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Author Topic: Virtual Fan State of the League with Commissioner Randy Ambrosie  (Read 1783 times)
GOLDMEMBER
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« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2020, 03:00:58 AM »

Don't count on a vaccine, especially if that is a requirement to attend games.

I know there was a piece done about Ticketmaster requiring people to get vaccines to attend events, but in my opinion, that won't fly!

Fans are already attending games less and less. And there is at least some subset of the population (myself included) that won't be at the front of the line to get a vaccine (in my opinion) that was rushed to market.

 I am totally with the same boat as Donnie. Plus I am on another biological drug that might prove I won?t even need the vaccine.

And Blue or Die I choose to not reply to your any of your posts relating to any of this if you?re wondering.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 03:10:43 AM by GOLDMEMBER » Logged

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Sec223
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« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2020, 12:35:59 PM »

In a perfect world this plague never would have happened. It did however. The vaccine raises lots of discussion.Many people will rush to take it.Many people will wait. If it's perfectly safe group 1 will be protected while many in group 2 may get sick or die because they didn't believe it was safe. Who's right ? Who's wrong ? We'll find out soon. I missed my Regina trip last year and don't want to miss it again Smiley
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2020, 01:50:22 PM »

Not that it?s not on Ambrose to figure it out (and he?s certainly compensated sufficiently to expect solutions), but I just don?t get what people are hoping for. Change the business model? To what? Convince TSN to pay way, way more money so that the league doesn?t depend on gate? Charge corporate types to pay massive sponsorship payments for more jersey patches?

I've suggested an SMS reduced by 25% and a roster reduced by 4 players ( to 42 from 46 ). Losing 4 players somewhat offsets lowering the SMS. How that would break down within the ratio might be a more difficult aspect.

That lowers total costs even if it's only for the 2021 season. Revenues will be down even more than in recent seasons due to lower gate etc.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2020, 02:45:56 PM »

You make a great point. And I don?t know the answer. But I also know they can?t NOT change. They can?t keep losing money every year and hope to survive. Getting back this coming year is great, but the bigger concern needs to be the continuing stability of the league.

Yeah I get that you're thinking bigger picture and pandemic or not work should always be done to grow/change revenue streams to adapt and ensure long term stability. However, I'm really more concerned about the short term (getting back to playing while the pandemic is either going on or in its later stages) since, even though we saw teams pre-pandemic taking significant losses, these were sporadic and changed year to year so I wouldn't say we are on an overall downward trajectory, just that some teams like BC and Montreal are having some really bad times in the present. In the past, this was Toronto, and now new ownership has fixed some of these problems. I guess what I'm saying is, pandemic aside, these circumstances are not unprecedented and it sort of is what it is.

I've suggested an SMS reduced by 25% and a roster reduced by 4 players ( to 42 from 46 ). Losing 4 players somewhat offsets lowering the SMS. How that would break down within the ratio might be a more difficult aspect.

That lowers total costs even if it's only for the 2021 season. Revenues will be down even more than in recent seasons due to lower gate etc.

This will probably be necessary in being part of the solution. Cost reduction is important but the real question is on the revenue end IMO.
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2020, 02:54:43 PM »

I've suggested an SMS reduced by 25% and a roster reduced by 4 players ( to 42 from 46 ). Losing 4 players somewhat offsets lowering the SMS. How that would break down within the ratio might be a more difficult aspect.

That lowers total costs even if it's only for the 2021 season. Revenues will be down even more than in recent seasons due to lower gate etc.

Do they even need to do that though?  I might be wrong here, but doesn't the lack of playing in 2020 (and the subsequent players not getting paid) mean all of their contracts are now void and all players are FA?  That would likely translate into a defacto shifting down of salaries by some amount, with the owners (rightfully) claiming revenues are dropping so salaries drop.  Of course, this would lead to massive team upheaval, but the reality is we're already there - players are now a year older, some players will retroactively retire to pursue careers outside of football due to no 2020 season, some players on ELCs will have given up the football dream in order to pursue better money in the non sports world (not hard for ELC players), etc, etc.

Now, moving down the SMS will have an enforcement effect on this, but I think it will likely happen generically anyway.  Reducing the roster size by 10% may alleviate some of the issues.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2020, 03:24:50 PM »

Do they even need to do that though?  I might be wrong here, but doesn't the lack of playing in 2020 (and the subsequent players not getting paid) mean all of their contracts are now void and all players are FA?  That would likely translate into a defacto shifting down of salaries by some amount, with the owners (rightfully) claiming revenues are dropping so salaries drop.  Of course, this would lead to massive team upheaval, but the reality is we're already there - players are now a year older, some players will retroactively retire to pursue careers outside of football due to no 2020 season, some players on ELCs will have given up the football dream in order to pursue better money in the non sports world (not hard for ELC players), etc, etc.

Now, moving down the SMS will have an enforcement effect on this, but I think it will likely happen generically anyway.  Reducing the roster size by 10% may alleviate some of the issues.

I could be wrong but I believe the status of 2020 contracts remains to be seen at this point. I could have missed something though. I think it's fair to assume null and void, but I don't know if that's been determined yet.
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wpg#1
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2020, 03:42:30 PM »

If it means getting back to normal, and going to Bomber games, count me in !!
I'll be first in line for the needle if nobody else wants to.
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2020, 03:50:15 PM »

If it means getting back to normal, and going to Bomber games, count me in !!
I'll be first in line for the needle if nobody else wants to.

The first batch of doses is already spoken for according to the news last night

Health Care Workers
Police
Fire Department
Elderly
High Risk
Grocery Store Workers
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wpg#1
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« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2020, 04:10:20 PM »

The first batch of doses is already spoken for according to the news last night

Health Care Workers
Police
Fire Department
Elderly
High Risk
Grocery Store Workers

Yes, I know ? I'm just saying. I will be getting the vaccine !! My wife will certainly be one of those firsts though.
These are VERY VERY smart people working on this stuff. I'm not concerned.
I'm just so looking forward to whatever normal will be in the future.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2020, 05:40:06 PM »

Do they even need to do that though?  I might be wrong here, but doesn't the lack of playing in 2020 (and the subsequent players not getting paid) mean all of their contracts are now void and all players are FA?  That would likely translate into a defacto shifting down of salaries by some amount, with the owners (rightfully) claiming revenues are dropping so salaries drop.  Of course, this would lead to massive team upheaval, but the reality is we're already there - players are now a year older, some players will retroactively retire to pursue careers outside of football due to no 2020 season, some players on ELCs will have given up the football dream in order to pursue better money in the non sports world (not hard for ELC players), etc, etc.

Now, moving down the SMS will have an enforcement effect on this, but I think it will likely happen generically anyway.  Reducing the roster size by 10% may alleviate some of the issues.

Complicated question. The SMS extends through the 2020 and 2021 season. It's a negotiation between the league and CFLPA. Whether existing rosters continue or not the SMS is a separate issue. It can't be "re-tooled " automatically by just shuffling out a bunch of high paid players. Taking back things already in any Union agreement is never an easy task regardless of the reasoning.

One result might be that all players have become free agents. IMO that's not in the interest of the league or the players.  OTOH using just the Bombers as an example, we already have 30 players than would be potential free agents going into 2021. Other teams might be in similar situations. The team roster will be different than it would have been in 2020.

Are players legally due their 2020 salaries? That's another big question.

Example: Mike Reilly sued the Lions for $250K of guaranteed money for the 2020 season. They have stated he will return for the 2021 season. If they have to pay him that money, what pocket does it come out of in regard to both the 2021 SMS and general expenses against profit and loss?

In most free agency periods teams use up the balance of their unused SMS from to re-sign potential free agents before the end of the calendar year. 

How would the 2021 SMS be modified to account for that whether it's reduced or maintained?

Massive upheaval in rosters is a possibility. Whether it comes down to that we'll see. Again, IMO that's not good for anybody.

Like most problems players will have varied responses and willingness to agree. Somewhat like the option given to opt out of existing contracts granted earlier. Or in the NFL where players just opted out of playing the 2020 season. Obviously for the CFL we didn't get a 2020 season so opting out of playing a 2021 season is longer reaching question. Until we know the Covid situation whenever TC starts we don't know how players will react.

Fingers crossed things can be worked out.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 05:46:30 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2020, 08:34:37 PM »

Complicated question. The SMS extends through the 2020 and 2021 season. It's a negotiation between the league and CFLPA. Whether existing rosters continue or not the SMS is a separate issue. It can't be "re-tooled " automatically by just shuffling out a bunch of high paid players. Taking back things already in any Union agreement is never an easy task regardless of the reasoning.

One result might be that all players have become free agents. IMO that's not in the interest of the league or the players.  OTOH using just the Bombers as an example, we already have 30 players than would be potential free agents going into 2021. Other teams might be in similar situations. The team roster will be different than it would have been in 2020.

Are players legally due their 2020 salaries? That's another big question.

Example: Mike Reilly sued the Lions for $250K of guaranteed money for the 2020 season. They have stated he will return for the 2021 season. If they have to pay him that money, what pocket does it come out of in regard to both the 2021 SMS and general expenses against profit and loss?

In most free agency periods teams use up the balance of their unused SMS from to re-sign potential free agents before the end of the calendar year. 

How would the 2021 SMS be modified to account for that whether it's reduced or maintained?

Massive upheaval in rosters is a possibility. Whether it comes down to that we'll see. Again, IMO that's not good for anybody.

Like most problems players will have varied responses and willingness to agree. Somewhat like the option given to opt out of existing contracts granted earlier. Or in the NFL where players just opted out of playing the 2020 season. Obviously for the CFL we didn't get a 2020 season so opting out of playing a 2021 season is longer reaching question. Until we know the Covid situation whenever TC starts we don't know how players will react.

Fingers crossed things can be worked out.

Admittedly, my knowledge of the particulars of CFL contracts is limited to what I find on the net, but 3DN had an article which stated the following

One word in particular appears in a clause embedded in all standard player contracts signed in the CFL. Line 16 reads as follows:
It is mutually understood and agreed that if the operation of the Canadian Football League is suspended, this Contract shall immediately be terminated and the remuneration to be paid to the Player shall be on the basis as provided by Paragraph 11 herein.


And Paragraph 11 indicates

As for salaries throughout the season, paragraph 11 stipulates that players are only entitled to compensation for work they?ve already provided. At this time, most players have not been earned a dollar since the end of the 2019 season because no games have been played in 2020. That could allow the CFL to suspend operations without paying its players any further cash.

So, fundamentally, I would read that no players are entitled to any salary from in season if no games are played.  They may have gotten paid bonuses linked to calendar dates, but aren't entitled to anything else.

Since the CFL did suspend operations (cancellation of the 2020 is effectively suspending operations), it would seem likely that all contracts are now cancelled.  Now, there could be a Force Majeure case made of some sort here, in that the suspension of the CFL season was not made due to performance or financial issues directly related to the CFL, but rather outside influences beyond the control of anyone, but it's hard to picture who would make those arguments.

https://3downnation.com/2020/04/06/all-cfl-players-could-become-free-agents-if-season-suspended/

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GOLDMEMBER
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« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2020, 01:21:57 AM »

Yes, I know ? I'm just saying. I will be getting the vaccine !! My wife will certainly be one of those firsts though.
These are VERY VERY smart people working on this stuff. I'm not concerned.
I'm just so looking forward to whatever normal will be in the future.
here here
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« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2020, 06:00:51 AM »

Count me in as getting the vaccine as soon as it is available.  No pharmaceutical company or government agency would release the vaccine to the general population without homework, sufficient testing, positive results and confidence that prove it safe and effective.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2020, 02:04:30 PM »

BlueInCgy you may be correct about the contract comments you posted. I don't know whether there is a Force Majeure clause either.

I'm certainly not privy to anything more than forum info. We haven't heard anything official from the league to agree or disagree with 3rddown that all players might become free agents.

That scares me. I also did hear about any resolution regarding the Lions / Mike Reilly about his lawsuit. Only heard they expected him to play in 2021.

Back to the vaccine, I'll get one when it's available. There will be a long list of 1st responder's and others ahead of me. So I can't say when my opportunity will come up but when it does, I will.

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TBURGESS
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« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2020, 02:19:51 PM »

Admittedly, my knowledge of the particulars of CFL contracts is limited to what I find on the net, but 3DN had an article which stated the following

One word in particular appears in a clause embedded in all standard player contracts signed in the CFL. Line 16 reads as follows:
It is mutually understood and agreed that if the operation of the Canadian Football League is suspended, this Contract shall immediately be terminated and the remuneration to be paid to the Player shall be on the basis as provided by Paragraph 11 herein.


And Paragraph 11 indicates

As for salaries throughout the season, paragraph 11 stipulates that players are only entitled to compensation for work they?ve already provided. At this time, most players have not been earned a dollar since the end of the 2019 season because no games have been played in 2020. That could allow the CFL to suspend operations without paying its players any further cash.

So, fundamentally, I would read that no players are entitled to any salary from in season if no games are played.  They may have gotten paid bonuses linked to calendar dates, but aren't entitled to anything else.

Since the CFL did suspend operations (cancellation of the 2020 is effectively suspending operations), it would seem likely that all contracts are now cancelled.  Now, there could be a Force Majeure case made of some sort here, in that the suspension of the CFL season was not made due to performance or financial issues directly related to the CFL, but rather outside influences beyond the control of anyone, but it's hard to picture who would make those arguments.

https://3downnation.com/2020/04/06/all-cfl-players-could-become-free-agents-if-season-suspended/
Lawyers are going to have a great time arguing what the word suspended means. The CFL's lawyers that the league wasn't and isn't suspended. Managment is still in place and the league is still moving forward for a 2021 season. The CFLPA lawyers will argue that the 2020 season was suspended, so the contracts are over.

IIRC the league said they were cancelling the 2020 season, not suspending it, so my guess is they will win the argument, but I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

As for the vaccine... I'll get it as soon as it's availble to me. If I were running things, and I'm not, I'd make it so you got an offical document and it goes into the medical database to prove that you had both shots and I'd make it manditory to have had the vaccine to travel. If I were any country or cruise line or all incusive etc., I'd make it manditory that people coming in had been vaccinated to greatly reduce the risk of having to shut down yet again.
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