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Author Topic: a rules question  (Read 1101 times)
66 Chevelle
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« on: October 30, 2019, 05:43:36 PM »

does anyone know the reason why statistical information is kept by the league in regards to extra points conversions, other than kicks?

for example, Grant's 122 yd return for 2 pts will not show up anywhere in any stat line tracked by the league... it will be like it never happened...

the same think for pass completions, points scored, or rushing yards... not tracked... just curious if anyone knows why that it is because it's not like those things are earned...  and in Grant's case, the league does track yards for returns of missed field goals, but not PATs...
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GCn19
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2019, 05:57:30 PM »

does anyone know the reason why statistical information is kept by the league in regards to extra points conversions, other than kicks?

for example, Grant's 122 yd return for 2 pts will not show up anywhere in any stat line tracked by the league... it will be like it never happened...

the same think for pass completions, points scored, or rushing yards... not tracked... just curious if anyone knows why that it is because it's not like those things are earned...  and in Grant's case, the league does track yards for returns of missed field goals, but not PATs...

I agree. These are stats that should be tracked. As to why they aren't your guess is as good as mine.
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trapper
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2019, 06:25:17 PM »

does anyone know the reason why statistical information is kept by the league in regards to extra points conversions, other than kicks?

for example, Grant's 122 yd return for 2 pts will not show up anywhere in any stat line tracked by the league... it will be like it never happened...

the same think for pass completions, points scored, or rushing yards... not tracked... just curious if anyone knows why that it is because it's not like those things are earned...  and in Grant's case, the league does track yards for returns of missed field goals, but not PATs...

For some reason I think I recall that if a QB throws an INT on a 2-point convert it goes on his stats....bot 100% sure though.
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Stats Junkie
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2019, 07:20:10 PM »

Yards on a missed convert return are not included in the CFL stats. All other aspects of a convert are included in the official stats - passing, receiving, rushing, interceptions, fumbles, blocked kicks, sacks, tackles, TFLs, knock downs & points scored.

Prior to 2015, there were no returns of missed kicks because the ball would travel through the end zone on a rare miss.

In 2015, the scrimmage for the one-point convert was moved to the 25 yard line. Retuning a missed convert was now possible.

Unfortunately, the old CFL stats system in use at the time did not have an option to enter a missed convert return (MCR). There was also a decision made that a missed convert was NOT the same as a missed field goal and would not be scored as MFG return. For most of the 2015 season, missed convert returns simply show up as a note in the play by play.

This all changed when Brandon Banks returned a missed convert for 2 points. In the end, that return was scored as an advance which allowed the 2 points to be recorded but the yardage was left hanging.

In 2016 the CFL introduced its new stats system and there was an opportunity to add the missed convert return. I was involved in this project in the fall of 2015 when the new system was in the pre-alpha stage (early testing). I asked about the missed convert return and I was told that it would not become an official stat. I will not go into the details (let's just say it is a silly reason).

When CFL Connect was launched in 2016, the missed convert return was included as part of the system and it does show up in the play by play. Unfortunately, the decision NOT to make the MCR an official stat remains and as a result the yardage associated with a MCR is not included in any CFL stats.

Incidentally, there were some cool features that the developer had in the pre-alpha version of the stats system that never made it to the final version.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2019, 08:23:20 PM »

thanks Stat Junkie!  we can always count on you to provide information relative to the game, it's rules, and stats...

it I didn't realize that you were directly involved with the CFL and the development of some of there support systems/programs/applications/software... in a past life I developed programs/systems for my employer, it started out as 'process improvements', or enhancements, and ended up being full blown replacement systems... I had a knack for writing program specs so I got to help related sections with their systems as well... some times the 'customer' just can't get out of their own way at times, lol... so, I know what you mean when you are talking 'silly reasons' as a justification to both add or not include stuff...

thanks again, we're lucky to have someone like you as a member here...
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2019, 01:58:17 AM »

If MCR's don't count for yardage or any other stat, and I had Grant in fantasy, I'd be really miffed after the game!  No fantasy points at all for Grant on that?  Lame.  It was one of the top-3 plays of the game.

Just like I believe there should be some fantasy points for having the player of the game on your roster.
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Jockitch
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2019, 03:57:36 AM »

The league is very weak when tabulating some stats. Here's an odd one that I just can't get over.
The CFL site for stats does not show fumbles nor, of course, fumbles lost. Meanwhile the TSN site only shows fumbles & lost fumbles stats for receivers
WHAT'S with that ......... very mickey mouse.
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GCn19
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2019, 11:15:40 AM »

Yards on a missed convert return are not included in the CFL stats. All other aspects of a convert are included in the official stats - passing, receiving, rushing, interceptions, fumbles, blocked kicks, sacks, tackles, TFLs, knock downs & points scored.

Prior to 2015, there were no returns of missed kicks because the ball would travel through the end zone on a rare miss.

In 2015, the scrimmage for the one-point convert was moved to the 25 yard line. Retuning a missed convert was now possible.

Unfortunately, the old CFL stats system in use at the time did not have an option to enter a missed convert return (MCR). There was also a decision made that a missed convert was NOT the same as a missed field goal and would not be scored as MFG return. For most of the 2015 season, missed convert returns simply show up as a note in the play by play.

This all changed when Brandon Banks returned a missed convert for 2 points. In the end, that return was scored as an advance which allowed the 2 points to be recorded but the yardage was left hanging.

In 2016 the CFL introduced its new stats system and there was an opportunity to add the missed convert return. I was involved in this project in the fall of 2015 when the new system was in the pre-alpha stage (early testing). I asked about the missed convert return and I was told that it would not become an official stat. I will not go into the details (let's just say it is a silly reason).

When CFL Connect was launched in 2016, the missed convert return was included as part of the system and it does show up in the play by play. Unfortunately, the decision NOT to make the MCR an official stat remains and as a result the yardage associated with a MCR is not included in any CFL stats.

Incidentally, there were some cool features that the developer had in the pre-alpha version of the stats system that never made it to the final version.

Stats Junkie you da man. Probably the only person on any CFL forum who could have answered 66's question. Thanks for all that you do for us.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2019, 02:09:56 PM »

IIRC, Fenner returned a MCR for 2 in our first game against BC. I've never seen it happen twice in a season.
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GCn19
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2019, 02:35:57 PM »

IIRC, Fenner returned a MCR for 2 in our first game against BC. I've never seen it happen twice in a season.

I thought it was an interception but I could be wrong.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2019, 03:27:13 PM »

you know what? we'll never know now because it isn't recorded anywhere! lol...

but seriously, I seem to remember that happening as well but I can't remember if it was a miss or INT...
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GCn19
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2019, 03:43:10 PM »

you know what? we'll never know now because it isn't recorded anywhere! lol...

but seriously, I seem to remember that happening as well but I can't remember if it was a miss or INT...


Blocked convert attempt returned for a WPG 2 point.
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Stats Junkie
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2019, 03:45:11 PM »

The Fenner 2-point return was the result of a blocked kick and was treated as a fumble return. All aspects of that play are included in the CFL official stats





The league is very weak when tabulating some stats. Here's an odd one that I just can't get over.
The CFL site for stats does not show fumbles nor, of course, fumbles lost. Meanwhile the TSN site only shows fumbles & lost fumbles stats for receivers
WHAT'S with that ......... very mickey mouse.
Fumbles / Lost do show up in the team statistics which are released every week. The part of this stat block that is missing is the "Own Team Fumbles Recovered".
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@Stats_Junkie
66 Chevelle
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2019, 04:00:14 PM »

The Fenner 2-point return was the result of a blocked kick and was treated as a fumble return. All aspects of that play are included in the CFL official stats


then there's a fallacy... you have the same type of an event, a missed convert kick that results in the opposing team ending up in the end zone with the ball, but only it is only recorded and credited depending how it happens... i.e. fumble yes, missed recovery no...
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BigBomberFan
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2019, 08:32:49 PM »

Stats Junkie is the man! Always enjoy his insight, and he is like a ninja.....unexpected, quick and delivers the kill shot that you are looking for.  Wink
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