Concerned About the 35s Change Ruining the Final 3 Minutes?

[Sir Blue and Gold]

But Unca Brosie was very forthcoming in that interview with actual answers to things and an actual attempt to anticipate fan angst and address it.  At least to the best of his ability within the confines of having to not blow his NDA on what he's forbidden to discuss.

And you know what, basically everything he says there came to pass and everything he said wouldn't, wouldn't.  At least not on his watch.

Ambrosie is like my grandpa (was) -- an old guy you feel has your interest at heart and understands -- because he literally was one of us, and even more so because he was a NAT player too!  Johnston is more like the sleazy used Yugo/Lada salesman cousin you have.  You just KNOW he's lying.  The misdirection and lying by omission from him is off the charts, like he straight out of Langley.

You are throwing a tantrum because you don't like the news that's been delivered. No one is lying to you. They very clearly stated what they're going to do through 2027. They told you in speech, then they gave you a website page AND FAQ AND video.

They believe it will lead to a more exciting game and a more profitable business. Johnson went out of his way to not lie by declining to answer questions on future rule changes that they may or may not do.

Relax.

[blue_gold_84]

Yes, I haven't heard from anyone that's willing to change the last 3 minutes of the halfs including Johnston, everyone realizes it's value, the details are TBD.

Was Johnston even asked about that? I can't recall. But the fact that he was unable to give a concrete answer on the three downs question makes me wonder how committed he is to anything when it comes to maintaining the unique identity of the CFL.

[TecnoGenius]

You are throwing a tantrum because you don't like the news that's been delivered.

Tantrum?  I don't think there's anyone else trying to logically and rationally break down the arguments and reasoning being put forth from Commish (and CFL and media) more than me.  A tantrum would be just yelling curse words and saying I'm quitting my ST.  That's not me.

And you're putting words in my mouth: I haven't yet said how I feel about each change.  Maybe a couple, as the opportunity arises.  (My only real beef is with the 110Y, to set the record straight.)

What I am miffed about is the way this is being done, the specious arguments and gaslighting utilized, and the smarmy fake way the Commish is talking about it.  And I have every right to be because it's insulting to intelligent people.

No one is lying to you. They very clearly stated what they're going to do through 2027. They told you in speech, then they gave you a website page AND FAQ AND video.

They are lying.  Lying by omission.  Because they are making people feel like the stated changes are the "big ones" and that only details remain to be hashed out.  They are failing to tell us the end goal they clearly have in mind, or the real rationale behind the changes.  I have destroyed the argument for most of them, so what are the real reasons?  That's not honesty, that's obfuscation through sophistry.

I'm glad you feel satisfied by what has been heretofore proffered.  I am not.

[TecnoGenius]

Was Johnston even asked about that?

He talked directly to the final-3 concerns in the CJME interview I posted a link to previously.  It's worth a listen.  He offered nothing of value other than it's the main concern people seem to have post-conference.

[Waffler]

I am willing to try all the rule changes. Worse comes to worse we can undo them. Field alterations? This is the day the Canadian game dies. How long it will be on life support is the only question. Minor league American football here we come! Fully modernized.

[blue_gold_84]

He talked directly to the final-3 concerns in the CJME interview I posted a link to previously.  It's worth a listen.  He offered nothing of value other than it's the main concern people seem to have post-conference.

Seems like his MO as commissioner thus far.

Not even six months on the job but he acts like he knows what's best. No wonder his aggressive approach has ruffled so many feathers.

[TecnoGenius]

I am willing to try all the rule changes. Worse comes to worse we can undo them. Field alterations?

That's the huge risk with the field alterations (100Y change), once they do it, it will be virtually impossible to undo.  Everything else can be changed back if it becomes clear the Commish is a trojan horse (he can always be ousted).  But once they've spent $1.5M each on 2 new stadium turfs (plus who knows what else on Usports/highschool fields), and/or modified or built new stadiums that no longer accommodate a 110Y field, then that ship will have sailed forever.

And that's what "they" want.  They love radical change that locks you into a whole new paradigm.  Then shift the overton window to the next completely "taboo" topics that everyone swears right now "define the Canadian game" (like 3 downs).

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Seems like his MO as commissioner thus far.

Not even six months on the job but he acts like he knows what's best. No wonder his aggressive approach has ruffled so many feathers.

As a alleged "CFL fan" that didn't play the game how much understanding of the clock did Johnston have before taking on the job?  His biggest complaint of the game he mentioned was the last minute took 10 minutes to play.  To me that suggests the game was exciting and down to the wire and they weren't just wasting time, he was more concerned with getting the game over with and getting on with his busy day.

[theaardvark]

Listening to his interview on WST, the clock is not completely decided upon, except it is 35 seconds from dead ball to snap.

Presently, it is 20 after the ball is whistled in, and he said they have stats that show that it is about 15 seconds on average to whistle it in.  Makes 35 seconds.  Sometimes its whistled in in 12 seconds, sometimes in 22, so this makes it always 35, not 32 sometimes, or 42 sometimes...

Now, how tempo changes, how substitutions happen, these will be works in progress, and we will have to see how we work them out.

[bomb squad]

Tantrum?  I don't think there's anyone else trying to logically and rationally break down the arguments and reasoning being put forth from Commish (and CFL and media) more than me.  A tantrum would be just yelling curse words and saying I'm quitting my ST.  That's not me.

And you're putting words in my mouth: I haven't yet said how I feel about each change.  Maybe a couple, as the opportunity arises.  (My only real beef is with the 110Y, to set the record straight.)

What I am miffed about is the way this is being done, the specious arguments and gaslighting utilized, and the smarmy fake way the Commish is talking about it.  And I have every right to be because it's insulting to intelligent people.

They are lying.  Lying by omission.  Because they are making people feel like the stated changes are the "big ones" and that only details remain to be hashed out.  They are failing to tell us the end goal they clearly have in mind, or the real rationale behind the changes.  I have destroyed the argument for most of them, so what are the real reasons?  That's not honesty, that's obfuscation through sophistry.

I'm glad you feel satisfied by what has been heretofore proffered.  I am not.

Anybody who has any intelligence knows the reason. It's to increase revenue. So, yes making the game more entertaining should increase your customer base and increase revenues. I, personally, have absolutely no problem with that. In fact, I agree with that position and fully support it. I love this league and the joy and pleasure it provides for me. Great. Win for me. But, I also realize there are people providing this for me who are not winning. I don't like that. I also hate seeing so many empty seats in the stands. I want this league to be successful. It isn't right now, and hasn't been for a long time. That has to change. 

This league also suffers from a perception problem. I think the impetus for some of these changes is to change perception. I know many like to bring up the US angle, but it's mainly right here in Canada.

So, why don't they just say these things? I can kind of understand why. Saying, "we're doing it make more money" just doesn't play well in the public domain. Just the nature of the beast. Similar thing for "we want to change the perception". How do you say 'our league isn't perceived well" without making the league and yourselves look weak?

I'm fine with the game and the rules as they are. Those things that "bug" people about them, don't bug me. Those things that make people not take the league seriously, I don't understand why. But, I do hear them. And I hear them a lot. So does the league hear them. Everybody does. That does bug me, because I know that's a big reason why those seats are empty.

So, that's my take on the real why here. Will the changes help? We'll see I guess. Does it hurt to try? Maybe. It's a big risk they're taking. In fact, they may be risking everything. But, they've made the decision and I don't think anything anybody says is going to get them to change their minds. They are all in here.

I am going to carry on supporting the league regardless. To be honest, and I know I'm going against the grain here, I am kind of excited to see how these changes play out. 

[gobombersgo]

Listening to his interview on WST, the clock is not completely decided upon, except it is 35 seconds from dead ball to snap.

Presently, it is 20 after the ball is whistled in, and he said they have stats that show that it is about 15 seconds on average to whistle it in.  Makes 35 seconds.  Sometimes its whistled in in 12 seconds, sometimes in 22, so this makes it always 35, not 32 sometimes, or 42 sometimes...

Now, how tempo changes, how substitutions happen, these will be works in progress, and we will have to see how we work them out.

He said a group will look at the last 3 minutes this off season.

[TecnoGenius]

He said a group will look at the last 3 minutes this off season.

But it would seem that all "looking into it" will be within the strict confines of the 35s play clock.  Can they keep the existing 3 min excitement with that new limitation?  That's the big question.

I, for one, would like assurances (promises!) that the CFL will NOT have spiking the ball or the speed of the keystone cops refs running the ball up for the next play deciding outcomes.  To me those are the stupidest parts of the NFL, even dumber than the fair catch.

He could very easily come out today and provide those assurances, even if the only way to achieve them is to switch back to the old 20s rules in the last 3 mins.

[TecnoGenius]

I am going to carry on supporting the league regardless. To be honest, and I know I'm going against the grain here, I am kind of excited to see how these changes play out.

A very well-reasoned and welcome post.

You make a good point that "more O / TDs" may be a bit of a misdirection.  Currently it's laid out as THE main argument, and most of my counter-arguments attack on the basis of that -- because almost all the "more O" changes have many other, less drastic and alienating, solutions.

If you are correct, and the main goal is perception, to stop being the laughing stock they say we are with "the kids these days", then a lot of things start to make sense.  Now, you can argue if the changes (or, really, anything) can help with youth "perception"; but maybe they truly believe they will.

On the basis of perception, what they have chosen to change are the most visible differences of the CFL: the ones a new viewer would instantly notice on TV.  And what they've chosen to ignore (for now) are the ones that are not as visible unless you're a hardcore football fan.

By that logic, the problem wasn't the 110Y field, the problem was the big 55 printed at center field.  No one watching on TV will notice a longer field, but they instantly see that 55.  There's one visible mocking-target eliminated.  Funny, but they could have achieved this by keeping the field 110Y, but making the yard markers an arbitrary slightly-bigger-than-1Y so that the C is labelled 50.  No one on TV would know our "yard" was really 1.1Y.  Fix the perception, keep the 110Y fans happy.  Of course, then the 1st down sticks would have to be 9 "yards" away, not 10...

The other visibly sore thumb is the posts.  Instantly noticeable on TV.  No solution to that other than to move them to match the NFL.  Not much way around that.  But the post moves is not really anyone's main beef, except that we'll miss the returns.

And even the EZ size change fits with the perception mantra.  20Y might be too hard to hide as "NFL normal", but 15Y probably looks pretty darn similar on TV to all but the most hardcore fans.

And the stuff they left alone are the things that are NOT noticeable.  12 men: unless you're doing counts for TMM, no one can eyeball count that, so no perception issue.  Wide field: with all the close-up shots TSN focuses on, it also is not noticeable.  Unlimited motion: noticeable but only hardcore fans know about the NFL motion rules: as there IS motion, just by 1 guy.  So not a perception problem.  1 yard off: unless it's a down-the-line shot (which we don't get enough of) it's also hard to tell if you're a casual viewer.

That leaves 3 downs.  But that's not visible on the field.  Only when they are kicking and the chyron says "3rd down" might someone perceive a difference.

So maybe you're onto something.  Then the argument shifts to whether perception really is keeping away the young'ns.  That remains to be seen.  It also means that success in 1-2 years cannot be measured in "more TDs" or "more excitement".  Success MUST be measured in more-young-butts-in-seats.

And if there's something to all of this, I still think doing the 'Brosie approach of just plainly telling it like it is would have been better.  Why worm & weasel your way around it?  It also means that the next casualty of beloved rules & norms will be what is the next-most visible on TV.  To me that's the 1 yard off, then motion, then 3 downs.  Scary thoughts...

[theaardvark]

But it would seem that all "looking into it" will be within the strict confines of the 35s play clock.  Can they keep the existing 3 min excitement with that new limitation?  That's the big question.

I, for one, would like assurances (promises!) that the CFL will NOT have spiking the ball or the speed of the keystone cops refs running the ball up for the next play deciding outcomes.  To me those are the stupidest parts of the NFL, even dumber than the fair catch.

He could very easily come out today and provide those assurances, even if the only way to achieve them is to switch back to the old 20s rules in the last 3 mins.

Here's a thought.

Field dimensions, goal posts, these were not items that required input from players / coaches.  They do not really affect game play except make things easier for coaches and players.  Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

The rouge, that's an easy thing to define and change, and again, once the dimensions change, it makes sense, and the rule change doesn't have a lot of wiggle room in there.  So making the change didn't really need consultation.

But, on the clock, they did not give a definitive answer other than 35seconds from dead ball instead of 20 from spot.  Effort to standardize regardless of which crew is officiating.

As to how it is handled inside 3 minutes, it sound like a LOT of consultation and conversation is going to go on before that is decided.  Coaches and players and possibly even fans will be involved.  And rightfully so, it does change one of the real distinguishing points of the game, and something that makes our game exciting.

So I agree with the way the changes have been laid out, and applaud the BOG for recognizing that the clock issue needed to happen, but that there was work to be done in making it the best fit for the game.

[TecnoGenius]

As to how it is handled inside 3 minutes, it sound like a LOT of consultation and conversation is going to go on before that is decided.  Coaches and players and possibly even fans will be involved.  And rightfully so, it does change one of the real distinguishing points of the game, and something that makes our game exciting.

Well, they don't need fan input.  All we want is "just don't ruin it".  The only thing to figure out is how do you not ruin it with a 35s clock?

And the answer to that may tell us a lot in terms of whether the end goal is to go full-NFL or not -- whether Commish is a liar or not.  If they come out of this adding a ton more timeouts (like the NFL) to "solve the problem" then we'll have an answer to this question.