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Author Topic: Clock at the end of the half...  (Read 1322 times)
TBURGESS
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2019, 03:30:56 PM »

No need for that, just give a preliminary signal.

If it was his hand that was down, then he's not down.
You're right. Hand down isn't down. My bad. Knee down in bounds = clock runs. OOB = Clock stops.

Has anyone looked to see if the signal was given or not?
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2019, 06:21:54 AM »

The team shouldn't 'think the clock is stopped'. They should know. Watch the ref and see if he rotates his arm or not (I can't remember if he did or if it's on TV). Rotating the arm signifies the clock keeps running.

Yes, they should watch the ref, but if Harris comes back and indicates he was OOB, our guys might have a brain fart and not pay attention to the game clock.  That must be what happened.

Speaking of ref signals: well, there's another aspect.  I'm pretty sure the line judge (or whatever that guy OOB is called) has a usual procedure of immediately signalling (after 3 min warning) whether the carrier was OOB or in bounds when DBC.  They have some way to indicate to the head ref and/or timing table what the deal is.  I'm sure I've seen them do it.

If that's the only way it works then that's a flaw in the conduct of the game that needs to be changed. Both teams should be informed definitively if it's a whistle in or on the snap clock start for the next play. This should be done immediately after the previous play ends.

Not a bad idea, but football has lived without it forever.  How about on the play clock they have a little extra light somewhere in the corner that is green when the game clock will run on whistle, and red when the game clock will only run after the snap?  That should be easy to implement.  However, I don't see anyone bothering to change 100 years of tradition.  And to be honest, it's rarely a problem, at least not for WPG.

No need for that, just give a preliminary signal.

If it was his hand that was down, then he's not down.

Jeez BombSquad you are right!  Brain fart on my end here!  Hand doesn't matter for DBC!  That changes everything.

I rewatched and I can't tell if his hand or knee hit first, but I can tell nearly 100% for sure that his knee touches before his elbow gets near the ground.  And... I'm also pretty sure when his elbow hits, it's on the white line!!  There is no way that clock should be running.  Line judge blew it big time, and so did MOS for not making a fuss, as coaches do over incorrect clocks all the time!

You're right. Hand down isn't down. My bad. Knee down in bounds = clock runs. OOB = Clock stops.

Has anyone looked to see if the signal was given or not?

They cut to a ton of replays and celebrations / crowd shots / Harris reach 8k milestone, etc.  Not much shown on TSN.

Here's what I can see:

1. Live play shot: line judge running in front of Harris, half off screen.  Harris goes down and line judge keeps running but he puts his left arm up and palm towards the field.  He's far enough away I don't think he's trying to protect himself.  That could be the signal for "DBC in bounds".  He's only seen for 1 second; you wouldn't notice it unless you frame-by-framed.

2. After crowd shot they show Harris getting butt-smacked by an OL, line judge is standing behind them with his left arm stretched out to the side and his thumb up.  That's a signal for sure.  Maybe that also means "DBC in bounds"?

3. They replay from EZ, you can see that line judge a bit better at a different angle but same timeframe as #1.  Left arm is going up, palm towards the field.  He seems to be looking at another line judge who's running down the rail OOB behind the play.

When we next cut to live action, 15s is on the clock.  There is no view of any refs other than the above.  No view of the blow-in ref (to see whether his arm is circling).  Also, with the replay noise and cheering, I hear no blow-in whistle at all on TSN.

Ball snaps at 10s on game clock.  In that 5s since the cut to live action, neither Nichols nor Harris look rushed or worried or at all in tempo O.  They for sure believe that the clock is stopped.

Then they show the 8k Harris leaderboard for many seconds.  Next shots is MOS explaining to Harris, and Nichols says some expletives beside them.  No one is happy or has any idea how that happened.

We're very lucky this wasn't some game-defining moment in some critical game.  Refs screwed us over darn good on this one.  And no one on our team was paying attention to chirp about it.  They for sure could have gotten the refs to correct it, without using a challenge.  We see that all the time.  EITS would have checked it.  TSN could have given us more angles.

MOS blew it too as I just checked and we had all our timeouts in hand.  If MOS thought that clock was running he would have called TO.  We didn't call a TO or challenge the entire game until 00:38 in the 4th Q.

MOS needs to complain to the CFL.  Someone needs to text CJOB on Monday.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2019, 01:08:11 PM »

Going by Techno's description.

As soon as the knee touches the ground he's down. If that's in bounds the clock continues.

If Harris indicated he was OOB and he wasn't, that's his mistake, not the refs.

It doesn't sound like the refs screwed us. It sounds like we assumed instead of checking if the refs called in or out of bounds.

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bunker
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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2019, 02:09:26 AM »

Going by Techno's description.

As soon as the knee touches the ground he's down. If that's in bounds the clock continues.

If Harris indicated he was OOB and he wasn't, that's his mistake, not the refs.

It doesn't sound like the refs screwed us. It sounds like we assumed instead of checking if the refs called in or out of bounds.


On the coaches show, O'Shea said he feels the ref made a mistake, that Harris was out of bounds on his long run at the end of the half, and the clock should have stopped. I don't think the refs intentionally screwed us, but if you watch it again, they clearly made a mistake.
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dd
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« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2019, 03:02:22 AM »

Re-in bounds or  out of bounds mechanic- at the completion of the play, and inside 3 minute warning, all plays stop the clock, the Line judge blows his whistle, waves his arms above his head crossing them, this stopping the clock. if the ball is in bounds, he points to the ground, indicating ball was in bounds and clock starts as soon as the ball has been spotted by the Umpire; if ball was fun out of bounds, line judge waves his hand to kill the clock and facing the referee, points both thumbs over his shoulder indicating the ball was out of vounds, whereby the clock doesn?t snap until the snap of the ball
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2019, 06:19:38 AM »

Going by Techno's description.

As soon as the knee touches the ground he's down. If that's in bounds the clock continues.

His knee 100% first touches on the line, like 2 feet in.  Not even iffy, and no way a ref misses that.  Refs must have thought his hand touched in bounds and forgot hands don't count (just like half of us did before remembering).

On the coaches show, O'Shea said he feels the ref made a mistake, that Harris was out of bounds on his long run at the end of the half, and the clock should have stopped. I don't think the refs intentionally screwed us, but if you watch it again, they clearly made a mistake.

Yes, I'm so glad MOS go the question, and he spent a decent amount of time discussing it.
https://globalnews.ca/pages/audio-vault-cjob/
July 15, 7pm, question starts at 21:45

He talks about the "forward progress stopped" (FPS) theory.  He definitively says AH was OOB on the long run we are discussing.  He said he thought the FPD theory might have applied to the 2nd, short run to the 5.  So that's what he was telling them on the sidelines, which took place after the O came off the field.  So it's starting to all make more sense now.

MOS did definitively say the clock left running was a human mistake.  He didn't address why he (or anyone else) didn't notice the mistake.  Guess he doesn't want to make himself look bad  Wink Cheesy

So I guess that answers that.

Re-in bounds or  out of bounds mechanic- at the completion of the play, and inside 3 minute warning, all plays stop the clock, the Line judge blows his whistle, waves his arms above his head crossing them, this stopping the clock. if the ball is in bounds, he points to the ground, indicating ball was in bounds and clock starts as soon as the ball has been spotted by the Umpire; if ball was fun out of bounds, line judge waves his hand to kill the clock and facing the referee, points both thumbs over his shoulder indicating the ball was out of vounds, whereby the clock doesn?t snap until the snap of the ball

Thanks for that dd!  All the hand signals: are you going from memory or you found it in the rulebook?  Ya, those are the motions I've seen on TSN all these years that I never paid a ton of attention to.

I'm trying to line up what you describe with what I documented above.  Since we only see the line judge, the only thing that looks remotely like anything you describe is that thumbs up I saw.  But I saw no arm motion.

I think the fact we didn't see the arm-waving-above-head motion, which usually occurs right away when a player goes OOB (when the judge was still on the screen), means that the judge didn't think the player was OOB.

I have one final question:
There were two officials running down the rail, OOB, with the play.  One back-pedalling ahead of the play, one about 10 yards behind.  Which is the one that would do the arm-waving spot?  Or can they both do it, depending on who is closer (or some other rule)?  Which is the "line judge"?  What's the other guy called?
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bomb squad
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« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2019, 04:14:39 PM »

OK, here we go, from the CFL Officials Handbook; After Snap - p. 7:

"a Downfield Sideline Official shall:

 In the last three minutes of a half, clearly indicate to the Referee by extending both arms in toward the field of play that the ball was dead in-bounds or by pointing back over both shoulders that the ball was ruled dead out-of-bounds.  Hold the signal for 15-20 seconds to provide the QB?s and coaches an opportunity to be made aware of the clock implications for the subsequent play."

The bolded part is actually bolded in the handbook as well. This makes sense to me, although I doubt they would do it for 15-20 seconds. The question is was this type of conduct actually followed on the plays in question? We can't tell on TV. Or do they even follow it as a normal course?  I also wonder if the coaches and qbs actually know about and watch for this.
 
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2019, 05:53:55 AM »

OK, here we go, from the CFL Officials Handbook; After Snap - p. 7:

"a Downfield Sideline Official shall:

 In the last three minutes of a half, clearly indicate to the Referee by extending both arms in toward the field of play that the ball was dead in-bounds or by pointing back over both shoulders that the ball was ruled dead out-of-bounds.  Hold the signal for 15-20 seconds to provide the QB?s and coaches an opportunity to be made aware of the clock implications for the subsequent play."

Thanks!  I definitely saw and described here the ref clearly extending an arm (other was off-screen) with a palm toward the field.  So that neatly explains that gesture, and confirms the guy called it in-bounds.

And ya, I doubt any official bothers to go by the book and hold the gesture for 15-20s!

I learned a lot in this thread.  Thanks everyone.
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