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Author Topic: Lawrence suspended...  (Read 4758 times)
theaardvark
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« Reply #135 on: July 11, 2019, 02:44:26 PM »

I don't think a player's penalty should be dependent on the outcome of the action (whether the player was hurt or not hurt), but on the action itself, and what damage it could potentially cause, and whether it was avoidable, premeditated or just a football play. 

SL did not need to try to remove Collaros' head, he had ample opportunity to avoid the hit, and it was *not* a "football play".  I wouldn't say there was "intent to injure", but there was no intent not to deliver a significant blow.  His hit was premeditated.  Regardless Collaros getting knocked into next week... the hit was dangerous, unnecessary and not a part of the game.  The 2 game suspension, while without precedent, should set precedent.  Every player was put on notice that this type of action would no longer be tolerated, and that there would be consequences.

History shouldn't be part of the initial penalty, but it should definitely be part of arbitration.  Additional penalties should be assessed to repeat offenders, in addition to the penalty for the action.

2 games is a pittance, and will set a precedent for future actions.  Rolling it back to 1 game would also set a dangerous precedent, in that the league will see this result, and potentially in the future assess a 1 game penalty instead of a 2 game to start with.  Which will then be appealed... you see where this is going...

I think there should be a potential of both outcomes when you appeal, either a reduction, or an increase.  And during an appeal, past actions should be taken into account, allowing for past action to incur additional action...  giving players an incentive to not appeal if they are demonstrably a bad actor...  yet allowing those players given a truly unjust penalty who have no history to actually use an appeal for what it is for, not just a way to preserve pay.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 02:52:36 PM by theaardvark » Logged

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jeremy q public
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« Reply #136 on: July 11, 2019, 02:50:57 PM »

I don't tink a player's penalty should be dependent on the outcome of the action (whether the player was hurt or not hurt), but on the action itself, and what damage it could potentially cause, and whether it was avoidable, premeditated or just a football play. 

This. I've never understood why some leagues (NHL in particular) seem to think that the injury result of an illegal action should influence the penalty, when it comes to player safety. You're just incentivizing players to play aggressively and take the risk that the other player is ok. If you really want to eliminate risky plays, you penalize the action itself. It's very simple.
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dd
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« Reply #137 on: July 11, 2019, 02:51:41 PM »

Hardrick took an unneccesary roughness penalty not rough play. Rough play is when someone is punched or kicked or there is a calculated play to hurt someone and results in an automatic game ejection. Big difference
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rubanski
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« Reply #138 on: July 11, 2019, 03:20:56 PM »

That's not close to correct. Players taking a RP penalty are often fined. Hardrick was fined this week for a RP penalty he took for a 2 hand shot to the head the resulted in Adams TD being called back.

He was not disqualified or suspended. Fined only. Hardrick is not a dirty player but it was a stupid decision. Why he did that is between him, the league and his coaches.

Lawrence Dean ( Hamilton ) was also fined for a high hit. Not sure if he took a RP during the game.

Every game is reviewed by the league. Players may be fined after the fact and / or because of a given penalty.

If Simoni is the on field scum bag you are suggesting he is, why is it that Simoni has never been fined for on field behaviour?

Sure he's taken a bunch of those penalties in his career... according to you... (just sayin you haven't provided examples), but he's never taken one the league then fined him for.

Excluding the hit currently being discussed here, Hardrick is a "dirtier" player than Lawrence according to the rules of player safety. Are those rules perfect? Heck no, but it is how they are.

Simoni has a clean record (soon to be no longer, of course).
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 03:22:29 PM by rubanski » Logged
Blue In BC
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« Reply #139 on: July 11, 2019, 03:42:55 PM »

Hardrick took an unneccesary roughness penalty not rough play. Rough play is when someone is punched or kicked or there is a calculated play to hurt someone and results in an automatic game ejection. Big difference

Not true. Lawrence wasn't ejected for his hit on Collaros. The penalty was the 1st time we've seen the new rule increasing the penalty to a 25 yarder with out an ejection.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #140 on: July 11, 2019, 03:56:23 PM »

If Simoni is the on field scum bag you are suggesting he is, why is it that Simoni has never been fined for on field behaviour?

Sure he's taken a bunch of those penalties in his career... according to you... (just sayin you haven't provided examples), but he's never taken one the league then fined him for.

Excluding the hit currently being discussed here, Hardrick is a "dirtier" player than Lawrence according to the rules of player safety. Are those rules perfect? Heck no, but it is how they are.

Simoni has a clean record (soon to be no longer, of course).

August 21 2018. Lawrence was fined $500 twice for dress code violations. Obviously not a rough play fine but a fine for " on field ".

August 3, 2015. Lawrence fined $750 for a low hit on Henry Burris and comments made afterwards. Showed no remorse. Whether the fine was more about the hit, the comments on social media or split between both, it was the result of the on field action.

Found that in about 30 seconds on google. So two different QB's he " took out with cheap shots.

Need more. Feel free to look further. IMO he falls into a dirty player category.
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rubanski
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« Reply #141 on: July 11, 2019, 05:28:10 PM »

August 21 2018. Lawrence was fined $500 twice for dress code violations. Obviously not a rough play fine but a fine for " on field ".

August 3, 2015. Lawrence fined $750 for a low hit on Henry Burris and comments made afterwards. Showed no remorse. Whether the fine was more about the hit, the comments on social media or split between both, it was the result of the on field action.

Found that in about 30 seconds on google. So two different QB's he " took out with cheap shots.

Need more. Feel free to look further. IMO he falls into a dirty player category.

You're grasping at straws, and Sorry, you'll need to do more internet searching, because I'm not going to look for something that doesn't exist.

First, a dress code violation is not relating to player safety on field conduct. But... you sort of hinted at that.

Second, in 2015 he was not fined for a low hit, he was fined for comments made after the game.

Let me help you out:
Drew Edwards ?@scratchingpost  ? 29m29 minutes ago 
#Ticats LB @Simoni_Lawrence he?s been fined $750 by the #CFL for his post game comments after loss to #Redblacks.


Ok, so he didn't wear his socks properly and acted like a jerk when he was mad after a game. Those two things don't make him a dirty player.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #142 on: July 11, 2019, 05:37:51 PM »

You're grasping at straws, and Sorry, you'll need to do more internet searching, because I'm not going to look for something that doesn't exist.

First, a dress code violation is not relating to player safety on field conduct. But... you sort of hinted at that.

Second, in 2015 he was not fined for a low hit, he was fined for comments made after the game.

Let me help you out:
Drew Edwards ?@scratchingpost  ? 29m29 minutes ago 
#Ticats LB @Simoni_Lawrence he?s been fined $750 by the #CFL for his post game comments after loss to #Redblacks.


Ok, so he didn't wear his socks properly and acted like a jerk when he was mad after a game. Those two things don't make him a dirty player.

The low hit was the on field infraction that precipitated the fine. Like I said  how they split the fine amount between a dirty hit and a social media comment is hard to tell.

It was a dirty hit. Burris said it was a dirty and unnecessary hit.

If you think the hit itself had nothing to do with the fine or the amount of the fine, it's you grasping for straws. In any case it proves he's had more incidents of dirty hits. Which you seem to want to deny.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 05:47:18 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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rubanski
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« Reply #143 on: July 11, 2019, 06:20:55 PM »

The low hit was the on field infraction that precipitated the fine. Like I said  how they split the fine amount between a dirty hit and a social media comment is hard to tell.

It was a dirty hit. Burris said it was a dirty and unnecessary hit.

If you think the hit itself had nothing to do with the fine or the amount of the fine, it's you grasping for straws. In any case it proves he's had more incidents of dirty hits. Which you seem to want to deny.


The CFL literally said "we fined him for his post game comments". It's you who is pretending something else happened.

Maybe we can agree to disagree?

I chose to believe what the CFLs representatives told the media/public. You can chose to believe that while they "said" it was for unacceptable post game comments, it secretly (wink wink) it was about an alleged "dirty" hit that they never publicly addressed or acknowledged.

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #144 on: July 11, 2019, 07:37:10 PM »


The CFL literally said "we fined him for his post game comments". It's you who is pretending something else happened.

Maybe we can agree to disagree?

I chose to believe what the CFLs representatives told the media/public. You can chose to believe that while they "said" it was for unacceptable post game comments, it secretly (wink wink) it was about an alleged "dirty" hit that they never publicly addressed or acknowledged.



You won't seem to agree that he's had at least one other dirty hit. Whether they fined him for post game comments ONLY is debatable. On that I suppose we can agree to disagree.

I don't expect the league to say we fined him $250 for his post game comments, $250 for his dirty hit and $250 because his socks were rolled down.

Hardrick only got fined $500 for a two hand head shot to a player on the ground. You really think a social media comment in 2015 was worth $750 in comparison 2015 dollars to 2019 dollars. A reasonable person would say some or possibly even most of his fine was due to the hit.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 07:40:27 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #145 on: July 11, 2019, 07:57:09 PM »

maybe if it can't be agreed upon whether or not Lawrence is a first time offender or not, or that there is a precedent for this severe of punishment for a first time offending player, I think we can agree on the fact that the league, commish in particular, is wanting to send a message and set the stage for others in the future...

while within his rights to appeal, all one needs to do is watch the actual play again to believe that this punishment is just and appropriate... after all, it was obvious that his hit had nothing to do with his concern about stopping forward progress...
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bowlerdude
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« Reply #146 on: July 11, 2019, 08:24:51 PM »

The penalty is unjust?HuhHuh?...Yeah okay, you must be related to SL as no one else feels the suspension in unjust.

You're missing the context though.

It's not really unjust... he deserves the 2 game suspension 100%. I wouldn't have an issue if they took head shots like that even more seriously and they were punishable with more than a 2 game suspension. But... based on every previous suspension issued by the CFL, it is (unfortunately) undeniably unjust. Yeah, Lawrence is kinda known for crossing the line, but he's never been suspended, and players don't get suspended for 2 games without a previous suspension history. It's never happened.

It's not good for the league, and I still think the union gives a look that they care a lot more about suspended players than the ones injured by dirty plays. But it's never happened. So they can say hey, this is unprecedented and this probably wasn't the worst cheap shot in CFL history so you can't give us the worst punishment... and probably win.

The system's a joke, it needs to be changed, and suspensions for acts like that need to be able to stick (ideally, before the suspended player gets to play in several more games)... but as long as they want to appeal... I personally think it's tough to see that happening.

I hope I'm wrong and this suspension sticks and is a new precedent-setter but the ability of the CFL to impose supplemental discipline has been so bad for so long that I won't believe it until I see it...
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 08:33:51 PM by bowlerdude » Logged
dd
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« Reply #147 on: July 11, 2019, 08:49:39 PM »

Not true. Lawrence wasn't ejected for his hit on Collaros. The penalty was the 1st time we've seen the new rule increasing the penalty to a 25 yarder with out an ejection.
Lawrence didn?t get a rough play call, he got a Grade 2-unnecessary roughness penalty?. The difference is one is an attempt to injure and automatic game ejection was the other is just 25 yard penalty and player remains in the game.

I think Lawrence definitely should have got a RP call and I don?t see why they have a 2 tier UR call, if the dude comes in on a Ab and delivers an obviously avoidable hit to the head, he should have gotten kicked out. To me the 2 tier UR softens the stance on head shots. Just say blatent avoidable head shots are a 25 year RP call and you?re kicked out. Boom you?re done.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 08:53:58 PM by dd » Logged
66 Chevelle
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« Reply #148 on: July 11, 2019, 08:53:10 PM »

I agree with what you're saying, 100%, however...

given the mitigating circumstances, or actually the lack there of, when you watch that hit, the way he "loads up" to apply a hit to a defenseless player, a player that had already 'given himself up', plus the lateness of the hit... he needs an appropriate punishment irregardless of prior precedent... in my opinion...

now, take the above and couple that with the enactment of rules changes regarding this very thing and the conversation within the league and sport as a whole during the off season? he's lucky it was only 2 games he received...

if you want this type of behavior to stop there needs to be consequences harsh enough to actually deter the behavior... HE CHOSE to be the case study for this action by blatantly trying to hurt a defenseless player with a hit intended to do nothing more than to cause this man harm... there is no defense for the hit he put on him...
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #149 on: July 12, 2019, 10:07:08 AM »

Second, in 2015 he was not fined for a low hit, he was fined for comments made after the game.

Ask Smilin' Hank if Simoni is a dirty player... he stated so right on the air.  I believe Hank.  We all saw it.  He intended to go after Hank's bum knee the first chance he got.  And he did.  That's what Simoni does.

Everyone knew Collaros' head was jello and one whack would take him out for 6+ games.  Simoni intended to go after the big target the first chance he got.  And he did.  That's what Simoni does.  Heck, Collaros, like Hank, was calling out Simoni on it afterwards.  And Zach isn't normally a raucous player.  I believe Zach.

To be fair to Simoni, in the "old" game of football (i.e. more than a couple of years ago) doing these things was his job!  He was encouraged by everyone and taught how to decapitate QBs.  That was his job!!  Keyword here is WAS.  CFL wants QBs to hang around longer than 3 plays now, so now we have to drill it in the Simonis out there that we can't have this garbage anymore.

Chevelle is right: the main thing here is Zach was giving himself up... for like an hour before Simoni brought the hit.  Even the Burris play wasn't that egregious.  Everyone saw it on TV.  All of Canada collectively held their breath knowing it was likely Zach doesn't get back up.  There absolutely must be new precedent set that this type of crap is not tolerated.

Let's not let the TiCat coaches off the hook either: their DL/LBs are some of the nastiest buggers in the CFL.  They're coached that way.  T.Laurent is probably dirtier than Simoni.  Just ask A.Harris.  They all play a brand of football that we all used to love, but have collectively decided to say goodbye to.  So let's say goodbye to the hits, and to Simoni for two games.
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