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Author Topic: New 2 QB rule clarification?  (Read 4073 times)
TecnoGenius
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« Reply #165 on: February 11, 2020, 06:27:46 AM »

If McGuire is your #3 and you have a QB2, you have to lose a DI.  If you call him QB3, he is limited to what a QB can do...   but if you call him a FB, he has no limitations.  Either way he takes a DI spot, so why call him a QB?

Yes, I meant McGuire as #3.  (Assume some other legit #1b as our #2.)

Well, if you don't call him a QB, and you call him a FB, then there must be a "real" QB on the field for all O snaps with that "FB", right?  Or are you saying they'd allow a team to have an O snap with just a FB behind center and no QB in sight?

If that's what you're saying, it doesn't gain you anything when your #1 and #2 get injured, no?  Isn't that the whole point of this exercise?

If that's the case, the only reason you'd want your QB as a FB is for trick plays.

I'm not sure we're even having the same conversation anymore?  My whole thing is to find a way to still dress a #3 QB who can sub in when #1 and #2 are injured.  We used to be discussing that with your NAT idea and my GLOB idea under the newly minted roster rules.  I'm not sure what the "FB" idea buys you at all now that it didn't buy you before.  Couldn't you have put in a QB-cum-FB back in 2018 without a problem?  So what is it exactly that you see has changed under the new rules that makes this more attractive?
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #166 on: February 11, 2020, 02:02:06 PM »

Thanks!  That's dated May 2019... is that because they had it all done they just had to take a year to finally get it ratified?  Or is there a newer CBA out there?

Quote
The current Collective Bargaining Agreement between the CFL and CFLPA was ratified May 22, 2019. Initial media reports listed highlights of the deal from undisclosed sources, but the full text of the agreement was released in January 2020. The agreement lasts three years through the 2021 season, expiring the day before the 2022 training camp starts.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #167 on: February 11, 2020, 02:09:56 PM »

Yes, I meant McGuire as #3.  (Assume some other legit #1b as our #2.)

Well, if you don't call him a QB, and you call him a FB, then there must be a "real" QB on the field for all O snaps with that "FB", right?  Or are you saying they'd allow a team to have an O snap with just a FB behind center and no QB in sight?

If that's what you're saying, it doesn't gain you anything when your #1 and #2 get injured, no?  Isn't that the whole point of this exercise?

If that's the case, the only reason you'd want your QB as a FB is for trick plays.

I'm not sure we're even having the same conversation anymore?  My whole thing is to find a way to still dress a #3 QB who can sub in when #1 and #2 are injured.  We used to be discussing that with your NAT idea and my GLOB idea under the newly minted roster rules.  I'm not sure what the "FB" idea buys you at all now that it didn't buy you before.  Couldn't you have put in a QB-cum-FB back in 2018 without a problem?  So what is it exactly that you see has changed under the new rules that makes this more attractive?


If QB1 and QB2 are injured and there is no QB3 on the roster, you sub in a position player, regardless.  If he happens to be an actual QB that you are calling a FB, so be it.

On the other hand, if you want 2 QBs in the backfield for any reason, you can put QB3 that is called FB in the game with QB1 or QB2... you can't if you actually designate him as QB3...

The difference is, before there was a roster spot at QB3 that you could dress or not dress, and it wouldn't cost you either a DI or NAT backup spot if you dressed one.  Now, if you want to dress a designated QB3 (allowed), you have to give up dressing a DI / Nat backup player.  So, before, you gained a player on the sidelines by dressing 3 QB's, but accepted that third QB would have limitations.  Now, you don't gain anything by designating him as a QB3, and he had limitations.  See the difference?
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #168 on: February 12, 2020, 06:29:19 AM »

If QB1 and QB2 are injured and there is no QB3 on the roster, you sub in a position player, regardless.  If he happens to be an actual QB that you are calling a FB, so be it.

Ok, I'm starting to get your point.  However, by the rulebook (forget the CBA), you have to have 1 and only 1 QB on the O field at all times.  So if you designate your #3 as FB, how are you satisfying this rule?  Does the rule suddenly disappear just because your #1 and #2 were injured and you didn't roster a #3?  And we all know this rule is a real thing because every single trick play where a non-QB lines up in the shotgun or whatever, they have the real QB lined up as WR or something (as opposed to being off the field completely and replaced with a real, useful, WR.)

I think that aspect has not been explored because I can't recall in the CFL a game where all QBs went down and some non-QB came in under C.

Are you absolutely positive if you exhaust your QB pool that you'd be allowed to put someone not listed under the QB position of the GDDC in at QB?  Common sense would say it needs to be allowed (or what, does the game stop?), but by the letter of the rulebook, it might be forbidden.  I'll have to go check the book again...

That would be so funny if my "worst case" scenario where a team's #1 and #2 go down and there's no #3 that they bring in a WR to be QB is actually not what will happen: the hilarity will be if no player can, by rule, be the new QB and the game has to stop!
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theaardvark
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« Reply #169 on: February 12, 2020, 12:11:08 PM »

The number of QB's on the field is a maximum, not a minimum.  SSK would bring in Marshall at QB, and he wasn't rostered as a QB... 
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #170 on: February 13, 2020, 11:18:35 PM »

The number of QB's on the field is a maximum, not a minimum.  SSK would bring in Marshall at QB, and he wasn't rostered as a QB... 

I'm nearly positive it's both!  If there was no minimum, then how come teams always leave the QB in at WR or TE or wherever when they do the trick direct-snap plays?  If it was me, if you knew 100% for sure you'd never throw to your QB on that play, and there was no minimum, I'd put in another real (NAT) WR or TE.  But without exception I've never seen those plays take the real QB off the field.

Ah... rulebook time...
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #171 on: February 14, 2020, 02:32:57 PM »

There are 2 designated QB's on the roster. Any 3rd QB wouldn't be designated as a QB. That doesn't mean they can't line up as a QB or that they can't throw the ball. If there's no 3rd QB on the roster, teams will teach another player some plays at QB and use them in case of disaster.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #172 on: February 14, 2020, 02:48:09 PM »

I'm nearly positive it's both!  If there was no minimum, then how come teams always leave the QB in at WR or TE or wherever when they do the trick direct-snap plays?  If it was me, if you knew 100% for sure you'd never throw to your QB on that play, and there was no minimum, I'd put in another real (NAT) WR or TE.  But without exception I've never seen those plays take the real QB off the field.

Ah... rulebook time...

If all your QBs get injured, what happens?  You forfeit for not having a designated QB on the field?  The designation is a roster thing, there are "free" spots for QB's on the roster outside the position players / backups.  Teams that dressed 2 QB's last year did not get an extra DI, or even an extra NAT.  They played one body short. 

But that "free" roster spot came with provision that that "free" player couldn't play on the same play with another designated QB.  So, only 1 of the three QB "free spots" could play at a time.   Otherwise, you could have rostered an extra Int WR or RB or OT as a "QB" and played them anytime you wanted. 
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the paw
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« Reply #173 on: February 14, 2020, 02:57:41 PM »

I'm nearly positive it's both!  If there was no minimum, then how come teams always leave the QB in at WR or TE or wherever when they do the trick direct-snap plays?  If it was me, if you knew 100% for sure you'd never throw to your QB on that play, and there was no minimum, I'd put in another real (NAT) WR or TE.  But without exception I've never seen those plays take the real QB off the field.

Ah... rulebook time...

from the 2019 rule book:

Quote
Article 4 ? Designated Quarterback
Prior to the game, a team is required to designate three players who shall be permitted to alternate for each other during the game at the Quarterback position exclusively. Not more than one such player may be in the game at any time and none of the three can enter the game as a member of Team B.

PENALTY: L25 PLS DR or L25 PBD or option.

NOTE: For the purposes of this Article 4, the duties of the Quarterback position may include punting, place kicking and kicking off. If a team designates three Quarterbacks for a game, the player designated as the third Quarterback shall not be eligible for kicking duties.

NOTE: A team is required to have one designated quarterback or kicker on the field for each of its offensive plays.

For 2020, they are likely to simply amend this by changing it to read two instead of 3.  This means that you still have to have a designated QB or kicker on the field for each offensive play.   If you have a player like Bennett dressed as a DI, he could come on and take a direct snap so long as either one of the other 2 QBs is on the field, or Medlock is out there as part of a fake field goal or punt. 
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #174 on: February 14, 2020, 07:39:01 PM »

from the 2019 rule book:

For 2020, they are likely to simply amend this by changing it to read two instead of 3.  This means that you still have to have a designated QB or kicker on the field for each offensive play.   If you have a player like Bennett dressed as a DI, he could come on and take a direct snap so long as either one of the other 2 QBs is on the field, or Medlock is out there as part of a fake field goal or punt. 
I can't image that they will just change the 3 to a 2. What would they do if QB1 & QB2 get hurt in the same game and the team isn't carrying a QB3?
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the paw
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« Reply #175 on: February 14, 2020, 08:11:51 PM »

I can't image that they will just change the 3 to a 2. What would they do if QB1 & QB2 get hurt in the same game and the team isn't carrying a QB3?

Is this a serious question?  They would do the same thing as they would have if three qb's got hurt in 2019... You send in Darvin Adams.

Occam's Razor man....
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theaardvark
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« Reply #176 on: February 14, 2020, 08:16:06 PM »

Is this a serious question?  They would do the same thing as they would have if three qb's got hurt in 2019... You send in Darvin Adams.

Occam's Razor man....

He's saying that if the rule says you have to have a designated QB or kicker on the field every offensie down.. or face a 25yd penalty...

So teams dressing only 2 QB's were taking an awful chance last year, because if both QB got injured, you were looking at perpetual 25yd penalties.. or playing your punter every O down.  Which seems ridiculous
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the paw
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« Reply #177 on: February 14, 2020, 10:45:24 PM »

He's saying that if the rule says you have to have a designated QB or kicker on the field every offensie down.. or face a 25yd penalty...

So teams dressing only 2 QB's were taking an awful chance last year, because if both QB got injured, you were looking at perpetual 25yd penalties.. or playing your punter every O down.  Which seems ridiculous

Sometimes you have to use common sense when reading rules.  Whether the rules state 3 designated QBs or 2, if all of your QBs get hurt, they aren't going to give 25 yard penalties for not having one on the field. 
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #178 on: February 15, 2020, 01:57:32 PM »

Sometimes you have to use common sense when reading rules.  Whether the rules state 3 designated QBs or 2, if all of your QBs get hurt, they aren't going to give 25 yard penalties for not having one on the field. 
Your own post quotes the 2019 rule which states: NOTE: A team is required to have one designated quarterback or kicker on the field for each of its offensive plays. and you're saying they will likely to just change that to 2. That means putting your kicker on the field if you lose 2 QB's to avoid a penalty. I don't see them doing that. I expect the entire NOTE will be eliminated for 2020 so you can play without a designated QB on each offensive play.
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the paw
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« Reply #179 on: February 15, 2020, 03:19:44 PM »

Your own post quotes the 2019 rule which states: NOTE: A team is required to have one designated quarterback or kicker on the field for each of its offensive plays. and you're saying they will likely to just change that to 2. That means putting your kicker on the field if you lose 2 QB's to avoid a penalty. I don't see them doing that. I expect the entire NOTE will be eliminated for 2020 so you can play without a designated QB on each offensive play.

I don't think they will get rid of the note, I think they want to keep the QB designation and requirement.

I suppose if they are revising the rule for the pedantic and obtuse reader, they might say "required to have a designated QB or kicker on all offensive plays, unless they are all injured.". Rules and statutes attempt to be comprehensive, but usually rely on the use of common sense to determine the application in situations that are rare or extremely unlikely.  To be 100 % exhaustive would make the rules unreadable.
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