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Author Topic: Nichols or Collaros  (Read 49762 times)
Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #390 on: November 29, 2019, 05:24:39 PM »

He played great, but a big part of that was teams had very little film on him with us. They did not know what he would do. Over the course of the season DC's would figure him out and it wouldn't come as easy for him. We never got one on ones earlier in the season. ZC got them all day long in the WF and GC.
Man....you are a hard case on the merits of Zach.   Film study doesn't negate Zach's scrambling ability or his superior arm strength.   The Cats had 3 games worth of film to study him plus he used to play for them not that long ago.   Part of his effectiveness was working in tandem with Strev who was magnificent and I think the combination of the two kept the Hamilton D on their heels.    That's a very winning combination as Strev made some great throws, ran the ball for several first downs and even caught a pass from Adams for a key first down.   His TD pass to Harris was also a thing of beauty.  

Of course Matt worked well with Streveler in the WSF last year but we were playing against Brandon Bridges and not Zach who had been injured.    In the final in Calgary last year Matt played poorly in the biggest game of the season and for whatever reason we didn't go to Streveler as much as against the Riders where he threw a beautiful pass for a TD and ran roughshod over them as well.  
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lenny
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« Reply #391 on: November 29, 2019, 05:25:24 PM »

Zach has always been a gunslinger and if he were to make a TC with this offence he would be even better.   Plus Collaros is actually younger than Nichols.    His mobility created offensive plays that Nichols just can't accomplish because he's not very athletic in that regard.   Zach is 6 foot and 220 and throws the ball with greater velocity and accuracy.    I admit that Matt was doing well at the beginning of the season however after Labour Day things start tightening up defensively as games become more intense as we approach the playoffs.   Zach came here and practiced with the team twice before playing the Stamps and won that game with a display of scrambling we haven't seen in decades.   That pass to Adams in the end zone was pure magic and Nicholls would have thrown it away or been sacked.   In the Grey Cup game he deftly escaped the pressure and made plays that resulted in first downs.   This is a special skill set that Matt just doesn't have....and Zach can throw on the run.   Zach is also a very smart QB and makes his reads quickly and decisively.....when you stack up each player's pros and cons Zach comes out on top.    And don't get me wrong, I'm ok with Matt as our QB albeit his style of play isn't very exciting to watch.   What Zach did for this team was nothing short of miraculous and I'm not sure why some posters on this forum think his play was just OK???

As MOS said, the story of Zach Collaros and his 4 game run with the Bombers should be written down and told over and over again!  


Agree 100%. I don't know how anyone can try to justify Nichols over Zach. Nichols was here since 2015 and he won one playoff game. We get Zach and not only does he win two playoff games in the short time here he helps win the biggest one of all the GC. That's three post-season victories. The Western final last year in Calgary by Nichols was another poor performance - 46.9% comp %, 156 yds no TDs.  Time to move on. I think Nichols is a capable QB but for many of the reasons articulated by you and others it's time to move on.

By the way, another thing to add on the offensive side of the game, is as you've noted his running and scrambling ability. They started the same time 2012, Zach's 966 yds rushing in 92 GP - Matt 617 in 114 GP. That's a significant 349 yd difference in favour of Zach in 22 games played less.

I hope Zach signs here but for many reasons I think the Argos are more than ever now convinced as to his effectiveness plus for Zach's own reasons (his wife a teacher in southern Ontario, etc.) I think he won't sign here.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 06:26:05 PM by lenny » Logged
Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #392 on: November 29, 2019, 05:28:12 PM »

Agree 100%. I don't know how anyone can try to justify Nichols over Zach. Nichols was here since 2015 and he won one playoff game. We get Zach and not only does he win two playoff games in the short time here he helps win the biggest one of all the GC. That's three post-season victories. The Western final last year in Calgary by Nichols was another poor performance - 46.9% comp %, 156 yds no TDs.  Time to move on. I think Nichols is a capable QB but for many of the reasons articulated by you and others it's time to move on.


It's hard to advocate too hard for Collaros because he's even more of an injury risk than Nichols but no one will convince me that Collaros isn't the better of the two QBs. He is.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #393 on: November 29, 2019, 05:38:25 PM »

Zach has always been a gunslinger and if he were to make a TC with this offence he would be even better.   Plus Collaros is actually younger than Nichols.    His mobility created offensive plays that Nichols just can't accomplish because he's not very athletic in that regard.   Zach is 6 foot and 220 and throws the ball with greater velocity and accuracy.    I admit that Matt was doing well at the beginning of the season however after Labour Day things start tightening up defensively as games become more intense as we approach the playoffs.   Zach came here and practiced with the team twice before playing the Stamps and won that game with a display of scrambling we haven't seen in decades.   That pass to Adams in the end zone was pure magic and Nicholls would have thrown it away or been sacked.   In the Grey Cup game he deftly escaped the pressure and made plays that resulted in first downs.   This is a special skill set that Matt just doesn't have....and Zach can throw on the run.   Zach is also a very smart QB and makes his reads quickly and decisively.....when you stack up each player's pros and cons Zach comes out on top.    And don't get me wrong, I'm ok with Matt as our QB albeit his style of play isn't very exciting to watch.   What Zach did for this team was nothing short of miraculous and I'm not sure why some posters on this forum think his play was just OK???

As MOS said, the story of Zach Collaros and his 4 game run with the Bombers should be written down and told over and over again!  


I don't think anybody is saying that but his stats are quite similar to Nichols. Posters complained when we threw for less than 200 yards.

1. WSF 11/21 52.4% 193 yards. 31 rush plays 195 yards
2. WDF. 17/25 68% 267 yards. 17 rush plays 68 yards
3. GC. 17/23 73.9% 170 yards. 28 rush plays 180 yards.

It may be that Collaros is a better QB overall. I think that's debatable. Perhaps look at his 2017 season in Hamilton and being unseated by Masoli. Look at his 2018 stats and play in Regina.

Collaros career games played in 8 seasons = 92,  62.78% completion 8/1 yard average.

Nichols career games played in 8 seasons = 114, 66.66% completion 7.7 yard average.

Comparing both, Nichols has played more games, thrown more passes, more completions, more yardage and has a higher completion % and a better TD / int ratio.

Collaros played a significant part in our Grey Cup run. He got up to speed and played well within our system. He made very few mistakes but he's not BLM or Mike Reilly either.

We'll never know whether we'd have won the Grey Cup if Nichols didn't get injured this season.

Let's be fair in the assessments and not get carried away because Collaros was at the helm in the Grey Cup. That was a complete team effort and he played his part.

OTOH we were within a last play hitting a goal post possibly going to OT in the WDF. Who knows how that would have turned out if it came to pass.

The QB always gets too much credit for a win and too much criticism for any loss.  That's a very narrow view.

If you choose to prefer Collaros I have no issue with that. Just consider that two of the best QB's in the CFL finished in 4th and 5th in the west. Team game.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 05:46:10 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #394 on: November 29, 2019, 05:39:08 PM »

Agree 100%. I don't know how anyone can try to justify Nichols over Zach. Nichols was here since 2015 and he won one playoff game. We get Zach and not only does he win two playoff games in the short time here he helps win the biggest one of all the GC. That's three post-season victories. The Western final last year in Calgary by Nichols was another poor performance - 46.9% comp %, 156 yds no TDs.  Time to move on. I think Nichols is a capable QB but for many of the reasons articulated by you and others it's time to move on.

In the Calgary WF game Matt threw the ball away on numerous occasions causing a lot of 2 and 0s.....it was a dismal performance as was our offensive game plan.   At the start of the season Matt was hot and his long ball had improved big time and we were getting explosion plays.   Then the injury and shoulder surgery ended his promising season.    It's not that I don't think Matt's a good QB yet when you stack him up against Zach....he comes out second best of the two.   Should we go into the 2020 season with Matt, which is highly probable, I will support Matt.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #395 on: November 29, 2019, 05:40:20 PM »

Fajardo, Nichols, Collaros, and Arbuckle are no Mike Reilly....and if you don't think that MR would take a big shave if he were released tomorrow you are kidding yourself. Every team got to watch the great 700-800k QB experiment unfold this season and they saw one team go from champs to chumps and the other miss the playoffs. No team will be paying a QB in that neighborhood for years to come now.

Last year Hervey and Huffer took a gamble that the CBA would bring in a bunch of extra SMS room. It didn't and now they have albatross QB contracts hanging around their necks.

The bar may no longer be $700K-$800K but I doubt it's $400K either. We'll see.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #396 on: November 29, 2019, 08:57:39 PM »

The bar may no longer be $700K-$800K but I doubt it's $400K either. We'll see.

I just don't see why a team would pay big bucks for a QB when there are so many available.

BC: Reilly
CGY: BLM
EDM: T-Harr
SSK: CoFaj
WPG: ?
HAM: Evans
TOR: ? (I'm assuming all their QBs are FAs? Even if no, they are likely to shuffle the deck)
OTT: ? (same as above)
MTL: VAJ

Notable FAs:
Nichols
Streveler
Arcuckle
Masoli
Collaros
MBT
Franklin (assuming these last 2 are FAs/released by TO)

(note I didn't even include Dom Davis or Jennings...they are done)

Streveler, MBT and Franklin are almost certainly to be signed as backups somewhere, leaving four strarting-quality QBs in the market this year. We have three teams looking for starters. Why would any team throw out a high number for one of them? For example, if Ottawa offered Masoli 400k and he scoffed, they could just turn to Arcuckle. They all are not collectively going to hold out when they all want a job. What's the economic case for a big payday in QB FA period this off-season?
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #397 on: November 29, 2019, 09:54:29 PM »

I just don't see why a team would pay big bucks for a QB when there are so many available.

BC: Reilly
CGY: BLM
EDM: T-Harr
SSK: CoFaj
WPG: ?
HAM: Evans
TOR: ? (I'm assuming all their QBs are FAs? Even if no, they are likely to shuffle the deck)
OTT: ? (same as above)
MTL: VAJ

Notable FAs:
Nichols
Streveler
Arcuckle
Masoli
Collaros
MBT
Franklin (assuming these last 2 are FAs/released by TO)

(note I didn't even include Dom Davis or Jennings...they are done)

Streveler, MBT and Franklin are almost certainly to be signed as backups somewhere, leaving four strarting-quality QBs in the market this year. We have three teams looking for starters. Why would any team throw out a high number for one of them? For example, if Ottawa offered Masoli 400k and he scoffed, they could just turn to Arcuckle. They all are not collectively going to hold out when they all want a job. What's the economic case for a big payday in QB FA period this off-season?

The QB's you listed are not of equal skill level and then there are the injury concerns. Last year Reilly, Harris and BLM were free agents and could have signed anywhere. They all signed for big $$ and that created the problem. Two top QB's changed teams. You think money didn't speak loudly on final decisions?

How is that different now with Winnipeg, Toronto and Ottawa all needing a starter to sign? Each team will place a different perceived value to them of what those QB's are worth to them.

I'll be happy if we can get one of those 4 QB's for $400K.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #398 on: November 29, 2019, 10:44:51 PM »

The QB's you listed are not of equal skill level and then there are the injury concerns. Last year Reilly, Harris and BLM were free agents and could have signed anywhere. They all signed for big $$ and that created the problem. Two top QB's changed teams. You think money didn't speak loudly on final decisions?

How is that different now with Winnipeg, Toronto and Ottawa all needing a starter to sign? Each team will place a different perceived value to them of what those QB's are worth to them.

I'll be happy if we can get one of those 4 QB's for $400K.

Actually, they kinda are, in the sense that none of them are proven, elite, top tier guys. Last year two of the best QBs the CFL has seen in a generation were FA and so literally any team, set at QB or not, would have opened their wallets for them. So BC and Calgary are bidding against the rest of the league here. Not the case this year.

The injury concerns, if anything, are actually the great equalizer between this year's crop of FA Qbs.

So, again, if Ottawa really wants e.g. Masoli and he thinks he's worth 550k and Ottawa would rather spend that money elsewhere, they can take any of the others for less for only a marginal drop off in play.

Unless all teams value one far more than the others, driving the price up, but I don't think that's the case at all. Throw in the lessons learned about blowing your load on a single position, too.
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BigBomberFan
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« Reply #399 on: November 30, 2019, 12:07:32 AM »

I just don't see why a team would pay big bucks for a QB when there are so many available.

BC: Reilly
CGY: BLM
EDM: T-Harr
SSK: CoFaj
WPG: ?
HAM: Evans
TOR: ? (I'm assuming all their QBs are FAs? Even if no, they are likely to shuffle the deck)
OTT: ? (same as above)
MTL: VAJ

Notable FAs:
Nichols
Streveler
Arcuckle
Masoli
Collaros
MBT
Franklin (assuming these last 2 are FAs/released by TO)

(note I didn't even include Dom Davis or Jennings...they are done)

Streveler, MBT and Franklin are almost certainly to be signed as backups somewhere, leaving four strarting-quality QBs in the market this year. We have three teams looking for starters. Why would any team throw out a high number for one of them? For example, if Ottawa offered Masoli 400k and he scoffed, they could just turn to Arcuckle. They all are not collectively going to hold out when they all want a job. What's the economic case for a big payday in QB FA period this off-season?

Some great points. And overspending--especially considering the amount of injuries at QB this season--seems to be a bad idea, but I guess it depends on how much certain teams want certain guys and then the bar gets set from there.

Pretty much all teams could agree though, that 700-800K on a QB in the CFL is a bad idea. BC just didn't have enough money left to sign a good enough team to put on the field around Reilly.
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blue_gold_84
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GC107 Champions!


« Reply #400 on: November 30, 2019, 03:19:07 PM »

I don't think anybody is saying that but his stats are quite similar to Nichols. Posters complained when we threw for less than 200 yards.

1. WSF 11/21 52.4% 193 yards. 31 rush plays 195 yards
2. WDF. 17/25 68% 267 yards. 17 rush plays 68 yards
3. GC. 17/23 73.9% 170 yards. 28 rush plays 180 yards.

It may be that Collaros is a better QB overall. I think that's debatable. Perhaps look at his 2017 season in Hamilton and being unseated by Masoli. Look at his 2018 stats and play in Regina.

Collaros career games played in 8 seasons = 92,  62.78% completion 8/1 yard average.

Nichols career games played in 8 seasons = 114, 66.66% completion 7.7 yard average.

Comparing both, Nichols has played more games, thrown more passes, more completions, more yardage and has a higher completion % and a better TD / int ratio.

Collaros played a significant part in our Grey Cup run. He got up to speed and played well within our system. He made very few mistakes but he's not BLM or Mike Reilly either.

We'll never know whether we'd have won the Grey Cup if Nichols didn't get injured this season.

Let's be fair in the assessments and not get carried away because Collaros was at the helm in the Grey Cup. That was a complete team effort and he played his part.

OTOH we were within a last play hitting a goal post possibly going to OT in the WDF. Who knows how that would have turned out if it came to pass.

The QB always gets too much credit for a win and too much criticism for any loss.  That's a very narrow view.

If you choose to prefer Collaros I have no issue with that. Just consider that two of the best QB's in the CFL finished in 4th and 5th in the west. Team game.

Exactly. It's a team game, especially come November. Let's be honest: elite level QBing and monster stats didn't win the Grey Cup.

Even when the numbers demonstrate the difference being negligible, the usual suspects gotta resort to the same tactics and feeble arguments. The cognitive dissonance in this thread is embarrassing.
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BBRT
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If winning isn't everything,why do they keep score


« Reply #401 on: November 30, 2019, 03:24:40 PM »

Exactly. It's a team game, especially come November. Let's be honest: elite level QBing and monster stats didn't win the Grey Cup.

Even when the numbers demonstrate the difference being negligible, the usual suspects gotta resort to the same tactics and feeble arguments. The cognitive dissonance in this thread is embarrassing.

" cognitive dissonance" ! Wow I had to look that one up! My degree was in finance where we abound in that aspect! Smiley - I have no idea which way the Bombers will go in 2020 and who will be available to lead the charge. Hopefully by end of Q1 2020 we will know!
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the paw
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« Reply #402 on: November 30, 2019, 03:44:55 PM »

Exactly. It's a team game, especially come November. Let's be honest: elite level QBing and monster stats didn't win the Grey Cup.

Even when the numbers demonstrate the difference being negligible, the usual suspects gotta resort to the same tactics and feeble arguments. The cognitive dissonance in this thread is embarrassing.

I think the term elite gets way too much weight in these discussions.  If we agree, for sake of argument, that only BLM, Reilly and Harris are elite, there is a next tier of quality that we can call bona fide starters.

I would argue that you can't win cups or even compete on a sustained basis without a QB at this level.  Nichols, Collaros, Masoli have been at this level for several years.  Adams, Fajardo and Evans IMHO reached that level this year.

Streveler and Arbuckle haven't established themselves at this level, although Arbuckle looks good.  But Franklins falling value is testimony to the wisdom of a little caution with Arbuckle.  Bethel-Thompson is in the close-but-no-cigar category..

I think there are enough quality starters to go around, but once you factor in injury history, it gets trickier.
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Cool Spot
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« Reply #403 on: November 30, 2019, 04:18:27 PM »

One of the big risk factors for Nichols is his injury - his shoulder injury to his throwing arm. As a QB in a passing league, hurting your throwing arm is going to add a significant amount of risk.

Maybe I am misremembering, but Khari Jones back in the day suffered a shoulder injury, and while he was good when he came back, he was never quite at the same level as before he hurt that shoulder. While injury rehabilitation is different now than it was back then, going with Nichols should give the Bombers a moment of pause.
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Ducky
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« Reply #404 on: November 30, 2019, 04:20:07 PM »

Big unknown is which teams will pursue Streveler.  Got to think all teams noticed the impact he can make and ALL teams in the league need a #2 guy.
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