DL Solutions

[LXTSN]

The WFC didn't struggle for 29 years.

They made the finals 5 times in that stretch, but it would be fair to say we struggled off and on for 29 years...

[blue_gold_84]

They made the finals 5 times in that stretch, but it would be fair to say we struggled off and on for 29 years...

A more accurate assessment, IMO.

[Ridermania]

Kongo is still a free agent.

[TecnoGenius]

But posts like these make it seem like we're coming apart at the seams. The only DT who's done anything since he left here was Sayles (who many still say "wasn't good enough"). Nevis, Richardson, Sayles, Walkers, etc were all great players, but we have chugged along without them without missing a beat.

You say our pass rush is so-so, yet we are 1st in passing yards against, opposing passing completion %, opposition completions. Our rushing yards against are ranked 3rd. What about this is so-so?

I expect to do more of the same this year.

I guess my head is stuck on the '23 GC.  I'm rewatching the rest of the season now, so I'm trying to get more perspective.  But our pass rush didn't do much in the GC: neutered by Calvillo's hitch screens and timely run plays.  Our run stop failed badly on the Stanback TD and the probably-game-saving 15Y Cody scramble.  Would Stove have stopped Cody at the LoS?

I didn't say we were "coming apart at the seams"... I pointed out the steady decline in our #1 IMP DT.  Do you want argue that every year we didn't get a slight downgrade at that spot?  It can be both: it was a slight downgrade, and we didn't come apart at the seams.

Pointing out how DTs who leave WPG become tub-bound is a red herring.  Ya, we lucked out by shedding them before they tubbed up, but who's to say they'd have gotten injured if they had stayed?  We have to judge them for what they did when here.  There clearly is a DT-leaving-WPG tub curse, but that can't factor into this discussion unless we have an crystal injury ball.

I didn't know our D stats were still so good in so many categories, so I will take that to heart and try to feel better.  But season stats don't stick in the memory like PTSD GC-loss performances do.  I think back to the pass rush that won the '19 GC, and compare that to the ineffective pass rush in the '23 GC, and to me the difference is stark.

[TecnoGenius]

I agree. Most of what I have read is fans comparing our team to our team 2019-2023 instead of comparing us to who we will actually play against. Our defence has been lights out for the past 3 years now, if we lose a guy here or there it won't be some epic collapse as people are predicting. Do we want to find the next JJ, for sure or try beef up our interior DL..absolutely...will our defence collapse if we don't find players completely at that level and game ready. Nope, it won't. We will be fine. Every year our team is going to have different strengths and weaknesses. Some years the heartbeat of our defence will be the DL, some it will be LB and secondary. It's not a static thing. While I agree that our DL took some hits, I think our secondary looks better for instance.

This is a very good point, and all true.  However, we can acknowledge the above and note trends and steady declines in certain units or positions.  My stance is that IMP DT has been in steady, but not catastrophic, decline.  DE (and thus DL) has been in decline for 2 seasons as JJ has been injured so much.  Even if we're still top-3-in-CFL in many DL stats, we're still a shadow of '19 in sheer dominance.

Comparing our team now to 2019 is natural, I think.  As our team is what we're most familiar with.  Unless you're positing that the competition is also declining, "who we will actually play against" should be at roughly the same level year after year, no?  (I'm thinking mostly in terms of the GC opponent.)

You are right that our D's strength morphs and shifts depending on our talent level each year.  And that's ok, as long as the sum remains roughly the same.  '19 was our peak pass-rush GC.  '21 was our peak DB GC.  '22 was more balanced.  '23 nothing stood out at all in the GC on D.  What unit would you say was our D's strength in the '23 GC?  To me the only bright point was Holm with the best INT of the whole year.

It is possible the entire D is in steady decline as we apportion more of the SMS to the O.  How could it not be?  This can be true and also that we don't need to panic.

[TecnoGenius]

The difference I see is Ricky Walker played in 7 games in 2021 and 12 games in 2022 apprenticing for Sayles job, which is the right way to do it. Fox played in 3 games last season, and 2 games with BC in 2022, he was not given the prep. time last season to show he could adequately take over the position, or if he has the durability to stick it out for 20 games + the playoffs. Maybe he can, maybe he can't.

100% this.  Our DT success was by having a good pipeline and 1-2 seasons of apprenticeship for the next man up.  The turnover now is getting too fast and the pipeline not deep enough, so the next guy isn't as ready to start.

We all remember Stove taking tons of snaps in games that Nevis started (or when he didn't start due to injury).  And Sayles taking snaps in games Stove started.  Who here remembers a single snap Fox took in the regular season in games Walker started?  I don't!  I can't speak to Fox's talent because I cannot claim to have seen him play!

The pattern of success for The Mafia is clear, and the farther we deviate, the more risky it all becomes.  It can still work out fine, but it's more of an unknown vs the proven formula.  (This dev pipeline system is the same we use for our OL too.)

[TecnoGenius]

Kongo is still a free agent.

No $$.  Kongbo, as a NAT with a big ego, wants too much $.

It's funny that there's so much NAT talent sitting idle in FA with no biters.  It's like opposite-world.  The real scarcity is talented IMPs who will sign for low & middling money.  WPG needs more NATs like a hole in the head.

[Jesse]

I guess my head is stuck on the '23 GC.  I'm rewatching the rest of the season now, so I'm trying to get more perspective.  But our pass rush didn't do much in the GC: neutered by Calvillo's hitch screens and timely run plays.  Our run stop failed badly on the Stanback TD and the probably-game-saving 15Y Cody scramble.  Would Stove have stopped Cody at the LoS?

I didn't say we were "coming apart at the seams"... I pointed out the steady decline in our #1 IMP DT.  Do you want argue that every year we didn't get a slight downgrade at that spot?  It can be both: it was a slight downgrade, and we didn't come apart at the seams.

Pointing out how DTs who leave WPG become tub-bound is a red herring.  Ya, we lucked out by shedding them before they tubbed up, but who's to say they'd have gotten injured if they had stayed?  We have to judge them for what they did when here.  There clearly is a DT-leaving-WPG tub curse, but that can't factor into this discussion unless we have an crystal injury ball.

I didn't know our D stats were still so good in so many categories, so I will take that to heart and try to feel better.  But season stats don't stick in the memory like PTSD GC-loss performances do.  I think back to the pass rush that won the '19 GC, and compare that to the ineffective pass rush in the '23 GC, and to me the difference is stark.

Talk about a red herring, comparing one game out of one season against one in another season.

Our D was pretty middle of the back in '19. The Grey Cup was an amazing performance, but it doesn't speak to our whole season any more than this most recent one does.

[TecnoGenius]

Talk about a red herring, comparing one game out of one season against one in another season.

But it's the GC's (or final game a team plays) that define each season, especially for us having gone to 4 straight.  And it's really the only thing remembered by most people years later.  TOR had a great 2023, but no TOR fan will really care to remember it years from now.  They'll remember 2022.

[LXTSN]

Yeah we are looking good for nationals. We had pretty good depth and the guys were losing had solid backups in place.

I'll be honest, we are bringing up these concerns... I'm not really concerned. With our scouting department, Kyle Walters, and MOS I am really at peace with this offseason. We are re-signing guys at discounts, and picking up lots of potential prospects/projects. We were able to retain our star players, and true top-end talent is tough to replace.

Think about it...
We have the best QB situation in ZC and Strev
We have the top RB who lead the league by a good margin
We have Demski, Shoen and Lawler...
We have the best left tackle in the league in Bryant
We have the best DE in the league in Willie
We have the Nichols who is arguably the best DB in the league
We have Biggie who maybe shouldn't be on this list at this point in his career, but still is the ultimate leader for the defense.

Were talking about filling gaps rather than acquiring star talent!

[blue_or_die]

Yeah we are looking good for nationals. We had pretty good depth and the guys were losing had solid backups in place.

I'll be honest, we are bringing up these concerns... I'm not really concerned. With our scouting department, Kyle Walters, and MOS I am really at peace with this offseason. We are re-signing guys at discounts, and picking up lots of potential prospects/projects. We were able to retain our star players, and true top-end talent is tough to replace.

Think about it...
We have the best QB situation in ZC and Strev
We have the top RB who lead the league by a good margin And good Canadian depth at this position in Augustine as well
We have Demski, Shoen and Lawler...
We have the best left tackle in the league in Bryant Not to mention proven stars in Neufeld and Kolankowski, as well as 2 up and comers who've been in the system for a while now in Eli and Dobson
We have the best DE in the league in Willie
We have the Nichols who is arguably the best DB in the league As well as Holm and Alexander, who are also tops in the league at their secondary positions
We have Biggie who maybe shouldn't be on this list at this point in his career, but still is the ultimate leader for the defense. Wilson is also dominant on the weak side

Were talking about filling gaps rather than acquiring star talent!

Great post...I added a few points in bold.

[Pete]

Great post...I added a few points in bold.

Great post...I added a few points in bold.

Yeah we are looking good for nationals. We had pretty good depth and the guys were losing had solid backups in place.

I'll be honest, we are bringing up these concerns... I'm not really concerned. With our scouting department, Kyle Walters, and MOS I am really at peace with this offseason. We are re-signing guys at discounts, and picking up lots of potential prospects/projects. We were able to retain our star players, and true top-end talent is tough to replace.

Think about it...
We have the best QB situation in ZC and Strev
We have the top RB who lead the league by a good margin
We have Demski, Shoen and Lawler...
We have the best left tackle in the league in Bryant
We have the best DE in the league in Willie 
We have the Nichols who is arguably the best DB in the league
We have Biggie who maybe shouldn't be on this list at this point in his career, but still is the ultimate leader for the defense.
Were talking about filling gaps rather than acquiring star talent!

I agree with most of the post but if you look at units as a whole there are legitimate concerns in terms of declining performance.
our dline as a whole is in the bottom 2
our linebackers as a whole have declined to where Toronto, Montreal, Bc , Calgary, even Sask can be said to be superior
on the positive
Our dbacks are in the top third
Recievers, running backs are best in the league
Qb is in top 3 if not number 1
Our coaches I believe are the best as well

special teams to be determined

[LXTSN]

I agree with most of the post but if you look at units as a whole there are legitimate concerns in terms of declining performance.
our dline as a whole is in the bottom 2
our linebackers as a whole have declined to where Toronto, Montreal, Bc , Calgary, even Sask can be said to be superior
on the positive
Our dbacks are in the top third
Recievers, running backs are best in the league
Qb is in top 3 if not number 1
Our coaches I believe are the best as well

special teams to be determined

I guess you can say that because we don't know. My guess is that we will have 3 new starters on the DL.
Lawson, Haba and Fox.
Lawson and Haba haven't proven themselves let but this will be their chance. In the limited time they've played, I like what I've seen. They combined for 9 sacks last season playing behind Jeffcoat and Thomas, so if they can combine for 14 or 15 this season, I would say that's enough.
Fox is a wildcard. Hasn't played a game in the CFL but has been around the organization all year and they even added him to a couple active rosters. I think they like what they see from him.

Our DL is new, but they were due for a little refresh. I can see our DL being more effective than last season

[Jesse]

I agree with most of the post but if you look at units as a whole there are legitimate concerns in terms of declining performance.
our dline as a whole is in the bottom 2
our linebackers as a whole have declined to where Toronto, Montreal, Bc , Calgary, even Sask can be said

I just don't understand how people can legitimately make this claim when we had the best defense in the league last season.

[Pigskin]

I guess you can say that because we don't know. My guess is that we will have 3 new starters on the DL.
Lawson, Haba and Fox.
Lawson and Haba haven't proven themselves let but this will be their chance. In the limited time they've played, I like what I've seen. They combined for 9 sacks last season playing behind Jeffcoat and Thomas, so if they can combine for 14 or 15 this season, I would say that's enough.
Fox is a wildcard. Hasn't played a game in the CFL but has been around the organization all year and they even added him to a couple active rosters. I think they like what they see from him.

Our DL is new, but they were due for a little refresh. I can see our DL being more effective than last season

Actually, Miles Fox has played in 5 games in the CFL. In Winnipeg he has played in two games, and made 3DTs, and 1 sack. Not enough to say he can replace Walker, but he works hard in practice and seems to have an upside.