Punt "Plane"?

[TecnoGenius]

Where's the "plane" on a punt?

A few games back @ PAS there was a punt kicked by the opponent that landed outside the EZ.  It then rolled, untouched, so that (it appeared) the nose of the ball had broken the plane of the EZ.  But by "plane" I mean the plane that's used to tell if a TD has been scored: i.e. the inside edge of the goal line.

The ball did not go far enough to cross the outside edge of the goal line.  So it was on the line, but not actually into the non-line EZ area.

Our returner (Vaval) picked it up and returned it.  He was hoping it would roll into the EZ for a single, as he was waiting for it to roll farther.

My question is: did that ball "break the plane" and Vaval could have given up the single (what we wanted)?  Or, same question reworded: is the plane on a punt the same as the plane on a normal O play?

People around me were mixed.  Some said the plane changes on a punt to be the outside edge.  Some said the plane remains the same as a TD.

My guess is it did break the plane and Vaval should have downed it.  Why?  Because even if punting has a different plane than normal O (which I've never heard of but is possible), that should only take effect after the ball is touched and the returning team gains possession?

Bonus question: Vaval was chasing it, I think, having let it go over his head.  Does he have to get his butt into the EZ before touching the ball to be a single?  Or can he pick it up while he's outside the goal area as long as the ball is across the plane (whichever plane that may be)?

[Sir Blue and Gold]

It's an interesting question from a fan/rules perspective but imagine you were Vaval back there trying to secure the ball, get your head back up, find your blocks, your lanes, etc.

He isn't going to be able to determine if the tip of the nose of the ball crossed the goal line or not. And if he takes the ball from inside the field of play and gets tackled or goes down in the end zone then it's a safety so it's never going to be coached like that.

[bomb squad]

Where's the "plane" on a punt?

A few games back @ PAS there was a punt kicked by the opponent that landed outside the EZ.  It then rolled, untouched, so that (it appeared) the nose of the ball had broken the plane of the EZ.  But by "plane" I mean the plane that's used to tell if a TD has been scored: i.e. the inside edge of the goal line.

The ball did not go far enough to cross the outside edge of the goal line.  So it was on the line, but not actually into the non-line EZ area.

Our returner (Vaval) picked it up and returned it.  He was hoping it would roll into the EZ for a single, as he was waiting for it to roll farther.

My question is: did that ball "break the plane" and Vaval could have given up the single (what we wanted)?  Or, same question reworded: is the plane on a punt the same as the plane on a normal O play?

People around me were mixed.  Some said the plane changes on a punt to be the outside edge.  Some said the plane remains the same as a TD.

My guess is it did break the plane and Vaval should have downed it.  Why?  Because even if punting has a different plane than normal O (which I've never heard of but is possible), that should only take effect after the ball is touched and the returning team gains possession?

Bonus question: Vaval was chasing it, I think, having let it go over his head.  Does he have to get his butt into the EZ before touching the ball to be a single?  Or can he pick it up while he's outside the goal area as long as the ball is across the plane (whichever plane that may be)?

My thoughts (without looking at the rulebook):

Question 1: There is only one endzone. It starts at the "field" side of the goal line and extends to inside of the back line and inside of the 2 boundary lines. No special end zone for a punt or anything else. So, yes he could have conceded a single if the ball didn't cross the goal after he touched it.

Bonus question: It's all about where the ball is when he first touches it. Where he is is irrelevant. Again, as long as any part of the ball doesn't cross the goal line after he touches it (even if the ball is on the ground).

[dd]

Where's the "plane" on a punt?

A few games back @ PAS there was a punt kicked by the opponent that landed outside the EZ.  It then rolled, untouched, so that (it appeared) the nose of the ball had broken the plane of the EZ.  But by "plane" I mean the plane that's used to tell if a TD has been scored: i.e. the inside edge of the goal line.

The ball did not go far enough to cross the outside edge of the goal line.  So it was on the line, but not actually into the non-line EZ area.

Our returner (Vaval) picked it up and returned it.  He was hoping it would roll into the EZ for a single, as he was waiting for it to roll farther.

My question is: did that ball "break the plane" and Vaval could have given up the single (what we wanted)?  Or, same question reworded: is the plane on a punt the same as the plane on a normal O play?

People around me were mixed.  Some said the plane changes on a punt to be the outside edge.  Some said the plane remains the same as a TD.

My guess is it did break the plane and Vaval should have downed it.  Why?  Because even if punting has a different plane than normal O (which I've never heard of but is possible), that should only take effect after the ball is touched and the returning team gains possession?

Bonus question: Vaval was chasing it, I think, having let it go over his head.  Does he have to get his butt into the EZ before touching the ball to be a single?  Or can he pick it up while he's outside the goal area as long as the ball is across the plane (whichever plane that may be)?

The plane to the end zone is the same for any play in the game, it is the inside edge of the goal line.

[Blue In BC]

The plane to the end zone is the same for any play in the game, it is the inside edge of the goal line.

It's the field side but that didn't sound like what you said.

[TecnoGenius]

Question 1: There is only one endzone. It starts at the "field" side of the goal line and extends to inside of the back line and inside of the 2 boundary lines.

If true, then the same thing should apply to the every yard line, right?

Let's forget the EZ for a moment and switch to the 1 yard line.  When an O is close to scoring, if the ball is moved closer to the EZ than the 1YL (say the 1/2 YL), we all know the ball is moved to the 1YL for the next play.  I'm pretty sure the ball is placed so the tip of its nose is touching the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL (or what BinBC named it, "field side", which seems a good term).  Right?

But what if there's a 3rd down gamble at the 1 that turns the ball over.  Now the (new) offense is "backed up" and the ball is placed at the 1YL.  QUESTION: is the ball placed at the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL?  Or because the O is going the other way, is it placed on the closer-to-GL edge of the 1YL?

I'm going to go check, as I think our last game (or the OTT game?) had such an incident.

But if the edge used for ball placement depends on which way the ball is going... then wouldn't it also apply to the GL?  And if so, that would mean there possibly isn't "only one endzone".

(Hopefully I'll find that the edge for ball placement is the same regardless of direction...)

[dd]

It's the field side but that didn't sound like what you said.

that's what o mean you have to break the plane from the inside of the goal line or field side of the goal line

[dd]

If true, then the same thing should apply to the every yard line, right?

Let's forget the EZ for a moment and switch to the 1 yard line.  When an O is close to scoring, if the ball is moved closer to the EZ than the 1YL (say the 1/2 YL), we all know the ball is moved to the 1YL for the next play.  I'm pretty sure the ball is placed so the tip of its nose is touching the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL (or what BinBC named it, "field side", which seems a good term).  Right?

But what if there's a 3rd down gamble at the 1 that turns the ball over.  Now the (new) offense is "backed up" and the ball is placed at the 1YL.  QUESTION: is the ball placed at the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL?  Or because the O is going the other way, is it placed on the closer-to-GL edge of the 1YL?

I'm going to go check, as I think our last game (or the OTT game?) had such an incident.

But if the edge used for ball placement depends on which way the ball is going... then wouldn't it also apply to the GL?  And if so, that would mean there possibly isn't "only one endzone".

(Hopefully I'll find that the edge for ball placement is the same regardless of direction...)

on any unsuccessful 3rd down gamble, the ball is placed where it goes dead and is then flipped/pivots so the nose of the football pivots from the dead ball spot but is now going the other way

[TecnoGenius]

on any unsuccessful 3rd down gamble, the ball is placed where it goes dead and is then flipped/pivots so the nose of the football pivots from the dead ball spot but is now going the other way

Yes.  But my point is, what is done if it's inside the one... where the ball is MOVED and NOT placed where it goes dead.  The question is: does it go nose to the goal-area edge of the 1YL, or nose to the field edge of the 1YL... or does it depend on which team has the ball (which way the ball is driving)?

[bomb squad]

Yes.  But my point is, what is done if it's inside the one... where the ball is MOVED and NOT placed where it goes dead.  The question is: does it go nose to the goal-area edge of the 1YL, or nose to the field edge of the 1YL... or does it depend on which team has the ball (which way the ball is driving)?

The ball is placed at the 1 yard line.1 yard away from the goal line. There's no reason that I can think of for placing it anywhere else. What would be the reason for placing it on the goal side of the line? Not following your logic.
Here's another question to chew on though: If there is one yard from the goal line to the field side of the one yard stripe and each stripe thereafter, is it possible that the field actually is 110 yards from goal to goal?

Edit: Unless the actual 1 yard line is the center of the line. Then, if they are placing the ball at either edge, it's actually not the 1 yard line. They probably do so because it's easier to identify the edge rather than the center of the line.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

[bunker]

I would love to hear a coaches show with Techno and O'Shea

[TecnoGenius]

I would love to hear a coaches show with Techno and O'Shea

Oh no... MOS would hate me more than DT.  Definitely.

However, DT & I could probably argue this type of stuff for DAYS.

[TecnoGenius]

The ball is placed at the 1 yard line.1 yard away from the goal line. There's no reason that I can think of for placing it anywhere else. What would be the reason for placing it on the goal side of the line?

If for some reason the "which edge of the line" answer is dictated by "aim back to the team A dead ball line".  I've never seen this written, but hey, it is possible?

Edit: Unless the actual 1 yard line is the center of the line. Then, if they are placing the ball at either edge, it's actually not the 1 yard line. They probably do so because it's easier to identify the edge rather than the center of the line.

That's a great point.  Is it 1Y from center or from some edge... and if so, which edge.  And then does which edge change after you cross the 55?

I am totally going to take a mini tape measure with me next game and check post-game.

[TecnoGenius]

So I checked the OTT@WPG game because that had the 3 tries from the 1 (for OTT) and then after the TOD WPG snapped from the 1.

Unfortunately, TSN never shows a great angle pre-snap... or more importantly, pre-C-picking-up-the-ball.  The situation is made worse by every C moving the ball 6" forward when they lift it to ready for the snap.  (Everyone remember MOS chirping at the ref to flag the move-forward every C does?  LOL.)

Unless TSN cuts to a good overhead or down-the-line view BEFORE the C picks up the ball, I may not be able to get a good answer.

However, from what I was able to see, if you assume the C is always moving the ball 4-6" forward, I *may* be correct in that the "which edge of the line" question is dictated by which direction the ball is moving!  On both OTT and WPG snaps, the nose of the ball appeared to be on or past the "farther away from dead ball line" edge!  And since we know in the OTT snaps the ball would be placed on the nearest-to-deadball-line, and know the C's move the ball forward about a line's width, there may be some merit to my theory.

Next home game I'm going to try to spot the placements before the C picks it up if there are any 1YL plays.  However, 1YL "going the other way" scenarios are pretty rare (basically must be a TOD, or the ultimate in coffin corner punts).

It might be time to hit the rule book...