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Author Topic: So Zach it is...according to Dunk  (Read 6802 times)
theaardvark
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« Reply #240 on: January 24, 2020, 09:41:20 PM »

So, Collaros is more likely in danger of PCS, rather than CTE...  just so we have our brain trauma issues straight.
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In Motion
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« Reply #241 on: January 24, 2020, 09:48:39 PM »

Zach is the more mobile QB and that's why the Bombers are pursuing him harder in my opinion.
As for the risk due to his past with concussions, that's for his wife and him to decide. I know they
don't want him behind a porous O line like the Argos have, and they feel Winnipeg is a good fit
for the rest of his playing career. Money of course is a factor as well.

Nichols is hurt and mad the Bombers are not pursuing him as hard, and I get that, but the club has to look
at who is more likely to lead the team to another Cup.

My opinion re. the concussions and injuries is that any QB is just one big hit away from a career-ending injury.
That's the danger of playing football. I appreciate the risks the players take to play football for our enjoyment
and feel they should be well looked after by the league if playing in the CFL causes them serious long-term harm.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 05:45:11 PM by ModAdmin » Logged
Sec227
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« Reply #242 on: January 24, 2020, 09:54:53 PM »

Zach is the more mobile QB and that's why the Bombers are pursuing him harder in my opinion.
As for the risk due to his past with concussions, that's for his wife and him to decide. I know they
don't want him behind a porous O line like the Argos have, and they feel Winnipeg is a good fit
for the rest of his playing career. Money of course is a factor as well.

Nichols is hurt and mad the Bombers are not pursuing him as hard, and I get that, but the club has to look
at who is more likely to lead the team to another Cup.

My opinion re. the concussions and injuries is that any QB is just one big hit away from a career-ending injury.
That's the danger of playing football. I appreciate the risks the players take to play football for our enjoyment
and feel they should be well looked after by the league if playing in the CFL causes them serious long-term harm.

Mad he's not being pursued? He's a free agent in a few weeks. Lots of others teams can "pursue" him and vice versa. The business side of sports sure gets tricky and ugly.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 05:45:29 PM by ModAdmin » Logged
Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #243 on: January 24, 2020, 09:56:45 PM »

Zach is the more mobile QB and that's why the Bombers are pursuing him harder in my opinion.
As for the risk due to his past with concussions, that's for his wife and him to decide. I know they
don't want him behind a porous O line like the Argos have, and they feel Winnipeg is a good fit
for the rest of his playing career. Money of course is a factor as well.

Nichols is hurt and mad the Bombers are not pursuing him as hard, and I get that, but the club has to look
at who is more likely to lead the team to another Cup.

My opinion re. the concussions and injuries is that any QB is just one big hit away from a career-ending injury.
That's the danger of playing football. I appreciate the risks the players take to play football for our enjoyment
and feel they should be well looked after by the league if playing in the CFL causes them serious long-term harm.

Yah that'd be nice but it's already been established that long-term care doesn't exist.  Player is more or less on his own.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 05:46:11 PM by ModAdmin » Logged
bomb squad
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« Reply #244 on: January 25, 2020, 09:19:06 AM »

There is no question that ZC can keep more plays alive. However, the stats don't back up your claim that ZC was more aggressive or threw a better deep ball in 2019. MN averaged more pass attempts per game over 25 yards, completed them at a better %, had more explosion plays per game (30+yard gains) than ZC in his time with the Bombers. Of course, the stats don't show how many great big plays ZC made by extending the play but it is a fallacy to suggest that Nichols didn't and couldn't throw a long ball. Both guys are pretty much equally capable of doing so and pretty much equally as likely to do so. Where ZC shines is his ability to make something out of nothing.

All 3 of those jumped out at me as being incorrect. As in, obviously incorrect. In the playoff games, Collaros was firing deep balls and completing them like we haven't seen in a long time in Bomber land. Especially the Ssk game. Collaros didn't light it up total pass yards wise, but he sure had the big play going.

No way can that be correct. Are you sure about your info?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 09:22:23 AM by bomb squad » Logged
bigbuff33
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« Reply #245 on: January 25, 2020, 12:46:50 PM »

Bombers have resigned our offensive line...they know how important it is to protect the QB and make holes for AH
I personally am leaning towards Collaros...if he's smart he looks at our o-line and says...they give me the best chance to stay healthy...
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #246 on: January 25, 2020, 02:16:32 PM »

It seems you are not understanding what this discussion is about. We are trying to determine who ought to be the starter based on injury proneness and skill set.

You seem to be turning this into a moral argument and patronizing me with facts about CTE and head trauma in your first post I quoted. I am not arguing that this is potentially more damaging than muscoskelatal injuries...because that's not what we are arguing about.

In your second post, you show with your own calculations that both players are about equally prone to injuries based on their history.

So, if these two items are a wash, what is your argument that Zach is a bigger risk again? Because if he gets a concussion, he's done? Well, if Nichols gets another major shoulder/ankle/leg whatever injury, he's probably also done. There's already talk that he may not get to full strength following his most recent injury.

Not at all. Moral issue aside. IMO Collaros is more likely to be injured IMO due to the nature of his injuries. The injury histories are not a wash.  Period end of statement.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 02:20:43 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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theaardvark
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« Reply #247 on: January 25, 2020, 02:25:08 PM »

Not at all. Moral issue aside. IMO Collaros is more likely to be injured. The injury histories are not a wash.  Period end of statement.

Concussion issues are always a concern, and once you are concussed, you tend to be more likely to again.

I am pretty sure Nichols has been concussed in the past as well. 

Nichols, on the other hand, is coming off surgery for an injury that was sustained on a play that was pretty m'eh.  As we age, we tend to get injured more easily, and once you've shown to be easily injured, you are more likely to be injured again.  And remember, Nichols came to camp last year lighter, faster, stronger... and yet suffered a year ending injury on a play with no penalty.

Collaros might have a larger concussion liability, and Nichols a larger physical injury liability.  Both are not getting younger.

I'll take the guy that got us a cup, and wrap him in bubblewrap. 
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BigBomberFan
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« Reply #248 on: January 25, 2020, 02:38:48 PM »

With Nichols' injury, obviously it is questionable whether he can regain his form. One would assume that Walters and O'Shea would be consulting with the doctors on this one. And for anyone who remembers that horrific ankle twisting injury that he had in Edmonton, he does have a history of major injuries. Unfortunate, but true.

Collaros has a history of injuries as well, but the major problem there was that he got destroyed on a daily basis in Hamilton by getting sacked too many times, and that even in Saskatchewan, maybe he had never fully recovered yet and was still aggravating the CTE and other injuries that he sustained in Hamilton. My educated guess right now is that the extended time that he had to heal up over the course of 2019 by not playing had maybe finally given him some much needed rest to recover. Nobody is completely sure of that, but behind our O-line that had got him lots of protection, he finally was not playing scared football anymore.

Collaros makes the most sense. He's won us a championship, and while his numbers look similar to what Nichols would have put up, the difference between him and Nichols differs in the under pressure moments: he looks much more composed and makes better decisions during those times. Playing "coulda woulda shoulda", Matt could and should won us the Cup, but I do doubt whether he actually would have. I'll always love Matt for returning respectability and competitiveness back to our franchise, but Collaros makes the most sense for us going forward.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #249 on: January 25, 2020, 05:01:28 PM »

Nichols missed the entire 2013. Then he had a knee injury in TC in 2018 missing the 1st 3 games. In 2019 he missed the last nine games with a shoulder injury. It seems that injury could be a permanent physical issue.

Like most players he's been nicked and knocked out of parts of some games. Some were concussion protocol which may or may not have been concussions but erring on the side of player safety.

So he's missed 3 entire games during 2014-2018 ( 5 seasons ) prior to this year with a serious injury.

I'm not sure that qualifies as a history of serious injury as some want to paint. In the some 5 seasons Collaros missed games every season but 1 for a total of 24 games.

I don't remember what all of those injuries were but which indicates a player that had more injuries in that time frame?

Make whatever argument you want that Collaros might be a more talented player.

I disagree that Nichols has a history of more major injuries in the past. His current injury to his shoulder could be the beginning of the end. Some QB's never regain their form.

We'll be watching Nichols, Fajardo and BLM in 2020 to see how each is impacted by throwing arm issues in 2019.
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GCn19
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« Reply #250 on: January 25, 2020, 05:03:52 PM »

All 3 of those jumped out at me as being incorrect. As in, obviously incorrect. In the playoff games, Collaros was firing deep balls and completing them like we haven't seen in a long time in Bomber land. Especially the Ssk game. Collaros didn't light it up total pass yards wise, but he sure had the big play going.

No way can that be correct. Are you sure about your info?

Yep came straight from CFLdb. It strikes you as incorrect because thats human nature.
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GCn19
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« Reply #251 on: January 25, 2020, 05:06:58 PM »

I think most of us would agree that Collaros is probably a little bit more of an injury risk than Nichols. But I think we're also probably in agreement that the risk is high with either player. I have my doubts that either will make it through the season unscathed. I have just concluded that when healthy, Collaros is better than Nichols. Not by a lot, but by enough that it matters. I wonder if that's what the Bombers concluded as well, because it appears we're trying for Collaros first.

I think that for whatever reason that ZC has higher intangibles than MN.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #252 on: January 25, 2020, 05:42:47 PM »

With Nichols' injury, obviously it is questionable whether he can regain his form. One would assume that Walters and O'Shea would be consulting with the doctors on this one. And for anyone who remembers that horrific ankle twisting injury that he had in Edmonton, he does have a history of major injuries. Unfortunate, but true.

Collaros has a history of injuries as well, but the major problem there was that he got destroyed on a daily basis in Hamilton by getting sacked too many times, and that even in Saskatchewan, maybe he had never fully recovered yet and was still aggravating the CTE and other injuries that he sustained in Hamilton. My educated guess right now is that the extended time that he had to heal up over the course of 2019 by not playing had maybe finally given him some much needed rest to recover. Nobody is completely sure of that, but behind our O-line that had got him lots of protection, he finally was not playing scared football anymore.

Collaros makes the most sense. He's won us a championship, and while his numbers look similar to what Nichols would have put up, the difference between him and Nichols differs in the under pressure moments: he looks much more composed and makes better decisions during those times. Playing "coulda woulda shoulda", Matt could and should won us the Cup, but I do doubt whether he actually would have. I'll always love Matt for returning respectability and competitiveness back to our franchise, but Collaros makes the most sense for us going forward.

Couple of points.

Despite my overwhelming hatred for all shades of green, I must admit Sask. did a decent job of protecting Zach during the 2018 season, this can mostly be attributed to McCadoo's sorry attempt to duplicate LaPo's offence with a quick short passing attack, sans a great release weapon like Harris.  It wasn't until game 20 with Sask. attempting to secure a home playoff spot against BC that Odell Willis finally nailed Collaros with an illegal helmet to helmet hit that put him out for the remainder of the season.

https://www.cfl.ca/games/2541/bc-lions-vs-saskatchewan-roughriders/?_ga=2.99639838.1603467156.1579792973-96752938.1529593205

The 2018 season numbers do not lie.

Collaros
TEAM   GP   COMP   ATT   YDS    TD   INT   AVG
SSK      14   234     382   2999      9   13   7.9

Nichols
TEAM   GP   COMP   ATT   YDS    TD   INT   AVG
WPG      15   254    392   3146    18   13   8.0

Despite having a superior group of receivers Zach was unable to exploit them fully because he was getting rid of the ball very quickly, I believe this was designed to protect him from excess hits to the noggin.  Despite having better mobility than Nichols, Collaros only ran the ball 24/103 in 2018, again limited to protect him from extra hits.

Second point, there is no tangible "healing up" from concussions, the brain does not repair itself, it stabilizes but the deterioration is permanent.  If Nichols twists his knee he may be knocked out for a game or two but can often come back wearing a brace to better protect it, unfortunately this is not an option for a brain injury.

Third point, this notion that Nichols loses composure and throws the ball out of bounds in a state of panic is false, he does it with the conscious objective of preserving ball security and extending drives into scoring territory, as he has stated numerous times.  He is super methodical in his process,  he does not often risk possession by forcing a throw with a low probability of success and the potential of being intercepted.  This is actually an attribute as it shows he has total awareness of the game situation and ball management skills he possesses as his win/loss record attests.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 05:46:45 PM by Throw Long Bannatyne » Logged
blueraid
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« Reply #253 on: January 25, 2020, 06:19:45 PM »

I'm getting this niggling feeling that Streveler will be like Willie...on his way back for another Cup run....The apparent signing of both have seemed to have dried up at this juncture...Could it be that the NFL think that Chris needs more seasoning and in Willie's case , his age and lack of pr availability, are a deal breaker...Huh...Unless we hear something pretty soon ...and after all of the elapsed time for a team down there, to  make a move on either of them, could it be that they on their way back to have a talk with Walters....hmmmmmm ..I certainly am okay with a Streveler/Collaros duo again in 2020...chance at another good Cup run definitely on the table if that's the case
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 06:22:19 PM by blueraid » Logged
blue girl
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« Reply #254 on: January 25, 2020, 07:51:50 PM »

Nichols injury was actually a fluke in that he sustained it more because of the way he landed. Unfortunately it was to his shoulder which can be career ending for a QB. I do worry that Collaros is one head injury away from a career ending injury but it's his decision if he wants to take that chance. Yes he has a good OL here but it's pretty much the same OL that Nichols had. My point is that it doesn't matter how good the OL is all it takes is one hit. As for Collaros winning The Grey Cup, yes he's the QB of record but I would rank the play of the defence and Andrew Harris ahead of what Collaros did.
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