.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on May 07, 2024, 09:52:40 PMWith regard to situations such as this, I think the precedent was set today.

For the suspension but are we certain about the SMS aspect?

Props to the league for doing this but way too late

Quote from: Blueforlife on May 08, 2024, 01:16:57 AMProps to the league for doing this but way too late

Guessing it took this long to investigate fully.  If they get it wrong, they can have an issue...

Quote from: Jockitch on May 07, 2024, 06:25:02 PMCFL has suspended Kelly for pre-season and the first 9 regular season games --- YAHOO

Wow.  Just wow.  I'm truly shocked.  Is there any precedent for this?  In the last decade I think the Simoni or Marino situations were the worst punishment doled out.  Simoni had the longest suspension at 3 games, right?

Missing TC, missing PS, and missing 9 reg season games is really making a statement.  And to do it to the "most important CFL team"?!  Argo owners must be livid!!  Surely they were applying the pressure to Ambrosie for a favorable outcome.  Say what you want about Ambrosie, this move took some massive footballs.

Knowing all of the above... 9 games?  Half the season with some joe blow at QB instead of league top-3 Kelly?  This instantly puts Argos down 2-3 places by labor day.  And it destroys ticket sales and TV ratings.  Just wow!

The investigator must have found some gold to cause this result.  As in there must have been multiple players and other staff that turned on Kelly when questioned.  That's the only "proof" there will be in these types of situations.  Outside of the backup QBs (hehe) it's a strange thing for team-mates to turn on their leader, especially knowing that could cost them playoff/cup money as they go from heroes to zeroes.  Yes, Ambrosie must have gotten some big beefy ammo to dole out 9 weeks and then walk into the Argos' club to explain their decision.

Which then leads to the fact that Kelly & Argos are really really dumb for not settling at the first whisper of trouble, all off the record, no suspensions, no bad optics.  And all SMS free!!  Now they are going to be out a whackton of SMS *and* real cash money.  And left QBless... the worst of all worlds.  Dumb!!

It still doesn't all add up, unless Kelly really is that stupid, maybe so dumb he doesn't even know how he is behaving, and really thought it was nothing or he'd get away with it.

But this makes my perennial point about teams hiring less near-locker-room women even more poignant: the risk isn't just bad optics, or SMS loss, or money loss: no the risk is you lose an entire year of competitiveness and ticket sales!  This is a complete disaster for Pinball et al, and next time they want to look great for a hiring, they are going to think twice.  And that's not necessarily a good thing.

Quote from: Waffler on May 07, 2024, 08:09:43 PMNot good enough. I wanted him gone at least a season. He's a serial offender of various sorts, maybe just this one in the CFL, but we know that the NFL won't touch him. He takes a hit in pay but is back for the playoffs. It's the East, you are in it even if you go 2-7 to start. Being a poster boy for the Argos got him off easy.

A season?  Nothing like that has ever occurred in recent CFL.  9 games sounds insane to me, let alone 18.  You have to sit within the confines of the CFL CBA and precedent.  It seems each new "bad thing" that happens in the CFL is getting a larger and larger penalty.  That's not always a good thing.

If you're an Argos fan who just bought their ST, how are you feeling about now?  What if this was Zach?  Heck, at least if it was us we'd have a decent .500 Strevie, not like completely hopeless Argos... who's the next man up... ah, Dukes.  Ya, good luck with that!!  The fans didn't do anything to deserve this!  GC favorite to as bad (or worse?) than OTT in one swoop of Ambrosie's pen??  Yikes.  Vilify Kelly all you want, but have some empathy for the fans.

Touched on briefly but needs more fleshing out:

Does Kelly just take his ball and go home now?  This is a slap in his face.  He'll take this personally.  He probably doesn't really need to be playing, he probably has family money.  He might just say bleep it and go home.

He doesn't strike me as a "strong character" guy that would truck through this and serve his penance with humility.  But I could be wrong.

So few talented QBs in the league, and we're always in need of more, and we may have just chased him off for good.  Ya, we all don't like him, but is this really best for the league and the on-field/TV product?  It was fine with Manziel, as he never looked good on-field; but we can't argue Kelly wasn't a talented, productive QB.

On a lighter, self-serving note, WPG@TOR is Kelly-free week 8, TOR@WPG week 19.  So our likelihood of sweeping the season series just went up 30-60%.

Now... off to get the (always more raunchy) ridersfans takes on it...

The pressure on the league/Ambrosie to act as fast as possible must have been immense.  All the statements to date were hinting at a long, drawn out "investigation" going well into the season.  Even the last one put out by Ambrosie in the draft hinted at that.

And then BAM, a week later they're handing out the severest punishment ever.  I wonder if the pressure just got too great, and/or outside forces "above" Ambrosie told him to deal with it, or maybe all the other clubs joined together to green-light the hit on MLSE?  I don't think you make this move without major firepower backing you up.

I really like that it's dealt with before week 1: no one needed it looming over the celebration of the return to football.  But it certainly is odd!

Oh ya, mods, change the thread titled to "cited".  We don't want to look like the lesser side of the banjo bowl rivalry!!

Quote from: TecnoGenius on May 08, 2024, 07:33:17 AMThe pressure on the league/Ambrosie to act as fast as possible must have been immense.  All the statements to date were hinting at a long, drawn out "investigation" going well into the season.  Even the last one put out by Ambrosie in the draft hinted at that.

And then BAM, a week later they're handing out the severest punishment ever.  I wonder if the pressure just got too great, and/or outside forces "above" Ambrosie told him to deal with it, or maybe all the other clubs joined together to green-light the hit on MLSE?  I don't think you make this move without major firepower backing you up.

I really like that it's dealt with before week 1: no one needed it looming over the celebration of the return to football.  But it certainly is odd!

The most severe punishment was recently handed out to Shawn Lemon, a season-long suspension.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on May 08, 2024, 06:57:02 AMA season?  Nothing like that has ever occurred in recent CFL.

December 8, 2021, Toronto Argonauts Exec John Murphy Suspended INDEFINITELY After Altercation with Fans
April 27, 2024, Shawn Lemon suspended INDEFINITELY.

They can do it if they want to.

Quote from: 1chad on May 08, 2024, 01:28:05 PMThe most severe punishment was recently handed out to Shawn Lemon, a season-long suspension.

Short memories. Lawler was suspended for 6 games last year. I supported that action although how he played for the entire 2022 season in Edmonton is beyond me. The Bombers end up holding the bag in 2023. I had a problem with that delay.

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 07, 2024, 11:12:36 PMFor the suspension but are we certain about the SMS aspect?

Not sure about the latter. I simply meant the league has set the precedent for what punishment is for such heinous behaviour.

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 08, 2024, 01:37:39 PMShort memories. Lawler was suspended for 6 games last year. I supported that action although how he played for the entire 2022 season in Edmonton is beyond me. The Bombers end up holding the bag in 2023. I had a problem with that delay.

*We* suspended Lawler while his passport/visa issues were straightened out.  It wasn't a punishment, but rather an administrative move to salvage SMS$ while he was legally unable to work.  It was not a league suspension, like Kelly or Lemon, but rather being put on the "suspended" list by the team.

Civil court is much easier to win than criminal court, the burden of proof is different.  No "betond all reasonable doubt".  So the civil matter is a bigger crap shoot not settling.

The league, however, can bring any judgement it wants, at any time, due to the nature of the contracts.  If their investigation showed credible proof of misconduct, they can enforce the terms of the contract that no doubt include ideas like "conduct unbecoming" or "conduct contrary to league principles".  We do not know the specifics of Kelly's deal, or whether Pinball can cancel it, but I do not doubt that in the coming weeks, we will see some sort of ending of the deal.  Argos might have to eat the signing bonus, but they can cut Kelly without cause at any moment, and can sue him from the signing bonus back for cause. 

I don't think many would have an issue with Ambroise giving the Argos partial forgiveness of the $SMS hit for the signing bonus, leaving, say, $100k hit on the cap as a penalty, but forgiving the rest.

   

No forgiveness for me. Argos management knew that there was a problem before the 2023 season ended. They decided to sweep it under the rug, until this young lady filed a lawsuit. And, even then they didn't take responsibility for there part in this matter.   

Quote from: Pigskin on May 08, 2024, 03:53:44 PMNo forgiveness for me. Argos management knew that there was a problem before the 2023 season ended. They decided to sweep it under the rug, until this young lady filed a lawsuit. And, even then they didn't take responsibility for there part in this matter.   

The Argos are culpable, yes.  Pinball did take action when it reached him, and notified the league office.  Pinball needs to clean house of the chain of command that failed to report.

Hamstringing the organization will do the league even more harm, though. I'm not suggesting they get a free pass, but losing 5% of $SMS because a player broke policy?  Again, if the league found that Pinball knew and condoned covering it up, Draft Picks should be involved in the penalty.  But since the investigation by the league singled out Kelly, and Kelly alone, I am assuming the Argos have some claims to have worked towards handling the situation.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 08, 2024, 03:33:58 PM*We* suspended Lawler while his passport/visa issues were straightened out.  It wasn't a punishment, but rather an administrative move to salvage SMS$ while he was legally unable to work.  It was not a league suspension, like Kelly or Lemon, but rather being put on the "suspended" list by the team.

Civil court is much easier to win than criminal court, the burden of proof is different.  No "betond all reasonable doubt".  So the civil matter is a bigger crap shoot not settling.

The league, however, can bring any judgement it wants, at any time, due to the nature of the contracts.  If their investigation showed credible proof of misconduct, they can enforce the terms of the contract that no doubt include ideas like "conduct unbecoming" or "conduct contrary to league principles".  We do not know the specifics of Kelly's deal, or whether Pinball can cancel it, but I do not doubt that in the coming weeks, we will see some sort of ending of the deal.  Argos might have to eat the signing bonus, but they can cut Kelly without cause at any moment, and can sue him from the signing bonus back for cause. 

I don't think many would have an issue with Ambroise giving the Argos partial forgiveness of the $SMS hit for the signing bonus, leaving, say, $100k hit on the cap as a penalty, but forgiving the rest.

   

Doesn't change the fact the team paid a large advance money. He lost a 1/3 of the season, so it was still a penalty absorbed by the Bombers. It may have saved some game day SMS but not the advance money.

The point being is that this should have happened in 2022 not 2023.

Quote from: Waffler on May 08, 2024, 01:36:06 PMDecember 8, 2021, Toronto Argonauts Exec John Murphy Suspended INDEFINITELY After Altercation with Fans
April 27, 2024, Shawn Lemon suspended INDEFINITELY.

They can do it if they want to.

Didn't Edwards also get 6 games in that altercation.

Quote from: Pigskin on May 08, 2024, 06:16:14 PMDidn't Edwards also get 6 games in that altercation.

Initially, yes. But it was reduced to three games (https://www.tsn.ca/chris-edwards-toronto-argonauts-reduced-suspension-1.1821416) after the fact.

Kelly and his agent remain undecided on appealing the suspension: https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-chad-kelly-agent-undecided-on-appealing-cfl-s-nine-game-suspension-1.2116612

Chatted with our Bomber border today. He said there is no room in the CFL or any sport where Kelly's actions are expectable. He said most professional team across North America employee females and they deserve respect. 

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 08, 2024, 05:17:12 PMDoesn't change the fact the team paid a large advance money. He lost a 1/3 of the season, so it was still a penalty absorbed by the Bombers. It may have saved some game day SMS but not the advance money.

The point being is that this should have happened in 2022 not 2023.

Lawler received a one game suspension from the Bombers for his impaired driving charge, the other games he missed can be attributed to waiting for the immigration fiasco to resolve.

Quote from: 1chad on May 08, 2024, 01:28:05 PMThe most severe punishment was recently handed out to Shawn Lemon, a season-long suspension.

Well, a) he had already retired so suspending him for X meant nothing, and b) this happened literally a couple of weeks before this Kelly suspension.  They Kelly 9 games still stands as the longest suspension of an active (star) in CFL history, by leaps and bounds.  We all thought 3 for Simoni crippling other players was big before.

My point about the temporal relation is that it's just in the last few weeks Ambrosie has decided to really push the punishment overton window to the extreme.  It's clear they want everyone to know the clampdown is real and hard.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 08, 2024, 03:33:58 PMI don't think many would have an issue with Ambroise giving the Argos partial forgiveness of the $SMS hit for the signing bonus, leaving, say, $100k hit on the cap as a penalty, but forgiving the rest.

I would take issue with SMS forgiveness!  Did OTT get forgiven any signing bonus they gave Masoli last year?  Did we get (partially) forgiven any bonus we gave Kenny last year?  Did anyone give us our $70k SMS back for Durant being a total DB deliberately shafting us with full foreknowledge and intent?

TOR can eat it.

Quote from: Pigskin on May 08, 2024, 06:34:40 PMChatted with our Bomber border today. He said there is no room in the CFL or any sport where Kelly's actions are expectable. He said most professional team across North America employee females and they deserve respect.

100% of course.  Every single person in every single organization deserves to be treated fairly and civilly.  If you don't like a person for legit reasons (they are a DB to you), then just don't interact with them.

But (most) every team is going to have a "Chad Kelly" guy lurking somewhere.  You need to minimize the possibility of this scenario if you don't want to blow up your season.  And you can't always tell who that Kelly guy is going to be in advance...

(Well, in the Manziel and Kelly cases they made it easy to guess.)

I'm fine with the suspension counting or not counting against the SMS. I can think of good reasons to do either.

Whatever is decided, however, should be codified as a rule and consistently applied for all off-field suspensions. The league should communicate publically what that is and why. It's not something that should be dealt with at the club level in private.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on May 08, 2024, 09:36:00 PMWhatever is decided, however, should be codified as a rule and consistently applied for all off-field suspensions. The league should communicate publically what that is and why. It's not something that should be dealt with at the club level in private.

Great point.  In the last couple of seasons the penalties just get harsher and harsher and it always feels like they're pulling the "how many weeks" punishment out of Ambrosie's butt.  Hence the "unprecedented".

I would be nice if there was a basic groundwork laid for what players can expect as punishment for X infraction.

Anyone saying TOR should have Kelly's $300k SMS excused needs to tell me why the same wouldn't have applied to Durant in WPG?

If anything, the Durant situation was far less of a CFL fiasco then Kelly, so why should we "reward" Argos/Kelly with SMS relief for the worst behavior whilst WPG got royally shafted for no bad behavior whatsoever?

AND if Kelly DOES step on the field again, then certainly there can't be ANY SMS relief, or TOR is getting one big freebie!!  If that happens then I could:

1. Sign Zach for '25 for $600k signing bonus, $0 salary.
2. Arrange for Zach to be "naughty" to get a 3-6 month suspension.
3. CFL forgives the $600k SMS
4. Buy $600k of gravy players to make my team the best ever
5. I roll with Strev for week 1-4ish (probably .500)
6. Zach returns and him + the $600k of free SMS players steamroll everyone in the post-season

No, there can be no SMS relief in this case or you reward bad behavior, and if Kelly returns in week 10 and the CFL did give them SMS relief, I'll be livid.

Finally: if TOR gets the $300k SMS relief and Kelly gets to keep the $300k in his pocket, then you're rewarding absolutely everyone involved, including the worst offender!

The only reason for $SMS "forgiveness" is if the contract gets nullified.  If the Argos manage to get out of the deal for breach in some way, the "the contract never happened" and no $SMS hit.

If he plays for them, of course, no forgiveness.  They will have made their bed and have to sleep in it.

there has been a trend in recent years at the qb position to renegotiate contracts to aid the salary cap, ie players taking a cut in salary but being offset by bonus benefits.
the Kelly situation is a prime example of how trying to do this can backfire on you

At the time I first posted this on Chad Kelly, I wasn't surprised by the allegations regarding his behaviour as I've never really liked his persona!  Now the chickens have finally come home to roost and the Argos will pay the price as they should because their response to this entire debacle was reprehensible at best. 

Quote from: theaardvark on May 09, 2024, 02:42:44 AMThe only reason for $SMS "forgiveness" is if the contract gets nullified.  If the Argos manage to get out of the deal for breach in some way, the "the contract never happened" and no $SMS hit.

If he plays for them, of course, no forgiveness.  They will have made their bed and have to sleep in it.

But therein lies the rub: How does anyone know if he'll play in week 10?  The only way you can guarantee he won't is if he is cut with some guarantee he can't be re-signed by TOR.

The league would have to protect against a nullification, an SMS relief attempt, and a re-sign with new terms in week 10.

Keep in mind throughout all of this, no matter what happens, Kelly keeps that $300k in his pocket!!  If Kelly plays again, he'll be able to charge his (whatever) team $300k less because he already pocketed half his salary!  And if he doesn't play again until 2025, he makes $300k for sitting on his couch a full year... not a bad gig!

And again, why does the Kelly situation get SMS relief and not the Durant (or any other) situation?  Better question: has any team ever gotten any special-exemption SMS relief?  If no, why are we even talking about this?

There should never be SMS forgiveness. That's the risk of giving out bonuses. You know there's a chance the player could be injured/suspended/play poorly.

Quote from: Jesse on May 09, 2024, 12:02:58 PMThere should never be SMS forgiveness. That's the risk of giving out bonuses. You know there's a chance the player could be injured/suspended/play poorly.

Never can't cover all the possibilities. The advance money is to create an advantage to both sides. More money in the pocket for the player because of the tax advantage. Less total contract cost to the team.

Collaros got $300K advance money. Fill in any other highly paid player. If he's injured day 1 in TC and lst for the season, why should something like this penalize the team?

I can't believe there shouldn't be some exceptions beyond negating a contract.

The Kelly instance may not be one where this should apply. However since I don't know all the details of what happened of what the organization knew, I'm trying to be impartial. It's an enormous hit that hurts the team more than the player.

Kelly gets $300K to not play.

Note: I have no issue with a player injured getting his entire contract on the 6 game IR. The player needs that protection. I see a suspension for other issues than injury may fall outside that concept. That would include whether the team or league suspended a player and the reason involved.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on May 09, 2024, 04:48:07 AMBut therein lies the rub: How does anyone know if he'll play in week 10?  The only way you can guarantee he won't is if he is cut with some guarantee he can't be re-signed by TOR.

The league would have to protect against a nullification, an SMS relief attempt, and a re-sign with new terms in week 10.

Keep in mind throughout all of this, no matter what happens, Kelly keeps that $300k in his pocket!!  If Kelly plays again, he'll be able to charge his (whatever) team $300k less because he already pocketed half his salary!  And if he doesn't play again until 2025, he makes $300k for sitting on his couch a full year... not a bad gig!

And again, why does the Kelly situation get SMS relief and not the Durant (or any other) situation?  Better question: has any team ever gotten any special-exemption SMS relief?  If no, why are we even talking about this?

OK, let me rephrase that,

"If the Argos INTEND for him to play this year, and leave his contract intact, then of course no relief".

You can't have relief and keep him.

If they terminate his contract for cause, they should be able to claw back his bonus, and should be given relief on what they claw back. 

Have to wonder, post the Durant retirement, if teams are now including a "Durant clause" that is "if a player does not take a snap for the team after signing, his bonuses are considered monies accepted under false pretenses and must be returned".

Reasons why SMS should be forgiven after off-field incidents(in general, not just this case):

When substantial amounts of SMS become forfeit it is bad for the parity of the league and ultimately it is the fans who lose, not being able to see the most competitive product possible. How much would it suck as an Argo fan?

A bad off-field decision by a player can happen anytime. Not just with people who have had troubles before. To some degree, a team could be the most progressive, forward-thinking and pro-active club in North America and can still be a victim of circumstance for which they have no control.

Reasons why SMS should be forgiven after off-field incidents (in general, not just this case):

You want to discourage teams from signing guys who may be problems. You sign a guy with a checkered past, you take the risk.

The SMS system controls all costs with good reason. There should never really be a scenario where one team can legally spend $x more than the other teams.

A potential solution to bridge the gap:
When a player is found to have broken CFL policies and is subsequently suspended by the league for those actions, his club, within 3 days of the announcement of the suspension, may release the player and receive an SMS exemption for paid dollars to that player, pro-rated to the number of games already played that season. If a club does so, they may not resign that player for a period of 365 days or until the suspension is lifted, whichever is greater.  If the club elects to keep the player on their roster, the entire contract shall apply.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 09, 2024, 02:21:24 PMOK, let me rephrase that,

"If the Argos INTEND for him to play this year, and leave his contract intact, then of course no relief".

You can't have relief and keep him.

If they terminate his contract for cause, they should be able to claw back his bonus, and should be given relief on what they claw back. 

Have to wonder, post the Durant retirement, if teams are now including a "Durant clause" that is "if a player does not take a snap for the team after signing, his bonuses are considered monies accepted under false pretenses and must be returned".

Too many variables. What if Kelly goes through the conditions in his contract and the Argos expect him to play the 2nd half of the season. Kelly could potentially decide to walk away from football.

Either way the organization takes a bigger hit than the player.

We've seen many players get injured in early TC and lost for the season ( achilles for example ). Some of those players had large signing bonus's involved. I don't see why the team should be penalized because money was paid early.

Whether it's $600K or $100K, it should be calculated in a pro rated basis.

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 09, 2024, 02:28:04 PMToo many variables. What if Kelly goes through the conditions in his contract and the Argos expect him to play the 2nd half of the season. Kelly could potentially decide to walk away from football.

Either way the organization takes a bigger hit than the player.

We've seen many players get injured in early TC and lost for the season ( achilles for example ). Some of those players had large signing bonus's involved. I don't see why the team should be penalized because money was paid early.

Whether it's $600K or $100K, it should be calculated in a pro rated basis.

For the team to get any $SMS foregivness, it must terminate the contract.  SB&G's point of not resigning the player makes sense as well, for at least that contract year.

If they leave the contract open with the intent of him returning, of course there is no forgiveness.  The must cut ties completely.

Injuries are part of the game, and a gamble when you sign players to bonuses.  They are a quantifiable factor, and players histories will also factor in.  I don't think Masoli will ever get a signing bonus again.

Off field issues should be written into every contract, as well as into the CBA and league rules.  Whether it be criminal or civil or even immigration issues that prevent a player from taking the field, these are not "normal football issues" or quantifiable.  Injuries also have the players protected, getting insurance and treatment under their contracts.  Criminal/civil/immigration issues do not involve the club/league assisting the player, quite the opposite.

Injuries are part of football.  Bad behaviour is not.

Kelly is at Argos practice this morning. He on the field without an uniform on.

Pinball is to speak after practice.

The drama continues....

Many of the commentators seem to be forgetting that the coach in question complained to the Argos after this happened and was told "you don't want to open this can of worms" or words to that effect.  That tells me that the Argos were made aware of Kelly's alleged behaviour and not only did nothing to Kelly, but fired the coach!

If the CFL also finds that the Argos were made aware, did nothing about the allegations, and then fired the complainant, the Argos should be penalized severely.  You cannot fire someone for making a complaint.

Quote from: gobombersgo on May 09, 2024, 03:15:10 PMKelly is at Argos practice this morning. He on the field without an uniform on.

Pinball is to speak after practice.

The drama continues....

(https://media.tenor.com/WhVNa2s7FcQAAAAM/tedlasso-yikes.gif)

RE SMS: We signed a QB from the Riders who never played a down and we got no SMS relief from his bonus. That's what I'd expect would happen in this case too.

Quote from: TBURGESS on May 09, 2024, 03:27:22 PMRE SMS: We signed a QB from the Riders who never played a down and we got no SMS relief from his bonus. That's what I'd expect would happen in this case too.

We made a huge mistake, which became a learning moment.  I bet that there is not a deal with a bonus that does not have a rider for "retirement" now. 

This is not that.  This is a combination of non-football related activities, the league stepping in with a suspension, and the question of whether the player violated his contract with his actions. 

Not the same as $DD4 at all.

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 09, 2024, 01:20:56 PMNever can't cover all the possibilities. The advance money is to create an advantage to both sides. More money in the pocket for the player because of the tax advantage. Less total contract cost to the team.

Collaros got $300K advance money. Fill in any other highly paid player. If he's injured day 1 in TC and lst for the season, why should something like this penalize the team?

I can't believe there shouldn't be some exceptions beyond negating a contract.

The Kelly instance may not be one where this should apply. However since I don't know all the details of what happened of what the organization knew, I'm trying to be impartial. It's an enormous hit that hurts the team more than the player.

Kelly gets $300K to not play.

Note: I have no issue with a player injured getting his entire contract on the 6 game IR. The player needs that protection. I see a suspension for other issues than injury may fall outside that concept. That would include whether the team or league suspended a player and the reason involved.

I don't understand why you feel there should be exemptions. It's not mandatory to hand out bonuses. When teams do it, it's usually to try and manipulate the cap to create an advantage, but it carries that element of risk. That is known beforehand.

Quote from: Jesse on May 09, 2024, 04:30:13 PMI don't understand why you feel there should be exemptions. It's not mandatory to hand out bonuses. When teams do it, it's usually to try and manipulate the cap to create an advantage, but it carries that element of risk. That is known beforehand.

The bonus is not a manipulation. It's a win win situation. Not having an exemption can be a penalty which is never the intent. Obviously an injury can always happen but the " salary " is SMS exempt on 6 game IR.

My point is that the total annual salary includes any pre payment. So in some cases it should be pro rated within the 18 game schedule. If that doesn't happen it can be a severe penalty to the team.

Note that I'm discussing both suspension issues and other issues that are non football related.

Off season training injury or auto accident for example. Not everything is predictable and IMO that should be taken into account for SMS relief.

Quote from: Jesse on May 09, 2024, 04:30:13 PMI don't understand why you feel there should be exemptions. It's not mandatory to hand out bonuses. When teams do it, it's usually to try and manipulate the cap to create an advantage, but it carries that element of risk. That is known beforehand.

We have a severely restricted ability to pay the players.  Bonuses are definitely a cheat to better take advantage of $SMS cap space.  To bring better players into the league.

Yes, they are a crapshoot.  If a player is given a big bonus and ends up getting cut/benched for performance issues, the guy that gave that bonus deserves to have to eat it.

Signing a guy who then retires happened once, will not happen again.  Non issue going forward.

Guys who get injured during off-season training, that's partly the teams fault, they should be making sure the players are training properly. 

Guys who partake in conduct that leads to suspension / contract revoking, either criminal, civil or non-ethical is outside the football scope.  The league should have in place measures in the standard contract that not only revokes the future earnings of a player, but claws back the bonuses paid should the player be unable to complete the contract for other than performance issues.

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 09, 2024, 04:39:08 PMThe bonus is not a manipulation. It's a win win situation. Not having an exemption can be a penalty which is never the intent. Obviously an injury can always happen but the " salary " is SMS exempt on 6 game IR.

My point is that the total annual salary includes any pre payment. So in some cases it should be pro rated within the 18 game schedule. If that doesn't happen it can be a severe penalty to the team.

Note that I'm discussing both suspension issues and other issues that are non football related.

Off season training injury or auto accident for example. Not everything is predictable and IMO that should be taken into account for SMS relief.

I understand what you're saying but I personally disagree there should ever be any exemptions. Don't hand out bonuses if you don't want the risk, imo.

And even if there were an injury exemption; there should 100% not be one for suspensions. Using the Argos as an example, we all knew who Chad Kelly was coming into the league. And a number of people raised their eye brows when he was given his bonus for this exact reason. The Argos shouldn't be given any relief because an expected problem became a problem.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 09, 2024, 05:35:38 PMWe have a severely restricted ability to pay the players.  Bonuses are definitely a cheat to better take advantage of $SMS cap space.  To bring better players into the league.

Yes, they are a crapshoot.  If a player is given a big bonus and ends up getting cut/benched for performance issues, the guy that gave that bonus deserves to have to eat it.

Signing a guy who then retires happened once, will not happen again.  Non issue going forward.

Guys who get injured during off-season training, that's partly the teams fault, they should be making sure the players are training properly. 

Guys who partake in conduct that leads to suspension / contract revoking, either criminal, civil or non-ethical is outside the football scope.  The league should have in place measures in the standard contract that not only revokes the future earnings of a player, but claws back the bonuses paid should the player be unable to complete the contract for other than performance issues.

I agree with everything but clawing back the money. Once you've paid that out, it's gone.

I also don't think off season injuries are in any way the fault of the team, lol.

Quote from: Jesse on May 09, 2024, 05:41:25 PMI agree with everything but clawing back the money. Once you've paid that out, it's gone.

I also don't think off season injuries are in any way the fault of the team, lol.

I guess my thought on clawing back SMS$ for a player unable to complete his contract for non-football related issues is that the team giving the bonus does not gain any on field advantage from spending he money, and can pay a hefty cost on field in not having that $SMS available.

The team having to pay out the $$$ should be penalty enough.  Hamstringing the roster by losing the cap hit doesn't help anyone, including the league, because that team is less competitive.

This would only apply to the Argos if they sever ties altogether with Kelly.  If they hope to have him back this year, then they are gaining from that $SMS spend, and do not deserve one red cent in clawing back the bonus or $SMS relief.
 

Pinball after Argos practice:

Very surprised to hear the league permitted him to be present at practice.

EDIT: not surprised by Clemons' non-answers but I'm pretty sure that was intentional.

Quote from: gobombersgo on May 09, 2024, 06:57:38 PMPinball after Argos practice:

Can't imagine the Argos handling this situation any worse, total passive response with no proactive steps taken anywhere along the line to avert disaster.  It's as if nobody in the organizations cares whether the Argos function well or or not, on and off the field. Season ticket holders have reason to revolt and if Kelly has an opportunity to earn a decent living anywhere else in football, he may refuse to comply and just walk away from the league for good.

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 09, 2024, 04:39:08 PMMy point is that the total annual salary includes any pre payment. So in some cases it should be pro rated within the 18 game schedule. If that doesn't happen it can be a severe penalty to the team.

But why pick this one Kelly incident to bring up this novel idea?  It seems ridiculous that people are advocating extreme changes to SMS rules only now in light of the Kelly Situation(tm).

No one advocated for these changes when Durant shafted us, no one advocated for these changes when an abnormal number of 2022 TC players got mysterious achilles, no one advocated for these changes when all those players got DUIs, no one advocated for these changes when Lawler arguably shafted us on signing bonus value then missing 1/3 to 1/2 a season...

Yes, people moaned and groaned (especially the Durant issue) about the SMS shafting, but no one started saying the CFL should change the SMS rules just for us!

It really seems like it's all about Kelly being a superstar and the amount being so large ($300k).  But any SMS rules shouldn't depend on how good the player is, nor on how much some GM agreed to put out in advance!  They have to be fair and consistent across the board.  And any change should be well thought out, not some knee-jerk exception.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 09, 2024, 04:25:21 PMNot the same as $DD4 at all.

Kelly: douche shafted the team that paid him a bonus by being a general douche.
Durant: douche shafted the team that paid him a bonus by being a general douche.

Looks the same to me.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 09, 2024, 02:41:44 PMInjuries are part of football.  Bad behaviour is not.

Uh, have you read the CFL news this last decade?  Every single season there is some instance of "bad behavior".  In fact, last year it was us! (Lawler)

Quote from: Blue In BC on May 09, 2024, 02:28:04 PMWe've seen many players get injured in early TC and lost for the season ( achilles for example ). Some of those players had large signing bonus's involved. I don't see why the team should be penalized because money was paid early.

Whether it's $600K or $100K, it should be calculated in a pro rated basis.

And in every single case those achilles players bonuses hamstrung the teams' SMS.

If we're advocating for a whole new system, we should start a new thread and argue it without the Kelly Incident being the focal point.  And any change Ambrosie may make should exclude the Kelly Incident too.

I'm totally in favor of TOR getting shafted by this debacle.  Why should they be the ones who get the first special treatment?

Quote from: TecnoGenius on May 09, 2024, 08:24:41 PMBut why pick this one Kelly incident to bring up this novel idea?  It seems ridiculous that people are advocating extreme changes to SMS rules only now in light of the Kelly Situation(tm).

No one advocated for these changes when Durant shafted us, no one advocated for these changes when an abnormal number of 2022 TC players got mysterious achilles, no one advocated for these changes when all those players got DUIs, no one advocated for these changes when Lawler arguably shafted us on signing bonus value then missing 1/3 to 1/2 a season...

Yes, people moaned and groaned (especially the Durant issue) about the SMS shafting, but no one started saying the CFL should change the SMS rules just for us!

It really seems like it's all about Kelly being a superstar and the amount being so large ($300k).  But any SMS rules shouldn't depend on how good the player is, nor on how much some GM agreed to put out in advance!  They have to be fair and consistent across the board.  And any change should be well thought out, not some knee-jerk exception.

I'm not. I had the same argument last year about Lawler. His case happened long before 2023 and should have impacted the Elks in 2022, not the Bombers last year. It was a non football related issue.  I did also make that argument about early season injuries as well.

The suspension issue is a bit different. Let's use the Andrew Harris suspension for a PED which he denied and IIRC was proven not guilty?

That's essentially a potential issue where guilty before proven innocent.

There have been players injured in the off season playing basketball or some other normal human behaviour. Let's say a player signs a big new contract a day before free agency and then the next day slips on a banana peel on the street.

You don't think that should be an exception for a clawback?

Quote from: theaardvark on May 09, 2024, 02:21:24 PMIf they terminate his contract for cause, they should be able to claw back his bonus, and should be given relief on what they claw back. 

That case would make for more of an argument.  If TOR got the cash back from Kelly, then one could argue, maybe, for SMS relief, because the money actually wasn't spent.  (What's to keep Kelly from just saying he spent it all already?)

I'm not sure there's any sign any team has ever clawed back any signing bonus for any reason.

Quote from: theaardvark on May 09, 2024, 02:21:24 PMHave to wonder, post the Durant retirement, if teams are now including a "Durant clause" that is "if a player does not take a snap for the team after signing, his bonuses are considered monies accepted under false pretenses and must be returned".

Hehe, then Durant would have dressed and played and the second snap he takes he walks off the field saying he's retiring.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on May 09, 2024, 08:34:09 PMThat case would make for more of an argument.  If TOR got the cash back from Kelly, then one could argue, maybe, for SMS relief, because the money actually wasn't spent.  (What's to keep Kelly from just saying he spent it all already?)

I'm not sure there's any sign any team has ever clawed back any signing bonus for any reason.

Hehe, then Durant would have dressed and played and the second snap he takes he walks off the field saying he's retiring.

Yeah, not taking one snap is far to low a bar...  not sure how to word it best "best effort to complete the terms of the contract".  If he wants to come to camp and play himself off the team and let film of him sucking get distributed, so be it.

I am guessing no player in Durant's position will ever be offered up front money again... unless a team gets desperate.

On the other hand, the guy that ended up replacing Durant was.. Chris Streveler.   Had Durant shown up for camp and won the backup role, Bryan Bennett might have been our #3...

Wow.  Just finished the Pinball interview you guys posted.  He is NOT comfortable in that position, and was very hesitant and tentative with every answer.  Oh I bet he haaaaaaaaates Kelly for putting him in that boat!!! (Get it, boat, Argos...)

If Kelly wasn't a top-3 QB he'd probably can his butt.  As it stands, after this year he may still can his butt, or trade him off (probably the best scenario).  Unless Kelly wins another GC, of course...

Pinball is normally in full control in interviews and forcefully selling his vision.  Here, he's totally on his back foot.  I feel sorry for the guy.  The reporters (I think Scianitti was in there?) weren't pulling any punches either.  Asking some nice tough questions.  Pinball's deflection shows he could be a politician: "we're not here to answer those kinds of questions".  Haha.

Every other GM is watching Pinball squirm and being glad it's not them!

That said, Pinball did as good as one could do.  He didn't stick his foot in his mouth, or (alternatively) look like he was pandering too much.

So, I am wondering where we are at.

Kelly flatly denied any impropriety.

Coaches and front office backed him over the fired employee.

League office investigated and found enough evidence of wrongdoing that they imposed a minimum 9 game suspension.  Not a 9 game, but a minimum of 9 games.  Requiring the successful completion of a league mandated retraining.

No penalties for coaches or front office that allowed the action to take place, and who did not alert the league.

Pinball has spent decades building his brand, being a good guy and trying to build the Argos into a respected member of the league. 

And all that is dashed by one idiot with too good an arm to cut loose.

Now we are cursed with debate about whether Kelly belongs on the field, with team mates, in the community.  It seems like Pinball's idea that for him to change, he needs his boys around him.  Not sure that is the case, he needs to have some sort of time to actually be repentant and to relearn how to properly act around polite society.

Is Kelly giving the CFL some coverage in the US?  Seems like it. 

SI has him getting 6 games, https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/chad-kelly-argonauts-cfl-suspension

USA Today got the number of games right.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2024/05/07/cfl-suspends-chad-kelly-toronto-argonauts-gender-based-violence-policy/73603311007/

Yahoo SPort also ran a piece

https://sports.yahoo.com/ex-ole-miss-qb-and-denver-broncos-draft-pick-chad-kelly-suspended-at-least-nine-games-by-cfl-194253134.html



I had forgotten Kelly was "Mr. Irrelevant", the NFL's nickname for the last player taken in a draft.

Or the way he flamed out just as his opportunity with the Bronco's seemed to present itself, when he got drunk at a party and basically home invaded some strangers who fended him off with a vacuum cleaner.  Not sure which is more embarrassing, the fact he broke into someone's house drunk, or that he was fended off with a vacuum.

And the whole bit about Dinwiddie hearing about Kelly's concussion because his wife read about it on 3 down nation and the subsequent explanation that was the reason he didn't shake hands with the Als still doesn't ring true.  Was it ever confirmed he had a concussion, or was it just a tantrum?

They need to just cut him loose, like the Bronco's did, even though they were about to put him in after Keenum's 3-4 start.  Denver probably had worse issues at QB than the Argo's do, but they cut him...

Quote from: theaardvark on May 09, 2024, 08:54:52 PMYeah, not taking one snap is far to low a bar...  not sure how to word it best "best effort to complete the terms of the contract".  If he wants to come to camp and play himself off the team and let film of him sucking get distributed, so be it.

I am guessing no player in Durant's position will ever be offered up front money again... unless a team gets desperate.

On the other hand, the guy that ended up replacing Durant was.. Chris Streveler.   Had Durant shown up for camp and won the backup role, Bryan Bennett might have been our #3...

Pinball claims he didn't know these altercations were even taking place, don't know how that could be possible, but nonetheless he's the specific person that should have been on top of this situation and thrown a bucket of water on it early.  He may not like having to deal with this mess, but it's his job to manage his football team.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on May 10, 2024, 01:22:13 PMPinball claims he didn't know these altercations were even taking place, don't know how that could be possible, but nonetheless he's the specific person that should have been on top of this situation and thrown a bucket of water on it early.  He may not like having to deal with this mess, but it's his job to manage his football team.

Yup, the buck stops there.

He has to identify why he didn't know, who was responsible for not reporting the issue to him, where the communication breakdown happened.  Was it someone who was trying to protect Kelly?  Or was it a misguided attempt to protect Pinball not realizing that it actually would hurt him?  Or was it simply someone who did not know about the leagues commitment to safe work places.

The CFL found enough evidence to suspend him 9 games. This is not a "he said / she said" anymore.

At minimum, the entire Argos staff should need a refresher course in safe workplace 101.  Until Kelly completes the league mandated courses successfully, Pinball should not allow him to be with the team.  Kelly has to prove he understands what he did was wrong, drop the ability to appeal the suspension, and apologize to the fans, the team, Pinball and most importantly, the victim.  As long as Kelly denies the issue and if he appeals, then he has no place on a CFL field.

https://3downnation.com/2024/05/09/cfl-senior-content-manager-kristina-costabile-extremely-disappointed-chad-kelly-attended-argos-practice-while-suspended/

Pinball's legacy is now tarnished IMO

I feel every day that Kelly is in camp should not count as part of his suspension. I didn't see Lawler once last year during his suspension just in comparison. To be clear, Kelly is suspended for the 2 preseason games. Training camp is some kind of loophole? The whole Argo franchise disgusts me over this. They seem to believe that only winning will bring back fans despite much evidence to the contrary and will bend or break any rule they want to.

Quote from: Blueforlife on May 10, 2024, 05:34:52 PMhttps://3downnation.com/2024/05/09/cfl-senior-content-manager-kristina-costabile-extremely-disappointed-chad-kelly-attended-argos-practice-while-suspended/

Pinball's legacy is now tarnished IMO

Wow.  Just read this, and if he decides to appeal, he can fully practice with the team until an arbiter renders his judgement. Not sure who the arbiter will be, or how long that process takes.  Its an 87 page document we will never see, but shouldn't take an arbiter long to read and render judgement.

If Pinball wanted to start to rehabilitate his name, he would ask Kelly to prove he understands what he did was wrong, drop the ability to appeal the suspension, and apologize to the fans, the team, Pinball and most importantly, the victim.  If he does this, then he should also stay away from the team until he successfully completes his mandatory counselling sessions conducted by a gender-based violence expert and undergo assessments by an independent expert.

If Kelly decides not to do this, Pinball should immediately terminate his contract for cause, and sue him for the signing bonus back.

Ambrosie would also be justified in enforcing the suspension by not allowing any CFL team to offer or sign a contract with Kelly until the suspension is over, which could be forever if he does not complete his counselling and assessment.

Rip the freaking bandaid off, Pinball.  This situation is NOT going to get better, its just going to keep a focus on the Argos and Pinball protecting a scumbag with a good arm.

Quote from: Waffler on May 10, 2024, 05:44:55 PMI feel every day that Kelly is in camp should not count as part of his suspension. I didn't see Lawler once last year during his suspension just in comparison. To be clear, Kelly is suspended for the 2 preseason games. Training camp is some kind of loophole? The whole Argo franchise disgusts me over this. They seem to believe that only winning will bring back fans despite much evidence to the contrary and will bend or break any rule they want to.

Lawler's suspension was assessed by the team, and then he went on the suspended list as he was ineligible to work in Canada until his Visa issues were cleared up.

Apples and Orangutans.

Independent investigation corroborates three of six allegations against Kelly
https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960

Interesting that Naylor says the report was given to the Argos, but somehow Pinball says he never heard of the allegations until they were public.

Quote from: Freebird on May 10, 2024, 08:33:02 PMIndependent investigation corroborates three of six allegations against Kelly
https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960

Interesting that Naylor says the report was given to the Argos, but somehow Pinball says he never heard of the allegations until they were public.

They knew and swept under the rug until the rug was pulled out, now egg on face

Quote from: Freebird on May 10, 2024, 08:33:02 PMIndependent investigation corroborates three of six allegations against Kelly
https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960

Interesting that Naylor says the report was given to the Argos, but somehow Pinball says he never heard of the allegations until they were public.

The report is the independent one that the league had done after this was made public. It didn't exist until this all came out.

But the Argos 100% knew this was happening as it was happening.

https://3downnation.com/2024/05/10/bombers-branding-director-rheanne-marcoux-speaks-out-against-pinball-clemons-randy-ambrosie-for-mishandling-predator-chad-kelly/

The league looks bad here, very bad

Quote from: theaardvark on May 10, 2024, 06:27:45 AMThey need to just cut him loose, like the Bronco's did, even though they were about to put him in after Keenum's 3-4 start.  Denver probably had worse issues at QB than the Argo's do, but they cut him...

Boy, you must have been stewing all night about this topic!  I don't blame you, I've been giving it a lot of thought also.  I don't reach the same conclusions as you, but the whole situation is super big as far as CFL "scandals" go, and we're seeing many unprecedented things occurring.

It's a garbage situation for everyone, all over basic stupidity.  What a poopshow.  I bet we all wish it never happened.  Well... except for the part about us getting a free bingo spot in week 8...  8)  8)

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on May 10, 2024, 01:22:13 PMPinball claims he didn't know these altercations were even taking place, don't know how that could be possible, but nonetheless he's the specific person that should have been on top of this situation and thrown a bucket of water on it early.  He may not like having to deal with this mess, but it's his job to manage his football team.

He could be setting up Murphy as the scapegoat, to take the fall all alone.  Or he truly knew nothing, or was being protected.  Who knows.

https://3downnation.com/2024/05/10/cflpa-files-appeal-for-access-to-complete-87-page-independent-investigation-report-into-chad-kelly/

I urge everyone interested to read (carefully) the TSN article link posted already:
https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960

Kelly may be a DB, and definitely didn't act properly, but the general consensus on the gravity of what occurred appears to be overblown.  Even this article and the report are using contrived misdirections to get the emotional effect they want while the raw truth is obfuscated and brushed aside.

I'm in no way defending DB Kelly, but I am getting more annoyed at the extremely high penalty doled out and the way the allegations (and now "proof") against him are being misrepresented.  He's a mean-spirited "bad egg" with Manziel-Syndrome for sure.  But I have a severe dislike of the modern narrative-crafting so prevalent in our media and institutions.

Before you read the article or my diatribe, think about what you think in your mind, after reading all you have to date, that Kelly did.  Then read this new article and realize:

1. "According to the summary, investigators concluded Kelly did make persistent advances on the former coach, which constitute 'sexual harassment as defined by the Ontario Occupational Health and Safety Act.'"

This sleight of hand turns "persistent advances" into "sexual harassment", and then the entire rest of the article says nothing but "sexual harassment".  This is an appeal-to-emotion ploy because "sexual harassment" sounds so much scarier than "persistent advances".  I don't doubt the OOHSA does define the words as such, as that is the modern zeitgeist, but it's disingenuous to quietly equate them to start and then blast the emotionally-charged words "sexual harassment" over and over thereafter.

So the dude wouldn't take no for an answer.  He asked her out, asked her to come to his place, and (we're assuming she said no every time?) didn't stop.  Definite DB.  Definitely dumb in this day and age.  However, when you hear the words "sexual harassment" what first comes to mind?  Ya, probably worse than that.  Not an excuse, and not untrue (according to modern law), but realize the manipulation going on here.  I don't like media manipulation.

2. "Three other allegations investigated and documented in the report – that Kelly made public accusations about the former coach being involved with another Argonauts player, that Kelly threatened her, and that the quarterback was involved in the team's decision not to renew her contract – could not be corroborated by investigators."

So half of the allegations, including probably the most critical from a "Kelly bad" standpoint, verbal threats, could not be proven (no witnesses).  Thus we must assume the CFL didn't include them in the resulting punishment, and unless somehow proven in upcoming civil court trials, we must presume he is innocent of.

3. "The executive summary also supports two other allegations – that Kelly acted aggressively towards the former coach when confronted in the team breakfast room on the morning of Nov. 6, 2023, and that later that same day Kelly yelled derogatory words at the former coach."

So that's really one other incident, really, as they are "an hour later" as the article later states.  Someone gets you mad at breakfast and you're mad and moaning about it while eating then you get up and are still stewing, that's really one continuous incident in my books.  To me that changes the allegations from "3 of 6 proven" to "2 of 5" proven, which also doesn't look as good for the "Kelly bad" angle.

4. A major selling point of "Kelly bad" was the "bus thing", and it turns out that was BS and I think it actually makes the accuser look bad:

"On the allegation that Kelly made public accusations about the former coach being involved with a teammate on a team bus on Nov. 5, 2023, the report states the investigation found that 'while present and participating in the conversations, Kelly was reportedly not the source of the original comments.'"

So Kelly didn't even say the alleged comments, as proven by the investigators who clearly have multiple (bus) witnesses!  So strike another accusation off the list that Kelly never committed.

So now I have a question: if Kelly was to be (partially) ruined for that (1 of 6) allegations -- the "she's dating a team mate" -- then does the player who really said it now get investigated by the CFL and get suspensions?  If not, why not?  This is very important.  If it's bad when Kelly supposedly does it, then it's bad when any player does it.

But it gets worse:

"The morning after the conversation on the bus, the former coach confronted Kelly at the team breakfast area at BMO Field over what she heard he'd said on the bus the previous day."

She went to Kelly and accused him of something he didn't do, in public!  I'd be very angry myself if anyone (no matter who) started leveling untrue accusations at me.  This is a critical point the article is just glossing over.  And why did she go "confront" someone she was allegedly afraid of, who she was trying to dodge, and who admittedly made her feel intimidated?  Who does that?  Why didn't she go straight to her boss or Pinball right at that point?  It makes no sense given the narrative.

And whether the resulting exchange went like Kelly going into a "rage, throwing his plate down and screaming at her", or "he left the scene, feeling attacked and accused of something 'he did not do or say,'" becomes much less important.  If you falsely accuse someone then you should expect confrontation.  Tossing your breakfast to the floor and yelling is probably not the best idea, but if we heard this story but instead it was about Kelly vs Dukes, no one would bat an eye.  I don't like double standards.

"The investigators were not able to talk to any witnesses to that event but concluded that harassment took place."  "This exchange – shouting, swearing and making aggressive gestures..."

What if Kelly is right and she was yelling first?  Is that harassment of Kelly?  No witnesses, so "he said she said" so I have no idea how they justify the above, especially knowing that the accusation was false in the first place!  Or is the standard such that you must sit there and take it while someone else levels known-false accusations and (allegedly) yells at you after initiating the confrontation?  I guess Kelly "loses" because he can shout louder and looks more physically intimidating?

5. "Witnesses were interviewed in relation to another incident an hour later that same day, when Kelly allegedly yelled derogatory words at the former coach and stated that he could not wait until she was fired."

"Usama Mujtaba, who was sitting at the same table as the former coach, told investigators he remembered that Kelly looked at them and said, 'that b---h is no good at her job.'"

"Another Argos player, who was sitting two or three tables away having breakfast by himself, told investigators he remembered Kelly saying to Mujtaba 'f--k that b---h,' and then saying something about her being fired on his way out of the room."

Think about how these allegations were framed prior to this release: that Kelly was saying stuff like this to her face.  In fact, they are still framed that way in the article.  There is zero mention of finding of fact that Kelly ever said "bad words" directly to the accuser.  You can bet that if the investigators found such and instance it would have been front and center in the report.

So Kelly said dumb and "mean" things to his locker room pals.  Uh, does anyone know what kind of smack talk goes on in locker rooms?  It isn't rated G and it's not safe for toddlers.  Do you know how often a bunch of guys together are talking about ladies?  It's not always sugar and spice.  I'm not saying it's good or right, but it just is.  Are they going to suspend any player that says the B word about a lady in a locker room going forward?  The precedent is set.  Good luck with that.

6. "'Shouting, swearing and making demeaning comments toward [the former coach] constitutes harassment,' the summary reads. 'The allegation is supported.'"

Define "toward".  Are they conflating the breakfast incident with this one-hour-later one?  To me "toward" means "in the presence of and aimed at".  But I guess they could mean "pertaining to".  It would be nice to have this clarified.  So I guess any player saying a swear or other "demeaning comments" about any woman at any time even if they are miles away is defined as "harassment" under these rules and the player is subject to suspension?  Again, good luck with that.

7. "On the allegation of Kelly making threats toward the former coach, the summary says that in the week leading up to the East Division Final on Nov. 11, an Argonauts player told [the former coach] that a teammate had told him that Kelly had said, "That b---h is lucky I didn't hit her.'"

"'Kelly denied making any such comment. Attempts were made to interview [the player who allegedly heard the comment]; however, he refused to participate in the investigation,' the summary states."

That's textbook hearsay and completely useless legally.  Worse, even if 100% true, the allegation is Kelly made the threat to a 3rd party, not to the accuser!  And the statement is not even a direct threat, which is clearly defined by law.  Maybe a veiled threat, but that's not illegal.  Again, think about what your mind thought of when you first heard "made threats".  It wasn't this.  I'm not excusing it, it's not proper workplace behavior, but it's not what we all thought it was.

8. "The former coach filed an amended lawsuit on April 2 in Ontario Superior Court in Toronto. [...]She is seeking $80,000 from Kelly and a total of $85,714 from the Argonauts."

Very interesting.  Assuming the $400k number we initially heard she was asking of the Argos was correct, she has amended her suit and reduced the Argos ask to a measly $86k?  Why?  If she had asked for that initially, maybe they would have just paid her off and NDA'd the entire debacle and saved the whole world the trouble.


In sum, to me it doesn't add up to 9 games as it's nowhere near as "bad sounding" as the initial reports and forum posts (on 3 different forums) made it out to be.  Basically, he made advances and was rejected but persisted, and he complained to his friends about it with bad words, and he got angry when she (proven) falsely accused him.  That it's.  That's all.  That's worth 9 games?

The first point clearly (well, usually) requires a male/female dynamic, but the second and third can be between any pair of players or coaches.  My question is: will similar male/male scenarios be treated the same way: with multi-game suspensions?

Finally, if we look at the count of proven allegations -- 3 (or I say 2) -- the suspension math works out to either 3 games per count, or 4.5 games per count.  So 3 or 4.5 game suspension going forward for any player making persistent advances at a colleague.  And 3 or 4.5 games suspension going forward for any player saying bad words behind a colleague's back or tossing a plate and yelling.  If that's the new standard, I want it equally applied across the board!  Welcome to the new CFL.

Quote from: Blueforlife on May 11, 2024, 04:07:53 AMhttps://3downnation.com/2024/05/10/cflpa-files-appeal-for-access-to-complete-87-page-independent-investigation-report-into-chad-kelly/

Ya, I should hope so after what I just ranted about.

On a much lighter note, I find it hilarious the PI firm is "Saskatchewan-based firm Buckingham Security Services Ltd".  I can't really picture mysterious, trenchcoat-clad, magnifying-glass-toting types coming from Sask.  I guess business investigating crop circles and cow tipping was slow this time of year?

Then again, it could all make sense if the PIs were massive Greenies, as all Saskies are, eh?  1 team down, 7 to go!  ;)  ;)  ;)  :D  :D  ;D  ;D

Techno I don't agree with much of what you said here.  It's clear he did some nasty stuff, wouldn't be suspended this long if that wasn't the case.  Your take is off base imo.  We will never know the truth but sounds like we don't need to know the exact situation to pass some serious judgment about Kelly, Argos management and the CFL for taking so long on this.

This new information also shines light on the bad-sounding statement from Murphy (I think).  I can't find the quote right at the moment, but it's in the record somewhere on the forum(s).  Murphy allegedly told the accuser something like "you should have brought it to me first".

When I first heard that, I thought, like I bet many did, that he was trying to do a "cover up".  As in, "I'm sorry you went to the lawyers instead of coming to me so I could cover it all up".

But, what if, instead, he said that after she came to him about being yelled at by Kelly at breakfast?  The new information says she initiated a confrontation with Kelly about the bus talk.  What if Murphy's comment was about that?  As in: "you should have come to me to deal with the douche instead of trying to confront him yourself".

This would actually be the correct course of action and the correct advice from Murphy.  Whether this theory is correct would depend on exactly when the statement was made.  If it was well after the legal action was initiated, then I'm wrong.  But if it was her first talk with Murphy regarding the breakfast fracas then it changes everything.

I'm starting to get whiffs of careful narrative crafting, and selective and well-timed releases of information designed to inflict maximum damage on Kelly/Argos in the public eye.  Not positive yet, but the whole thing is starting to smell.

If so, then the question becomes "why?".  Normally the league does everything possible to pander to TOR/MLSE.  Why would they go the extra mile to destroy them?  It really makes no sense.  They could have given Kelly 3-4 games plus all the conditions and most punters would have been satisfied.  Why the extreme result?  What's the real motive?

Quote from: TecnoGenius on May 11, 2024, 04:38:31 AMI urge everyone interested to read (carefully) the TSN article link posted already:
https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/dave-naylor-independent-investigation-corroborates-three-of-six-allegations-against-chad-kelly-1.2118960

Kelly may be a DB, and definitely didn't act properly, but the general consensus on the gravity of what occurred appears to be overblown.  Even this article and the report are using contrived misdirections to get the emotional effect they want while the raw truth is obfuscated and brushed aside.

I'm in no way defending DB Kelly, but I am getting more annoyed at the extremely high penalty doled out and the way the allegations (and now "proof") against him are being misrepresented.  He's a mean-spirited "bad egg" with Manziel-Syndrome for sure.  But I have a severe dislike of the modern narrative-crafting so prevalent in our media and institutions.

Before you read the article or my diatribe, think about what you think in your mind, after reading all you have to date, that Kelly did.  Then read this new article and realize:

1. "According to the summary, investigators concluded Kelly did make persistent advances on the former coach, which constitute 'sexual harassment as defined by the Ontario Occupational Health and Safety Act.'"

This sleight of hand turns "persistent advances" into "sexual harassment", and then the entire rest of the article says nothing but "sexual harassment".  This is an appeal-to-emotion ploy because "sexual harassment" sounds so much scarier than "persistent advances". 

Techno, I started reading and stopped here. I am certainly not a legal expert (and I surmise you aren't either) but what this is saying is that his actions constitute sexual harassment as defined by a law in Ontario (the Ontario Occupational Health and Safety Act, which I googled) and was passed in 1990. It's not new. These have been the laws of the land even before the so called keyboard warriors declared war on the "woke agenda" which is how you post veers. Sexual harassment takes many forms and this is one of them and seemingly has been for the last 34 years where Kelly committed the acts.

Your midnight deep dive also assumes many things that may or may not be true. For example you suggest that: "So half of the allegations, including probably the most critical from a "Kelly bad" standpoint, verbal threats, could not be proven (no witnesses).  Thus we must assume the CFL didn't include them in the resulting punishment, and unless somehow proven in upcoming civil court trials, we must presume he is innocent of."

It is you that should stop assuming things. What is the burden of proof in this process? Is it the balance of probabilities like civil court, it is beyond a reasonable doubt like criminal court, or something else? I don't know. You obviously don't know. But if it is lesser, than yes, it's probably within reason to determine he did those things even if the level of proof isn't satisfactory to you, personally.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on May 11, 2024, 06:57:33 AMThis new information also shines light on the bad-sounding statement from Murphy (I think).  I can't find the quote right at the moment, but it's in the record somewhere on the forum(s).  Murphy allegedly told the accuser something like "you should have brought it to me first".

When I first heard that, I thought, like I bet many did, that he was trying to do a "cover up".  As in, "I'm sorry you went to the lawyers instead of coming to me so I could cover it all up".

But, what if, instead, he said that after she came to him about being yelled at by Kelly at breakfast?  The new information says she initiated a confrontation with Kelly about the bus talk.  What if Murphy's comment was about that?  As in: "you should have come to me to deal with the douche instead of trying to confront him yourself".

This would actually be the correct course of action and the correct advice from Murphy.  Whether this theory is correct would depend on exactly when the statement was made.  If it was well after the legal action was initiated, then I'm wrong.  But if it was her first talk with Murphy regarding the breakfast fracas then it changes everything.

I'm starting to get whiffs of careful narrative crafting, and selective and well-timed releases of information designed to inflict maximum damage on Kelly/Argos in the public eye.  Not positive yet, but the whole thing is starting to smell.

If so, then the question becomes "why?".  Normally the league does everything possible to pander to TOR/MLSE.  Why would they go the extra mile to destroy them?  It really makes no sense.  They could have given Kelly 3-4 games plus all the conditions and most punters would have been satisfied.  Why the extreme result?  What's the real motive?

I'm not sure what you were reading or assumptions you were making before this report came out. This confirmed exactly what we were told happened. It also admitted that a couple offences were unable to be confirmed because witnesses either weren't able to be contacted or refused to cooperate.

If this was a DI WR or a Nat ST player, he would have been gone day one.  The initial complain probably is enough, and she still has her job, and no black eye for Pinball or the league.

The facts are, it happened, and the Argos chose their top player over his victim, and did their best to cover it up and sweep it under the rug.

I really don't think Pinball knew, but he should have.  Yes, it is possible to do all these things without the boss finding out, but not if he is involved and conscious of what is going on at all levels.

That said, a CEO always surrounds himself with people he can trust and rely upon.  In this case, it looks like Pinball made some bad decisions on that level of his staff.  And the incident and subsequent cover up was contained below him.

But, as he said in his presser, he's responsible, and if his actions allowed this to happen, its on him.

His big mistake, as far as I am concerned, is allowing Kelly anywhere near the team until the minimum of having mea culpa'd and completed his mandated training.

Kelly is too arrogant to ever apologize on his own, and I'd be surprised if he completes his courses.  He will appeal.  It will cost the league legal fees, and an even bigger black eye.

We are already seeing people saying they will protest games that he is in the stadium for, even if he isn't dressed.  In a gate driven league, that has been building a more diverse fan base, the last thing you need is a group of protesters picketing your games.

He's just a player, who may have a good arm but is not a good person.  The CFL needs good people.  He's bad for the league, he's already taken Pinball out with his actions.  How much more damage should he be allowed to cause.

This is not a criminal case, where "beyond a reasonable doubt" comes into play.  This is a civil and contract case, and there is clearly more than enough evidence to suspend him, and the league has left the Argos with the task of dealing with him.

The fact he was allowed into the practice was dumb.  World class dumb.  No upside for anyone, and now the Argos are complicit.  And Kelly is thumbing his nose at the women who work in and support the league. 

This is going to get a lot worse, to the point where cutting him will be the only option, and even that won't fix the Argo's horrible PR problem.

Sorry Techno, but repeatedly pursuing the female coach to go out with him or to go over to his place after she has repeatedly rejected his offers IS sexual harassment, period.

Quote from: Horseman on May 11, 2024, 02:42:12 PMSorry Techno, but repeatedly pursuing the female coach to go out with him or to go over to his place after she has repeatedly rejected his offers IS sexual harassment, period.

It is, and it is exponentially increased when it is done by someone in power over you. 

That's the Weinstein effect.  The star player on the team is harassing you, you report it with no relief, and then get "fired".

This is why he needs to take re-training on how to act in polite society, and that there is no difference if it is in a 5 star dining establishment or a locker room.  Respect is respect.

Apology, successful completion of courses, expressed remorse.  Or cut.  In my eyes, only two options.  And the later is the only sure way to prevent it again (he is NOT a first time offender)

Quote from: theaardvark on May 11, 2024, 06:10:07 PMIt is, and it is exponentially increased when it is done by someone in power over you. 

That's the Weinstein effect.  The star player on the team is harassing you, you report it with no relief, and then get "fired".

This is why he needs to take re-training on how to act in polite society, and that there is no difference if it is in a 5 star dining establishment or a locker room.  Respect is respect.

Apology, successful completion of courses, expressed remorse.  Or cut.  In my eyes, only two options.  And the later is the only sure way to prevent it again (he is NOT a first time offender)

Factually not true, contract expired not renewed.

The argument Techno makes is riddled with assumptions.   Kelly is a bad egg and deserves the suspension and more.   Coach O'shea made some interesting comments about how we should be considering how women who work in the league feel about Kelly's behaviour. 

Also, Milt Stegall feels he deserves a full suspension and I don't always agree with his take on things, however on this one I do.   Kelly is not bigger than the CFL and needs to suffer the consequences as a result of his entitled white male misogyny.....there is no justification or defence for his conduct.

The Argos as an organization need to "do better"

https://winnipegsun.com/sports/be-better-cfl-bombers-staff-call-out-handling-of-chad-kelly-affair

Looks like public criticism of the Argos allowing Kelly to participate has forced their hand....

There was a backlash of comments from many of the female employees from the CFL including from the Bombers, who were offended that Kelly was participating with the Argos rookie training camp.
Mike O'Shea commented that he felt all women in the CFL's employ need to feel that they are working in a safe work environment and it was important to recognize their take on the situation, not particularly his,   I agree.

https://3downnation.com/2024/05/12/qb-chad-kelly-not-participating-in-team-activities-toronto-argonauts/

Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on May 12, 2024, 03:36:58 PMLooks like public criticism of the Argos allowing Kelly to participate has forced their hand....

There was a backlash of comments from many of the female employees from the CFL including from the Bombers, who were offended that Kelly was participating with the Argos rookie training camp.
Mike O'Shea commented that he felt all women in the CFL's employ need to feel that they are working in a safe work environment and it was important to recognize their take on the situation, not particularly his,   I agree.

https://3downnation.com/2024/05/12/qb-chad-kelly-not-participating-in-team-activities-toronto-argonauts/

Smart move by the Argos but why they didn't do this earlier and initiate it on their own is a mystery and a bad decision.  Bowing to public pressure to deal with the problem is not a good look.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on May 12, 2024, 04:16:33 AMFactually not true, contract expired not renewed.

Hence the "" around "fired".  She had been renewed a number of times, he thing that was different this time was that she had made a complaint...

Quote from: TecnoGenius on May 10, 2024, 04:51:00 AMIf Kelly wasn't a top-3 QB he'd probably can his butt.  As it stands, after this year he may still can his butt, or trade him off (probably the best scenario).  Unless Kelly wins another GC, of course...

Kelly only helped win the Grey Cup in 2022 in a backup role off the bench when Argo's starter went down in that game. If Bethel-Thompson does not crater in that game (think it was called an injury....who knows it that was the truth?), Bombers probably win that game. I would not call less than half a game him "winning" the Grey Cup. Not sure how much backup work he did during the regular season for the Argos. Bethel-Thompson surely took a high percentage of the snaps that season.

Following year Kelly becomes the main man after Bethel-Thompson bolts for some mickey mouse league, wins league MVP, then royally stinks the joint out in the second half vs the Alouettes in the Eastern Final. A thing of "beauty" it was too! :D I believe based on the timeframe I have read of the allegations his nonsense with that trainer occurred just before the Eastern Final last year (I could be wrong). This is why his head maybe was not in the game and he threw up easy interceptions like shooting fish in a barrel!

The guy has talent, but seems obvious he can be thrown off his game if he is not mentally into it. This entire fiasco may end his career in the CFL. Maybe he can pull off a Michael Vick rebound although Vick was convicted of a crime (dog fighting rings & gambling) and served time before coming back to the NFL. Vick was never quite the same player after returning. Just like that Houston Texans QB who went to Cleveland. They signed him for a crazy ton of money and he is stinking the joint out so far. I sometimes wonder how these NFL GM's get their jobs as signing that clown had warning signs all over it!! ;)

In retrospect Brady Olivera got shafted for the MOP award last year. A total difference in character from Kelly the LOSER! They should revoke that award like the IOC does with cheating Russians or whomever grossly shames themselves in the Olympics and give it to someone more deserving!

Quote from: theaardvark on May 10, 2024, 04:56:01 PMYup, the buck stops there.

USA President Harry Truman could not have said it any better!! THE BUCK STOPS AT THE TOP!! Take responsibility and action or give up your position Pinball.

https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/trivia/buck-stops-here-sign



To be fair, Kelly has been CONVICTED or JUDGED about nothing yet except in the court of public opinion and many allegations. EVERYONE deserves their day in court whether we like it or not. That is what our justice system is built around. Railroading anyone even if it looks cut and dried is not something I would condone on anyone. Maybe if he loses his civil case the Argos will do something more....I have no clue.

Mini Mack Heron and Jim Thorpe were tossed out for life in the early 70's by the Bombers for some dope issues (maybe more than that-some criminal behaviour?). Bernie Ruoff canned over pot after 1979 season! That looks so ridiculous in todays day and age where I see pot shops on almost every street corner! :D People forget that is how Trevor Kennerd and Bob Cameron got kicking/punting jobs in 1980 with the Bombers since Ruoff was canned and went to the Tiger Cats afterwards for many more years.

Quote from: Waffler on May 10, 2024, 05:44:55 PMI feel every day that Kelly is in camp should not count as part of his suspension. I didn't see Lawler once last year during his suspension just in comparison. To be clear, Kelly is suspended for the 2 preseason games. Training camp is some kind of loophole? The whole Argo franchise disgusts me over this. They seem to believe that only winning will bring back fans despite much evidence to the contrary and will bend or break any rule they want to.

Toronto has suddenly become LOSER city with it's pro sports teams. Leafs crash and burn AGAIN in the playoffs. CRaptors stunk the joint out last two seasons. Jays are terrible this year and probably won't even make a wildcard spot. Argos in major doldrums now. Toronto FC seem to be the only hopeful team on the horizon this year for sports fans in Toronto!

When Argos had Doug Flutie, arguably the best player the CFL has ever seen the Argos still did not draw great crowds unless it was  the labour day weekend rivalry or playoffs. Too many wannabe Americans in Toronto who think ONLY THE NFL is worth watching when I see way too many 6-3 games every year during the NFL season....snore! ;) Only a few teams worth watching in the NFL due to long history or great players/teams (KC, Dallas, used to be New England, Forty Niners, Bills, Packers). I follow the Vikes as their old head coach was Bud Grant, but they have NEVER won the Super Bowl yet after 4 tries. DA MIKE DITKA BEARS (The Fridge, Jim McMahon) had some characters and even a popular rap song in 1985! :D A lot of over hype and mega cash involved down there. Of course everyone wants to play down there as could be set for life with the paydays down south and who can blame players with short careers.

Football to Americans is like hockey to us Canadians...they think it is THEIR game when the rest of the world is close to catching up if not surpassing them at times.

I don't know if the rest of the world has passed the Americans in producing football talent, the best football players still come out of US schools and programs, hands down/not even close. Yes, some Canadians are making it south of the border, but there's more football players produced in Florida than in all of Canada combined x 100!!

Kelly has not been convicted of anything in regards to these issues, no.

But sufficient evidence has been uncovered to suspend him a minimum of half a season, and could be permanent is he does not successfully complete his courses. 

This is not a court of law, and conviction in one has a very high standard to meet, and for very good reason.

This is a tribunal about whether a player with toxic tendencies should be allowed to play in a league that prides itself on its stance on diversity and protection of the rights of women.

Playing in the CFL is not a right, but rather a privilege.  As of this moment, while Kelly may have proven to have the talent to play here. he has not proven himself worthy of that privilege from a purely human standpoint.

Conduct is a large part of the CFL.  Marino lost that privilege on the field with his actions.  Kelly has lost it off the field.  It looks like they want to give him the same chances they gave Manzeil, although I do not know why.  The league should have learned from that instance, leopards do not change their spots, and all we got from that was disappointment.

Quote from: dd on May 14, 2024, 02:55:08 AMI don't know if the rest of the world has passed the Americans in producing football talent, the best football players still come out of US schools and programs, hands down/not even close. Yes, some Canadians are making it south of the border, but there's more football players produced in Florida than in all of Canada combined x 100!!

I was more referring to the brand/style of football, not football players per se. To me the CFL game is more exciting and wide open compared to the average NFL regular season game. Playoffs they are a closer comparison as best on best at that time. Many dudes I know only follow the NFL because they gamble on it....don't follow it much otherwise as just a Fairweather fan. Do you like 6-3 snooze fests? Only if outstanding defence involved, but usually it's due to ineptitude or horrible QB play! ;)

It is obvious American colleges produce more players than the rest of the world combined. That I don't dispute and training much better down south (+ lucrative scholarships and even sponsorships now) although I think Canada's university and junior football has grown leaps and bounds in the last 10-20 years training wise. Canada just does not have the same following or money involved for college ball like down south so the money will always be an issue here for our football programs.

Agree. CFL game is far more entertaining and fun to watch plus given a 9 team league, you can get to know the teams fairly well. The NFL kicking game is horrible. Let's watch a kicker kickoff through the end zone one more time!! What a waste of time! Talk about pointless. Just spot the ball on the 20 and forget kickoffs. And punts, love to watch the free catch/ no return all the time——not!! I don't watch the nfl at all during regular season and only tune in during playoffs. Way too boring to watch, snooze fest is right!!

Quote from: dd on May 16, 2024, 03:21:02 AMAgree. CFL game is far more entertaining and fun to watch plus given a 9 team league, you can get to know the teams fairly well. The NFL kicking game is horrible. Let's watch a kicker kickoff through the end zone one more time!! What a waste of time! Talk about pointless. Just spot the ball on the 20 and forget kickoffs. And punts, love to watch the free catch/ no return all the time——not!! I don't watch the nfl at all during regular season and only tune in during playoffs. Way too boring to watch, snooze fest is right!!

I know they tweaked the kickoff rules in the NFL for the upcoming season, but don't think it will change too much. A total waste of time 90% of kickoffs as with the legs most kickers have now and team strategies they just boot it through the end zone. TOTAL WASTE OF MY TIME to watch such nonsense! ;) Bathroom or beverage break for kickoffs. Surprised the networks even show them! :D I've been harping on the uselessness of NFL kickoffs for many seasons already. Such a joke.

Punting not much better. Fair catch rules. The odd time a returner gets some room and takes it to the house or a big return. The return games are not featured much in NFL ball outside you better have a very accurate field goal kicker and a punter who does not often shank.

Kick through the end zone / fair catch are lame.  But, like watching 3 hours of cars turning left, when the pileup occurs, that's excitement.

Rarely on kickoffs does a kicker shank it short, but it can happen.  More often, a returner flubbs a fair catch.

Not saying the standard execution of these plays is exciting, or endorsing them over CFL rulez, but its not 100% boring.  Just 99%

I've never been a fan of Pinball Clemons and his handling of this issue hasn't done anything to make me to change my mind. I know some folks really like him but I've always considered him a bit of a phoney. His attempts to talk around this issue and his fake emotions about the young woman at the centre of the storm have been disingenuous His "If you want to blame someone, blame me" statement smacks of false bravado. It's not about you, Pinball. We just want to know why you're handling the issue the way you have, which is poorly in my opinion.

Argo's sign Arbuckle.

Quote from: J5V on May 17, 2024, 10:18:56 PMI've never been a fan of Pinball Clemons and his handling of this issue hasn't done anything to make me to change my mind. I know some folks really like him but I've always considered him a bit of a phoney. His attempts to talk around this issue and his fake emotions about the young woman at the centre of the storm have been disingenuous His "If you want to blame someone, blame me" statement smacks of false bravado. It's not about you, Pinball. We just want to know why you're handling the issue the way you have, which is poorly in my opinion.

I met Pinball once, thought he was a pretty good guy, and thought he was better than this. He clearly dropped the ball on this and nothing he can say at this point in time really means anything. Actions speak louder than words, especially after the fact when it came out in the media.

Looks like the Argos don't expect to have Chad around... they just signed Arbuckle...

Quote from: theaardvark on May 23, 2024, 07:21:00 PMLooks like the Argos don't expect to have Chad around... they just signed Arbuckle...

For at least nine games. LOL

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on May 23, 2024, 07:23:07 PMFor at least nine games. LOL

He could appeal... this suggests he will not.

This is going to gift Pinball $300k in cap space, less 50% of any advances...

Quote from: theaardvark on May 23, 2024, 07:21:00 PMLooks like the Argos don't expect to have Chad around... they just signed Arbuckle...

It looks like the Argos finally convinced Kelly to shut up and stay off social media, or he'd be going all out defending himself. Good on 'em.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on May 24, 2024, 04:47:41 PMIt looks like the Argos finally convinced Kelly to shut up and stay off social media, or he'd be going all out defending himself. Good on 'em.

Yeah, I bet they gave him the option of shut up or be cut.  Until the counselling has been completed and the suspension is over, I can imagine he's on the "No Sign List" for other teams should he get cut by the Argos.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/cfl/lawsuit-argos-chad-kelly-settled-1.7224682

So what do the Argos and the league do now with Kelly? Still keep him suspended and make him take counselling or lower the suspension length? Dude still needs some anger management or understanding of workplace harassment issues. The issue has been settled with the accuser now so he can probably appeal much like Lemon in Montreal. Depends on how clear cut the CFL HR policy is around his alleged harassment.

Kelly sees the field anytime soon it will be a PR disaster. You thought you saw empty seats at there soccer stadium you just wait...

Quote from: ichabod_crane on June 06, 2024, 05:22:01 AMSo what do the Argos and the league do now with Kelly? Still keep him suspended and make him take counselling or lower the suspension length?

The settlement has no bearing on the suspension.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on June 06, 2024, 01:21:13 PMThe settlement has should have no bearing on the suspension.

Fixed it for you.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on June 06, 2024, 01:21:13 PMThe settlement has will have no bearing on the suspension.

The suspension was for actions, and has set conditions for it ending at 9 games.  It was not appealed.  If he does not successfully complete his training and convince a professional in that field that he is ready to move forward, then the suspension continues until he does so, at which time the league can decide what to do.  There is no reason that if he takes too long, or is not convincing enough, or says/tweets/posts anything that suggests he thinks he did nothing wrong, that the league cannot extend his suspension.

This is not a black and white matter.  I didn't see anywhere that settling the case through arbitration included any statement / apology / admission of guilt/wrongdoing.  Settling can be used to avoid these admissions, and can include NDA's.

Kelly will remain suspended for the fist half the season, and maybe longer pending his actions and the league accepting his remorse/repentance/commitment to change.   

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 06, 2024, 02:39:46 PMFixed it for you.

(https://i.gifer.com/origin/a3/a3fc46493ff362be2b616d9db1fa5498_w200.gif)

https://torontosun.com/sports/football/cfl/toronto-argonauts/argos-figuring-how-to-deal-with-kelly