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Author Topic: Nichols or Collaros  (Read 44087 times)
blue_or_die
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« Reply #495 on: December 05, 2019, 02:01:13 AM »

Right, I forgot Evans is under contract... that means they could re-sign Masoli to starters money, as Evans will be on his ELC still... and then lose Evans next year for sure...

Could have sworn that Evans actually extended for several years at the end of last season. Possibility he is there for 2 more years under ELC. I don't expect him to get paid those peanuts though if he sees significant starters time at any point.
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BLUEBOMBER
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« Reply #496 on: December 05, 2019, 07:15:21 AM »

I think we can't go wrong with either Nichols or Collaros..  but knowing how classy O'Shea and the Bomber organization is, I think we would stick with Nichols.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #497 on: December 05, 2019, 09:16:29 AM »

Right now I think I would rather have Evan's. The kid has all the tools. Yes, we shut him down in the GC, but our D had there best game of the year.

I wouldn't.  Neither will KW.  I go back to my little study of GC winners... they are usually guys with more years in the league, and more games under their belt.  8-year Collaros vs 2-year Evans just proved it holds true!

Who here doesn't think if Masoli started the GC that it wouldn't have been way harder to win?  Masoli: 7 years.

Nope, we'll stick with Nichols (8 years), Collaros (8 years) or go after a real vet like Masoli.  That's how you maximize your chance for a repeat in 2020.  And it also means you're unlikely to win 2020 GC with Evans, Arbuckle, or Fajardo.  They might win a GC eventually, but odds are it will be later in their careers.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #498 on: December 05, 2019, 02:02:21 PM »

Tech-no. Correlation does not imply causation.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #499 on: December 06, 2019, 05:13:48 AM »

Tech-no. Correlation does not imply causation.

But it doesn't rule it out either.  That's why you need to think objectively about it, and examine the situation and facts.

1. QB is the most important position on the field (no one argues that)
2. QBs with more years will generally recognize looks and make reads better/faster, have more playoff games under their belt and thus less nerves, and have more experience being leaders of men in trying situations.

Look at Evans vs Collaros in the GC.  Evans was flustered, crying, panicking, pouting, dissing his OL, and sending up INTable floaters pretty much the whole night.  Collaros was barely fazed by anything, never seemed to have any nerves either before, during or after the game, and just played good ball.

I don't think that's because Evans sucks (he doesn't) or that Collaros is the next Flutie (he's not).  I think it's because Collaros has been there done that for 8 years, and Evans hasn't.

I can't remember what the winning QB with the least years-starting-in-CFL was (BLM at 3?), but unless you are sure you have the next BLM as your QB, I would roster a vet QB as my #1 if I had GC aspirations.  If no other QB in history could do it in their 1st or 2nd year, it's the ultimate hubris to think you'll be the historical anomaly.  Sure, a miracle could happen, but it's part of the reason KW will sign Nichols or Collaros as #1, not Strev or Arbuckle or Evans or Fajardo.  After all, football is essentially an odds game.

As further evidence, I offer you the 2020 SSK season and GC, since there's a 99.999% chance it's not Fajardo hoisting it 12 months hence.  Nope, it'll be some 4-10 year vet (probably 7-9) again, and that I would bet money on.
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #500 on: December 06, 2019, 06:01:31 AM »

But it doesn't rule it out either.  That's why you need to think objectively about it, and examine the situation and facts.

1. QB is the most important position on the field (no one argues that)
2. QBs with more years will generally recognize looks and make reads better/faster, have more playoff games under their belt and thus less nerves, and have more experience being leaders of men in trying situations.

Look at Evans vs Collaros in the GC.  Evans was flustered, crying, panicking, pouting, dissing his OL, and sending up INTable floaters pretty much the whole night.  Collaros was barely fazed by anything, never seemed to have any nerves either before, during or after the game, and just played good ball.

I don't think that's because Evans sucks (he doesn't) or that Collaros is the next Flutie (he's not).  I think it's because Collaros has been there done that for 8 years, and Evans hasn't.

I can't remember what the winning QB with the least years-starting-in-CFL was (BLM at 3?), but unless you are sure you have the next BLM as your QB, I would roster a vet QB as my #1 if I had GC aspirations.  If no other QB in history could do it in their 1st or 2nd year, it's the ultimate hubris to think you'll be the historical anomaly.  Sure, a miracle could happen, but it's part of the reason KW will sign Nichols or Collaros as #1, not Strev or Arbuckle or Evans or Fajardo.  After all, football is essentially an odds game.

As further evidence, I offer you the 2020 SSK season and GC, since there's a 99.999% chance it's not Fajardo hoisting it 12 months hence.  Nope, it'll be some 4-10 year vet (probably 7-9) again, and that I would bet money on.

i believe the Cats will be back at the Grey Cup next season and there's a good chance the Riders might as well.   If Masoli is Hamilton's #1 the odds are with him over Fjardo.   However if Evans is retained as their #1 and Masoli bolts then you'll have two relatively inexperienced QBs.   Evans with having won a final and made a Cup appearance will likely not falter as he did against the Bombers.   

I tend to agree with your rationale however we could see two  fairly inexperienced QBs playing one another in the GC.   In these type of winner take all experience often trumps youth and ability!!   It will be interesting to see where all the QBs end up come TC
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booch
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« Reply #501 on: December 06, 2019, 01:31:33 PM »

But it doesn't rule it out either.  That's why you need to think objectively about it, and examine the situation and facts.

1. QB is the most important position on the field (no one argues that)
2. QBs with more years will generally recognize looks and make reads better/faster, have more playoff games under their belt and thus less nerves, and have more experience being leaders of men in trying situations.

Look at Evans vs Collaros in the GC.  Evans was flustered, crying, panicking, pouting, dissing his OL, and sending up INTable floaters pretty much the whole night.  Collaros was barely fazed by anything, never seemed to have any nerves either before, during or after the game, and just played good ball.

I don't think that's because Evans sucks (he doesn't) or that Collaros is the next Flutie (he's not).  I think it's because Collaros has been there done that for 8 years, and Evans hasn't.

I can't remember what the winning QB with the least years-starting-in-CFL was (BLM at 3?), but unless you are sure you have the next BLM as your QB, I would roster a vet QB as my #1 if I had GC aspirations.  If no other QB in history could do it in their 1st or 2nd year, it's the ultimate hubris to think you'll be the historical anomaly.  Sure, a miracle could happen, but it's part of the reason KW will sign Nichols or Collaros as #1, not Strev or Arbuckle or Evans or Fajardo.  After all, football is essentially an odds game.

As further evidence, I offer you the 2020 SSK season and GC, since there's a 99.999% chance it's not Fajardo hoisting it 12 months hence.  Nope, it'll be some 4-10 year vet (probably 7-9) again, and that I would bet money on.


This...Evan's was totally outmatched in Grey Cup because was basically a rookie starter, saw things he never seen before, the pressure was ratcheted up and the speed was more intense...his in-experience caused him to wilt, and that was stated before the Grey Cup that it could be the Cat's undoing...I know I said that.

He coasted through the last 3rd of season against relatively easy opposition and no urgency whatsoever, and was hardly battle tested, where Winnipeg came in basically in play-off mode mind-set and playing for a real purpose probably since game 16 of regular season...
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #502 on: December 06, 2019, 01:46:53 PM »

Having a vet QB is good, but not the big reason we won the GC this year.

Our vet QB threw for 170 yards, no TD's and no Ints. Their rookie QB threw for 203 yards, 1 TD and 2 Int's.

Our defence on the other hand allowed one TD and got 7 turnovers. They were the difference makers, not the QB's.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 01:50:10 PM by TBURGESS » Logged

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booch
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« Reply #503 on: December 06, 2019, 01:56:39 PM »

Having a vet QB is good, but not the big reason we won the GC this year.

Our vet QB threw for 170 yards, no TD's and no Ints. Their rookie QB threw for 203 yards, 1 TD and 2 Int's.

Our defence on the other hand allowed one TD and got 7 turnovers. They were the difference makers, not the QB's.


You have to look at it in the way as well that our defense caused that rookie QB to make mistakes..and turn ball over...confused him..whereas a vet..may not have done that

I agree our defense was phenomenal, but part of that could be attributed to messing with a rokkie QB

Zack did what he needed to, protected the ball and was cool as a cuke...been there..done that...the value of a vet...nothing that Ham presented to him confused him, or was something he never seen been..Evan's...quite the opposite
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #504 on: December 06, 2019, 02:08:19 PM »

You have to look at it in the way as well that our defense caused that rookie QB to make mistakes..and turn ball over...confused him..whereas a vet..may not have done that

I agree our defense was phenomenal, but part of that could be attributed to messing with a rokkie QB

Zack did what he needed to, protected the ball and was cool as a cuke...been there..done that...the value of a vet...nothing that Ham presented to him confused him, or was something he never seen been..Evan's...quite the opposite
The rookie QB turned the ball over twice out of 7 turnovers. One was a tipped int on his first pass of the day. Yes, he looked confused and frustrated. No, I don't think any old vet QB would have done much better, but I do think that this experience will make Evans a better QB going forward.

Was the young QB starting his first GC game part of the reason? Sure. A big part? Debatable.
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the paw
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« Reply #505 on: December 06, 2019, 02:29:22 PM »

The rookie QB turned the ball over twice out of 7 turnovers. One was a tipped int on his first pass of the day. Yes, he looked confused and frustrated. No, I don't think any old vet QB would have done much better, but I do think that this experience will make Evans a better QB going forward.

Was the young QB starting his first GC game part of the reason? Sure. A big part? Debatable.


I think Collaros veteran experience at  QB was a good part of the reason we won the cup.  But I don't think the QB play by Evans was the reason Hamilton lost.  I don't there is a QB in the league that was going to be able to stand in there against the pressure we got from the DEs.  Especially when it was coupled with secondary schemes that took away Addison and Banks favorite routes. 
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Colton
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« Reply #506 on: December 06, 2019, 02:47:53 PM »

The rookie QB turned the ball over twice out of 7 turnovers. One was a tipped int on his first pass of the day. Yes, he looked confused and frustrated. No, I don't think any old vet QB would have done much better, but I do think that this experience will make Evans a better QB going forward.

Was the young QB starting his first GC game part of the reason? Sure. A big part? Debatable.


Only twice? Do the two fumbles not also count? He also failed to convert on one of the two 3rd and 1 stands.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #507 on: December 06, 2019, 04:23:58 PM »

Only twice? Do the two fumbles not also count? He also failed to convert on one of the two 3rd and 1 stands.
Those had more to do with our D line dominance than young QB Vs vet QB.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #508 on: December 06, 2019, 05:31:52 PM »

Having a vet QB is good, but not the big reason we won the GC this year.

Our vet QB threw for 170 yards, no TD's and no Ints. Their rookie QB threw for 203 yards, 1 TD and 2 Int's.

Our defence on the other hand allowed one TD and got 7 turnovers. They were the difference makers, not the QB's.

Put down your black or white brush for just a moment, winning football is about scoring points by hook or by crook.  The Bomber QB tandem moved Medlock within scoring range 7 times of which he converted 6, in addition to the two drives they orchestrated that lead to Harris TD's.  That accounts for 32 points of 33 they helped generate, a very well executed game on their part, supported by a D that played well beyond reasonable expectations, limiting the Ti-Cats to 12 points scored.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 05:34:54 PM by Throw Long Bannatyne » Logged
blue_or_die
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« Reply #509 on: December 06, 2019, 06:08:11 PM »

Put down your black or white brush for just a moment, winning football is about scoring points by hook or by crook.  The Bomber QB tandem moved Medlock within scoring range 7 times of which he converted 6, in addition to the two drives they orchestrated that lead to Harris TD's.  That accounts for 32 points of 33 they helped generate, a very well executed game on their part, supported by a D that played well beyond reasonable expectations, limiting the Ti-Cats to 12 points scored.

Actually (to further your point), didn?t it account for all 33 points? The offence got Medlock to the point where he was ?able? (lol) to miss an FG and grab a single.
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