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Author Topic: New 2 QB rule clarification?  (Read 9351 times)
theaardvark
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« Reply #150 on: February 07, 2020, 07:24:18 PM »

We don't have a NAT QB. If we want a NAT FB, then we hire one. There is no advantage to pretending that a QB is a FB. If we want someone else to throw the ball, Darvin Adams comes to mind.

The upside of having a NAT QB dressed as a "FB" is he can be on the field on any play... no downside.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #151 on: February 07, 2020, 09:44:12 PM »

The upside of having a NAT QB dressed as a "FB" is he can be on the field on any play... no downside.
No downside? How 'bout he isn't a FB?
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« Reply #152 on: February 08, 2020, 01:33:24 AM »

No downside? How 'bout he isn't a FB?

Haha
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theaardvark
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« Reply #153 on: February 08, 2020, 03:33:19 AM »

No downside? How 'bout he isn't a FB?

I don't get it...  neither is John Rush... what's your point?
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #154 on: February 08, 2020, 06:52:41 AM »

Holder's don't have to be QB's, so that's a moot point.

Can anyone point to where they read that a 3rd QB wouldn't be designated as a QB and takes another general roster spot?

Well, the fact that the number of "designated QBs" in terms of a separate roster spot is now fixed at 2.  Everything I've read and heard Ambrosie say hints that if you want a #3 IMP QB, he's coming out of your general IMP roster, thus almost certainly a DI.

Hence your yen for a NAT QB and my yen for a GLOB QB... because in both cases you should be allowed to keep your 4 DIs.

In other words, I think QBs will still be "designated" in terms of one, only one, and always one on field for each O snap.  But I think any 3rd QB will not be part of the "separate designated roster area" in terms of how they appear on the roster.  I could be wrong.

So, roster a NAT QB as a FB, and he has full ability to play any snap, including when QB1 or QB2 is on the field.

I would assume that even though your #3 QB is not in the "2-man designated QB" roster, the rules about always just 1 QB on the field at a time (never 2 and never 0) would still apply to that 3rd QB.  It would be chaos and trickery galore if under the new rules a #3 QB could be on the field as a FB sometimes (with a DQB taking the snap) and sometimes the only QB on the field behind center.

In fact, I want to see the official wording because it's all so murky right now as to how a dressed #3 QB would fit in.  At least we know for sure there can be a dressed #3 QB because Ambrosie said so in black & white terms.  He just didn't say how that #3 is designated.

Because QB's aren't included in the NAT/IMP rules. QB3 as a QB = additional IMP.

QB3 as any other spot = taking another import off the roster.

What part of the roster?  One of the starting IMP guys?  One of the DIs?  Surely it can't be one of your normal starting IMP guys because then you'd have to start an additional NAT in a normal IMP spot just to get that 3rd QB who likely won't see a rep!  So it must be a DI.  And no one is going to do that either.  A valuable rotation DI vs a 3rd QB?  Pffft.

No, the only way you'll see a 3rd QB rostered is if he's a NAT/GLOB and comes from that part of the AR where you already have "extra" guys who don't see many reps (think Exume, or 95% of GLOBs in the league).
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #155 on: February 08, 2020, 03:48:26 PM »

Not wanting to guess any more, I went to the CBA:

Quote
For the 2020 and 2021 seasons, there shall not be more than twenty (20)
American Players, which shall include four (4) designated American Players and which shall
exclude quarterbacks on the Active Roster of each Member Club for regular season, playoff and
Grey Cup games.

- 20 Imps including 4 DI's, excluding QB's

Quote
For the 2020 and 2021 seasons, each Member Club must dress two (2)
quarterbacks for each regular season, playoff and Grey Cup games.

- Must dress 2 QB's, not fixed at 2 QB's

Quote
For the 2020 and 2021 seasons, the Commissioner shall maintain in the League
office a registry of Players under contract with each Member Club. Prior to the
commencement of the regular season schedule each Member Club shall, in
accordance with a timetable prescribed by the Management Council, establish its
active Roster at:
(a)
a maximum of 45 Players, including 2 Players who shall be identified as
quarterbacks and 43 other Players, of whom not more than 20 may be
Americans
- All the way down on page 72... I think I found it.
  2 designated QB's on the active roster. A 3rd QB would therefore not be a QB and would be included in the regular player ratio.

Looks like 'someone' should have done this 9 pages ago.  Wink You're right Tec. 3rd QB's count in the ratio.
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« Reply #156 on: February 08, 2020, 04:01:34 PM »

Not wanting to guess any more, I went to the CBA:

- 20 Imps including 4 DI's, excluding QB's

- Must dress 2 QB's, not fixed at 2 QB's
- All the way down on page 72... I think I found it.
  2 designated QB's on the active roster. A 3rd QB would therefore not be a QB and would be included in the regular player ratio.

Looks like 'someone' should have done this 9 pages ago.  Wink You're right Tec. 3rd QB's count in the ratio.

Wow thanks Burgy!
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theaardvark
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« Reply #157 on: February 09, 2020, 04:18:54 PM »

So, a NAT 3QB does not cost a DI (but costs a NAT backup), an INT 3QB costs a DI, and either can play on any down...
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #158 on: February 09, 2020, 05:46:01 PM »

So, a NAT 3QB does not cost a DI (but costs a NAT backup), an INT 3QB costs a DI, and either can play on any down...
Funny thing is that a NAT QB is a Nat if he's 3rd string, not a NAT if he's 2nd string, and becomes a NAT again if he's the starter.

To roster a 3rd string NAT QB you need to find one who is willing to get paid entry level Canuck money and is better than the NAT he replaces on the roster.

IIRC Bridge is in BC and I can't think of any other NAT QB's who would be available. I guess you could just bring in the best Usports QB, but I'd guess he'd be worse than an import QB.

Is a 3rd string NAT QB is worth a roster spot over a 2nd string NAT backup? Not likely IMO.

Would a 3rd string NAT QB would sign for the same amount of money as a 2nd string NAT backup? I don't see QB's only getting the league minimum.

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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #159 on: February 10, 2020, 06:50:56 AM »

Not wanting to guess any more, I went to the CBA:

Looks like 'someone' should have done this 9 pages ago.  Wink You're right Tec. 3rd QB's count in the ratio.

Thanks so much TB!  Wow, to finally get that question off our shoulders and be sure of it now... Can you post the link here you found that at?  Good for everyone to reference.

So, a NAT 3QB does not cost a DI (but costs a NAT backup), an INT 3QB costs a DI, and either can play on any down...

I'm still not convinced of the "any down" aspect, Aards.  I assume the player will be listed as QB depth in the GDDC.  I think the main rule book words the QB limitations (just/must one on every O down, etc.) just as "quarterback", not as "one of the 2 designated quarterbacks".

If teams read the new rules as the way you think and we see that on the field, I can see Ambrosie clarifying the rules real darn fast!!

If I'm not wrong, what you say would allow:
Collaros+McGuire both in pistol, say spaced a bit apart, with AH behind them both, C can snap to either QB.  C could try to read the blitz direction and snap to the opposite QB and the idle QB could block the blitz side with AH!

That's pure insanity.  No football league can allow that.  I'm sure the wording must disallow this under current rules, or Ambrosie will update them pronto.

I'm also pretty sure my interpretation means Bennett still can't play ST in 2020, even if he's a dressed #3.  Basically everywhere in the rulebook it says qb it will mean all qbs, the 2 and any 3rd qb you choose to dress.

Funny thing is that a NAT QB is a Nat if he's 3rd string, not a NAT if he's 2nd string, and becomes a NAT again if he's the starter.

Why?  Are you referring to the weird never-used useless roster change Ambrosie made as a stop-gap in 2019?  I vaguely remember that.  Otherwise please explain the last bit as I don't get it.

To roster a 3rd string NAT QB you need to find one who is willing to get paid entry level Canuck money and is better than the NAT he replaces on the roster.

Why does he have to be ELC NAT money?  Pay him whatever, right?  Or are you saying no one will be able to afford to pay a 3rd QB, especially a NAT of limited ability, more than ELC?  Certainly teams who haven't blown the QB $ wad could pay an IMP #3 the same as they always have their development QB?  (Keeping in mind IMP #3s will almost never be GD dressed.)

Is a 3rd string NAT QB is worth a roster spot over a 2nd string NAT backup? Not likely IMO.

Would a 3rd string NAT QB would sign for the same amount of money as a 2nd string NAT backup? I don't see QB's only getting the league minimum.

.... but a GLOB would be!  1. Guaranteed ELC by league rule; 2. Why wouldn't a gung-ho GLOB QB want to come try it out vs not playing football at all?; 3. 2nd (and usually 1st) GLOB is otherwise useless no-rep waste of space... why not waste that space with a "free" GLOB that can back up your 1 & 2?  I'm telling you guys!!  Only #2 is the iffy part... do these guys have a market for their talents in Europe that pays more than CFL ELC?
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theaardvark
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« Reply #160 on: February 10, 2020, 01:31:40 PM »

The reason to list a player as QB3 last year was it was an open spot on the roster, dressing a QB3 did not affect your DI's or NAT backups. 

This year, there are no advantages like that for listing a player as QB3.  No smart GM would list a player as QB3.  All it does is limit the team and player's participation.  Especially if yopur 3rd QB is a Bennett / Lynch type player.

You want 3 QBs on your roster this year, it would be silly to actually call QB3 a QB.  Unless you have zero intent to use him as anything but the only guy behind centre on O plays.   

There is no downside to listing them as a FB.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #161 on: February 10, 2020, 02:40:59 PM »

Link: https://media.cfldb.ca/documents/cfl-cflpa-collective-agreement-2019.pdf

As a 3rd QB wouldn't be designated as a QB, they aren't a QB according to the rules, so why would they have to follow any of the QB rules?

The NFL allows more than 1 QB on the field. Next year the CFL will too as long as 1 of them is a 3rd string QB, who isn't designated as a QB.

1st string NI QB's are NI's according to the CBA and 2nd string don't count in the ratio either way. 3rd string QB's do. Hence the NI, not NI, NI again.

You want to pay your starters the most you can so you pay your backups as close to the minimum as possible. You don't want to pay a 3rd string guy more than the 2nd string guys. Paying a 3rd QB salary reduces the amount of money available for the rest of the team.

Do the rules allow a global at #3? Sure. Would a Global QB want to play? Sure. Would they be ready and able to play? Not likely. We can't even find viable NI QB's let along Global ones.

If teams carry a 3rd QB, he'll be an import and he won't be on the game day roster unless the #1 guy has serious injury issues that make it unlikely he'll last a whole game.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2020, 01:04:33 AM »

You want 3 QBs on your roster this year, it would be silly to actually call QB3 a QB.  Unless you have zero intent to use him as anything but the only guy behind centre on O plays.   

There is no downside to listing them as a FB.

Still not convinced Aards.  So you're saying if you call McGuire a FB you could have that scenario I outlined?  If anything like that ever happens Ambrosie will shut it down real fast.

But I guess you couldn't have McGuire as your "FB" and have just him on the field with Collaros.  You still need to satisfy the "one and only one QB must be on the field for all O snaps" rule.  Wait a sec... if you guys say #3 could be designated a FB, then that means you must have another 2-QB-roster QB on the field for all snaps!  That would mean having a #3 "FB/QB" doesn't buy you anything if your #1 and #2 get injured.

No, I'm pretty sure the idea is you have a #3, call him a QB on the GDDC, and he can be the only QB on the field for an O snap.

Argh, I'm getting confused again...
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2020, 01:05:55 AM »


Thanks!  That's dated May 2019... is that because they had it all done they just had to take a year to finally get it ratified?  Or is there a newer CBA out there?
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theaardvark
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« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2020, 04:48:46 AM »

Still not convinced Aards.  So you're saying if you call McGuire a FB you could have that scenario I outlined?  If anything like that ever happens Ambrosie will shut it down real fast.

But I guess you couldn't have McGuire as your "FB" and have just him on the field with Collaros.  You still need to satisfy the "one and only one QB must be on the field for all O snaps" rule.  Wait a sec... if you guys say #3 could be designated a FB, then that means you must have another 2-QB-roster QB on the field for all snaps!  That would mean having a #3 "FB/QB" doesn't buy you anything if your #1 and #2 get injured.

No, I'm pretty sure the idea is you have a #3, call him a QB on the GDDC, and he can be the only QB on the field for an O snap.

Argh, I'm getting confused again...


If McGuire is your #3 and you have a QB2, you have to lose a DI.  If you call him QB3, he is limited to what a QB can do...   but if you call him a FB, he has no limitations.  Either way he takes a DI spot, so why call him a QB?
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