Blue Bombers Forum
July 03, 2020, 04:41:28 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2  All
  Print  
Author Topic: 7 Starting NATs - flexibility?  (Read 889 times)
TecnoGenius
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4332


« on: March 04, 2020, 09:01:55 PM »

I've been wondering... So you must start 7 NATs (ignore all the FAKENAT stuff for now; pretend it's 2019) and maintain 7 NATs on the field, combined across O and D.  For instance, WPG in '19 chose to put 6 on O and 1 on D for (nearly?) every game.

My question is: can you vary that O and D NAT count choice during a game?  If so, has anyone ever seen a team do it?

For instance, if we had Demski get hurt on 2nd down and we punt it away, could we then put Hecht in at FS on the next non-ST play?  (Ignore for the moment we'd never do that because we have good backup NAT WRs; pretend we don't.)  That would make us 5 NATs O, 2 D.

Or, say Kongbo/Thomas got hurt and we took out Bailey for Petermann, changing to 7 O, 0 D.

If this is allowed, what happens if it's 1st down when your O player gets injured, and you decide to put the extra NAT on D, but it's still O on the field and O is now playing -1 on NATs.  Can you finish the series "off ratio", or would they enforce that you maintain that same NAT count on O for the rest of that series?  Seems unfair if you could switch the O/D ratio mid-series and gain an extra IMP that way.
Logged

Never go full Rider!
Sir Blue and Gold
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 21905



« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2020, 09:03:44 PM »

It's a good question. I believe you'd have to replace the injured national with another national for that series (or Vet, this year) and then next offensive possession you could make the switch to 7-0. ...I think but am not totally sure.
Logged
booch
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2864


« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2020, 09:08:19 PM »

It's a good question. I believe you'd have to replace the injured national with another national for that series (or Vet, this year) and then next offensive possession you could make the switch to 7-0. ...I think but am not totally sure.

You declare who the starters are on offence, and defense then have to maintain that throughout the game...if you have like us 6 declared on offence....and the 1 on defense...then thats how you have to roll all game
Logged
booch
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2864


« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2020, 09:09:28 PM »

You're over complicating the question.

It's not a question about the Canadian's it's a question about the imports. You can rotate Canadians starting anywhere on the roster.

The DI's have to replace another import. As long as that is " addressed " about when they are on the field then the Canadians starting are addressed.

IE: Yes you could take out Bailey and start Petermann in the scenario that Kongbo / Thomas were injured.

Keeping in mind Kongbo is no longer on the team.

The fake national's are already supposed to be the extra 3 starters. So that just clouds the issue IMO and doesn't offer an alternative to an injured Canadian.



Nope...see my previous post....unless it was changed but pretty sure it hasn't
Logged
Sir Blue and Gold
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 21905



« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2020, 09:14:37 PM »

You declare who the starters are on offence, and defense then have to maintain that throughout the game...if you have like us 6 declared on offence....and the 1 on defense...then thats how you have to roll all game

Gotcha. Thanks for that!
Logged
TecnoGenius
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4332


« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2020, 09:19:15 PM »

Good point guys, I had forgotten about the DI can only replace an IMP starter aspect.  It helps like booch & BinBC said, to view it in terms of starters and DIs.  It does indeed appear to be set in stone in terms of ball side, but not in terms of position within each side.

So if injuries pile up and you run out of NAT depth on one side of the ball you're screwed?  What if you literally can't field the number of NATs you need on that side?  Let's say Demski, Woli go down.  Then Petermann, Augustine go down.  That leaves only NAT Miller who can play O?  So do you then put a 80-99 number jersey on hoggie Eli and send him wide out??  Or can you steal a nimble NAT from D at put him on O?

Yes, that's a ridiculous scenario, but some teams only start 1 NAT WR and have 1 depth, I think (plus 1-2 NAT TEs/FBs on ST).  Has that ever happened where a team gets desperate for NAT depth after a rash of injuries on one side of the ball?

Has a team ever fielded only 11 men on a side due to NAT injuries?

I guess I know understand why our NAT ST units always seem to have a lot of guys who seem superfluous at their position.  Like all those FBs and LBs.  They can save your bacon if it hits the fan.
Logged

Never go full Rider!
TecnoGenius
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4332


« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2020, 09:23:58 PM »

I guess we finally found a real upside to the FAKENAT changes... between real NATs, STers and FAKENATs, it would seem a team can never run out of players to keep the ratio intact on each side of the ball.

But I still wonder if a team has ever run out on one side of the ball in all of CFL history.  I want to hear stories about fielding a player completely outside of their skillset under horrible conditions!
Logged

Never go full Rider!
booch
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2864


« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2020, 09:24:30 PM »

Good point guys, I had forgotten about the DI can only replace an IMP starter aspect.  It helps like booch & BinBC said, to view it in terms of starters and DIs.  It does indeed appear to be set in stone in terms of ball side, but not in terms of position within each side.

So if injuries pile up and you run out of NAT depth on one side of the ball you're screwed?  What if you literally can't field the number of NATs you need on that side?  Let's say Demski, Woli go down.  Then Petermann, Augustine go down.  That leaves only NAT Miller who can play O?  So do you then put a 80-99 number jersey on hoggie Eli and send him wide out??  Or can you steal a nimble NAT from D at put him on O?

Yes, that's a ridiculous scenario, but some teams only start 1 NAT WR and have 1 depth, I think (plus 1-2 NAT TEs/FBs on ST).  Has that ever happened where a team gets desperate for NAT depth after a rash of injuries on one side of the ball?

Has a team ever fielded only 11 men on a side due to NAT injuries?

I guess I know understand why our NAT ST units always seem to have a lot of guys who seem superfluous at their position.  Like all those FBs and LBs.  They can save your bacon if it hits the fan.


Yup thats what you do...hahaha....I've never seen..nor heard of that happening though.

In terms of the DI tho...If you start more than the required 7 Nationals you declare pre-game who the 7 true " Starters" and maintain that, but in this instance I believe the DI can come in for a National as long as it maintains the 7 declared pre-game in terms of amount on each side of the ball...thats the one benefit of starting 8 or more if yoyu can..you have more rotation options with your imports
Logged
Sir Blue and Gold
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 21905



« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2020, 09:25:17 PM »

It's happened before. Chris Jones and the Riders got fined for playing with less than 7 nationals one game when the injury bug knocked a bunch of guys out. He cited the rash of injuries as the cause.
Logged
the paw
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3956


« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2020, 09:30:33 PM »

Jake Thomas used to flip over to oline if there was a rash of injuries.  So you can move a player from D to O, but if Jake was a d starter and you did that, you would have to use a NAT to replace him on the d-line.
Logged

grab grass 'n growl
TecnoGenius
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4332


« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2020, 09:34:04 PM »

It's happened before. Chris Jones and the Riders got fined for playing with less than 7 nationals one game when the injury bug knocked a bunch of guys out. He cited the rash of injuries as the cause.

Wow... do you remember who they were playing?  Did he win?  It would seem a fine (especially if it's not against the SMS) is horribly inadequate to punish a team gaining an IMP advantage this way.

I don't recall TSN or the refs mentioning anything during any game of C.Jone's SSK era.  So they must have figured it out post-game.  If I was the opposing HC I'd be chirping a the refs as soon as I noticed.

There are a couple of games each year where the TSN guys start sounding nervous regarding a rash of injuries and who they are going to put in, and I never really thought much about it, but I bet those times were when it was NATs dropping like flies.  Usually OL.  I'll know better to pay attention next time!

Jake Thomas used to flip over to oline if there was a rash of injuries.  So you can move a player from D to O, but if Jake was a d starter and you did that, you would have to use a NAT to replace him on the d-line.

I was just going to say that... I recall a couple of games of various teams switching DTs to OL.

I'm going to pay more attention to this in the future.  I'll start keeping the GDDC up in front of me while I'm watching every game, as I can't always keep all the obscure NATs on non-WPG teams straight all season.
Logged

Never go full Rider!
booch
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2864


« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2020, 09:43:12 PM »

Wow... do you remember who they were playing?  Did he win?  It would seem a fine (especially if it's not against the SMS) is horribly inadequate to punish a team gaining an IMP advantage this way.

I don't recall TSN or the refs mentioning anything during any game of C.Jone's SSK era.  So they must have figured it out post-game.  If I was the opposing HC I'd be chirping a the refs as soon as I noticed.

There are a couple of games each year where the TSN guys start sounding nervous regarding a rash of injuries and who they are going to put in, and I never really thought much about it, but I bet those times were when it was NATs dropping like flies.  Usually OL.  I'll know better to pay attention next time!

I was just going to say that... I recall a couple of games of various teams switching DTs to OL.

I'm going to pay more attention to this in the future.  I'll start keeping the GDDC up in front of me while I'm watching every game, as I can't always keep all the obscure NATs on non-WPG teams straight all season.


Guys can play on both sides of the ball...thats never been an issue, Jake used to be the "7th" o-lineman when we used to only dress 6

As long as it meets ratio it's fine...If we so wanted we could bring Willie in on Jumbo sets as a TE as long as he replaced an import...If I remember correctly we used to do that with Vega and he actually caught a TD in the east final one year.....or we could have say Harris or Woli go play safety ...or even Lucky at safety and that wouldnt affect the ratio
Logged
gobombersgo
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3477



« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2020, 09:19:24 AM »

Wow... do you remember who they were playing?  Did he win?  It would seem a fine (especially if it's not against the SMS) is horribly inadequate to punish a team gaining an IMP advantage this way.

I don't recall TSN or the refs mentioning anything during any game of C.Jone's SSK era.  So they must have figured it out post-game.  If I was the opposing HC I'd be chirping a the refs as soon as I noticed.

There are a couple of games each year where the TSN guys start sounding nervous regarding a rash of injuries and who they are going to put in, and I never really thought much about it, but I bet those times were when it was NATs dropping like flies.  Usually OL.  I'll know better to pay attention next time!

I was just going to say that... I recall a couple of games of various teams switching DTs to OL.

I'm going to pay more attention to this in the future.  I'll start keeping the GDDC up in front of me while I'm watching every game, as I can't always keep all the obscure NATs on non-WPG teams straight all season.

I recall O'Shea mentioning the Rider's game on his Coach's Show. I believe he said the Rider's shud have been penalized for being short Nationals. They got lucky with only paying a fine. The officials screwed up by not catching it in game.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 11:26:41 AM by gobombersgo » Logged

Stats Junkie
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1428


Unofficial Blue Bombers Historian


« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2020, 05:01:37 PM »

The ratio must be maintained throughout the game with one exception.

Mike O'Shea touched on the exception during his call in show a couple of years back.

A team can change the ratio mid-game but one of the players must be declared ineligible to return to the game.

As mentioned, the Blue Bombers typically went with a ratio of 6 O and 1 D in 2019. If due to injury the Bombers needed to switch the ratio to 5 O and 2 D they could do so by notifying the onfield officials. One of the O starters would be declared out of the game.
Logged

@Stats_Junkie
theaardvark
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 29366



« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2020, 05:33:34 PM »

The ratio must be maintained throughout the game with one exception.

Mike O'Shea touched on the exception during his call in show a couple of years back.

A team can change the ratio mid-game but one of the players must be declared ineligible to return to the game.

As mentioned, the Blue Bombers typically went with a ratio of 6 O and 1 D in 2019. If due to injury the Bombers needed to switch the ratio to 5 O and 2 D they could do so by notifying the onfield officials. One of the O starters would be declared out of the game.

I'm confused... declared out of the game?  I guess that if you need to change ratio due to injury, the O player being "declared out fo the game" would have already happened, is that what you mean?  And, are there declared "starters"?  I thought that any NAT player can be one of the on field ratio filling players at any time,

I'm guessing that any ratio change would need to be made preemptively, by that I mean if you are moving from 6o-1d to 5o-2d, you would have to play a series with 2d before you would be eligible to play a series with 5o...
Logged

Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.
Pages: [1] 2  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!