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Author Topic: Virtual Fan State of the League with Commissioner Randy Ambrosie  (Read 1779 times)
DCM
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« on: November 10, 2020, 07:19:51 PM »

The virtual Fan State of the League with Commissioner Randy Ambrosie takes place on Monday November 16th at 3 PM ET.

Submit your questions at this link: https://www.cfl.ca/townhall/
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Bombers9256
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2020, 01:55:58 AM »

Anyone listen to this? I did. You missed absolutely nothing. Sad.
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2020, 03:40:08 AM »

Short on specifics but optimistic for a 2021 season with fans in the stands.  Of course it all depends on COVID.  The league is still in discussion with the federal government on funding as well as exploring options in the private sector.  Seems pretty clear the league wants to continue but the status of COVID will dictate where the league goes from here.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2020, 03:44:01 AM »

I wasn't expecting to much.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2020, 04:44:04 PM »

Short on specifics but optimistic for a 2021 season with fans in the stands.  Of course it all depends on COVID.  The league is still in discussion with the federal government on funding as well as exploring options in the private sector.  Seems pretty clear the league wants to continue but the status of COVID will dictate where the league goes from here.

The border will be another big issue. I was asked today if I would support the Bombers if they played with a roster of mainly Canadians for 2021.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2020, 05:53:41 PM »

The border will be another big issue. I was asked today if I would support the Bombers if they played with a roster of mainly Canadians for 2021.

How did you respond?
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Pigskin
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2020, 06:21:45 PM »

Yes, if it means keeping the CFL alive, and players employed and on the field, I would support it.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2020, 07:11:19 PM »

Yes, if it means keeping the CFL alive, and players employed and on the field, I would support it.

Does it accomplish that though? Essentially you'd be getting Canadian college football with some players that were already in the CFL.

Are there even 18 Canadian QB's ( 2/ team ) to add to rosters regardless of skill level?

For that matter: 60 players per team ( 46 AR, 10 PR, maybe 4 on IR ) = 540 players. I have my doubts there are ever that many available at any one time, let alone " qualified " by any stretch of definition.

OTOH, I would watch actual college football if games were televised. Game quality is not usually very good or competitive.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 07:18:08 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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the paw
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2020, 07:39:25 PM »

Short on specifics but optimistic for a 2021 season with fans in the stands.  Of course it all depends on COVID.  The league is still in discussion with the federal government on funding as well as exploring options in the private sector.  Seems pretty clear the league wants to continue but the status of COVID will dictate where the league goes from here.

I think we will see one or more vaccines approved in December and deployed to health care workers starting in January.  I don't remember the exact number of doses the government has already contracted for, but it isn't enough for everyone (yet).

So the question is how quickly can the vaccine be manufactured and deployed to Joe Q. Fan?   I think maybe April, but that is a pretty optimistic schedule.  But if that turns out to be the case, we may actually see fans in the stands this summer.  But it is far from guaranteed.  If half the population hasn't been vaccinated by June, then it would be foolhardy to go ahead with the season as normally scheduled. 

I think getting players tested, across the border, quarantined in a team-monitored setting, and into training camp would be do-able.  But its all for naught if you can't sell tickets, so I think all hopes are riding on this vaccine. 
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Pigskin
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2020, 09:09:50 PM »

Does it accomplish that though? Essentially you'd be getting Canadian college football with some players that were already in the CFL.

Are there even 18 Canadian QB's ( 2/ team ) to add to rosters regardless of skill level?

For that matter: 60 players per team ( 46 AR, 10 PR, maybe 4 on IR ) = 540 players. I have my doubts there are ever that many available at any one time, let alone " qualified " by any stretch of definition.

OTOH, I would watch actual college football if games were televised. Game quality is not usually very good or competitive.

As you do most of the time, your getting far to carried away. The question I was asked was mainly Canadian players. There was no numbers put out there, no said the QB's had to be Canadian.

I attend most if not all the Bison games, also many of the Rifles games. Most games are very competitive and a good way to see the future stars of the CFL and support Canadian Football.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 09:50:28 PM by Pigskin » Logged
Sec223
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2020, 11:43:49 AM »

The border will be another big issue. I was asked today if I would support the Bombers if they played with a roster of mainly Canadians for 2021.

I understand the thinking of mailny Candian players but how many Americans live in Canada year round that would qualify ? Also why couldn't Americans come and isolate and be eligible ? Some teams may have more Americans living in their cities making it unfair ? Why stay in Winnipeg for the winter ?? BC maybe.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2020, 01:42:28 PM »

As you do most of the time, your getting far to carried away. The question I was asked was mainly Canadian players. There was no numbers put out there, no said the QB's had to be Canadian.

I attend most if not all the Bison games, also many of the Rifles games. Most games are very competitive and a good way to see the future stars of the CFL and support Canadian Football.



Not really. I made a valid point. I also said " essentially ".  Mostly is a wide term but even an optimist can see how difficult it would be to replace key American players, particularly QB's.  Competitiveness would be out the window.

The majority of CFL fans don't attend Canadian college games. Getting them to CFL games is hard enough.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2020, 02:08:31 PM »



The majority of CFL fans don't attend Canadian college games. Getting them to CFL games is hard enough.

Cases and point, yourself.
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Donny C
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« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2020, 05:00:17 PM »

Don't count on a vaccine, especially if that is a requirement to attend games.

I know there was a piece done about Ticketmaster requiring people to get vaccines to attend events, but in my opinion, that won't fly!

Fans are already attending games less and less. And there is at least some subset of the population (myself included) that won't be at the front of the line to get a vaccine (in my opinion) that was rushed to market.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2020, 06:00:53 PM »

Cases and point, yourself.

I've been to college games,  watch every CFL game or college game if on TV.  I record and re-watch all Bomber games several times. I have a Bomber game library on DVD 1985 - 2005 about 230 games, so yes football is more than a passing interest. I never suggested I wouldn't go or watch those games on TV.

It's known that attendance is low at college games and CFL games. So I don't know what POINT you are trying to make. No fans potentially in the stands doesn't bode well for building TV viewership even with normal rosters.

I merely asked for a clarification of what this would look like and suggested some pitfalls that are obvious.

In 2020 our roster would have had 22 imports + 2 global on the AR. Total 24 AR and maybe 10 on PR.

Feel free to define what switching out MOST of that would potentially look like? Even just on the AR. I'd be curious. It's a discussion not an argument.

What does a CFL look like if a given team has their veteran import QB ( let's say BLM or Reilly ) and another team ends up having to roster a Canadian QB. That's just ONE consideration of a reduced roster of mostly Canadians.

What would Bombers look like without Collaros, Bryant, Hardrick, Bighill, Jefferson and Jeffcoat? That's only 6 players. Not sure if any of them live in Canada permanently. However it's just an example of 6 players.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 06:09:42 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2020, 06:04:26 PM »

Don't count on a vaccine, especially if that is a requirement to attend games.

I know there was a piece done about Ticketmaster requiring people to get vaccines to attend events, but in my opinion, that won't fly!

Fans are already attending games less and less. And there is at least some subset of the population (myself included) that won't be at the front of the line to get a vaccine (in my opinion) that was rushed to market.

Many of us won't be at the front of the vaccine line due to gov't priority plans and availability. That will change as we get into the spring but how many people can get the vaccine and are willing to get the vaccine before May is the giant question.

Being older I would fall into the higher risk category and will get one once available. I'd guess April as an optimistic guess at the moment.

In BC it's nearly impossible to get even the normal flu vaccine today.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 06:30:23 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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blue_or_die
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« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2020, 06:20:34 PM »

Don't count on a vaccine, especially if that is a requirement to attend games.

I know there was a piece done about Ticketmaster requiring people to get vaccines to attend events, but in my opinion, that won't fly!

Fans are already attending games less and less. And there is at least some subset of the population (myself included) that won't be at the front of the line to get a vaccine (in my opinion) that was rushed to market.

Hoping you're not the majority.

We will miss you at games, Donny.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2020, 06:48:46 PM »

Hoping you're not the majority.

We will miss you at games, Donny.

Because my wife is a surgeon she will be getting one of early vaccines as a front line worker. However I am really not in any rush. 
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the paw
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« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2020, 07:02:53 PM »

Many of us won't be at the front of the vaccine line due to gov't priority plans and availability. That will change as we get into the spring but how many people can get the vaccine and are willing to get the vaccine before May is the giant question.

Being older I would fall into the higher risk category and will get one once available. I'd guess April as an optimistic guess at the moment.

In BC it's nearly impossible to get even the normal flu vaccine today.

I was watching CBC this morning, and they said that the first order is for 20 million doses, but that only covers 10 million people. So, I don't expect to make the cut for that first batch.  They also said that the rollout is likely to be a little slower in Canada than in the US.  So my original guesstimate of April is likely too optimistic. 

I think I heard that they expect everyone in Canada to have been vaccinated by the end of 2021, although again, its somewhat speculative.

Being in the second or third round of vaccinations is okay by me, I am also a little nervous about how quickly this has been rushed to market.  But assuming no safety concerns arise, it is looking pretty touch and go to assume that a critical mass of football fans will be vaccinated by June.  Maybe by the Labour Day Classic?
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2020, 07:07:51 PM »

Being in the second or third round of vaccinations is okay by me, I am also a little nervous about how quickly this has been rushed to market.  But assuming no safety concerns arise, it is looking pretty touch and go to assume that a critical mass of football fans will be vaccinated by June.  Maybe by the Labour Day Classic?

Yeah, won't lie, I'm not too eager to be in the first or second round of shots, though I wouldn't specifically avoid it.  Granted, it's unlikely we'll find out about the downside of the vaccine (at least long term) until after everyone has it.

I guess we'll see how far it goes.  Does everyone who gets vaccinated get a card, and then they're allowed out in population?  Sounds a little SciFi end of the world....
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Pigskin
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« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2020, 07:11:43 PM »

I was watching CBC this morning, and they said that the first order is for 20 million doses, but that only covers 10 million people. So, I don't expect to make the cut for that first batch.  They also said that the rollout is likely to be a little slower in Canada than in the US.  So my original guesstimate of April is likely too optimistic. 

I think I heard that they expect everyone in Canada to have been vaccinated by the end of 2021, although again, its somewhat speculative.

Being in the second or third round of vaccinations is okay by me, I am also a little nervous about how quickly this has been rushed to market.  But assuming no safety concerns arise, it is looking pretty touch and go to assume that a critical mass of football fans will be vaccinated by June.  Maybe by the Labour Day Classic?

Yep, this is what I am thinking also.
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GOLDMEMBER
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« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2020, 07:25:05 PM »

Yeah, won't lie, I'm not too eager to be in the first or second round of shots, though I wouldn't specifically avoid it.  Granted, it's unlikely we'll find out about the downside of the vaccine (at least long term) until after everyone has it.

I guess we'll see how far it goes.  Does everyone who gets vaccinated get a card, and then they're allowed out in population?  Sounds a little SciFi end of the world....
It could be a down right ugly post vaccine world.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2020, 07:43:53 PM »

It could be a down right ugly post vaccine world.

What are you envisioning?
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2020, 08:21:51 PM »

What are you envisioning?

Depends how far down the conspiracy rabbit hole you go.

If vaccinations are mandatory, I suspect you're going to get a serious "human rights" push back from people who don't want to be forced to put something in their bodies, and I don't know how you'd legally do that in Canada (though JT is really good at not following rules, and making other people do their dirty work).

If vaccinations aren't mandatory, the efficacy and timeline of vaccinations won't be as effective as it could be.  So do you let vaccinated people go back to life as "normal" while non vaccinated people are under lockdown?  How do you differentiate between vaccinated and not.  Couple that with not enough vaccine being available to the whole population at the same time (even if they did want to take it), so how do you choose who does and doesn't get it, which in turn could have a significant negative effect on those who want to get vaccinated, but have to wait.

All of it looks like the plot to an 80s post apocalyptic film, and the possibility for increased civil unrest is very real.

TLDR and getting back to the thread topic - the existence of a vaccine doesn't necessarily mean a 2021 season is a go.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2020, 08:30:48 PM »

I was watching CBC this morning, and they said that the first order is for 20 million doses, but that only covers 10 million people. So, I don't expect to make the cut for that first batch.  They also said that the rollout is likely to be a little slower in Canada than in the US.  So my original guesstimate of April is likely too optimistic. 

I think I heard that they expect everyone in Canada to have been vaccinated by the end of 2021, although again, its somewhat speculative.

Being in the second or third round of vaccinations is okay by me, I am also a little nervous about how quickly this has been rushed to market.  But assuming no safety concerns arise, it is looking pretty touch and go to assume that a critical mass of football fans will be vaccinated by June.  Maybe by the Labour Day Classic?

Well there are several vaccines that could come available in the same time frame. Several will require 2 shots. OTOH ( using 20M as the example ): by the time 20M get the 1st shot more will be vaccine does will be available. It's not like 10M get vaccinated in the 1st week and they reserve the 2nd dose for that same group.

I've lost track of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine but they were optimistic about it earlier. It's a single dose vaccine.

I suspect that different vaccines will be more effective for different groups as they become available. Regardless this won't be one shop stopping so to speak.  Several companies are looking for approval shortly, Pfizer and Moderna at the moment.

It's reasonable to think there might be 3 - 6 vaccines available in January to some portion of the population.  How many will be initially unwilling to get any particular vaccine is a question. But many folks will be willing as doses become available so it's somewhat moot. The more that get the shots reduces the spread potentially and builds confidence etc. Kind of a supply / demand issue.

Guessing Labor Day when a large portion of the population has had at least the 1st vaccination is a good guess. It's going to take several months to start and build that momentum. End of 2021 when we hit the majority of people also sounds realistic.

It's a TBD as we see when slowing of infections / deaths occurs as people are vaccinated more widely.

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2020, 08:32:45 PM »

Depends how far down the conspiracy rabbit hole you go.

If vaccinations are mandatory, I suspect you're going to get a serious "human rights" push back from people who don't want to be forced to put something in their bodies, and I don't know how you'd legally do that in Canada (though JT is really good at not following rules, and making other people do their dirty work).

If vaccinations aren't mandatory, the efficacy and timeline of vaccinations won't be as effective as it could be.  So do you let vaccinated people go back to life as "normal" while non vaccinated people are under lockdown?  How do you differentiate between vaccinated and not.  Couple that with not enough vaccine being available to the whole population at the same time (even if they did want to take it), so how do you choose who does and doesn't get it, which in turn could have a significant negative effect on those who want to get vaccinated, but have to wait.

All of it looks like the plot to an 80s post apocalyptic film, and the possibility for increased civil unrest is very real.

TLDR and getting back to the thread topic - the existence of a vaccine doesn't necessarily mean a 2021 season is a go.

Might mean a delayed start to the season but at some point a decision has to be made, go or no go. I think we'll get a season but what it looks like I have no idea.
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Bombers9256
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« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2020, 08:53:52 PM »

NO ONE WAS ALARMED BY THE STATE OF THE LEAGUE ADDRESS?!

I was expecting that in the months since they cancelled the season they would?ve had more to offer than, ?the cfl is different, we need bums in seats.? Um, wasn?t the whole friggin point of this about changing the business model so that the CFL wouldn?t have to keep losing money?! Forget COVID, the league was already tanking!!! That?s all you have Randy? More of the same? At this rate, we won?t have a league for much longer.
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« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2020, 09:05:43 PM »

NO ONE WAS ALARMED BY THE STATE OF THE LEAGUE ADDRESS?!

I was expecting that in the months since they cancelled the season they would?ve had more to offer than, ?the cfl is different, we need bums in seats.? Um, wasn?t the whole friggin point of this about changing the business model so that the CFL wouldn?t have to keep losing money?! Forget COVID, the league was already tanking!!! That?s all you have Randy? More of the same? At this rate, we won?t have a league for much longer.

Agree, fire the bum and save the $750K. January 1, hire someone that gives a crap about this league.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2020, 11:51:54 PM »

NO ONE WAS ALARMED BY THE STATE OF THE LEAGUE ADDRESS?!

I was expecting that in the months since they cancelled the season they would?ve had more to offer than, ?the cfl is different, we need bums in seats.? Um, wasn?t the whole friggin point of this about changing the business model so that the CFL wouldn?t have to keep losing money?! Forget COVID, the league was already tanking!!! That?s all you have Randy? More of the same? At this rate, we won?t have a league for much longer.

Not that it?s not on Ambrose to figure it out (and he?s certainly compensated sufficiently to expect solutions), but I just don?t get what people are hoping for. Change the business model? To what? Convince TSN to pay way, way more money so that the league doesn?t depend on gate? Charge corporate types to pay massive sponsorship payments for more jersey patches?
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Bombers9256
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« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2020, 01:33:14 AM »

You make a great point. And I don?t know the answer. But I also know they can?t NOT change. They can?t keep losing money every year and hope to survive. Getting back this coming year is great, but the bigger concern needs to be the continuing stability of the league.
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« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2020, 03:00:58 AM »

Don't count on a vaccine, especially if that is a requirement to attend games.

I know there was a piece done about Ticketmaster requiring people to get vaccines to attend events, but in my opinion, that won't fly!

Fans are already attending games less and less. And there is at least some subset of the population (myself included) that won't be at the front of the line to get a vaccine (in my opinion) that was rushed to market.

 I am totally with the same boat as Donnie. Plus I am on another biological drug that might prove I won?t even need the vaccine.

And Blue or Die I choose to not reply to your any of your posts relating to any of this if you?re wondering.
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Sec223
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« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2020, 12:35:59 PM »

In a perfect world this plague never would have happened. It did however. The vaccine raises lots of discussion.Many people will rush to take it.Many people will wait. If it's perfectly safe group 1 will be protected while many in group 2 may get sick or die because they didn't believe it was safe. Who's right ? Who's wrong ? We'll find out soon. I missed my Regina trip last year and don't want to miss it again Smiley
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2020, 01:50:22 PM »

Not that it?s not on Ambrose to figure it out (and he?s certainly compensated sufficiently to expect solutions), but I just don?t get what people are hoping for. Change the business model? To what? Convince TSN to pay way, way more money so that the league doesn?t depend on gate? Charge corporate types to pay massive sponsorship payments for more jersey patches?

I've suggested an SMS reduced by 25% and a roster reduced by 4 players ( to 42 from 46 ). Losing 4 players somewhat offsets lowering the SMS. How that would break down within the ratio might be a more difficult aspect.

That lowers total costs even if it's only for the 2021 season. Revenues will be down even more than in recent seasons due to lower gate etc.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2020, 02:45:56 PM »

You make a great point. And I don?t know the answer. But I also know they can?t NOT change. They can?t keep losing money every year and hope to survive. Getting back this coming year is great, but the bigger concern needs to be the continuing stability of the league.

Yeah I get that you're thinking bigger picture and pandemic or not work should always be done to grow/change revenue streams to adapt and ensure long term stability. However, I'm really more concerned about the short term (getting back to playing while the pandemic is either going on or in its later stages) since, even though we saw teams pre-pandemic taking significant losses, these were sporadic and changed year to year so I wouldn't say we are on an overall downward trajectory, just that some teams like BC and Montreal are having some really bad times in the present. In the past, this was Toronto, and now new ownership has fixed some of these problems. I guess what I'm saying is, pandemic aside, these circumstances are not unprecedented and it sort of is what it is.

I've suggested an SMS reduced by 25% and a roster reduced by 4 players ( to 42 from 46 ). Losing 4 players somewhat offsets lowering the SMS. How that would break down within the ratio might be a more difficult aspect.

That lowers total costs even if it's only for the 2021 season. Revenues will be down even more than in recent seasons due to lower gate etc.

This will probably be necessary in being part of the solution. Cost reduction is important but the real question is on the revenue end IMO.
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2020, 02:54:43 PM »

I've suggested an SMS reduced by 25% and a roster reduced by 4 players ( to 42 from 46 ). Losing 4 players somewhat offsets lowering the SMS. How that would break down within the ratio might be a more difficult aspect.

That lowers total costs even if it's only for the 2021 season. Revenues will be down even more than in recent seasons due to lower gate etc.

Do they even need to do that though?  I might be wrong here, but doesn't the lack of playing in 2020 (and the subsequent players not getting paid) mean all of their contracts are now void and all players are FA?  That would likely translate into a defacto shifting down of salaries by some amount, with the owners (rightfully) claiming revenues are dropping so salaries drop.  Of course, this would lead to massive team upheaval, but the reality is we're already there - players are now a year older, some players will retroactively retire to pursue careers outside of football due to no 2020 season, some players on ELCs will have given up the football dream in order to pursue better money in the non sports world (not hard for ELC players), etc, etc.

Now, moving down the SMS will have an enforcement effect on this, but I think it will likely happen generically anyway.  Reducing the roster size by 10% may alleviate some of the issues.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2020, 03:24:50 PM »

Do they even need to do that though?  I might be wrong here, but doesn't the lack of playing in 2020 (and the subsequent players not getting paid) mean all of their contracts are now void and all players are FA?  That would likely translate into a defacto shifting down of salaries by some amount, with the owners (rightfully) claiming revenues are dropping so salaries drop.  Of course, this would lead to massive team upheaval, but the reality is we're already there - players are now a year older, some players will retroactively retire to pursue careers outside of football due to no 2020 season, some players on ELCs will have given up the football dream in order to pursue better money in the non sports world (not hard for ELC players), etc, etc.

Now, moving down the SMS will have an enforcement effect on this, but I think it will likely happen generically anyway.  Reducing the roster size by 10% may alleviate some of the issues.

I could be wrong but I believe the status of 2020 contracts remains to be seen at this point. I could have missed something though. I think it's fair to assume null and void, but I don't know if that's been determined yet.
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wpg#1
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2020, 03:42:30 PM »

If it means getting back to normal, and going to Bomber games, count me in !!
I'll be first in line for the needle if nobody else wants to.
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2020, 03:50:15 PM »

If it means getting back to normal, and going to Bomber games, count me in !!
I'll be first in line for the needle if nobody else wants to.

The first batch of doses is already spoken for according to the news last night

Health Care Workers
Police
Fire Department
Elderly
High Risk
Grocery Store Workers
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wpg#1
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« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2020, 04:10:20 PM »

The first batch of doses is already spoken for according to the news last night

Health Care Workers
Police
Fire Department
Elderly
High Risk
Grocery Store Workers

Yes, I know ? I'm just saying. I will be getting the vaccine !! My wife will certainly be one of those firsts though.
These are VERY VERY smart people working on this stuff. I'm not concerned.
I'm just so looking forward to whatever normal will be in the future.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2020, 05:40:06 PM »

Do they even need to do that though?  I might be wrong here, but doesn't the lack of playing in 2020 (and the subsequent players not getting paid) mean all of their contracts are now void and all players are FA?  That would likely translate into a defacto shifting down of salaries by some amount, with the owners (rightfully) claiming revenues are dropping so salaries drop.  Of course, this would lead to massive team upheaval, but the reality is we're already there - players are now a year older, some players will retroactively retire to pursue careers outside of football due to no 2020 season, some players on ELCs will have given up the football dream in order to pursue better money in the non sports world (not hard for ELC players), etc, etc.

Now, moving down the SMS will have an enforcement effect on this, but I think it will likely happen generically anyway.  Reducing the roster size by 10% may alleviate some of the issues.

Complicated question. The SMS extends through the 2020 and 2021 season. It's a negotiation between the league and CFLPA. Whether existing rosters continue or not the SMS is a separate issue. It can't be "re-tooled " automatically by just shuffling out a bunch of high paid players. Taking back things already in any Union agreement is never an easy task regardless of the reasoning.

One result might be that all players have become free agents. IMO that's not in the interest of the league or the players.  OTOH using just the Bombers as an example, we already have 30 players than would be potential free agents going into 2021. Other teams might be in similar situations. The team roster will be different than it would have been in 2020.

Are players legally due their 2020 salaries? That's another big question.

Example: Mike Reilly sued the Lions for $250K of guaranteed money for the 2020 season. They have stated he will return for the 2021 season. If they have to pay him that money, what pocket does it come out of in regard to both the 2021 SMS and general expenses against profit and loss?

In most free agency periods teams use up the balance of their unused SMS from to re-sign potential free agents before the end of the calendar year. 

How would the 2021 SMS be modified to account for that whether it's reduced or maintained?

Massive upheaval in rosters is a possibility. Whether it comes down to that we'll see. Again, IMO that's not good for anybody.

Like most problems players will have varied responses and willingness to agree. Somewhat like the option given to opt out of existing contracts granted earlier. Or in the NFL where players just opted out of playing the 2020 season. Obviously for the CFL we didn't get a 2020 season so opting out of playing a 2021 season is longer reaching question. Until we know the Covid situation whenever TC starts we don't know how players will react.

Fingers crossed things can be worked out.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 05:46:30 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2020, 08:34:37 PM »

Complicated question. The SMS extends through the 2020 and 2021 season. It's a negotiation between the league and CFLPA. Whether existing rosters continue or not the SMS is a separate issue. It can't be "re-tooled " automatically by just shuffling out a bunch of high paid players. Taking back things already in any Union agreement is never an easy task regardless of the reasoning.

One result might be that all players have become free agents. IMO that's not in the interest of the league or the players.  OTOH using just the Bombers as an example, we already have 30 players than would be potential free agents going into 2021. Other teams might be in similar situations. The team roster will be different than it would have been in 2020.

Are players legally due their 2020 salaries? That's another big question.

Example: Mike Reilly sued the Lions for $250K of guaranteed money for the 2020 season. They have stated he will return for the 2021 season. If they have to pay him that money, what pocket does it come out of in regard to both the 2021 SMS and general expenses against profit and loss?

In most free agency periods teams use up the balance of their unused SMS from to re-sign potential free agents before the end of the calendar year. 

How would the 2021 SMS be modified to account for that whether it's reduced or maintained?

Massive upheaval in rosters is a possibility. Whether it comes down to that we'll see. Again, IMO that's not good for anybody.

Like most problems players will have varied responses and willingness to agree. Somewhat like the option given to opt out of existing contracts granted earlier. Or in the NFL where players just opted out of playing the 2020 season. Obviously for the CFL we didn't get a 2020 season so opting out of playing a 2021 season is longer reaching question. Until we know the Covid situation whenever TC starts we don't know how players will react.

Fingers crossed things can be worked out.

Admittedly, my knowledge of the particulars of CFL contracts is limited to what I find on the net, but 3DN had an article which stated the following

One word in particular appears in a clause embedded in all standard player contracts signed in the CFL. Line 16 reads as follows:
It is mutually understood and agreed that if the operation of the Canadian Football League is suspended, this Contract shall immediately be terminated and the remuneration to be paid to the Player shall be on the basis as provided by Paragraph 11 herein.


And Paragraph 11 indicates

As for salaries throughout the season, paragraph 11 stipulates that players are only entitled to compensation for work they?ve already provided. At this time, most players have not been earned a dollar since the end of the 2019 season because no games have been played in 2020. That could allow the CFL to suspend operations without paying its players any further cash.

So, fundamentally, I would read that no players are entitled to any salary from in season if no games are played.  They may have gotten paid bonuses linked to calendar dates, but aren't entitled to anything else.

Since the CFL did suspend operations (cancellation of the 2020 is effectively suspending operations), it would seem likely that all contracts are now cancelled.  Now, there could be a Force Majeure case made of some sort here, in that the suspension of the CFL season was not made due to performance or financial issues directly related to the CFL, but rather outside influences beyond the control of anyone, but it's hard to picture who would make those arguments.

https://3downnation.com/2020/04/06/all-cfl-players-could-become-free-agents-if-season-suspended/

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GOLDMEMBER
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« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2020, 01:21:57 AM »

Yes, I know ? I'm just saying. I will be getting the vaccine !! My wife will certainly be one of those firsts though.
These are VERY VERY smart people working on this stuff. I'm not concerned.
I'm just so looking forward to whatever normal will be in the future.
here here
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« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2020, 06:00:51 AM »

Count me in as getting the vaccine as soon as it is available.  No pharmaceutical company or government agency would release the vaccine to the general population without homework, sufficient testing, positive results and confidence that prove it safe and effective.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2020, 02:04:30 PM »

BlueInCgy you may be correct about the contract comments you posted. I don't know whether there is a Force Majeure clause either.

I'm certainly not privy to anything more than forum info. We haven't heard anything official from the league to agree or disagree with 3rddown that all players might become free agents.

That scares me. I also did hear about any resolution regarding the Lions / Mike Reilly about his lawsuit. Only heard they expected him to play in 2021.

Back to the vaccine, I'll get one when it's available. There will be a long list of 1st responder's and others ahead of me. So I can't say when my opportunity will come up but when it does, I will.

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TBURGESS
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« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2020, 02:19:51 PM »

Admittedly, my knowledge of the particulars of CFL contracts is limited to what I find on the net, but 3DN had an article which stated the following

One word in particular appears in a clause embedded in all standard player contracts signed in the CFL. Line 16 reads as follows:
It is mutually understood and agreed that if the operation of the Canadian Football League is suspended, this Contract shall immediately be terminated and the remuneration to be paid to the Player shall be on the basis as provided by Paragraph 11 herein.


And Paragraph 11 indicates

As for salaries throughout the season, paragraph 11 stipulates that players are only entitled to compensation for work they?ve already provided. At this time, most players have not been earned a dollar since the end of the 2019 season because no games have been played in 2020. That could allow the CFL to suspend operations without paying its players any further cash.

So, fundamentally, I would read that no players are entitled to any salary from in season if no games are played.  They may have gotten paid bonuses linked to calendar dates, but aren't entitled to anything else.

Since the CFL did suspend operations (cancellation of the 2020 is effectively suspending operations), it would seem likely that all contracts are now cancelled.  Now, there could be a Force Majeure case made of some sort here, in that the suspension of the CFL season was not made due to performance or financial issues directly related to the CFL, but rather outside influences beyond the control of anyone, but it's hard to picture who would make those arguments.

https://3downnation.com/2020/04/06/all-cfl-players-could-become-free-agents-if-season-suspended/
Lawyers are going to have a great time arguing what the word suspended means. The CFL's lawyers that the league wasn't and isn't suspended. Managment is still in place and the league is still moving forward for a 2021 season. The CFLPA lawyers will argue that the 2020 season was suspended, so the contracts are over.

IIRC the league said they were cancelling the 2020 season, not suspending it, so my guess is they will win the argument, but I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

As for the vaccine... I'll get it as soon as it's availble to me. If I were running things, and I'm not, I'd make it so you got an offical document and it goes into the medical database to prove that you had both shots and I'd make it manditory to have had the vaccine to travel. If I were any country or cruise line or all incusive etc., I'd make it manditory that people coming in had been vaccinated to greatly reduce the risk of having to shut down yet again.
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the paw
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« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2020, 03:25:29 PM »

Lawyers are going to have a great time arguing what the word suspended means. The CFL's lawyers that the league wasn't and isn't suspended. Managment is still in place and the league is still moving forward for a 2021 season. The CFLPA lawyers will argue that the 2020 season was suspended, so the contracts are over.

IIRC the league said they were cancelling the 2020 season, not suspending it, so my guess is they will win the argument, but I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.



I cant point to concrete evidence, but I believe that when the CFLPA and the league agreed to collaborate on making sure players were mostly eligible for the COVID benefit payments, that was the carrot for the CFLPA to agree that the clause cancelling all contracts would not be in force.  But, if I am not mistaken, all current contracts still have a year tick off the clock.

That means all the free agents from the end of 2019 who were not re-signed, plus anyone whose contract was set to expire after 2020, plus all the guys who elected to opt out of their contract to try the NFL, will all be hitting the free agent market going into 2021.

I expect massive player movement, plus there is a strong likelihood that they "modify" the salary cap for 2021 to accommodate pandemic impacts.  This will allow teams to sign players to somewhat less generous one year deals.  That will act as a bridge to whatever the new business model and CBA is going to be post 2022.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it....
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« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2020, 03:55:35 PM »

Lawyers are going to have a great time arguing what the word suspended means. The CFL's lawyers that the league wasn't and isn't suspended. Managment is still in place and the league is still moving forward for a 2021 season. The CFLPA lawyers will argue that the 2020 season was suspended, so the contracts are over.

IIRC the league said they were cancelling the 2020 season, not suspending it, so my guess is they will win the argument, but I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.


As for the vaccine... I'll get it as soon as it's availble to me. If I were running things, and I'm not, I'd make it so you got an offical document and it goes into the medical database to prove that you had both shots and I'd make it manditory to have had the vaccine to travel. If I were any country or cruise line or all incusive etc., I'd make it manditory that people coming in had been vaccinated to greatly reduce the risk of having to shut down yet again.

Sounds like a fabulously expensive way to blow $$$ for a cash-strapped league!  Undecided
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2020, 05:11:35 PM »

The league and CFLPA must be in on going discussions. We don't know which direction the arguments are heading.

Contracts can lean one way or the other legally but winning the legal argument is not always in the best interests of a given winning side. The leagues survival is in play here.

Taking a worst case position, if the league has to pay 2020 salaries, the league is done. A 2nd aspect worst case position is total free agency of all players.

Even we we get a covid solution and approval for fans in the stands, either of the above wouldn't be good. Surviving and any sort of team continuity are both important factors.

It's ugly and hopefully I we get more info in December or at least before the draft.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2020, 09:39:38 PM »

I cant point to concrete evidence, but I believe that when the CFLPA and the league agreed to collaborate on making sure players were mostly eligible for the COVID benefit payments, that was the carrot for the CFLPA to agree that the clause cancelling all contracts would not be in force.  But, if I am not mistaken, all current contracts still have a year tick off the clock.

That means all the free agents from the end of 2019 who were not re-signed, plus anyone whose contract was set to expire after 2020, plus all the guys who elected to opt out of their contract to try the NFL, will all be hitting the free agent market going into 2021.

I expect massive player movement, plus there is a strong likelihood that they "modify" the salary cap for 2021 to accommodate pandemic impacts.  This will allow teams to sign players to somewhat less generous one year deals.  That will act as a bridge to whatever the new business model and CBA is going to be post 2022.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it....
Good theory. I seem to remember something like that too.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2020, 01:57:55 PM »

Free agency in February 2021 will be interesting. If people don't have confidence in a Covid solution as vaccines come available, will there be an unwillingness of players ( or teams ) to commit to new contracts.

Will teams be willing to have signing bonus contracts without absolute certainty of a season?
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Donny C
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« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2020, 04:45:47 PM »

Hoping you're not the majority.

We will miss you at games, Donny.

I don't think that it will be made mandatory to attend games. Time will tell!

My wife is the CFO for a fairly sizable health organization and meets with doctors...so I will continue to watch the attitude of those in the field.
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Donny C
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« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2020, 09:44:19 PM »

Recent reports indicate that the vaccine will be a 2 does vaccine and not readily available...I don't think the CFL will be able to wait for a vaccine.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2020, 10:02:46 PM »

There are new vaccine info every day. To day on CNN there was a report that there is a new company in the game. There vaccine can be stored at normal fridge temps for long periods of time and is waiting for the US, FDA approval next month. Sounds like this is a one injection vaccine. 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 03:13:41 AM by Pigskin » Logged
the paw
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« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2020, 03:21:07 PM »

There are new vaccine info every day. To day on CNN there was a report that there is a new company in the game. There vaccine can be stored at normal fridge temps for long periods of time and is waiting for the US, FDA approval next month. Sounds like this is a one injection vaccine. 

You are talking about the Oxford vaccine.  It is apparently 70% effective with a single dose, but if they give you a single dose and then a half-dose, that can go up to 90%.  So, still two trips to the doc, but it requires a little less vaccine to be produced.

The two biggest things about the Oxford vaccine are the ability to store it in fridge (as you mentioned) and that it is much more affordable than the others.  In Canada we will probably see all 3 vaccines deployed initially, but globally, I think the Oxford is likely to be the vaccine of choice.

But whether any of these three are widely available prior to a CFL season is pretty speculative. I think by fall, things might look a little more possible. 
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Pigskin
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« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2020, 04:07:17 PM »

You are talking about the Oxford vaccine.  It is apparently 70% effective with a single dose, but if they give you a single dose and then a half-dose, that can go up to 90%.  So, still two trips to the doc, but it requires a little less vaccine to be produced.

The two biggest things about the Oxford vaccine are the ability to store it in fridge (as you mentioned) and that it is much more affordable than the others.  In Canada we will probably see all 3 vaccines deployed initially, but globally, I think the Oxford is likely to be the vaccine of choice.

But whether any of these three are widely available prior to a CFL season is pretty speculative. I think by fall, things might look a little more possible. 

The problem for Canada is, we are not producing any vaccine. We have to rely on other countries.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 04:11:37 PM by Pigskin » Logged
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