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Author Topic: Coronavirus threat to CFL games?  (Read 2681 times)
thurmas
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« on: March 07, 2020, 02:13:05 PM »

NBA is now considering playing games in empty arenas with no fans due to cornonavirus and Europe has seen soccer games played in empty stadiums now due to it as well. I am hoping this coronavirus goes away pronto I would hate to see if it is still around in June the CFL having to consider playing games with no fans like the argos have for years?

https://www.bbc.com/sport/basketball/51780963
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theaardvark
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2020, 02:45:04 PM »

With the amount of alcohol consumed, pretty sure the virus doesn't have a chance in most stadia...

I'm sure, if there is a local presence of the virus, we may see action taken.  And any "at risk" people should be taking precautions and avoiding crowds anyway...

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blueraid
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2020, 02:56:11 PM »

NHL has just told the league's players to avoid contact with the fans....Precautions everywhere and I hope this thing can be under some kind of control world wide soon....It doesn't look good at present
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2020, 03:46:31 AM »

More emphasis on hygiene at stadium would help
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2020, 04:46:56 AM »

Not to open the can of worms, because there's politics involved... but we're more likely than not to see CFL games played to empty stadiums (like in 1st world, G7 Italy right now) or cancelled outright (IMHO).  Heck, there's serious talk of cancelling the olympics, and CFL is small potatoes compared to that.

From respected BBC, scroll down ~3 pages and look at the age/rate chart:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51540981

Pray Winnipeg/Canada is somehow spared because if not, there's a whole lot of our Bomber STH demographic (60-80+) at risk.  Even under 60's aren't in the clear.

I don't want to be alarmist, even though it is alarming.  Take what you are told with a grain of salt.  Prepare accordingly and protect your loved ones.  I wish nothing but the best for all forum members.  Stay safe!

https://static.businessinsider.sg/2020/03/03/5e5f36d9fee23d54ca6d1ff2.png

I won't comment any further, unless possibly if it's moved to the offside forum.
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thurmas
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2020, 01:03:46 PM »

NYSE and TSX lost 1881 and 1441 points this morning in just 1 hour of trading and have now halted trading. I have never seen anything like this in my life time. I work in business development in the trucking industry and we haul mainly steel and lumber if the market continues to crash like this I am very fearful of a major recession now.
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Norm W
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2020, 01:22:41 PM »

It is rather confusing and difficult to assess personal risk; on one hand you have the medical community saying "relax, wash your hands and cough into your sleeve... its inline with getting a common cold or the flu." Yet we have world events being canceled, borders being closed, governments taking unprecedented actions and announcing spending programs in the 10's of millions to combat something they are simultaneously saying isn't a huge concern. A completely mixed message...
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2020, 01:31:56 PM »

Cancelled sporting events or games played without fans in attendance is the least of the current issues.

Stay healthy and don't panic.
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2020, 03:22:08 PM »

If corona virus is still a going concern by the time the CFL season kicks off, we have a much bigger problem than a football season.
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VictorRomano
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2020, 03:49:16 PM »

I survived "The Trough" in the bathroom at the old Winnipeg Arena/Winnipeg Stadium.

Nothing can hurt me.
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Jesse
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2020, 03:50:09 PM »

It is rather confusing and difficult to assess personal risk; on one hand you have the medical community saying "relax, wash your hands and cough into your sleeve... its inline with getting a common cold or the flu." Yet we have world events being canceled, borders being closed, governments taking unprecedented actions and announcing spending programs in the 10's of millions to combat something they are simultaneously saying isn't a huge concern. A completely mixed message...

These are all preventative measures to contain and stop the spread of the virus. Washing our hands on the micro-level, ******** down trips and large events on the macro.
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Blue In Edmonton
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2020, 04:16:48 PM »

I am not in the age demographic where the highest risks are. I am, however, immunocompromised and have a respiratory disease. It is a scary time. If I get COVID-19 I probably die. If you're in optimal health and a young person, this will likely have minimal impact on you. However, a healthy young person with the coronavirus can spread it to someone who is at higher risk.

The problem is that people will see this as "just a cold" and will go about their regular lives. Even Agent Orange in the White House told people that if they're sick they should still just go to work. There are enough people who would listen to that and create major problems for others. I am lucky in that my employer has told sick people to stay home. I also have the green light to stay away from work if I feel that I am at risk. I can work from home or I can access sick leave. I will not incur loss of pay.

As for large sporting events, that's an interesting conundrum. I attended the Jets/Oilers game here last week. I was nervous. I am not attending the Jets game here on Wednesday. I sanitize my own space. The public is not my friend right now. I agree with an earlier post that said that if this is still an issue by the time the CFL season starts, then it's a bigger issue than we'd fear.

There is no vaccine. There is no shot that any one can take as a preventative measure, and the only cure is time. The economic impact appears to be heading in the direction of a massive global recession. I have plenty of opinions on that topic, but I'll leave those for another space.
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2020, 04:30:46 PM »

I have two employees who were in Italy, just outside of Milan, right when the outbreak hit.  I have them working from home for two weeks, because they can, and there's no point in risking it.  Of course, that's only possible for industries which allow for satellite work.  Manual labour positions obviously don't have that advantage, nor do public service positions.

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blue girl
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2020, 06:51:04 PM »

I have a low white cell count and liver disease. I went to my regular dr.s appointment in a hospital last week and will return for my monthly blood work later this week. If this was really that bad I would think that I would be told to stay home. There has to be some common sense here. Wash you hands with soap and water and if you have symptoms then as a precaution stay home. Things you should be doing anyway. BTW four days later I feel fine.
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BLUEBOMBER
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2020, 07:19:33 AM »

CfL may as well delay the season if they have to play in empty stadiums.
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New_Earth_Mud
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2020, 07:52:01 AM »

I have a low white cell count and liver disease. I went to my regular dr.s appointment in a hospital last week and will return for my monthly blood work later this week. If this was really that bad I would think that I would be told to stay home. There has to be some common sense here. Wash you hands with soap and water and if you have symptoms then as a precaution stay home. Things you should be doing anyway. BTW four days later I feel fine.


I have bad COPD    Im going to the Doc this week to see what i should do.

I was and is stupid as i smoked cigs all my life it seems. Its a horrible habit and very hard to get rid of.

We even had a smoking room in my high school.   
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GOLDMEMBER
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2020, 11:01:13 PM »

Well I have one of the most rarest blood diseases in the world.
PNH or Paroxysmal nocturnal hemoglobinuria. Ya look it up if you want. It?s been 4+ years. Thankfully there is a drug I have been on for that time to maintain it. It works well to this point.
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Tiger
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2020, 03:21:09 AM »

Good news: cfl is largely not during flu season. 

Bad news:  no vaccine for 1+ years

We?ll see how it goes
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2020, 08:24:07 AM »

CfL may as well delay the season if they have to play in empty stadiums.

That doesn't help if it doesn't turn out to be a seasonal thing.  No one can say if warmer weather will help.  Didn't help Singapore or Iran with their hot weather, nor N.Italy with their very mild Feb/Mar weather.

So delay until when?  You could delay the season and in another X months the situation is worse.  Also, the TSN contracts may stipulate the games must be played.  If there's not going to be any gate revenue, then the TV would become even more critical.  Many other leagues (in Europe/Iran) have/are looking the same situation and deciding to play empty.  (Until players start getting sick... then it's completely done for.)

Coronaviruses in general are more cold-like (many colds are themselves other coronaviruses).  Flus are not a coronavirus.  The only reason people are talking about the flu is because this new one causes flu-like symptoms (esp fever) whereas colds almost never cause fever in adults.  Flus have a definite season, but colds tend to linger and run around (to greater or lesser extent) nearly all year.
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PurpleReign
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2020, 12:04:55 PM »

People are freaking out for a virus and running scared. Roll Eyes
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booch
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2020, 12:14:02 PM »

Sars and mers before this were worse strains of a virus, and had a higher mortality ability...this will pass like the umpteen others before it..
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theaardvark
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2020, 01:28:14 PM »

Sars and mers before this were worse strains of a virus, and had a higher mortality ability...this will pass like the umpteen others before it..

Horrible take.

Covid-19 has a high transmission rate, stays hidden in normally healthy people, and can be transmitted easily to at risk citizens by these unwitting, unknowing carriers.

Sure, it is not as deadly as SARS or MERS, but it is much more likely to get to at risk people.  It survives outside teh body for extended periods at a range of temperatures / conditions. 

For normally healthy people, and the majority of the population, it is not a concern, no.  But it does put a huge part of our vulnerable population at risk, as well as our health care system...

I know a vaccine is not on the horizon, but I'm not sure that a "controlled burn" concept isn't something to consider.  Infecting healthy people and then quarantining them in a controlled environment, and then allowing them special rights to offer services knowing they are not contagious or at risk of becoming contagious...

We all need to up our sanitation game, regardless... and we need to protect our vulnerable..
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bluebeard
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2020, 02:13:07 PM »

As an old guy with health problems, I agree with everything in your post Aards.  Great job explaining.
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2020, 05:14:27 PM »

Declared a pandemic, this is bad.  Happy I sold most of my stocks.  This will bring an immense buying opportunity zoon.
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3rdand1.5
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2020, 05:26:45 PM »

Declared a pandemic, this is bad.  Happy I sold most of my stocks.  This will bring an immense buying opportunity zoon.

Yes, one positive is that a potential exists for some good stock/investment deals...Read somewhere that Buffet is down about 4 Billion from this blip....hard to fathom numbers like that
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pjrocksmb
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This is the CFL- support our league- Go Canada!


« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2020, 05:37:24 PM »

Yes, one positive is that a potential exists for some good stock/investment deals...Read somewhere that Buffet is down about 4 Billion from this blip....hard to fathom numbers like that
I was very lucky with my timing but still holding a few stocks that I'm taking a beating on.
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I don't watch the No Fun League b/c I live in Canada and love the CFL
blue girl
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2020, 08:19:46 PM »

I could be wrong but I believe that more people get and die from the flu. As a matter of fact if you go to any personal care home or hospital at this time of year they'll have signs telling you not to enter if you have flu like symptoms. I was on two transit buses today that were full. I'm more likely to get sick from being in such an enclosed place. Until my Dr. tells me to self quarantine I'm just continuing on like always.
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thurmas
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2020, 08:41:18 PM »

NCAA march madness and frozen four will be played to no fans just family and essential staff that will be a huge blow to the host city for the final four.

https://www.tsn.ca/ncaa-announces-li...ness-1.1456170
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pjrocksmb
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This is the CFL- support our league- Go Canada!


« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2020, 10:13:41 PM »

I could be wrong but I believe that more people get and die from the flu. As a matter of fact if you go to any personal care home or hospital at this time of year they'll have signs telling you not to enter if you have flu like symptoms. I was on two transit buses today that were full. I'm more likely to get sick from being in such an enclosed place. Until my Dr. tells me to self quarantine I'm just continuing on like always.
You are correct but I assume you are healthy.  Big risk for those that are older or have health issues.  In MB for the time being the risk is low but it rises as this spreads.  This risk to the CFL season is low to medium in my mind.  Higher risks in the cities with lots of cases.
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I don't watch the No Fun League b/c I live in Canada and love the CFL
blue girl
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2020, 10:48:28 PM »

You are correct but I assume you are healthy.  Big risk for those that are older or have health issues.  In MB for the time being the risk is low but it rises as this spreads.  This risk to the CFL season is low to medium in my mind.  Higher risks in the cities with lots of cases.
No if you read another post I made you'll see that I have a low white cell count and liver disease. But I went to my Dr.s appointment at a hospital and I will be back later in the week for my mandatory monthly blood test unless I hear from a Dr. not to go.
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2020, 11:41:15 PM »

No if you read another post I made you'll see that I have a low white cell count and liver disease. But I went to my Dr.s appointment at a hospital and I will be back later in the week for my mandatory monthly blood test unless I hear from a Dr. not to go.
I'm really sorry to hear that.  Sorry I didn't see you post that earlier.  My bad.  Take care of yourself and I hope you can avoid further health issues and this illness.
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I don't watch the No Fun League b/c I live in Canada and love the CFL
Tiger
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« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2020, 11:45:08 PM »

NCAA march madness and frozen four will be played to no fans just family and essential staff that will be a huge blow to the host city for the final four.

https://www.tsn.ca/ncaa-announces-li...ness-1.1456170

Wow
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blue girl
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« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2020, 12:18:21 AM »

I want to make it clear that I think this is serious. I just think that you're in as much danger of contracting it on a bus or in an elevator. I think that the real reason for all the panic is because there's no cure but thankfully so far Manitoba has had no cases. The CFL pre season is 10 1/2 weeks away. Hopefully this is over by then.
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The Zipp
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« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2020, 12:44:14 AM »

NBA season suspended


Bombers might be two year champs...without playing another game
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2020, 01:22:17 AM »

NBA season suspended


Bombers might be two year champs...without playing another game

This is crazy. Absolutely crazy!
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Big Daddy
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2020, 03:26:29 AM »

I want to make it clear that I think this is serious. I just think that you're in as much danger of contracting it on a bus or in an elevator. I think that the real reason for all the panic is because there's no cure but thankfully so far Manitoba has had no cases. The CFL pre season is 10 1/2 weeks away. Hopefully this is over by then.

There are no cases in MB yet.  There will be in the next day or two. 

I'm not saying that to be alarmist or to scare anyone, it is just inevitable.

I am medical.  From what I know now, and I will be very surprised if that changes, this is a flu that is more contagious and is showing a higher fatality rate than any flu virus with which we are familiar.  But - the fatality rate is still really low, and is mostly restricted to very susceptible individuals (and the susceptible are equally important of course), but the vast majority of individuals here in Canada will be okay.

This is not Ebola - this is not a virus with a high fatality rate that is like a plague to be avoided at all costs for fear of imminent death.

It's a worldwide problem, and will probably hit everywhere.

But it isn't a death sentence.

 
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GOLDMEMBER
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« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2020, 03:30:13 AM »

Th Bombers make and sell more mini GCs so I can buy one!  Smiley
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2020, 05:17:23 AM »

I know a vaccine is not on the horizon, but I'm not sure that a "controlled burn" concept isn't something to consider.  Infecting healthy people and then quarantining them in a controlled environment, and then allowing them special rights to offer services knowing they are not contagious or at risk of becoming contagious...

Nope, it's already been shown people can catch it again, or it hides away in the body and comes back days/weeks later (no one knows yet).  It also has mutated into 2 (or more depending on who you believe) strains.  One doesn't confer immunity to the other.  Even worse, apparently the second time you get it is worse than the first, and that is often when it turns deadly.

If there is weak or no immunity in many/most people, then the "I'll beat the virus and then be immune" tactic may be a poor choice.  Not catching it at all would seem to be prudent.

The 15%+ hospitalization rate overall is also something you want to avoid as who wants to be on a respirator, dialysis or intubated?  And once those beds are already filled up...

I could be wrong but I believe that more people get and die from the flu.

So far... Guess you didn't look at my flu vs covid chart in my page 1 post.  Flu R0 is under 2.  Covid R0 4+ (estimated).  3.4-3.6% FR.  Work out the math... Flu almost never kills healthy under-70s.  Covid is killing perfectly fit 29 year old Chinese doctors.

Tom Hanks has it now.  I'm waiting to see if money can cure it, as that will be quite interesting.

This risk to the CFL season is low to medium in my mind.  Higher risks in the cities with lots of cases.

NBA puts that hail mary to bed.  Ambrosie is planning with TSN and the owners what they are going to do as we speak, I bet.

Every city will have lots of cases.  Tiny towns without commuters may be the only safe haven.  Or stay in your home.

Stay safe everyone!!  Hope for a miracle!!  I want to see that pennant unveiled at IGF in June -- in person...
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theaardvark
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« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2020, 02:28:35 PM »

Nope, it's already been shown people can catch it again, or it hides away in the body and comes back days/weeks later (no one knows yet).  It also has mutated into 2 (or more depending on who you believe) strains.  One doesn't confer immunity to the other.  Even worse, apparently the second time you get it is worse than the first, and that is often when it turns deadly.

If there is weak or no immunity in many/most people, then the "I'll beat the virus and then be immune" tactic may be a poor choice.  Not catching it at all would seem to be prudent.

The 15%+ hospitalization rate overall is also something you want to avoid as who wants to be on a respirator, dialysis or intubated?  And once those beds are already filled up...


Of course, prevention is the key, and if there was a way to ensure no one else gets infected, that would be the goal.  But we all know, people interact in a community, and it is going to spread.  How quick, how extensively, and with what consequences are yet to be fully realized.

Each community around the world has different levels of socialization, and different natural protections (like temperature).  So I can see this being a case of varying severity as time goes by.  The fact that Hanks got it in Australia, when it is summer there, doesn't bode well for Trump's assessment that it will go away once it warms up. 

They say Italy is 10 days ahead of the US in progression of the virus.  They have a different social structure and health care system there.  It will be interesting to see how closely the US parallels other countries.

I guess we will see as it progresses.  Tracking re-infection rates and mortalities will be something we can't really ***** right now, they may be bad, or they may not. 

What is weird is that I think there are going to be a few advantages to being in the hard hit areas now..  they are going to "get it out of the way" and then become a safe space, with herd immunity (among those that survive, that is, not wishing illness or death on anyone, just making an observation).

Places like Italy might become a tourist destination in 6 months because it will have run its course there, and they will be starved for tourist dollars.  There are probably some amazing deals coming that I just might take advantage of...

And once it runs its course in China, they turn from being victim to being the first ones back open for business...  shrewd investors must be looking at these concepts, it will be interesting to see if they start buying futures out 6 months on certain sectors...

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TBURGESS
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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2020, 02:33:47 PM »

Quote
So far, the new coronavirus has led to more than 100,000 illnesses and more than 3,000 deaths worldwide. But that's nothing compared with the flu, also called influenza. In the U.S. alone, the flu has caused an estimated 34 million illnesses, 350,000 hospitalizations and 20,000 deaths this season, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
- https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html

Quote
The death rate from seasonal flu is typically around 0.1% in the U.S., according to The New York Times.

The death rate for COVID-19 appears to be higher than that of the flu.

In the study published Feb. 18 in the China CDC Weekly, researchers found a death rate from COVID-19 to be around 2.3% in mainland China. Another study of about 1,100 hospitalized patients in China, published Feb. 28 in the New England Journal of Medicine, found that the overall death rate was slightly lower, around 1.4%.

Still, the death rate for COVID-19 appears to vary by location and an individual's age, among other factors. For instance, in Hubei Province, the epicenter of the outbreak, the death rate reached 2.9%; in other provinces of China, that rate was just 0.4%, according to the China CDC Weekly study. In addition, older adults have been hit the hardest. The death rate soars to 14.8% in those 80 and older; among those ages 70 to 79, the COVID-19 death rate in China seems to be about 8%; it?s 3.6% for those ages 60 to 69; 1.3% for 50 to 59; 0.4% for the age group 40 to 49; and just 0.2% for people ages 10 to 39. No deaths in children under 9 have been reported.

Though the death rate for COVID-19 is unclear, most research suggests it is higher than that of the seasonal flu.

You can't prevent it. You can't ensure that no one else gets infected. You can take precautions. Wash your hands. Stay at home as much as possible if you're part of a vulnerable population. Work from home if you can. Don't shake hands, finger guns are better. Don't travel if you're over 70. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Don't worry about it, because worry doesn't help.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2020, 02:37:39 PM »

There are no cases in MB yet.  There will be in the next day or two.  

And you were right. First case in MB officially as of today.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2020, 03:28:46 PM »

I would say we can upgrade the threat level to serious. At least there's a bit of time and summer usually means an easing of flu related spread. We shall see.
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TrueBlue75
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« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2020, 04:31:16 PM »

The CFL Combine is cancelled according to Farhan Lalji. And now from the CFL:

But the health and safety of the entire CFL family is paramount ? and it is  increasingly clear that we owe it to each other to take some extraordinary and temporary measures. That is why, effective immediately, we are cancelling our plans for regional scouting combines (in Montreal March 13 and in Edmonton March 20) and the CFL Combine ( in Toronto March 26-28).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 04:40:55 PM by TrueBlue75 » Logged
blueraid
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« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2020, 04:53:42 PM »

Health comes first over all....Sad to see our combine go by the boards BUT it is in the best interests of everyone right now... Professional health authorities are claiming this thing could be around a year or more....Don't like the sounds of that
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2020, 05:18:45 PM »

I'm ashamed that this thought popped into my head, but it did, so at the risk of being lambasted: at least we don't have any top picks in this year's draft. It's not a year we're counting on making hay there.
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gobombersgo
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« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2020, 09:10:00 PM »

Other CFL events affected;
- Randy Ambrosie cancels road trip visit to #Halifax.

- BC Lions 1st team to cancel free agent work-outs.
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« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2020, 01:12:43 AM »

Sure got serious quick.  I put threat to season at high now.
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2020, 02:07:23 AM »

None of us I think saw this coming....it escalated to a worldwide pandemic very rapidly.   The entertainment industry overall will take a huge hit....we could be talking a global recession.   Let's hope I'm wrong!!
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Blue In Edmonton
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« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2020, 04:52:39 AM »

There are no cases in MB yet.  There will be in the next day or two. 

I'm not saying that to be alarmist or to scare anyone, it is just inevitable.

I am medical.  From what I know now, and I will be very surprised if that changes, this is a flu that is more contagious and is showing a higher fatality rate than any flu virus with which we are familiar.  But - the fatality rate is still really low, and is mostly restricted to very susceptible individuals (and the susceptible are equally important of course), but the vast majority of individuals here in Canada will be okay.

This is not Ebola - this is not a virus with a high fatality rate that is like a plague to be avoided at all costs for fear of imminent death.

It's a worldwide problem, and will probably hit everywhere.

But it isn't a death sentence.

 

That depends on who you are. It will kill me. And it's people who are laissez faire about it who will contract it and spread it to those of us at high risk. And yes, I'm self-isolating.
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Blue In Edmonton
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« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2020, 04:56:08 AM »



Every city will have lots of cases.  Tiny towns without commuters may be the only safe haven.  Or stay in your home.



[/quote]

Who lives in tiny towns? Old people. They travel. Many go to the US for the winter. The US is not testing. The US is in denial (at the top level of government). Those folks will be coming home soon. They are as much of a risk as people in cities. They just contact fewer people on a typical day.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2020, 06:36:21 AM »

None of us I think saw this coming....it escalated to a worldwide pandemic very rapidly.

Some of us did as early as late January.  Depends what media you read and what media you ignore.

My tell was when Macau gambling city closed almost all the casinos Feb 4.  Anyone who knows the Chinese and Macau will understand that at that instant the virus was for real and to not rest on laurels.  It's the equivalent of shutting down Vegas.  That would never happen unless it was not "just the flu".

Who lives in tiny towns? Old people. They travel. Many go to the US for the winter. The US is not testing. The US is in denial (at the top level of government). Those folks will be coming home soon. They are as much of a risk as people in cities. They just contact fewer people on a typical day.

Then that leaves going into lockdown in your home.  You are right about all the snow birds... I have a ton of them in my area.  FL, CA, AZ all have outbreaks now.  Bringing it all back here in April.  Fun.

Don't chide the USA.  Canada is doing bupkis.  I'm pretty sure the Canada media releases are still parroting "threat is low".  Everyone who believed them and didn't get their TP and canned beans/meat because "it's just a flu" is now staring at empty shelves and stinky britches.  Everyone who is naturally sceptical should be doing just fine.

Canada hasn't stopped any flights except some to China.  At least the USA has stopped flights from all the risky places.  I laugh (cry?) when each day the new cases in Canada are listed and a large percentage of them are "recently returned from outbreak country X" (or their spouse), but no, let's not temporarily stop flights from country X.  Heaven forbid.

Keep safe!  Good luck to everyone here!!
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2020, 01:19:03 PM »

The threat level is still low. Chances of getting Covid-19 is orders of magnitude lower than getting the Flu. It will likely go through some old folks homes or hospices like wildfire and juice the death rate, but even if you do get it, survival rates are in the high 90's unless you're over 70 or have preexisting conditions. Even 80+ folks have an 85%+ survival rate.

Stats I've read, say that 30-70% (The wide variation has to do with how useful the steps being taken by governments are) of the population of the planet will eventually get this virus. We've already lost the ability to contain it in one place, that's why it's now called a Pandemic.

The US stopping all flights from Europe for 30 days is a knee jerk reaction, not a measured approach. They still think they can hide behind a 'wall' and keep it out of their country, but that's not how it works. It's already in the US and has been for weeks. It will spread even without more 'coming in' from outside their borders and because they aren't testing properly for it, it will spread without them even knowing about it.

People who are panic buying are idiots, especially those buying TP because it's a respiratory, not a gastrointestinal illness. That being said, having a couple of weeks of food in the house just in case you need it, is always a good idea. 

It's pretty simple... Wash your hands, wipe surfaces, and keep 1 meter away from other people so you don't get it and so you don't become a carrier.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2020, 01:55:36 PM »

Don't chide the USA.  Canada is doing bupkis.  I'm pretty sure the Canada media releases are still parroting "threat is low".  Everyone who believed them and didn't get their TP and canned beans/meat because "it's just a flu" is now staring at empty shelves and stinky britches.  Everyone who is naturally sceptical should be doing just fine.

Canada hasn't stopped any flights except some to China.  At least the USA has stopped flights from all the risky places.  I laugh (cry?) when each day the new cases in Canada are listed and a large percentage of them are "recently returned from outbreak country X" (or their spouse), but no, let's not temporarily stop flights from country X.  Heaven forbid.

The USA deserves to be chided. Leadership there ignored the problem for weeks, calling it a hoax and overblown, even opting not to get testing kits for COVID-19. All that despite experts saying exactly what happened would happen. A travel ban now solves nothing because the virus has already spread across the globe. The state of Washington has been dealing with the outbreak for a while, so what does a ban do now? And historically, travel bans don't accomplish anything. They're nothing more than knee-jerk reactions meant to obfuscate and then scare the public, fueling the fires of fear and xenophobia. What's hilarious is how this travel ban didn't include the UK despite it having more cases than other countries in Europe. That's sensible. Oh, wait... Now they're stuck playing catch-up in panic mode and the so-called leaders look like idiots for their inaction.

Canada isn't doing "bupkis" if you bother to actually pay attention. Provinces are putting measures in place to mitigate this as best as possible, which is basically what the feds have suggested as best practice based on the advice of experts in the fields of medicine, healthcare, etc. Don't panic, wash your hands, don't travel unless you have to, and avoid large groups and social events. It's common sense stuff.
Imposing travel bans and cancelling flights won't stop a virus that's already made landfall here. Moreover, returning Canadians enter this country by right and the necessary precautions are being taken at those first points of contact. Those measures were put in place a while ago, BTW. From a global standpoint, what Canada is doing basically follows suit.

Where are you getting your information?
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2020, 02:18:07 PM »

I'll put a little more perspective on this from what I've experienced.

I have three machines being built in Tianjin, China right now, and Tianjin was one of the hotter spots in China during the peak of their outbreak.  Now, I'm not one necessarily to believe what the Chinese government (or any other government per se) says about it, but I do trust the input of my staff who are resident in Beijing and Tianjin, whom I have known for years and have spent a significant amount of time with.

They did quarantine pretty much the entire city (28M people) for the better part of three weeks, and it was a hard quarantine, highways closed, government shutdown of all non essential services complete with jail terms for anyone who did not comply.  Life pretty much came to a standstill for them for three weeks, and then it was a controlled return to life as normal.  It's been seven weeks since the initial shutdown, and for the most part as I understand it, life in Tianjin is pretty much back to the way it used to be.  I have full staff back at my facilities, the overall impact to me was about four weeks, and now my biggest problem is that I likely will have a hard time getting a ship lined up for my last machine, as the excess of products leaving China over the next few weeks will likely overwhelm the available capacity (that being said, there have been a lot of half empty ships sailing for the last month).

What's my point in all this?  Simple, be smart about this, and we'll all get through it.  Don't take any unnecessary risks, be prepared to (possibly) have limited access to resources for a couple of weeks, wash your hands, don't share cigarettes/drinks/etc, don't cough/sneeze on people.  I've personally got enough supplies in the house for a month for me, my wife, and my dogs, but I routinely have at least two weeks so that's not a big departure for me.  If you have the ability to work from home, make sure all those systems work in advance and take whatever implements you need home with you at the end of the day so if required you don't disrupt your life too much.
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booch
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« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2020, 02:24:03 PM »

from what I was told from an associate there, as well as reading a few reputable sources is that the incidences of it there is already going down and that it is becoming less of a threat there as the days progress, and will follow a similar pattern in all the other affected areas..most likely across the ocean to this neck of the world it won't reach the levels it did there....
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theaardvark
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« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2020, 02:45:41 PM »

And, most importantly, stock up on toilet paper  Roll Eyes.  I cannot believe the hysteria out there for TP.  I went into Sobeys before work, they had the 36 roll packs of my preferred brand on sale for 8.99 (12 triple rolls), reg $15.99... so I bought 4 (which is what I usually do when they are on sale).  

There were tons, and there was a floor to ceiling stack of house brand bulk packs at full price in the entry.  I went back on my way home from Poker, around 9  (bad beat AA vs. QQ, Q on the flop) so I stopped in to grab some more cryovac ribs / tenderloin for the freezer ($2.99/lb) and there were plenty of those, but zero, and I mean ZERO rolls of TP anywhere.  No hand sanitizer (hasn't been for a while) and not a square of TP to spare.  Lots of paper towels...

Just boggle my mind.  If you need 140 rolls of TP to get through a 14 day quarantine, you need to see the doctor about something other than a virus...

The key right now is to reduce the spread speed, short of living in a bubble. there is no way anyone is going to be 100% safe from this, and I have no doubt we will all get it eventually.  Reducing the number of people at any time that are in full blown crisis and needing medical attention will be the key.  If we can avoid the huge spike, and keep it to a constant flow, I can see it being a manageable situation.  The moves made by pro sports and the entertainment business will help with that.  

I don't think that we can stop this pandemic, and Trump ban on travel from Europe is insane and not an effective policy, it just feeds the htsteria.  But I do believe it is going to be manageable, as long as people keep their heads on straight and don't start going crazy gargling bleach and hoarding TP...
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booch
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« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2020, 02:51:14 PM »

I bought 387 packages of TP...selling them out of trunk of my car for 2 bucks a roll...2.50 for the triple ply...you can find me in Southdale Mall Parking lot between hours of 10 a.m and 3 p.m

Also have discounted gently used product as well for people on a budget............
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 03:46:23 PM by booch » Logged
theaardvark
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« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2020, 03:19:45 PM »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabo_(hygiene)

https://youtu.be/0W1auURq_U0

https://youtu.be/Vzb98tQp53I

Not a taboo subject...
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2020, 03:25:36 PM »

What I don't understand is people who actually don't buy toilet paper on the regular anyway.  I buy it whenever it's on sale in a store I'm in, cause it doesn't go bad, there is always a need for it, and running out of it is simply not an option.  That's not to say I have a wall of TP in my basement, but there's always a full 24 pack (minimum) plus four rolls in every bathroom.
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kronic
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« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2020, 03:45:00 PM »

Also have discounted gently used product as well for people on a budget............

****, I might need some of that, cause I nearly pissed my pants laughing at this.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2020, 03:55:53 PM »

What I don't understand is people who actually don't buy toilet paper on the regular anyway.  I buy it whenever it's on sale in a store I'm in, cause it doesn't go bad, there is always a need for it, and running out of it is simply not an option.  That's not to say I have a wall of TP in my basement, but there's always a full 24 pack (minimum) plus four rolls in every bathroom.

Ditto. Honestly, I think this whole TP craze started as a joke on social media. I guess the ignorant, panicky masses were unable to pick up on that and now here we are.
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Colton
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« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2020, 04:00:19 PM »

I went into Sobeys before work, they had the 36 roll packs of my preferred brand on sale for 8.99 (12 triple rolls), reg $15.99... so I bought 4 (which is what I usually do when they are on sale).

Just boggle my mind. If you need 140 rolls of TP to get through a 14 day quarantine, you need to see the doctor about something other than a virus...

Why did you buy 144 rolls of toiler paper then?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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theaardvark
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« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2020, 05:46:58 PM »

Why did you buy 144 rolls of toiler paper then?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

It was on sale, and it is my normal buy level.  This is for the family and the store.  My daughter has Crohn's, so I make sure we never get close to being out, the stress is hard on her as it is...

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« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2020, 06:23:03 PM »

Ditto. Honestly, I think this whole TP craze started as a joke on social media. I guess the ignorant, panicky masses were unable to pick up on that and now here we are.
society moves in herds
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blue girl
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« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2020, 08:51:09 PM »

I also don't get the thing with the toilet paper either. I thought this was a respiratory illness therefore I would stock up on tissues. I do understand your situation though Aardvark. I had Ulcerative Colitis so I know you have to keep stocked up.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 10:33:54 PM by blue girl » Logged
TBURGESS
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« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2020, 09:13:13 PM »

It was on sale, and it is my normal buy level.  This is for the family and the store.  My daughter has Crohn's, so I make sure we never get close to being out, the stress is hard on her as it is...
My wife's got Crohn's. I totally understand.
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2020, 11:14:05 PM »

My wife's got Crohn's. I totally understand.
sorry to hear that, my wife has mild colitis and that's bad enough.... take care
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2020, 03:52:49 AM »

TP sells out not because everyone is expecting the trots.  You need to think 2+ moves ahead.  You're not thinking second order effects.  TP sells out because it's one of the first necessities to disappear when supply chains break down.  Anyone who followed the horrific plight of Venezuelans over the past few years knows that TP became unobtainable at any price, even though they had local factories that had been nationalized.

Also, even if there's enough to go around, the TP will sell out because everyone expects it to sell out (at least the ones who figured it out in advance).  The psychology is as important as the reality.  So I see people running around screaming about all the TP hoarders and how it doesn't make sense... as they now live life without TP once their personal stocks run out.  They failed to predict second order effects.  So who's being dim here, the hoarders or the stinky-britches?

Anyone who understands game theory will instantly recognize the situation.  And don't yell at me, I'm just the messenger.  Now that it's come to pass, I don't even have to report on the reality, as everyone here knows full well what the TP reality is right now.  Curse and yell at reality all you want, it won't get you any TP!  Next up, dried beans, rice, cans, water, etc.

Stay safe!  Be prepared!  Think ahead.  Think for yourself.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2020, 06:16:52 AM »

A travel ban now solves nothing because the virus has already spread across the globe. The state of Washington has been dealing with the outbreak for a while, so what does a ban do now? And historically, travel bans don't accomplish anything. They're nothing more than knee-jerk reactions meant to obfuscate and then scare the public, fueling the fires of fear and xenophobia.

Let's see, until the (tiny number) of non-travel-related community cases showed up just the other day, every single Canada case was travel-related (a traveller or their spouse / close contact).

Here's Edmonton's news tonight:
"With all 29 [Alberta] coronavirus cases being travel related, the province is asking people returning from any international destination to self-isolate for 14 days, even if they are feeling well and not showing any symptoms."
https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/6-new-coronavirus-cases-in-alberta-bringing-province-total-to-29-1.4852304

But, no, as you said, that must only be xenophobia and fear-fires and stopping flights wouldn't (have) accomplish(ed) anything.  Pffft.  Xenophobia has nothing to do with it because those who want flights stopped don't care who the person is who's flying in: they just don't want any person flying in from hotspots.  That would include Canadians!

But wait, there's more...
"Mr. Trudeau said the government will also restrict international flights coming into Canada to a smaller number of airports and bring in additional screening measures for travellers."
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-avoid-non-essential-travel-outside-canada-trudeau-urges/

Hmm, that smells like it's getting close to a flight ban!  Instead of the prudent step (which is coming, I guarantee it), they'll ease you into it with advanced screening and quarantines.  Funny, as you chide the USA for banning some destinations, but Canada one-upped them by screening/quarantining all international destinations!  So Canada is more xenophobic?

"[Garneau] said cruise ships carrying more than 500 people will not be able to stop in Canada until after July 1." (ibid.)

What about that one?  Is it ok to be xenophobic against American, Canadian and European cruise travellers?  That sure sounds like a "ban" to me.  But wait, you said travel bans were ineffective?  So why is Garenau/Trudeau instituting a ban?

Instead of having a wee-wee contest as to whose country is holier, why not focus on the problem and solutions?  Stopping the main source of Canada's infections sounds prudent.  Or at least would have been before they let the cat out of the bag.  Riddle me this: what if the world had stopped all passenger flights to China (and any other infected country) the instant it was clear there was a big problem (mid January).  I guarantee you there would not even be a fraction of the case count we see right now.  But we didn't, so now we're stuck with it.  Bashing the USA helps nothing, and everything you see there is coming here in due course.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2020, 12:36:01 PM »

Apparently there isn't any shortage of product, it is just a logistics issue with re-supply, which then causes concern that there is actually a shortage...  TP manufacturers have lots... you can only get so much through the stores each day, though...
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2020, 02:22:05 PM »

Techno's going all tinfoil hat again.

Just because the current infections are from folks who travelled, doesn't mean we aren't going to get our own infections like other countries before us. It's just a matter of time. Banning flying everywhere might reduce the risk, because it's not just about where you come from it's about riding in a giant tube in close proximity to infected people. Just telling people they shouldn't go on international flights without an actual ban, makes it better for company's, who don't have to repay travellers, and worse for the folks who follow the advice because they are the ones losing the money.

Banning cruise ships is easy. The companies aren't Canadian and most of them have already stopped running for 30 to 60 days anyway. Saying you can't come here when they aren't going anywhere is mostly symbolic.

It's not about stopping the spread of the disease anyway. It's now about slowing the progression so it doesn't overwhelm the medical system. There was a very interesting graph yesterday that showed the bell curve of Covid-19 unchecked and the flattened curve of slowing the progression. Then they put in the line of how many folks the Canadian medical system could accommodate and showed how much we need to reduce the speed of transmission. The question being posed was are we doing enough to slow the progression before we overwhelm the system.

We're not running out of TP. TP companies are simply making huge profits this year. Even if we did run out of TP, bidets can be added to existing toilets in 20 minutes or less. Not a perfect solution, but a pretty good one.

Update: ?Flattening the Curve? is a deadly delusion" - https://medium.com/@joschabach/flattening-the-curve-is-a-deadly-delusion-eea324fe9727 Interesting read saying that containment works and the curve is a lie.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 02:45:22 PM by TBURGESS » Logged

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New_Earth_Mud
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« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2020, 03:16:22 AM »

from what I was told from an associate there, as well as reading a few reputable sources is that the incidences of it there is already going down and that it is becoming less of a threat there as the days progress, and will follow a similar pattern in all the other affected areas..most likely across the ocean to this neck of the world it won't reach the levels it did there....


I have really bad COPD.  This aint a joke to me.


I do as they say and take care of myself.

Its hard enough for me to get around at times.....  My problem and i deal with it.

But Knowing someone healthy can have this and give it to me unwillingly sorta scares me.

You maybe strong n young n healthy and not worried. But some of us are on the other side. You can pick this thing up and give it to me.

Cant jus blow it off n say its nothing.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2020, 07:05:17 AM »

Techno's going all tinfoil hat again.

You better believe it.  My triple-thick foil is out for this one!  Cheesy

It's not about stopping the spread of the disease anyway. It's now about slowing the progression so it doesn't overwhelm the medical system. There was a very interesting graph yesterday that showed the bell curve of Covid-19 unchecked and the flattened curve of slowing the progression. Then they put in the line of how many folks the Canadian medical system could accommodate and showed how much we need to reduce the speed of transmission. The question being posed was are we doing enough to slow the progression before we overwhelm the system.

Update: ?Flattening the Curve? is a deadly delusion" - https://medium.com/@joschabach/flattening-the-curve-is-a-deadly-delusion-eea324fe9727 Interesting read saying that containment works and the curve is a lie.

There's tons of info and theories out there from all sorts of sources -- maintstream, indie, alt, and downright wacky -- I read them all (as should everyone) and distil what seems most logical and plausible into my own formulation.  If you read enough you can easily spot the propaganda.  If you believe the narrative that anything outside the narrative is "conspiracy", then you aren't getting the full picture.  Proof?  Is your outlet still saying "low risk"?  Would they close the entire provincial school and U system if it was "low risk"?  Pffft.  Is your outlet still telling you it's "not aerosol"?  Pfffft.  People who read outside sources have known it was aerosol since January, and the Americans just proved it:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.09.20033217v2

Anyhow, I fully agree slowing the progression is important.  However, the new narrative of "nearly everyone will get it, 70%, blah blah" is quite scary, and one I wholly disagree with.  If they really have decided to abandon contain then what they are saying is that all of us with over-70 friends & family, as well as people with iffy medical conditions, are being relegated to rolling the covid dice.  If their new base case is nearly everyone will get it, then they are saying the 70-79's will play russian roulette with a 12-round gun, and the 80+'s will play with a 7-round gun.  Who knows what the pre-existing-condition under-70's odds are, but it's probably no better than the 1 in 12 odds.  From what I've heard reported here in this forum, that's at least a couple of people I read posts from every day.  I may disagree with some people here some of the time, but come the season home opener (whenever that is) I want to see every last one of you healthy and in the stands!

No, I won't accept defeatism to the covid-odds-gods.  I think not getting it is an option and that's what I'm working towards with my family.  It may be the most difficult thing I ever do.  No one should give up and resign their fate to covid-roulette.  Never give up hope!  Stay safe everyone!
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« Reply #73 on: March 16, 2020, 06:50:58 PM »

The USA deserves to be chided. Leadership there ignored the problem for weeks, calling it a hoax and overblown, even opting not to get testing kits for COVID-19. All that despite experts saying exactly what happened would happen. A travel ban now solves nothing because the virus has already spread across the globe. The state of Washington has been dealing with the outbreak for a while, so what does a ban do now? And historically, travel bans don't accomplish anything. They're nothing more than knee-jerk reactions meant to obfuscate and then scare the public, fueling the fires of fear and xenophobia.

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  You were saying?  Still chiding the US?  Canada more pious, eh?  I guess Trudeau the Liberals and Canada are more xenophobic than Trump & the USA -- Trudeau just banned every non-US country and its dog!  I won't say I told you so... Should have done it 2 months ago.

Where are you getting your information?

Much better places than you are!  Rule of thumb, if it's on TV, it's bologna.

Stay safe everyone!!  Don't get your hopes up for any CFL games any time soon.
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Some people take this forum way too cavalierly.
blue_gold_84
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« Reply #74 on: March 17, 2020, 01:44:30 PM »

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  You were saying?  Still chiding the US?  Canada more pious, eh?  I guess Trudeau the Liberals and Canada are more xenophobic than Trump & the USA -- Trudeau just banned every non-US country and its dog!  I won't say I told you so... Should have done it 2 months ago.

Much better places than you are!  Rule of thumb, if it's on TV, it's bologna.

Stay safe everyone!!  Don't get your hopes up for any CFL games any time soon.


The only bologna being spewed is the garbage you're posting here, ignorantly defending another country's leadership. At no point did I say the Canadian government doesn't deserve its fair share of criticism or that Canada is more pious, so maybe learn to read. I said travel bans historically accomplish nothing, especially now that community transmission of the COVID-19 virus is taking place on this continent. At least the government here didn't opt out of purchasing test kits, deny there was a problem, spead misinformation, lie to the public, and say it would get better in short order. The US still deserves to be chided based on all of that, which has literally nothing to do with the Canadian government.

You thumbing your nosed with misguided arrogance at strangers on a forum over a serious and evolving global health issue is pretty pathetic. Grow up.
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#forthew
#gotthew

No drought about it.
Still can't fix stupid.
Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2020, 12:44:40 PM »

It's a tough situation. The reality is there isn't really a playbook here. Everyone is doing their best. The only mistake is trying to politicize the pandemic.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2020, 04:55:55 PM »

There are some really sickening individuals / companies that are profiting from this outbreak.

I've been reading / hearing about some people selling TP and Lysol hand wipes in large parking lots. One couple reports to have made $100K selling the Lysol hand wipes for 400%+ in the past couple of weeks.

One doctor from Washington State ( IIRC ) reports a shortage of medical masks that normally cost $0.58 each. They were offered 1M from a Mexican company @ $7.00 each and it may be necessary for their state to make that purchase.

It's beyond belief that there are people like this. More words escape me.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 05:00:37 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

No more excuses.
GCn19
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« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2020, 05:31:05 PM »

This situation can be catastrophic or it can be over relatively quickly. It really all depends on us. Are their alarmists out there. Absolutely. Is it wrong? I don't think so. If something has the potential to take a million lives on our continent, even if that's a worst case scenario, then why not hedge our bets and over react. In this case, an over reaction will save lives.

I'm not saying panic or get all goofy and have tanks mowing down people who dared to leave their home, just hit the pause button for a while until we can slow this down enough that most of us look back in a year and criticize the government for going overboard. lol

About the most absolute stupidest thing we can do right now is try to dismiss this as some kind of overblown media event. It might very well be that the media is over reacting but there are enough medical experts out there telling us that we should be very careful...so for god's sake people listen to them.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 05:35:12 PM by GCn19 » Logged

Some people take this forum way too seriously.
blue girl
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« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2020, 08:37:56 PM »

There are some really sickening individuals / companies that are profiting from this outbreak.

I've been reading / hearing about some people selling TP and Lysol hand wipes in large parking lots. One couple reports to have made $100K selling the Lysol hand wipes for 400%+ in the past couple of weeks.

One doctor from Washington State ( IIRC ) reports a shortage of medical masks that normally cost $0.58 each. They were offered 1M from a Mexican company @ $7.00 each and it may be necessary for their state to make that purchase.

It's beyond belief that there are people like this. More words escape me.
I totally agree that these people are the lowest of the low. I hope that nobody buys their products and when this is over they're left with two years worth of toilet paper and sanitizer.
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dd
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« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2020, 12:48:11 PM »

The virus has brought out the best and worst in people. On one hand you have politicians doing their best to make financial programs available to help people and families in a bind and on the other you have the street rats out there claiming it?s ?just business ? and financially capitalizing on the situation by gouging people. Pathetic really and one can only hope that in their hour of need they get exactly what?s coming to them. What comes around goes around.
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