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Author Topic: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.  (Read 2451 times)
blue_or_die
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« Reply #150 on: August 13, 2019, 04:54:12 PM »

That assumes a consistent velocity. Wouldn't a football slow down the farther it gets from it's release point?

Yes, but you know the tangent of the trajectory (angle), value of drag acting downward on the ball (gravity), and value of drag acting against the vector of the ball (air resistance) so you can determine a rate of velocity decrease and use that to determine a final velocity at the end of the ball's trajectory. This can all be used to solve the final variable, the distance traveled (i.e. over or under thrown).

All completely useless though, since our D pressured Arbuckle to throw a bad pass that hit the upright. No simulation needed to get that result.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #151 on: August 13, 2019, 05:16:36 PM »

Yes, but you know the tangent of the trajectory (angle), value of drag acting downward on the ball (gravity), and value of drag acting against the vector of the ball (air resistance) so you can determine a rate of velocity decrease and use that to determine a final velocity at the end of the ball's trajectory. This can all be used to solve the final variable, the distance traveled (i.e. over or under thrown).

All completely useless though, since our D pressured Arbuckle to throw a bad pass that hit the upright. No simulation needed to get that result.
My high school physics class was a long, long time ago.

Just trying to understand...

Is the drag value of a football a known number?

How much effect does changing the air resistance make. IE: How much effect did the breeze/wind have?

Seems like you should be able to calculate the height off the field when the ball goes out of bounds instead of where it lands. Would a ball that lands 5 yards out still be catchable? IE: Based on the calculated trajectory would it be higher or lower than 7 feet? Note that the receiver was far enough behind their DB that he could have stopped and jumped. In fact he would have had to if he didn't want to go out.

Can you get an accurate trajectory with only 4 data points? Seems to me the minimum you'd need is a couple before the top of the arc, the top of the arc and a couple afterwards, but like I said... I don't know the math.
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booch
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« Reply #152 on: August 13, 2019, 05:55:46 PM »

well some have explained it fairly well here...saves me the lesson plan lol

also we know what terminal velocity on earth is and rate something will fall....

Something on earth that is released in an arc will hit an apex point, and will travel back down to start elevation in basically the same path not taking into acount wind resistance...or assistance...that ball as well was wind assisted so may have traveled further

Yeah you can calculate the elevation on any point along the trajectory and as mentioned the receiver would have had to make a jumping catch to snag ball in bounds but in no variation of catch style would have been in bounds
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John T.
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« Reply #153 on: August 13, 2019, 06:00:35 PM »

I'm finding it hilarious, but in a fantastic way, that the posters here know more about physics than they do about football.
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rubanski
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« Reply #154 on: August 13, 2019, 06:33:46 PM »

I'm finding it hilarious, but in a fantastic way, that the posters here know more about physics than they do about football.

Why? We all know more about whatever we do for a living than we do about football.
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GCn18
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« Reply #155 on: August 13, 2019, 06:37:16 PM »

I'm finding it hilarious, but in a fantastic way, that the posters here know more about physics than they do about football.

Nope. Not true. My understanding of physics is pretty basic.
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booch
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« Reply #156 on: August 13, 2019, 06:52:45 PM »

I'm finding it hilarious, but in a fantastic way, that the posters here know more about physics than they do about football.
I know both  Smiley and credit football for enabling me to be that way hahaha
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #157 on: August 13, 2019, 06:59:45 PM »

well some have explained it fairly well here...saves me the lesson plan lol

also we know what terminal velocity on earth is and rate something will fall....

Something on earth that is released in an arc will hit an apex point, and will travel back down to start elevation in basically the same path not taking into acount wind resistance...or assistance...that ball as well was wind assisted so may have traveled further

Yeah you can calculate the elevation on any point along the trajectory and as mentioned the receiver would have had to make a jumping catch to snag ball in bounds but in no variation of catch style would have been in bounds

I'm not sure why I'm getting involved in his conversation but was the ball still ascending when it hit the upright or was it already on it's way down?
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booch
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« Reply #158 on: August 13, 2019, 07:03:55 PM »

I'm not sure why I'm getting involved in his conversation but was the ball still ascending when it hit the upright or was it already on it's way down?

Thanks for attending class hahaha...It looked like it as just at or about to hit it's apex when it clanged off the post
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #159 on: August 14, 2019, 04:05:04 AM »

Let's hope that we get lucky this week too and none of our defensive players die from aneurysms... That would suck...

Don't jinx it!  You jinxed it!  If there are on-field aneurysms I'm holding you two personally responsible!

I'm lucky because I'm not going to click on this thread again...

Yes you will!  You know it!  See!  You're reading this now, aren't you!

Is the drag value of a football a known number?

You could just take another pass from the game around the same time in the same direction, from throw till striking something, and calculate the drag/wind value to apply to the pass in question.

Something on earth that is released in an arc will hit an apex point, and will travel back down to start elevation in basically the same path not taking into acount wind resistance...or assistance...that ball as well was wind assisted so may have traveled further

That ball was going against the wind.  They were throwing N (left on TV) and the wind was NW that night.  That's why Medlock had a good chance on that 55 yarder to the S.

So, to be fair, the ball, which my initial impression/instinct of was "overthrow", could have dropped a bit sooner because of the wind.  By that time in the game, though, the wind was dying down compared to 1st Q.

I'm not sure why I'm getting involved in his conversation but was the ball still ascending when it hit the upright or was it already on it's way down?

It had just started turning down.  I checked that out in freeze frame a few times.  Maybe 1-2 yards from its apex.

And, as others (and I have said), the WR was going too fast and too close to OOB.  Ball seemed thrown late.  I don't think there's any way he stops and highpoints it.  As I said before, live I didn't know it hit the post and was looking for the ball in the stands, as that's where I thought it'd end up.  That post cheated some lucky drunk fan out of a souvenir ball!!
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gordo
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« Reply #160 on: August 14, 2019, 05:58:23 AM »

Yes, but you know the tangent of the trajectory (angle), value of drag acting downward on the ball (gravity), and value of drag acting against the vector of the ball (air resistance) so you can determine a rate of velocity decrease and use that to determine a final velocity at the end of the ball's trajectory. This can all be used to solve the final variable, the distance traveled (i.e. over or under thrown).

All completely useless though, since our D pressured Arbuckle to throw a bad pass that hit the upright. No simulation needed to get that result.

Mr Burgess made a very good point. The problem is you do not know the initial velocity of the ball. Makes a huge difference on your analysis and outcome. In my opinion your physics hit the upright.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #161 on: August 14, 2019, 10:22:53 AM »

Mr Burgess made a very good point. The problem is you do not know the initial velocity of the ball. Makes a huge difference on your analysis and outcome. In my opinion your physics hit the upright.

Yes you do!  You can go frame by frame.  Each frame on NTSC is 1/30 of a second.  Just measure how much the ball travels over X frames (whatever X is most convenient).  Adjust for the vertical speed too if you want to be pedantic.  All measurable because you have the hash marks and you know the height of an official CFL goalpost.

But forget all that -- unless someone wants to do all the calculations (not me!)... everyone just eyeball it and admit what your first reaction to that throw was (especially if you were at IGF in a decent location to see the trajectory).  It feels overthrown.  If it was going to be caught, it would have to be a remarkable catch.

And wasn't it  S I N D A N I  back there?  If so... seriously doubt he makes that circus catch.
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John T.
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« Reply #162 on: August 14, 2019, 12:51:10 PM »

Nope. Not true. My understanding of physics is pretty basic.

And yet, our pretty basic understanding of physics is still higher than our pretty poor understanding of football...all of us...let's be honest.
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GCn18
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« Reply #163 on: August 14, 2019, 12:57:33 PM »

And yet, our pretty basic understanding of physics is still higher than our pretty poor understanding of football...all of us...let's be honest.

I'll be honest. Nope.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #164 on: August 16, 2019, 06:45:55 AM »

Sorry to bring up this goal post pass again... but 1Q10:15 in the BC@WPG game tonight... Nichols throws a very similar ball to Demski for the TD.  This pass is like 5 yards lower when it crosses the GP, and Demski, at the back of the EZ with speed, still has to jump for it, with speed, and toe drag to get the TD.  Further hinting the CGY GP hit ball would have been overthrown.

To be fair, the Nichols toss is from the 12 (not the 25 or whatever), and it hits its apex about 2 yards into the EZ (not about 2y before the EZ posts), and the initial velocity wouldn't be nearly as much.  But when I saw it on TSN I thought it was similar enough to compare.  And it was the exact same EZ and uprights both times!

P.S. Great toe drag by Demski: that was a really gorgeous play by both MN and ND.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 06:47:54 AM by TecnoGenius » Logged
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