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Author Topic: Lawrence suspended...  (Read 6192 times)
Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2019, 04:00:15 PM »

Really?  Please give me an intelligent response rebutting my point. 

This is a new CBA, this is a new atmosphere of player safety, and this was an egregious violation with career ending potential, and it could have even been worse.  Lawrence is lucky Collaros may have a potential of playing again, he could have been much worse.

2 games is light in my opinion, given the CFL and CFLPA's commitment to improving player safety.  Giving a player a 2 game suspension and the ability to appeal it to 1 game or even less just does not jive with the seriousness of the situation.  I can't see how anyone can dispute that fact.

This was a late hit on a vulnerable player by a player who has a history of taking liberties in this way, but hasn't had a suspension previously.

Your response to the situation is the very reason rules and a process are put in place to follow, so that aggrieved individuals do not get overly emotional and decide to lynch the perpetrator without trial to obtain their version of justice.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 04:15:30 PM by Throw Long Bannatyne » Logged
theaardvark
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« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2019, 04:20:43 PM »

Your response to the situation is the very reason rules and a process are put in place to follow, so that aggrieved individuals do not get overly emotional and decide to lynch the perpetrator without trial to obtain their version of justice.

Just because you have the right to appeal does not mean you have to exercise it.  Sure, this is a precedent setting penalty, in a new climate of player safety.  I do not think it is unreasonable.  Upholding it says player safety is paramount.  Setting it aside or reducing it, well...
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rubanski
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« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2019, 04:22:45 PM »

Yes.  He has a right to appeal.  But why is he appealing?  Was the penalty undeserved?  Too harsh?  Unreasonable?  This is a new era, a new CBA, and a new commitment to player safety.  The CFLPA is conflicted in this as they fought for this CBA on the idea of improving player safety, which this infraction is a blatant abuse of, and in total contravention of the entire platform the CFLPA stood on in making this CBA.  This CBA was not about money, not about the right to make a living, but all about the players safety, and the league protecting those players with spotters, independent doctors, etc.

My point is that invoking his "due process" means that he does not believe he did something worthy of this suspension.  He is not contrite and remorseful, and that is the whole issue.  He portrayed himself as such at the time of the incident, and after the game, and his 2 game suspension was based on that.  To appeal, he has to take the stand that what he did wasn't that wrong, and the penalty was unreasonable (although we do not have a precedent *under the current CBA and player safety commitment*.  This suspension sets the tone and precedent.  The CFLPA should have counseled Lawrence to sit down and shut up for the good of the CFLPA and the league.  The team should have counseled him the same. 

If he gets a reduction, then the CFLPA is complicit in undermining player safety.  The league won't be able to give out suspensions of 2 games or longer if he wins this appeal, precedent will have been set.  It is important for player safety that this gets upheld.  And yes, an appeal, where there is now information, should be able to yield an increased penalty, show me where it says it can't.  THAT would stop appeals, and show that both the CFL and CFLPA are truly committed to the players health, and not just their bank account. 

Never said Lawrence had been suspended, but he may have been had the present player safety climate been in effect.  He has a history of UR and RTP fould, and is known as a dirty player.  No one is surprised he did what he did. 

What is the basis for the appeal?  Yes, he has the right to appeal.  But what is the basis for that appeal?  Is he claiming he did nothing wrong?  Or that it was only a little bit wrong?  That he is remorseful, and won't do it again?  He knew suspension was possible, he might not have thought 2 games, but still, he knew supplemental discipline was kicking up this year. 

If he gets a reduction, everyone loses.  Player safety becomes a joke.

If it is upheld (or increased due to lack of remorse and his obvious disregard for the rules regarding player safety that he flagrantly defied), then we have a precedent that is appropriate heading forward.  If it is increased, we then stop the appeal process, except where there is an actual reason to appeal.

Yes, he has the right to appeal.  And he also has the ability to take his punishment like a man, and respect the CFLPA and CFL's efforts to improve player safety.

To summarize. Acting like a man, means taking your punishment, and ignoring your rights and privileges - whether it's fair or not. It also means, the group you pay money too, out of every single paycheck you earn, to enforce and protect your rights, should tell you to shut up and sit in the corner, and not exercise your rights.

Whether the CFLPA wants more player safety or not is utterly irrelevant to the obscene suggestion you make, that they should ignore their duty to protect SLs rights. They should refund his union dues and fold as an organization too in that event.

The appeal has nothing to do with being wrongly convicted, or phantom new information. It has to do with the authoritarian power of the Commish to dole out whatever suspension he deems fit for a crime. Subsequently, the players right to have a 3rd party look at things and determine if the punishment fit the crime.

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1chad
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« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2019, 04:29:00 PM »

To summarize. Acting like a man, means taking your punishment, and ignoring your rights and privileges - whether it's fair or not. It also means, the group you pay money too, out of every single paycheck you earn, to enforce and protect your rights, should tell you to shut up and sit in the corner, and not exercise your rights.

Whether the CFLPA wants more player safety or not is utterly irrelevant to the obscene suggestion you make, that they should ignore their duty to protect SLs rights. They should refund his union dues and fold as an organization too in that event.

The appeal has nothing to do with being wrongly convicted, or phantom new information. It has to do with the authoritarian power of the Commish to dole out whatever suspension he deems fit for a crime. Subsequently, the players right to have a 3rd party look at things and determine if the punishment fit the crime.



One of the biggest problems with this entire situation is that the new CBA is not available to anyone other than the league and the CFLPA at this time.  We do not know what language surrounds the subject of player safety, what penalties have bee agreed upon, etc.  Perhaps the CFLPA feels the suspension is excessive according to the rules they and the league had just agreed upon? As a first case under the new CBA, it will set precedent for all future disciplinary actions; fines vs suspensions, etc.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2019, 04:46:21 PM »

One of the biggest problems with this entire situation is that the new CBA is not available to anyone other than the league and the CFLPA at this time.  We do not know what language surrounds the subject of player safety, what penalties have bee agreed upon, etc.  Perhaps the CFLPA feels the suspension is excessive according to the rules they and the league had just agreed upon? As a first case under the new CBA, it will set precedent for all future disciplinary actions; fines vs suspensions, etc.

...and that should be taken into consideration for all the warriors of justice, Jeffcoat's head-shot on Bridge in the WSF was seen by some (Rider fans, not me) as intentional.  Any head-shot to a QB may well earn an immediate ejection along with a one game suspension moving forward as accidental or intentional is almost impossible to determine.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2019, 05:07:22 PM »

The CFLPA has released their rebuttal to Ambrosie's statement.


CFLPA responds to misleading statement by commissioner?s office citing sudden concern for player safety and questioning the rights of all CFL players
The Commissioner?s public attack on the process and the rights allotted to all CFL players, as mutually agreed to in the collective agreement, is both disappointing and unhelpful.

There were two players involved in a play on opening night. One player was injured and the other has since been assessed a two-game suspension. Both players have rights, and both are members of the CFL Players? Association. Our commitment to player safety must be balanced by our duty to ensure every player receives fair representation when these situations happen. Generally, players have not been treated equally and therefore unfairly by the process the Commissioner currently follows in these instances.

The Commissioner?s gratuitous attack on the rights of players is an attempt to gain a public relations advantage during a difficult situation. Just like player safety, he says the right things in public but the League under his leadership acts quite differently when it comes to implementing change.

On multiple occasions, including our recent collective negotiations, we proposed the CFL adopt a system, currently used with success in the NFL, that would introduce fair and transparent protocols for players facing supplemental discipline. The process would be more equitable for players, streamline decisions and remove the subjective and inconsistent discipline in the hands of the Commissioner. This process would also provide a binding decision.

Our proposal was rejected by the CFL leaving the CFLPA to choose between its members, one injured and the other suspended.

Clearly, there is a need for improvements to the disciplinary process. Until the League is willing to work towards a solution, the CFLPA will fight for all of its members. We will continue to advance player safety measures and at the same time represent players whose discipline is inconsistent with past practice.

Our members expect no less.

We encourage the Commissioner to use this time to get serious about player safety and have productive discussions with us that are focused on designing a fair and transparent process that will deal with on field safety.


https://cflpa.com/cflpa-cfl-statement-6-20-19/
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Jesse
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« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2019, 05:25:01 PM »

And now they're publicly fighting, which is the worst case scenario.

Bunch of children, honestly.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2019, 05:49:54 PM »

It seems to be such an easy thing to improve the process. Whether that is like the NFL model or otherwise.

Just speed up the process and avoid it being dragged out for days or weeks. Make the arbitration part of the process at the beginning within a few days instead of in the week that follows.

At worst this needs to be concluded before next weeks game.
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BLUEBOMBER
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« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2019, 06:57:13 PM »

QBs are the most important asset in the league.  CFL needs to expel all repeat offenders in the league to send a clear message that hits on QBs won't be tolerated in any form or way.
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dd
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« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2019, 08:55:32 PM »

What a sad situation. Both sides publically p*ssing on one another, trying to gain the upper hand , both look like idiots to me. All BS aside, the hit was a premeditated, totally avoidable head shot, 2 games is extremely light in this day and age, and to be bantering and blithering on about players rights blah blah blah, when a guy just suffered another serious head shot, that was totally avoidable, as were several of the ones he took before, is just totally sad. Quit b*tching about rights and process, and eliminate the **** hits by suspending the players at least 3 games for their first blatant heads shot, 6 for the next and 9 for the next. If they did this, head shots would disappear. Keep giving slaps on wrists/fines, and measely 2 game suspensions that are appealed, nothing will change except the date and time. There is nothing to appeal in this case, the guy is as guilty as sin and should sit, shut up and serve his suspension for his gutless cheapshot
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Donny C
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« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2019, 09:42:01 PM »

I do not know whom the players will side with, but I imagine the majority of fans will side with the Commissioner, and not the CFLPA.

Does that really matter to the CFLPA? I'm not sure.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2019, 07:09:01 AM »

You can't say he has a history of taking liberties. You're not backing that up with anything.
Fact Check He's never been suspended.

Never said Lawrence had been suspended, but he may have been had the present player safety climate been in effect.  He has a history of UR and RTP fould, and is known as a dirty player.  No one is surprised he did what he did. 

Aards is right about Simoni's history/reputation.  He's a line-skirting player, has been for nearly his whole time in the CFL.  Don't forget the Burris knee incident.  SL studies intently what is knicked on the other teams' players and shoots for them like they have targets painted on them.  Some would say that's savvy football that will win your team games, but it's still dirty.

When CFL fans think "dirty", SL is one of the first names that come to mind.  Like Hebert.  And a few others.

As far as appeals go, SL should not have appealed.  When 99% of the people who see that hit (the other 1% being a few HAM fans) say it's dirty, uncalled for, and should be punished severely, you accept your punishment if you're a mensch.  2 games was light and fair according to nearly everyone.

In normal society, the reason not every case is appealed is because appeals cost a bucket-load more money, and you need to have actual merit to win.  But, if the CFLPA picks up the entire tab for a player's appeal, there's no disincentive to appeal.  So of course everything will get appealed.  There needs to be some cost, some "skin in the game", for players, so they will only appeal if they staunchly feel they've been seriously wronged, and will win something of value.

In that sense, Aards is also slightly right in saying there has to be a possibility of a worse outcome if you appeal.  Of course appeals don't work that way, and they never will, but there has to be some disincentive to appealing everything in sight, and dragging every punishment out for a year.  I think you need to make it cost something (financially) to the player himself if he wants to appeal.

If SL is so certain he didn't mean it and he's sorry and he didn't hit him that hard and the 2 games is egregious, he should come out in a press conference and lay out precisely what his case is to the public.  Point it out in the video frame by frame.

If SL plays the whole year before this is resolved, a whole lot of fans are going to be angry.  If it's then reduced to 1/2 game cheque, fans are going to be livid.  Just look how riled up the WPG fans are, and this is in favor of a QB of the "most hated" team!!

I can tell you one thing, SL is never going to be hired in WPG as long as MOS is HC.
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Darwinismyhomeboy
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« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2019, 01:07:11 PM »

I want Collaris to appeal the finding as well.  That would be interesting.  Does the victim have rights here?
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theaardvark
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« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2019, 01:57:47 PM »

So, apparently 2 game suspension is the max in the CBA.  If so, then what offense would garner a larger suspension than a late hit to the head on a defenseless QB?  I can't think of any not involving a weapon...

I've been thinking of the disincentive for appeals... when a coach challenges (appeals) a call, if he is denied the appeal, he loses a time out on top of losing his ability to appeal later in the game.  Which is worse than if he did not appeal. So, yeah, there is a precedent in having a penalty for an appeal that was not won.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2019, 11:58:08 PM »

Just heard on the pre game broadcast that the arbitration will be JULY 9!!!!!!!!!!!! That's this week and 2 more weeks? They have to speed up this process to ONE week. How do they reconcile a suspension that happens late in the season?

What happens if SL is injured and lost for the balance of the season?

Too many gaps in the process.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 01:14:23 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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