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Author Topic: Would Andrew Harris Be This Mad If He Was Guilty?  (Read 3869 times)
In Motion
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« on: December 13, 2019, 08:40:33 PM »

I'm almost always the one who says, "If there's smoke, there's fire." However, would Andrew Harris
have been so mad for so long if he were guilty of knowingly using something illegal?
I doubt it. I believe him.

https://www.cfl.ca/2019/11/25/oleary-harris-man-mission-grey-cup-win/
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 09:09:03 PM by In Motion » Logged
Slimy Sculpin
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2019, 09:23:46 PM »

I want to believe him but I'll wait to hear about the results of the lab test that he said he was going to have done on that supplement. It has been a while and all that I've heard is......crickets. Anyone hear anything?
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theaardvark
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2019, 10:02:39 PM »

The biggest issue is that how do you prove a supplement had a banned substance in it when purchased, if the container is open...  and while t would be vindicating to name the supplier, that opens you up to libel lawsuits. Because it is almost impossible to prove that specific container came with the banned substance in it...  if he had had a factory sealed container who's chain of custody was unimpeachable, and had it tested by an independent lab.. sure.. maybe then... and even then, I assume he is using a number of different supplements, which one was tainted? 

To me it comes down to this.  He has never been caught before although he has been tested more than most.  t was a substance no athlete would bother using to cheat with because it is old as can be, Harris had tested clean weeks before the dirty test, while he was in the middle of a record season (no reason to start cheating, he was already the best)

So, for me, none of it adds up to anything but an accidental ingestion of a substance in a supplement that was not properly vetted.  Is it his fault?  Yes.  You have to KNOW what you are putting into your body.  He got caught, he paid his penalty. 

To question his work ethic, his natural ability, or his sincerity, that's crap.  But some people don't seem to be able to rise up unless they are standing on top of someone else...
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New_Earth_Mud
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2019, 10:48:09 PM »

I just dont think he did take anything illegal if he new.

So much crap out there now a days...

In my mind and not being a homer.......

Harris has been thru alot in his life. He came back here and said he wanted to bring home the Cup.... I just cant see him putting that all to risk.   Lets be honest here... its a Cup in Canada its not really a World stage. I just dont see why anyone would put this at risk.

Maybe if you will be known World wide ......  it might be attractive.  Money and Fame.


Ok maybe i will be a homer here.....   but i will say out loud i dont think Harris did anything not allowed willing. I dont think hed do that to his team. I dont think hed do that to himself.   
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2019, 06:41:43 AM »

I'm totally on board now with the "AH is innocent" train.  I had to make my choice back when we were all picking our players of the year.  Even trying to not be a "homer", all the evidence is compelling.

The fact that AH was then subject to weekly (or whatever) drug tests after that point, and that he continued to steamroll D's, is all the proof anyone should need.  If he was only good because of the 'roids, then why was he so good in the GC, after a full 4 months with a guaranteed-clean system?

I wonder if something like this can result from some malicious food establishment worker slipping something into his food or drink?  These guys travel to the "enemy" cities all the time, and in places like Regina, basically everyone will recognize him and many hate his guts.  It seems more than possible someone could lace something with a banned substance to knock out our star player.  I'm not saying this happened, as AH already put forward his theory, but surely this is a possibility that exists out there.  And you can't really defend against it.
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BigBomberFan
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2019, 05:58:58 PM »

I believe what Harris is saying--he's my man.
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2019, 12:06:54 AM »

If he was cheating routinely he would have been caught earlier and more often.
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swansong
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2019, 05:05:46 AM »

The guy lost weight and stopped lifting opting instead for yoga. These are not the actions of a guy taking roids....period.
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KINGCHARLES
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2019, 03:01:37 PM »

Typically the league says drug tests are random but ive had someone within the organization say guys that are in the top 10 in stats get tested more frequently. League stat leaders (top 3) get tested even more.
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bigbuff33
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2019, 03:26:36 PM »

I haven't doubted AH for a moment...he's an upstanding guy...

To say he's mad...after that brutal Steve Simmons article on Grey Cup day...I'd be mad too!!

I think AH feels the love from everybody in Winnipeg.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2019, 05:00:15 PM »

The guy lost weight and stopped lifting opting instead for yoga. These are not the actions of a guy taking roids....period.

Exactly... none of his training suggests a benefit from ancient steroids, none of his results show any changes like a steroid user would show... he just gets better with age, because he works at it.  A buddy of mine who plays hockey against him in the winter laughed when he heard the rumour that he was juicing.  "Maybe Booster Juice, with a Wheatgrass shooter"...
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rubanski
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« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2019, 03:42:56 PM »

I believe Harris as well, and I'm sure it has plenty to do with me being a homer. I also have several first hand stories of things he's done, and seems like a great guy.

I will say this though... remember Lance Armstrong? Poster child for cancer survivor & all around great guy, remarkably successful athlete. LiveStrong - foundation, gear, exercise equipment. You name it, he had it. Dude was adamant that he was NOT a cheater, and it felt right to believe him.

Not saying that's who I think Harris is - at all. Just saying this is what it is. Harris had some crap in his body that should not have been there, and it's his fault it was. Frankly the punishment should be harsher that it is.

Regardless, he's paid his time and is "out of jail". Let's all move on.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2019, 03:58:33 PM »

I believe Harris as well, and I'm sure it has plenty to do with me being a homer. I also have several first hand stories of things he's done, and seems like a great guy.

I will say this though... remember Lance Armstrong? Poster child for cancer survivor & all around great guy, remarkably successful athlete. LiveStrong - foundation, gear, exercise equipment. You name it, he had it. Dude was adamant that he was NOT a cheater, and it felt right to believe him.

Not saying that's who I think Harris is - at all. Just saying this is what it is. Harris had some crap in his body that should not have been there, and it's his fault it was. Frankly the punishment should be harsher that it is.

Regardless, he's paid his time and is "out of jail". Let's all move on.

Different situation than Lance Armstrong, he had an army of corporate lawyers to silence people with inside knowledge of the doping scheme and a team of scientist altering his blood daily to keep the gravy train rolling. Fascinating story when you follow it through from start to finish, it's cheating on a corporate scale compared to Harris's little misadventure.

https://www.theverge.com/2013/1/17/3886424/programming-your-body-lance-armstrong-and-doping-technology
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theaardvark
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« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2019, 04:06:06 PM »

I believe Harris as well, and I'm sure it has plenty to do with me being a homer. I also have several first hand stories of things he's done, and seems like a great guy.

I will say this though... remember Lance Armstrong? Poster child for cancer survivor & all around great guy, remarkably successful athlete. LiveStrong - foundation, gear, exercise equipment. You name it, he had it. Dude was adamant that he was NOT a cheater, and it felt right to believe him.

Not saying that's who I think Harris is - at all. Just saying this is what it is. Harris had some crap in his body that should not have been there, and it's his fault it was. Frankly the punishment should be harsher that it is.

Regardless, he's paid his time and is "out of jail". Let's all move on.

Thing you have to remember, Lance Armstrong was cheating when the cheaters had a huge advantage over the testers...  not so anymore.  Once the testers caught up to the cheaters, Lance was exposed, and he wasn't the only one who was cheating.  Like the Soviet women's swim and weightlifting teams, who isn't going to deny cheating, even when it is blatantly obvious that they are.  When tenths of a second counts...

Second, the steroid that was detected was an ancient steroid, which is easily detected when not actively masked.  There is no reason to think that this particular product, used at the level detected, would have any effect on AH33's performance.  

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GCn19
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« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2019, 05:01:27 PM »

Armstrong had his entire multi-million dollar brand on the line. If he didn't deny he would have lost tens of millions. Harris doesn't have the kind of stakes that he did.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2019, 01:57:09 PM »

Harris was caught cheating so he is guilty. The question folks are really asking is did he do it on purpose and we'll never know for sure either way.
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booch
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2019, 02:11:37 PM »

Harris was caught cheating so he is guilty. The question folks are really asking is did he do it on purpose and we'll never know for sure either way.

Man hopefully this will go away, but coming from that scene...a user...trainer and very familiar with PED's and performance I can say he was not cheating and if that was in his system in it unknown to him, and the amount "found" would have did diddly squat absolutely nothing for him....further to that it is not a drug an athlete would use for speed, agility, recovery and not one a skilled position guy would use.

To use that drug he was accused of to full benefit (in season) he would have held probably 10 pounds of water bloat on his body, extremely noticeable in the face, would have prob been playing at about 235 to 240 pounds (minimum) and would have had next to no cardio vascular capacity whatsoever..he would be subbing in and out constantly...not taking the ball in various ways multiple times during a series...not happening

But the uninformed, uneducated, un-familiar to the scene will doubt..hate..and have their theories...and it's rather comical to say the least
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theaardvark
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2019, 02:25:31 PM »

Harris was caught cheating so he is guilty. The question folks are really asking is did he do it on purpose and we'll never know for sure either way.

Not to split hairs, Harris was caught in contravention of the rules.  "Cheating" implies intent, which cannot be proven, and in my mind, based on the facts at hand, (no advantage gained) you cannot establish that there was any intent to "cheat".

He made a mistake, ingested a supplement that was tainted, and he paid a huge price for that.  But in no way has it been demonstrated that his actions were in any way "cheating" to gain advantage...
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2019, 04:13:25 PM »

Maybe cheating is the wrong word. He got caught with an illegal substance in his system so he is in fact guilty. It doesn't matter the amount or the number of times he was tested. All that matters is that he took it. Why? To get an advantage, real or perceived. I doubt he knew exactly what was in the supplement(s) he was/is taking, but that doesn't change the fact that he knowingly used it.

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kkc60
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2019, 04:22:53 PM »

He got caught. He is guilty until proven innocent. No better than any other player who has gotten busted.

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booch
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2019, 04:25:03 PM »

Maybe cheating is the wrong word. He got caught with an illegal substance in his system so he is in fact guilty. It doesn't matter the amount or the number of times he was tested. All that matters is that he took it. Why? To get an advantage, real or perceived. I doubt he knew exactly what was in the supplement(s) he was/is taking, but that doesn't change the fact that he knowingly used it.


Tainted supplements don't disclose the drug not supposed to be in there on their label...especially a controlled substance...which steroids are
Also a lot of egit supplements don't fully disclose whats in them as well, or the amount of the stuff not banned....

And not to beat a dead horse to death...again...but the alleged stuff he was supposedly cheating with would have served him no in-season bebefits whatsoever and would have actually made his play drop off, and most likely caused him to be injured....don't know how many times I gotta say this, but whatever...dumb people will just continue to say..and assume dumb things
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GCn19
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2019, 04:36:31 PM »

Not to split hairs, Harris was caught in contravention of the rules.  "Cheating" implies intent, which cannot be proven, and in my mind, based on the facts at hand, (no advantage gained) you cannot establish that there was any intent to "cheat".

He made a mistake, ingested a supplement that was tainted, and he paid a huge price for that.  But in no way has it been demonstrated that his actions were in any way "cheating" to gain advantage...

No....he cheated...and paid the consequences. Intent has nothing to do with it. Breaking the rules is breaking the rules whether you mean to do it or not. However, he did not have the intent to cheat, therefore, the media quacks that cover our team had no business disparaging his reputation and adding additional penalty and embarrassment. He took a bad supplement and was suspended, that is as far as this should ever have gone because as booch and others have pointed out this was clearly an accident. That doesn't excuse him from league penalty but the local media playing morality police was a perversion of their respective roles and they should be ashamed. This snowflake society is in part created because the media decided they were going to stop publishing facts and being objective and start enforcing their own liberal sensitivities independent of circumstance. Shameful...and it is the reason why many have turned away from main stream media.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 04:39:46 PM by GCn19 » Logged

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theaardvark
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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2019, 04:45:03 PM »

Maybe cheating is the wrong word. He got caught with an illegal substance in his system so he is in fact guilty. It doesn't matter the amount or the number of times he was tested. All that matters is that he took it. Why? To get an advantage, real or perceived. I doubt he knew exactly what was in the supplement(s) he was/is taking, but that doesn't change the fact that he knowingly used it.



Seriously?  A supplement that he was told was legal and he took thinking it was legal turns out is tainted with an ancient, never used by professional "cheaters" steroid.  He was duped, sold a bad product, and he has more than paid the price for testing positive.  He took the supplement to feed his body optimally.  Not to cheat, but to get everything he can out of what he has, legally. 
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GCn19
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« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2019, 04:51:52 PM »

Seriously?  A supplement that he was told was legal and he took thinking it was legal turns out is tainted with an ancient, never used by professional "cheaters" steroid.  He was duped, sold a bad product, and he has more than paid the price for testing positive.  He took the supplement to feed his body optimally.  Not to cheat, but to get everything he can out of what he has, legally. 

None of that changes the fact that he tested positive for a banned substance. Just to play devil's advocate, athletes do know the dangers of tainted supplements and still search out these fringe supplements to try create an edge. Harris rolled the dice on an iffy supplement and it backfired on him.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2019, 04:52:07 PM »

Seriously?  A supplement that he was told was legal and he took thinking it was legal turns out is tainted with an ancient, never used by professional "cheaters" steroid.  He was duped, sold a bad product, and he has more than paid the price for testing positive.  He took the supplement to feed his body optimally.  Not to cheat, but to get everything he can out of what he has, legally. 

Not to quibble but I don't believe anyone advised Harris the product was safe, he took a chance on a new unknown supplement and paid the consequences, which he has openly admitted was irresponsible and dumb.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2019, 04:56:20 PM »

Not to quibble but I don't believe anyone advised Harris the product was safe, he took a chance on a new unknown supplement and paid the consequences, which he has openly admitted was irresponsible and dumb.

Someone sold him the product, and there is no way he takes it if he suspects it is not "safe".  So it was represented to him as safe, either by someone, or by the label...  and yes, it was a dumb mistake.  Supplements are expensive, might have been something as simple as a syndrome every Winnipegger seems susceptible to, looking for something less expensive...
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GCn19
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2019, 05:02:03 PM »

Someone sold him the product, and there is no way he takes it if he suspects it is not "safe".  So it was represented to him as safe, either by someone, or by the label...  and yes, it was a dumb mistake.  Supplements are expensive, might have been something as simple as a syndrome every Winnipegger seems susceptible to, looking for something less expensive...

A lot of supplement game is played out online and are bought from foreign countries. There are literally warnings by trainers and athletes everywhere that some supplements stemming from these places are tainted. You think he went to GNC and bought these?
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2019, 05:04:34 PM »

Maybe cheating is the wrong word. He got caught with an illegal substance in his system so he is in fact guilty. It doesn't matter the amount or the number of times he was tested. All that matters is that he took it. Why? To get an advantage, real or perceived. I doubt he knew exactly what was in the supplement(s) he was/is taking, but that doesn't change the fact that he knowingly used it.



Well yeah he "knowingly used it", just as one knowingly eats a chicken sandwich with salmonella in it.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2019, 05:27:49 PM »

Well yeah he "knowingly used it", just as one knowingly eats a chicken sandwich with salmonella in it.

LOL or a chicken sandwich made with a "chicken-like substance" if eating at Subway.  Cheesy

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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2019, 06:04:52 PM »

LOL or a chicken sandwich made with a "chicken-like substance" if eating at Subway.  Cheesy




Hey there, road kill is good eats, don't be knocking the Way.
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3rdand1.5
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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2019, 06:12:42 PM »

Fact; He was caught with a banned substance in his system more than the limit set out to be allowed. Fact; he had it re-tested and it also failed. Fact; he passed his test after the suspension. As of now that is all that's fact everything else is opinion and he said, she said.

He IS guilty as it WAS in his system. He claims he did not know how it happened, many people believe him, many people do not believe him. Believer or non believer in what he is telling you is your choice and your right and one side is no-more-correct than the other
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GCn19
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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2019, 06:23:28 PM »


Hey there, road kill is good eats, don't be knocking the Way.

When I was a teenager growing up I had a trapline for extra money. I had just finished checking my traps and had the haul in the back of a half ton and decided to stop for lunch at a restaurant owned by a gentleman whose culture accepts eating cats and dogs. He was outside sweeping in front and he looked in the back of my truck and saw a couple beavers and a coyote. He asked me what I was going to do with these animals. Told him I was going to sell the fur. He asked me if I ate the meat. I said no way that meat is no good. He looked at me and said "All meat is good meat". Since his was the only restaurant in town, I had no choice but to not worry about mystery meat after that.
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GCn19
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2019, 06:26:19 PM »

Fact; He was caught with a banned substance in his system more than the limit set out to be allowed. Fact; he had it re-tested and it also failed. Fact; he passed his test after the suspension. As of now that is all that's fact everything else is opinion and he said, she said.

He IS guilty as it WAS in his system. He claims he did not know how it happened, many people believe him, many people do not believe him. Believer or non believer in what he is telling you is your choice and your right and one side is no-more-correct than the other

There is no acceptable limit for a banned substance. Even the miniscule trace found in Harris's blood is a violation of the rule. I don't for one second accept the premise that Harris knowingly took steroids. I, also, do not for one second accept the premise that Harris did not know the dangers of tainted supplements.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2019, 07:03:35 PM »

Fact; He was caught with a banned substance in his system more than the limit set out to be allowed. Fact; he had it re-tested and it also failed. Fact; he passed his test after the suspension. As of now that is all that's fact everything else is opinion and he said, she said.

He IS guilty as it WAS in his system. He claims he did not know how it happened, many people believe him, many people do not believe him. Believer or non believer in what he is telling you is your choice and your right and one side is no-more-correct than the other

The debate is not whether he was guilty of having a banned substance in his system.  The debate is :

Did he do so knowingly in an attempt to increase his competitive level.

Does anyone think that the level and type of substance he tested positive for would enhance him at all? 

There is no way that he would have gained competitive advantage with the product used, in the amount detected.  Just not a reasonable concept.  Add to that, he was, at the time, the leading rusher in the league and at the top of his game... why would he want/need to cheat?  How does one improve upon "best"?
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Jesse
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« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2019, 08:02:55 PM »

The debate is not whether he was guilty of having a banned substance in his system.  The debate is :

Did he do so knowingly in an attempt to increase his competitive level.

Does anyone think that the level and type of substance he tested positive for would enhance him at all? 

There is no way that he would have gained competitive advantage with the product used, in the amount detected.  Just not a reasonable concept.  Add to that, he was, at the time, the leading rusher in the league and at the top of his game... why would he want/need to cheat?  How does one improve upon "best"?

A lot of the arguments you're making are based on the premise that you believe Andrew Harris. And that's fine, but there's very few actual facts.

All we know is the name of the substance and that it was in his system. Everything else is taken on faith.
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booch
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2019, 08:17:18 PM »

A lot of the arguments you're making are based on the premise that you believe Andrew Harris. And that's fine, but there's very few actual facts.

All we know is the name of the substance and that it was in his system. Everything else is taken on faith.

I know the substance, the role and use of it..benefits...negative effects..side effects....among many many others...pro's and con's of PED's and training for football, very well versed in it I can say, not an expert, but probably know more than any media guy, anyone on this forum, and more than your average player...as was a user, and reluctantly I will say supplied and administered it to athletes,to reach certain "potentials" as well as role of newer things now like peptides (which many an athlete is utilizing)

I can with 100 percent certainty say that the trace amount of the drug he had in his system was taken unintentionally and unbeknownst to him..just not a readily available drug, not of benefit for a speed and skill athlete and would actually be a performance decreaser, not an enhancer and would cause more negative results than anything positive. There are wayyyy better things he could have been on..safer...actually available (which the one he is on isn't) and one that I havn't heard being available from a trusted supplier in decades in Canada, let alone Winnipeg

Believe what you want but if he was using that drug in the amount required to gain strength and mass benefits..which it was intended for he would have looked like a bloated momo who if u poked with a pin would pop..
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2019, 10:18:32 PM »

It doesn't matter if the banned PED would have helped him or not. He took the supplement thinking it would help him, otherwise he wouldn't have taken it at all. Maybe a player said to Harris, I'm using supplement "Z" and its great. Harris decides to add it to his regime in season and it turns out that it's got a banned PED in it. That doesn't change the fact that he tested positive.

Who would have told Harris that the supplement was legal? The guy who sold it to him? How would he even know for sure if, as others have stated, there are no tests.
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rubanski
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« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2019, 01:42:21 PM »

It doesn't matter if the banned PED would have helped him or not. He took the supplement thinking it would help him, otherwise he wouldn't have taken it at all. Maybe a player said to Harris, I'm using supplement "Z" and its great. Harris decides to add it to his regime in season and it turns out that it's got a banned PED in it. That doesn't change the fact that he tested positive.

Who would have told Harris that the supplement was legal? The guy who sold it to him? How would he even know for sure if, as others have stated, there are no tests.

I agree wholeheartedly. Furthermore, the testing system is flawed. There's all kinds of masking agents to hide what you're taking. OK, the stuff Harris was taking gives him no advantage, what if his supplements had stuff that did, and also some masking agents?

He was an idiot for taking something not on the approved list. He paid the price, let's move on.
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booch
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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2019, 02:00:52 PM »

I agree wholeheartedly. Furthermore, the testing system is flawed. There's all kinds of masking agents to hide what you're taking. OK, the stuff Harris was taking gives him no advantage, what if his supplements had stuff that did, and also some masking agents?

He was an idiot for taking something not on the approved list. He paid the price, let's move on.
There are hundreds of supps that aren't on the approved list that are just fine and this "approved" list is just brands that have paid to have that designation. So then there are 1000's of idiot athletes out there because everyone doesn't live by this list...sorry to rain on your parade..I was a part owner in a Supplement Store/personal Training facility in Winnipeg several years back, and trained some players not just on the Bombers, but other teams in the CFL as well, and most if not all bought stuff not on the "approved" list and they were not idiots...but it was common knowledge and known they were just fine, it's just the company felt no need to pay to have the designation as their brand reputation spoke volumes

Also, a company will not add ped's as well as masking agents into a supplement as it would make no sense cost wise, in order to re-coup their costs and make a profit it would be at a price point nobody would buy.

There are many reputable brands currently not on this "approved" list that guys use daily..and not sure what a lot of you people think supplements are, but for the most part supplements have no performance enhancing properties anyway, and 80 percent are basically a waste of your money and you can get same benefits from food.

Over the counter meds like sudafed and similar brands are on the banned list for what its worth..
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theaardvark
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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2019, 02:04:21 PM »

It doesn't matter if the banned PED would have helped him or not. He took the supplement thinking it would help him, otherwise he wouldn't have taken it at all. Maybe a player said to Harris, I'm using supplement "Z" and its great. Harris decides to add it to his regime in season and it turns out that it's got a banned PED in it. That doesn't change the fact that he tested positive.

Who would have told Harris that the supplement was legal? The guy who sold it to him? How would he even know for sure if, as others have stated, there are no tests.

There are tests (expensive) and packaging/labeling laws (totally at the manufacturers compliance level) as well as legal issues with putting this substance (controlled) in an over the counter supplement.  

Of course, whoever was selling it made sure Harris thought it was legal.  They probably thought it was.  Others than may have used it might not have had to be tested.  

The facts remain, it is not something that would have aided his training at all.  He was already the best.  There is no reason for him to risk taking an ineffective and inappropriate product and risk the outcome that actually happened.  So the whole idea he was "Cheating" is moot.  He broke the rules, but it certainly wasn't cheating...

Cheating:
"1.act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2019, 02:47:50 PM »

The fact's are that it's banned substance, he had it in his system and he failed a PED test. The rest is conjecture.

If he went off of the 'approved list' then he took the chance and he got busted. It doesn't matter if hundreds of others do it too. The amount in his system doesn't matter. Whether it really helped or not doesn't matter. Whether the sales guy told him it should be fine or not doesn't matter. These are all justifications.

What matters is he got caught, lost 2 games, lost his chance to be MOP this year and lost a chance to be Canada's athlete of the year.
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booch
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« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2019, 02:52:48 PM »

The fact's are that it's banned substance, he had it in his system and he failed a PED test. The rest is conjecture.

If he went off of the 'approved list' then he took the chance and he got busted. It doesn't matter if hundreds of others do it too. The amount in his system doesn't matter. Whether it really helped or not doesn't matter. Whether the sales guy told him it should be fine or not doesn't matter. These are all justifications.

What matters is he got caught, lost 2 games, lost his chance to be MOP this year and lost a chance to be Canada's athlete of the year.

You make it sound like..or seem like he was secretly taking something he knows was a performance enhancing banned substance...and got caught...foolish him, but that wasn't the case....but yeah he had a substance in his system...unknown to him, and pretty much unintended to him....and it's not because he was foolish to go away from the "approved" list...drop that narrative as I bet close to all the players in the league are taking supplements not on that list...actually...i will change that statement...I know the majority are
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2019, 03:07:06 PM »

You make it sound like..or seem like he was secretly taking something he knows was a performance enhancing banned substance...and got caught...foolish him, but that wasn't the case....but yeah he had a substance in his system...unknown to him, and pretty much unintended to him....and it's not because he was foolish to go away from the "approved" list...drop that narrative as I bet close to all the players in the league are taking supplements not on that list...actually...i will change that statement...I know the majority are
Nope, I'm simply choosing facts over conjecture. I'm not pretending to know anything more than he got caught with an illegal PED in his system.

You're using the 'everyone else is doing it' argument that 6 year old's use. I'm sure your mother asked you 'If everyone was jumping off a cliff, would you?'. It was a valid question then. It's a valid question now. It doesn't matter that everyone's doing it. Harris is the one who got caught and paid the price.

The whole thing should have been over after he served his 2 game suspension, but here we are months later rehashing it. Time to let it go.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2019, 03:10:56 PM »

Nope, I'm simply choosing facts over conjecture. I'm not pretending to know anything more than he got caught with an illegal PED in his system.

You're using the 'everyone else is doing it' argument that 6 year old's use. I'm sure your mother asked you 'If everyone was jumping off a cliff, would you?'. It was a valid question then. It's a valid question now. It doesn't matter that everyone's doing it. Harris is the one who got caught and paid the price.

The whole thing should have been over after he served his 2 game suspension, but here we are months later rehashing it. Time to let it go.

Well there's no doubt that the banned substance was found in his system objectively and that as per rules he served the defined punishment. However, there is still a case in the court of public opinion that isn't going to disappear overnight just because the test and suspension are over. That's what this is about.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2019, 06:31:09 PM »

Well there's no doubt that the banned substance was found in his system objectively and that as per rules he served the defined punishment. However, there is still a case in the court of public opinion that isn't going to disappear overnight just because the test and suspension are over. That's what this is about.

Harris haters and Riderfans are never going to let it go or forget it happened.
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booch
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« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2019, 06:49:05 PM »

Harris haters and Riderfans are never going to let it go or forget it happened.
Yeah I see in a post there now they say Augustine is an obvious juicer lol
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2019, 07:17:51 PM »

Yeah I see in a post there now they say Augustine is an obvious juicer lol

In the same thread where they're whining about signing LaFrance when Augustine's a potential FA I assume?
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booch
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« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2019, 07:25:49 PM »

In the same thread where they're whining about signing LaFrance when Augustine's a potential FA I assume?

I believe that is the one correct
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2019, 07:53:51 PM »

The whole thing should have been over after he served his 2 game suspension, but here we are months later rehashing it. Time to let it go.

If this is your view, feel free to excuse yourself from the discussion. I agree: this should've been over long ago, but it isn't. The media made sure to pour enough fuel on it.

Harris haters and Riderfans are never going to let it go or forget it happened.

Good thing their opinions are irrelevant, much like that garbage dump of a forum.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2019, 03:28:22 AM »

The whole thing should have been over after he served his 2 game suspension, but here we are months later rehashing it. Time to let it go.

This.  Doesn't matter if he "did the crime or not" because he's now done the time.  The time is the same no matter what Harris' intentions.  It's done, over.  If Ridersfans think it's not enough "time" then get Ambrosie to stiffen the penalties.  But you can't retroactively apply them to Harris.

(P.S. I believe AH33 and booch.)

Harris haters and Riderfans are never going to let it go or forget it happened.

Yes, that is the problem.  I won't repeat some of the gossip they are saying there, since some people here don't understand the difference between reporting their discussions vs holding their opinions.  But some over there hold very nasty opinions of AH's entire career.  Funny how they don't apply the same standard to 2018-suspended Thigpen.

Does someone have a list of all the recent (say 5 or 10 years) failed drug test CFL players?  Or can we compile one from memory?  Thigpen, Banks, Bourussa, AH... might help to illustrate the hypocrisy, as from what I can tell every other player has been forgiven.

Funny how Banks', league MOP, reputation and legacy are now apparently spotless, and all sins forgiven, after his 2016 failed drug test... And Bourussa got a CFLPA award on the same year he failed his drug test!  Anyone singling out Harris as somehow worse than all the other PED-positives is just looking to rip on Harris, and this just makes a convenient excuse.

I say we, as the WPG fans, should just drop the whole topic.  Let Ridersfans be the only ones harping on it.  Why add fuel to the fire?  The only way it can get put behind him/us is to let it fade away into the sunset.
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« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2019, 04:07:11 AM »

I've read all the posts here, and a lot of good points.  Booch - thank you for your insight into the world of supplements and the cfl.  It really does shed some light.

I keep reading how the facts are he took a substance, took a chance, got caught, that's it.  Doesn't matter if it would help or not.  Doesn't matter the level of substance detected.  It as there, he should have known it was a risk.

I think booch covered a lot of this.

Something I haven't seen so far - AH was tested a week (I believe - very shortly before the positive test) and this was negative.  This is significant as it shows the substance was only a trace amount shown on the one occasion, and not right before.  Clearly not used extensively.  

I am medical - trace amounts means it is either showing a long time after it was used as levels in the body slowly decrease over time  (so it could have only been used at an effective level a long time before) or it was taken at a dose that had no benefit whatsoever.  The fact that a test right before was negative proves the latter.

This was taken by accident.  There was no intent to enhance performance by using this substance at the time he tested positive.  Period.  If it is in trace amounts on the one occasion he tested positive and not a week before, he did not take it at a level that could have been beneficial when he tested positive.  Is that clear?

One more point.  I suggest reading Paul Friesen's article as to why he didn't think AH should've been excluded from voting.  It makes sense.  The rules are clear, if you test positive then you are suspended for 2 games.  That's it.  Nothing banning from awards.  He sat for 2 games, and he still dominated his position.  His numbers showed he should not have been snubbed like he was.  Based on the rules he stood above others, and the media chose to take a stand and vote against him.  

I believe some of them when they wrote their apologist diatribe explaining why they chose to vote against him.  But as the rules are in the cfl (not eliminating anyone that tested positive), they clearly decided to make the vote about themselves grandstanding against cheating, and not about the cfl.  Not saying they are wrong, just saying they are not sticking to the criteria for these votes.  So yes, they went outside the criteria.

AH did not knowingly cheat based on these results - unless he is an idiot that went against all scientific data and somehow believed taking tiny traces of a banned substance would be beneficial to him to the point he would risk being caught.  I'm pretty sure he isn't an idiot.

You can argue the factors of taking a substance not on the approved list.  But suggesting he may have taken this banned substance knowingly is worse than conjecture - it goes against the facts.



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TBURGESS
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« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2019, 02:00:59 PM »

Here's the story we are to believe, based mostly on conjecture, not facts.

Everyone is taking supplements. Most are are taking unapproved supplements. Harris is the only one in years who got a 'contaminated' batch in a completely unregulated industry, then got tested or at least the only one using this excuse. It's not his fault because it could have happened to anyone, but didn't. No intent. Just the worst luck of any CFL player in the last few years.
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« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2019, 02:31:34 PM »

I've read all the posts here, and a lot of good points.  Booch - thank you for your insight into the world of supplements and the cfl.  It really does shed some light.

I keep reading how the facts are he took a substance, took a chance, got caught, that's it.  Doesn't matter if it would help or not.  Doesn't matter the level of substance detected.  It as there, he should have known it was a risk.

I think booch covered a lot of this.

Something I haven't seen so far - AH was tested a week (I believe - very shortly before the positive test) and this was negative.  This is significant as it shows the substance was only a trace amount shown on the one occasion, and not right before.  Clearly not used extensively.  

I am medical - trace amounts means it is either showing a long time after it was used as levels in the body slowly decrease over time  (so it could have only been used at an effective level a long time before) or it was taken at a dose that had no benefit whatsoever.  The fact that a test right before was negative proves the latter.

This was taken by accident.  There was no intent to enhance performance by using this substance at the time he tested positive.  Period.  If it is in trace amounts on the one occasion he tested positive and not a week before, he did not take it at a level that could have been beneficial when he tested positive.  Is that clear?

One more point.  I suggest reading Paul Friesen's article as to why he didn't think AH should've been excluded from voting.  It makes sense.  The rules are clear, if you test positive then you are suspended for 2 games.  That's it.  Nothing banning from awards.  He sat for 2 games, and he still dominated his position.  His numbers showed he should not have been snubbed like he was.  Based on the rules he stood above others, and the media chose to take a stand and vote against him.  

I believe some of them when they wrote their apologist diatribe explaining why they chose to vote against him.  But as the rules are in the cfl (not eliminating anyone that tested positive), they clearly decided to make the vote about themselves grandstanding against cheating, and not about the cfl.  Not saying they are wrong, just saying they are not sticking to the criteria for these votes.  So yes, they went outside the criteria.

AH did not knowingly cheat based on these results - unless he is an idiot that went against all scientific data and somehow believed taking tiny traces of a banned substance would be beneficial to him to the point he would risk being caught.  I'm pretty sure he isn't an idiot.

You can argue the factors of taking a substance not on the approved list.  But suggesting he may have taken this banned substance knowingly is worse than conjecture - it goes against the facts.

I agree with this as the most likely scenario. However, the only odd thing in my mind is that this means he took a new/different supplement between tests and in the middle of the season. How often do athletes change that regime mid-season? And if he did, surely it would be pretty obvious which it was. If it was simply a new container of some supplement he always takes, then he's an extremely unlikely guy and no wonder people would doubt that explanation.
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booch
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« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2019, 03:09:44 PM »

I've read all the posts here, and a lot of good points.  Booch - thank you for your insight into the world of supplements and the cfl.  It really does shed some light.

I keep reading how the facts are he took a substance, took a chance, got caught, that's it.  Doesn't matter if it would help or not.  Doesn't matter the level of substance detected.  It as there, he should have known it was a risk.

I think booch covered a lot of this.

Something I haven't seen so far - AH was tested a week (I believe - very shortly before the positive test) and this was negative.  This is significant as it shows the substance was only a trace amount shown on the one occasion, and not right before.  Clearly not used extensively.  

I am medical - trace amounts means it is either showing a long time after it was used as levels in the body slowly decrease over time  (so it could have only been used at an effective level a long time before) or it was taken at a dose that had no benefit whatsoever.  The fact that a test right before was negative proves the latter.

This was taken by accident.  There was no intent to enhance performance by using this substance at the time he tested positive.  Period.  If it is in trace amounts on the one occasion he tested positive and not a week before, he did not take it at a level that could have been beneficial when he tested positive.  Is that clear?

One more point.  I suggest reading Paul Friesen's article as to why he didn't think AH should've been excluded from voting.  It makes sense.  The rules are clear, if you test positive then you are suspended for 2 games.  That's it.  Nothing banning from awards.  He sat for 2 games, and he still dominated his position.  His numbers showed he should not have been snubbed like he was.  Based on the rules he stood above others, and the media chose to take a stand and vote against him.  

I believe some of them when they wrote their apologist diatribe explaining why they chose to vote against him.  But as the rules are in the cfl (not eliminating anyone that tested positive), they clearly decided to make the vote about themselves grandstanding against cheating, and not about the cfl.  Not saying they are wrong, just saying they are not sticking to the criteria for these votes.  So yes, they went outside the criteria.

AH did not knowingly cheat based on these results - unless he is an idiot that went against all scientific data and somehow believed taking tiny traces of a banned substance would be beneficial to him to the point he would risk being caught.  I'm pretty sure he isn't an idiot.

You can argue the factors of taking a substance not on the approved list.  But suggesting he may have taken this banned substance knowingly is worse than conjecture - it goes against the facts.





well said...nice to see another person who understands these things, obviously knows what a drugs half life is..clinical dose to be beneficial..etc..etc...and I agree with all you wrote
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booch
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« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2019, 03:16:52 PM »

I agree with this as the most likely scenario. However, the only odd thing in my mind is that this means he took a new/different supplement between tests and in the middle of the season. How often do athletes change that regime mid-season? And if he did, surely it would be pretty obvious which it was. If it was simply a new container of some supplement he always takes, then he's an extremely unlikely guy and no wonder people would doubt that explanation.

Not necessarily true actually...we recommend prior to each serving of a supplement...especially a powdered one mixed in a drink that you shake the every living heck outta it to ensure it is mixed thoroughly and there is no settling.

I have experienced first hand the difference in a pre-workout for example where it had settled and it basically had no effect, or not the effect it was supposed to, and yeah guys will switch things up mid-season...thats not uncommon

Also for the most part store employees don't know much if anything about their products other than what you can read on the label, and comments from customers who have used them..so take their advice/comments at face value. The supplement he got dinged on was from a health food store as opposed to a Popeyes or GNC...and not to to be taken as truth or anything but I actually think it was a supplement moreso for his bedroom performance not for training...
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theaardvark
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« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2019, 04:20:29 PM »

Not necessarily true actually...we recommend prior to each serving of a supplement...especially a powdered one mixed in a drink that you shake the every living heck outta it to ensure it is mixed thoroughly and there is no settling.

I have experienced first hand the difference in a pre-workout for example where it had settled and it basically had no effect, or not the effect it was supposed to, and yeah guys will switch things up mid-season...thats not uncommon

Also for the most part store employees don't know much if anything about their products other than what you can read on the label, and comments from customers who have used them..so take their advice/comments at face value. The supplement he got dinged on was from a health food store as opposed to a Popeyes or GNC...and not to to be taken as truth or anything but I actually think it was a supplement moreso for his bedroom performance not for training...

Really?  I hadn't heard this item being reported... I didn't realize they had released any information about the source of the suspected contamination.  If that is true, it explains a lot...

As to the other players who have been suspended for violations of this policy, how many were legit cheating, and how many were suspected contamination?  Just curious.
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Jesse
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« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2019, 05:18:54 PM »

Really?  I hadn't heard this item being reported... I didn't realize they had released any information about the source of the suspected contamination.  If that is true, it explains a lot...

As to the other players who have been suspended for violations of this policy, how many were legit cheating, and how many were suspected contamination?  Just curious.

That doesn't explain a lot. What do you even mean?

And I don't know if you heard, but it's not cheating gif players don't intend to do it and none of them know how it got in their diet.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2019, 05:53:45 PM »

That doesn't explain a lot. What do you even mean?

And I don't know if you heard, but it's not cheating gif players don't intend to do it and none of them know how it got in their diet.

If he bought a supplement from a health food store, rather than a supplement store, I can understand the staff not knowing the source the way a supplement store would. 

As to "intent", some players are actually juicing with the intent to cheat.  Some (like I believe Harris did) accidentally ingest an item in contravention of the rules, and are subject to the penalty.  Big difference between the two...
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The Zipp
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« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2019, 06:20:09 PM »

Not necessarily true actually...we recommend prior to each serving of a supplement...especially a powdered one mixed in a drink that you shake the every living heck outta it to ensure it is mixed thoroughly and there is no settling.

I have experienced first hand the difference in a pre-workout for example where it had settled and it basically had no effect, or not the effect it was supposed to, and yeah guys will switch things up mid-season...thats not uncommon

Also for the most part store employees don't know much if anything about their products other than what you can read on the label, and comments from customers who have used them..so take their advice/comments at face value. The supplement he got dinged on was from a health food store as opposed to a Popeyes or GNC...and not to to be taken as truth or anything but I actually think it was a supplement moreso for his bedroom performance not for training...

yes it was a male geared supplement...that was indicated in the initial reporting.  Can't remember if it was a brick and mortar store or a website (I don't think they said but I could have forgotten)
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GCn19
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« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2019, 06:33:07 PM »

Listen, there are ultra reliable places to get your supplements. They are expensive. There are also the supplements that a lot of gym rats take that are more dubious and cheaper. In all likelihood, AH had a supplement recommended to him by what he thought was a reliable source and it ended up being a sketchy supplement. Happens all the time. Gym rats don't care what is in their supplements because they don't have to pee test. AH made the mistake of using what was likely a highly effective but dubious supplement and he should have researched it more as very rarely does a supplement come back tainted on a one time basis.

Also, as Booch alludes to, there is a chance that he was taking meds for increased sexual performance. Very common for those that use supplements to buy these, but if so, he should have known that these type of supplements in particular are known for testing highly for tainted substances.

Bottom line is that anyone who knows more than a thimble full of knowledge about steroids knows that no one in their right mind would take big stan unless you were trying to win a bodybuilding competition that has no testing. It is probably the easiest steroid to detect, hardest to hide and is one of the more expensive steroids that there is and has very specific use to add extreme muscle mass quickly.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 06:37:02 PM by GCn19 » Logged

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the paw
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« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2019, 06:59:51 PM »

This thread should be locked, the printouts shredded, incinerated, and the ashes set in concrete and dumped in the Marianas Trench. 

And then we should never speak of this subject again. 
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2019, 07:39:13 PM »

This thread should be locked, the printouts shredded, incinerated, and the ashes set in concrete and dumped in the Marianas Trench. 

And then we should never speak of this subject again. 

Why?
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Jesse
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« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2019, 10:43:40 PM »

Why?

Yeah. Like it or not, it's a topic of discussion related to the team and we've all been very respectful to each other given how controversial the topic is.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2019, 12:00:04 PM »

Why?

Well, the rest of the league (cough cough Ridersfans) won't forget it until we true blue fans forget it.  It's going to take months / years.  Might as well start the process now.  No one talks about Banks' banned substance use, that's because no one talks about it!  See how that works?

I don't think there's been any new info or insight.  Booch posted all of this stuff before for those who read all of these threads.  Everyone has their opinion, and it's unlikely to change now.  I'm not telling anyone what to do: I don't want to ban any debate.  But right now I think it's only feeding our enemies.

If AH gets his testing result and wants to share new info, then re-open the discussion.  If there's never any further news on this topic, I hope (really hope!) we aren't still talking about this 1 year from now.  Andrew himself in various GC-weekend pressers has said outright he hopes it'll be dropped.  Andrew deserves us respecting his wishes.
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booch
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« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2019, 01:20:17 PM »

well...fact of the matter our guy got a grey cup ring...MOC..and MOP in the cup, and for all who really matter (winnipeg fans) we could all give a rats arse what others think, and I am sure he doesn't either,nor do especially all his boys in the locker room with him...so ha ha ha to the haters...Vindicated whether they like it or not as he performed at highest level when obviously not using anything....the end!
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« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2019, 02:19:25 PM »

A trace amount of some archaic substance had no effect whatsoever on his 2019 campaign from a production standpoint - he came back from his suspension and was no worse off. In fact, one could make the argument he was even more determined to prove all the doubters and critics wrong. His Grey Cup performance was one for the ages and nobody can take that away from him. He was punished for his error and anyone trying to diminish what he did this past season, either before or after the incident, is just being petty.

But petty is what's to be expected by salty losers who can't chirp with "1990" or "drought" against this team anymore.

Vindicated is a perfect descriptor.
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« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2019, 04:10:51 PM »

A trace amount of some archaic substance had no effect whatsoever on his 2019 campaign from a production standpoint - he came back from his suspension and was no worse off. In fact, one could make the argument he was even more determined to prove all the doubters and critics wrong. His Grey Cup performance was one for the ages and nobody can take that away from him. He was punished for his error and anyone trying to diminish what he did this past season, either before or after the incident, is just being petty.

But petty is what's to be expected by salty losers who can't chirp with "1990" or "drought" against this team anymore.

Vindicated is a perfect descriptor.

+1. Well said.
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107th Grey Cup champs and WE ARE LIT
blue_gold_84
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GC107 Champions!


« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2019, 04:19:06 PM »

+1. Well said.

Thanks. Smiley

You know what, though? Scratch vindicated. I'd like to coin the term "windicated" instead. Much more apropos in this case.
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#forthew
#gotthew

No drought about it.
Still can't fix stupid. And you apparently can't quarantine, it either.
GOLDMEMBER
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R.I.P. BLUE BONGER


« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2019, 05:14:49 PM »

It saddens me this thread is remaining near the top of this forum. BS
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I LOSHT MY MEMBER IN AN UNFORTUNATE SHMELTING ACCSHIDENT!
trapper
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« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2019, 05:27:55 PM »

We still talking about this  Grin

Harris was at best completely irresponsible and reckless with his "supplements"....at worse he was doping to get an edge.  Either way, I still believe he shouldn't have been entitled to any season awards which he didn't get.  (I don't think he should have been eligible for any allstar nods either).

But after he was found positive and had his suspension I believe he was clean as no doubt the league would be testing him like crazy.  Anything accomplished after that is 100% deserved...including those two outstanding grey cup awards.

He'll continue to be tested like crazy as anyone with a positive test should.

But I consider this closed now.  I don't know anyone talking about it at all.  Few people online perhaps but nothing material.

Hope Andrew has a great Christmas celebrating his bling!
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2019, 07:33:53 PM »

This is old news and all so I'll close my commentary on this.

That being said....I'm wishing Andrew and his family and friends a merry Christmas and A happy happy new year!    You made Winnipeg and all your fans proud with your Cup Performance!!!
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Conjuring up the ghost of Leo Lewis to help lead this 2019 team to victory!!
TecnoGenius
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« Reply #71 on: December 23, 2019, 10:32:19 AM »

"We're coming home with that cup... WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Probably the best moment from the whole day.

You're now a Blue Bomber legend forever AH33!!
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Never go full Rider!
Sec223
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« Reply #72 on: December 23, 2019, 11:22:02 AM »

Guilty or not. Who gives a ****. Who got the cup ?? Cheaters on every team. Not saying he did it however.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 02:18:03 PM by ModAdmin » Logged
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