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Author Topic: Nichols or Collaros  (Read 49776 times)
Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #405 on: November 30, 2019, 04:44:03 PM »

Big unknown is which teams will pursue Streveler.  Got to think all teams noticed the impact he can make and ALL teams in the league need a #2 guy.
He constantly referred to Winnipeg as being his home now so unless the Bombers really make his a bad offer he stays!  I'd put $$ on it!
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #406 on: November 30, 2019, 05:25:54 PM »

One of the big risk factors for Nichols is his injury - his shoulder injury to his throwing arm. As a QB in a passing league, hurting your throwing arm is going to add a significant amount of risk.

Maybe I am misremembering, but Khari Jones back in the day suffered a shoulder injury, and while he was good when he came back, he was never quite at the same level as before he hurt that shoulder. While injury rehabilitation is different now than it was back then, going with Nichols should give the Bombers a moment of pause.

True enough but we only know he had an injury requiring surgery. We don't know how serious it will be long term. It may be a factor that the team needs to seriously assess with their doctors.

At the very least I'd be hesitant on a big up front early payment. Any possible contract needs to be based on games played. If Collaros is the one offered a contract something similar would need to be in place to mitigate risk.

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #407 on: November 30, 2019, 05:28:54 PM »

He constantly referred to Winnipeg as being his home now so unless the Bombers really make his a bad offer he stays!  I'd put $$ on it!

Winnipeg is the only team that runs that much. Streveler suits our game plan style with A. Harris, Demski etc.

Not every other team has the same quality of OL and starting RB to frustrate / confuse defenses.

I think Streveler would be less effective on most other teams that don't have those other factors in play.

That's not to suggest teams might not show interest but I'm guessing he stays in Winnipeg.
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Blue In Edmonton
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« Reply #408 on: November 30, 2019, 05:33:42 PM »

I don't think that teams will look to spend a lot of money on someone else's backup QB to come in to be their backup QB. Teams are more likely to try to find their own Streveler if they're looking at running that kind of package.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #409 on: November 30, 2019, 06:42:24 PM »

I think the term elite gets way too much weight in these discussions.

Perhaps. But elite level QBing is not a requirement to be a contender or a champion. This 2019 team got efficient, competent QBing, relying heavily on the run thanks to the best tailback in the CFL, a mostly elite level defense (but especially elite for the majority of the three playoff games), and strong ST play.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #410 on: November 30, 2019, 07:19:31 PM »

One of the big risk factors for Nichols is his injury - his shoulder injury to his throwing arm. As a QB in a passing league, hurting your throwing arm is going to add a significant amount of risk.

Maybe I am misremembering, but Khari Jones back in the day suffered a shoulder injury, and while he was good when he came back, he was never quite at the same level as before he hurt that shoulder. While injury rehabilitation is different now than it was back then, going with Nichols should give the Bombers a moment of pause.

It doesn't sound like it is a career ender, how many pitchers get Tommy John surgery, in their pitching arm... and come back better?  This will be a year off for Nichols to heal all over, not just the arm.  If he rehabs well, not sure there is any reason to question his ability to continue, and lots of reason to be optomistic that he excels.

Collaros seems to have benefitted from his time off to recuperate...

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GOLDMEMBER
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« Reply #411 on: November 30, 2019, 07:26:23 PM »

At the family day event today I said to Strev we want you back! And he said so do I. I?d like him back but not as our starter out of the shoot.
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dd
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« Reply #412 on: November 30, 2019, 08:59:35 PM »

I don't think anybody is saying that but his stats are quite similar to Nichols. Posters complained when we threw for less than 200 yards.

1. WSF 11/21 52.4% 193 yards. 31 rush plays 195 yards
2. WDF. 17/25 68% 267 yards. 17 rush plays 68 yards
3. GC. 17/23 73.9% 170 yards. 28 rush plays 180 yards.

It may be that Collaros is a better QB overall. I think that's debatable. Perhaps look at his 2017 season in Hamilton and being unseated by Masoli. Look at his 2018 stats and play in Regina.

Collaros career games played in 8 seasons = 92,  62.78% completion 8/1 yard average.

Nichols career games played in 8 seasons = 114, 66.66% completion 7.7 yard average.

Comparing both, Nichols has played more games, thrown more passes, more completions, more yardage and has a higher completion % and a better TD / int ratio.

Collaros played a significant part in our Grey Cup run. He got up to speed and played well within our system. He made very few mistakes but he's not BLM or Mike Reilly either.

We'll never know whether we'd have won the Grey Cup if Nichols didn't get injured this season.

Let's be fair in the assessments and not get carried away because Collaros was at the helm in the Grey Cup. That was a complete team effort and he played his part.

OTOH we were within a last play hitting a goal post possibly going to OT in the WDF. Who knows how that would have turned out if it came to pass.

The QB always gets too much credit for a win and too much criticism for any loss.  That's a very narrow view.

If you choose to prefer Collaros I have no issue with that. Just consider that two of the best QB's in the CFL finished in 4th and 5th in the west. Team game.
Here s the only stay real Ent

Grey cup wins as a starter

Collaros 1
Nichols 0, appearances 0
Masoli 0, appearances 0
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In Motion
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« Reply #413 on: December 01, 2019, 01:34:59 PM »

I love Collaros' scrambling ability and accurate long ball throws. Does he want to stay here though?

I love Streveler and think we need to keep him.

I like Nicholls a fair bit too, and think we can win another Cup with him as our #1 too.

Football players have short careers, and I don't blame them if they go for the money over loyalty
to the club or city. They haven't been Bomber fans all their lives as we've been.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #414 on: December 02, 2019, 09:48:10 AM »

I've read all the posts and just want to add what I think is the solution to the Nichols vs Collaros debate:

Nichols and Collaros (2019 Collaros) are extremely similar QBs.  That is why you could virtually plug and play either into Lapo's O and the end result would be very similar.  The dream team of WPG QBs in 2020 would be Nichols/Collaros/Strev, if only Ambrosie would ditch the 2 QB idea.  Sure, it would never happen because of SMS, but it would be ideal because you could lose Nichols or Collaros and continue on like nothing happened.

I've watched a ton of ball with Nichols, and have watched every Zach game (in any jersey color), and studied Zach's 4 WPG games, and I'd agree Zach has the edge.  But that edge is extremely slight.  It's so slight that I truly believe Nichols would have won this GC had he never been Lemonized.  And I'm a huge, huge Nichols fan, so to admit Zach is better is difficult.  The solution to the debate is to realize there's not really a "clearly better" QB, it's to admit they are more similar than different.

Here's the thing, though: the award of "most likely to not make it through the season" definitely goes to Zach.  No one worried about Nichols getting a season-ender at all this year, or last.  Yet every time Zach stepped on the field since 2017, every CFL fan in Canada wondered if that was the day Zach's career would be ended.

That risk is what tips the balance in favor of signing Nichols/Strev for 2020 and letting Zach pursue other opportunities.  I love Zach for what he did for us, am eternally grateful, and apologize profusely for my pre-season comments regarding the durability of his brain and therefore his fitness as a player.  Even though I was right (on his 3rd snap of the 1st game), it's easy to forget these guys are human, and mostly just normal dudes who put their health on the line for our entertainment.  (Even if they wear green.)

Now, if Zach desperately wants to be a Bomber in 2020, he has earned the right to be considered, and maybe everyone works something out where everyone is happy.  If we can only keep one, and Zach doesn't want to go, I would let Zach have it, even though I love and would prefer Nichols.  You don't just shrug off what Zach did for us this year.  (As for the 1st round pick, it doesn't even enter into it, who cares one iota: we are stacked at NAT OL and NAT WR.)  But I think everyone agrees that Zach was always here as a rental, to have fun, maybe win a cup and vastly increase his market appeal.  As such it's virtually guaranteed Zach moves on by choice.

Heck, if Zach goes East and Nichols goes down again in 2020, we can always call up his new GM and arrange another rental trade for another GC run!  Cheesy

Finally, what do I think Zach does better than Nichols?  Slightly better deep ball accuracy, modestly better deep ball consistency, more willing to let it fly deep when he sees favorable coverage, slightly faster read and release on deep coverage, slightly better arm strength, much better escapability and mobile throwing, general coolness and looseness, more fearlessness, and a bit better pocket presence.

What's a wash between the two?  Rushing: Collaros may have better legs, but he should really never rush again for his brain's sake.  Over a (future) season I'd expect their rushing stats to be nearly identical.

Nichols strengths?  Much better short game, bit better mid game, quicker on the 3-5th reads (yes I really believe this), more conservative and will definitely throw less INTs over a season, has more fire and hunger, and, finally, he's basically married to Lapo, MOS and thus all three are nearly always on the same page.
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TrueBlue75
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« Reply #415 on: December 02, 2019, 12:04:59 PM »

I would be very surprised if the Bombers sign Collaros. Collaros and Nichols are relatively similar with Collaros getting the edge with his accuracy and escapability. Both would likely get a similar contract but with Collaros the cost is much higher due to the first round draft pick that the Bombers would have to give up. Therefore, in my opinion, Nichols will be our starter next season with Strevy as backup with an increased role.
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BigBomberFan
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« Reply #416 on: December 02, 2019, 11:29:34 PM »

I would be very surprised if the Bombers sign Collaros. Collaros and Nichols are relatively similar with Collaros getting the edge with his accuracy and escapability. Both would likely get a similar contract but with Collaros the cost is much higher due to the first round draft pick that the Bombers would have to give up. Therefore, in my opinion, Nichols will be our starter next season with Strevy as backup with an increased role.

I would tend to agree. In the past week, I thought about Collaros' likelihood of re-signing with us, and something really stood out to me......in the parade when he was in the truck instead of celebrating, it kind of was saying that he didn't want anyone to get too attached. Maybe he just doesn't like the limelight of celebrations, but it was something that I thought was.... interesting after a GC win. Nichols and Streveler being next to each other on the truck, to me, said that it's their team.
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Ridermania
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« Reply #417 on: December 03, 2019, 12:09:51 AM »

I know Streveler stated he wants to stay in Winnipeg, but how much does it depend where Lapo ends up?

Not all OC may utilize him like Lapo did.

Hope it all works out and make sure you get your Grey Cup gear for Christmas!
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Blue72
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« Reply #418 on: December 03, 2019, 04:29:36 AM »

If I was a defensive coach I would rather play against Nichols. During a game he uses Harris the most and only two receivers for a game, some guys don't even touch the ball the whole game. His 3-5 yard passes move the ball but very boring and the running back doesn't make it thru the full year. Also likes to throw the ball into the benches rather then looking for that 3-4 receiver. He seems to play like I don't want to be hit. At times it takes him one full quarter to get started and when behind hard to come back.

With Collaros, he uses "ALL" the receivers during the game and you never know if it will be a long or short throw, run play or he leaves  the pocket. I never once heard him say that a receiver was not open because he would go to another receiver.

Nichols likes to be in for the whole game but will he except a 2 QB system or if he is having a bad game will MOS pull him?
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GCn19
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« Reply #419 on: December 03, 2019, 04:41:37 AM »

Man....you are a hard case on the merits of Zach.   Film study doesn't negate Zach's scrambling ability or his superior arm strength.   The Cats had 3 games worth of film to study him plus he used to play for them not that long ago.   Part of his effectiveness was working in tandem with Strev who was magnificent and I think the combination of the two kept the Hamilton D on their heels.    That's a very winning combination as Strev made some great throws, ran the ball for several first downs and even caught a pass from Adams for a key first down.   His TD pass to Harris was also a thing of beauty.  

Of course Matt worked well with Streveler in the WSF last year but we were playing against Brandon Bridges and not Zach who had been injured.    In the final in Calgary last year Matt played poorly in the biggest game of the season and for whatever reason we didn't go to Streveler as much as against the Riders where he threw a beautiful pass for a TD and ran roughshod over them as well.  

Actually I'm not a hard case on the merits of Zach's play at all. I simply believe that his concussion history cannot be ignored.
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