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Author Topic: 2019 Main Training Camp  (Read 25249 times)
Blue In BC
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« Reply #225 on: June 05, 2019, 08:05:32 PM »

Look, I'm just saying Demski may as well have been drafted and developed by us. He represents the risk of "developing" a player for 2 or 3 years in this league. By the time they're useful, they have free reign to go where they want.

I also don't agree on your FA vs draft comment. FA can easily be the place to pick an all-star CDN, and the drafting is for all your B and C level CDNs. Why not do it that way?

Point is, our CDN content is solid. We draft some, we trade for some, we sign some. Who cares how we get there, it's irrelevant. I care about the end result, and a repeatable process.


Could the CDN Mafia be doing better in any of those areas? Sure. But I think they're performing above league average there.

There isn't a team in the league that routinely finds a starter out of their Round 1 and their Round 2 pick most draft years.

We've already mentioned SMS as the main part of the reason. The other is that it's not totally repeatable.

We lost 3 top Canadians. Our 2019 draft picks MIGHT turn out to be starters in 2019. Or not. We aren't even sure if the D. Jones comments by coaching will turn out to be true or whether Hecht wins the job.

So those are potential down grades. All three may not be down grades but it's too early to say no problem either.

You can't always sign a top free agent even if one is available to replace one lost in free agency.

We have optimism which is fine. We'll see.
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rubanski
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« Reply #226 on: June 05, 2019, 08:50:25 PM »

We've already mentioned SMS as the main part of the reason. The other is that it's not totally repeatable.

We lost 3 top Canadians. Our 2019 draft picks MIGHT turn out to be starters in 2019. Or not. We aren't even sure if the D. Jones comments by coaching will turn out to be true or whether Hecht wins the job.

So those are potential down grades. All three may not be down grades but it's too early to say no problem either.

You can't always sign a top free agent even if one is available to replace one lost in free agency.

We have optimism which is fine. We'll see.

It's repeatable if KW is continually doing it. He's not a 1 trick pony either.

Westerman and Harris have been our superstar CDNs in KW era, and they have been absolutely dominant for the BB. We've drafted, traded, signed and developed our way to a very good stable of CDNs year in, year out.


We'll see how things play out, but I see justifiable reason to not be concerned about the quality of our CDNs.

It's secondary and at receiver I'm most skeptical about. Nichols isn't exactly a top echelon QB either. He has some real stinky games last year. Anyone else still having Banjo Bowl nightmares?

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #227 on: June 05, 2019, 09:39:01 PM »

It's repeatable if KW is continually doing it. He's not a 1 trick pony either.

Westerman and Harris have been our superstar CDNs in KW era, and they have been absolutely dominant for the BB. We've drafted, traded, signed and developed our way to a very good stable of CDNs year in, year out.


We'll see how things play out, but I see justifiable reason to not be concerned about the quality of our CDNs.

It's secondary and at receiver I'm most skeptical about. Nichols isn't exactly a top echelon QB either. He has some real stinky games last year. Anyone else still having Banjo Bowl nightmares?



That's the point. We're replacing 3 all star Canadians. Couture and D. Jones look to be set to start and they aren't guaranteed to be successes. The next up past those 2 are either pure rookies or Hecht.

As of today you have to think our Canadian starters in 2018 were better. Whether that's true by game 6 perhaps not.

I'd argue KW hasn't been continually successful. More proven failures than proven successes.

Your point about the secondary and receivers proves you can't always rely on free agency with imports anymore than with Canadians. That's the question and I'm sure will be debated all season as we see whether we hold ground and advance ahead of our 2018 progress / results.

Reality is only the last 2 seasons in the playoffs, one playoff win in 2019.

I was optimistic last year. I'm optimistic this year, but I want to see the team meet the expectations.

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kkc60
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« Reply #228 on: June 06, 2019, 03:05:51 AM »

Look, I'm just saying Demski may as well have been drafted and developed by us. He represents the risk of "developing" a player for 2 or 3 years in this league. By the time they're useful, they have free reign to go where they want.

I also don't agree on your FA vs draft comment. FA can easily be the place to pick an all-star CDN, and the drafting is for all your B and C level CDNs. Why not do it that way?

Point is, our CDN content is solid. We draft some, we trade for some, we sign some. Who cares how we get there, it's irrelevant. I care about the end result, and a repeatable process.


Could the CDN Mafia be doing better in any of those areas? Sure. But I think they're performing above league average there.

There isn't a team in the league that routinely finds a starter out of their Round 1 and their Round 2 pick most draft years.
Sure Demski is an exception.

Why not just sign Canadian all stars? Because they don't grow on trees and teams just don't let them go.

Yeah our Canadian content is solid, no one said it wasn't. Keep in mind we have drafted 4 sure starters in 7 years and 2 of whom were first rounders. No teams are perfect but its okay to expect and wish our team drafted and developed better
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rubanski
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« Reply #229 on: June 06, 2019, 12:28:19 PM »

Sure Demski is an exception.

Why not just sign Canadian all stars? Because they don't grow on trees and teams just don't let them go.

Yeah our Canadian content is solid, no one said it wasn't. Keep in mind we have drafted 4 sure starters in 7 years and 2 of whom were first rounders. No teams are perfect but its okay to expect and wish our team drafted and developed better


I'm just asking you then, to point out who's doing a better job at it. Please use specific names and years in your examples.


Other than Jon Hufnagel, I don't think you, or any of the worriers have an example for me. To which I say, you have an unreasonable expectation.

Nobody does what you guys are saying KW should be able to do year in, year out.
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kkc60
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« Reply #230 on: June 06, 2019, 02:15:20 PM »


I'm just asking you then, to point out who's doing a better job at it. Please use specific names and years in your examples.


Other than Jon Hufnagel, I don't think you, or any of the worriers have an example for me. To which I say, you have an unreasonable expectation.

Nobody does what you guys are saying KW should be able to do year in, year out.
If you want an example ask for an example.

I'd say Ottawa, Hamilton and Calgary have consistently added starters in the first round, of course there are exceptions like Randy Colling and Karl Lavoie. Edmonton has taken more risks, aka NFL players but mid to late rounds they have added a lot of promising players.

No one expects KW to do anything "year in year out". What we are saying is our Canadian drafting and developing isn't as good as some say and that, if we want to keep having a solid corps of canadians then we gotta start drafting our own starters because signing FAs costs a lot of money, especially if they are proven Canadians
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 02:18:59 PM by kkc60 » Logged
Mike
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« Reply #231 on: June 06, 2019, 03:06:55 PM »

Our Canadian drafting and developing is just fine if you don't have the expectation of perfection, in regards to longevity of a career as a Bomber or in regards to the timeline of development lining up with the timeline of departures.

I swear some of the people around here cling to the fact that there are question marks on our roster as a reason for criticism directed at our front office. What do you expect them to do? Sign every single player to lifetime contracts the day they're drafted?

The one that really makes me chuckle is Goossen. Everyone's acting like we lost him to a rival team. The guy retired ... you can't anticipate that, yet what has our front office done? Built depth at that position over the past couple of drafts so that we can be prepared as we'll ever be for something like that. We have a competitive battle going on at our centre position with a guy we drafted and a guy we scooped up as a UDFA ... plus there's Eli to provide depth beyond that. We're  not handing the job to anyone, we're having an open competition for it and does it come with question marks? Duh. But what do you want them to do? Force Goossen to not retire? The same thing happened with Calgary (except for the fact that they could see it coming) when Lavertu had to retire because of ongoing health issues, but nobody hops all over them and says Hufnagel isn't successful.

Everyone complains about Walters' ability to draft and develop, but let's look at the facts here. He's been in charge since 2014 - review the drafts, especially top end.

2014: You can say Goossen was the second most successful first round choice, sandwiched between Pruneau and Lavertu. Every other single player was a bust in every sense of the word. Goossen was also the only CFL All-Star from that entire draft.

2015: Chungh, again, probably the second most successful first round choice ... maybe the most successful, although I'll give McEwen the nod. Chungh also only one of three divisional all-stars (Mateas, McEwen) ... people bemoan Richards and Morgan in the second round, but look at the other busts there (spoiler: it's every other selection other than Lemar Durant)

2016: miss in the first round as we used a supplemental to take Waggoner who never panned out, but still managed to draft one of the 4 divisional all-stars in Loffler and again - look at the drafting in the first round ... St. John, Vaillancourt, Gagnon, Jones ... lots of busts there. Also came out of this draft with Couture, who looks to be a starter for us this year. Also .. this is a good time for me to question why everyone seems to give Walters a hard time for losing Loffler in FA but no one holds it against Hufnagel (AGAIN) that they lost Singleton.

2017: Probably the worst draft talent-wise (for the league) in the Walters era and in a draft of busts, he was no different - took Ekakitie first overall and has already lost him but let's check the rest of the first round ... Judge is a starter, Vandervoort is already cut, McGough sucks, Behar already on a new team, Colling already cut, Luke sucks, Gray set to be a likely starter (and let's not forget he was the #1 prospect in this class) and Johnson is a part-time starter. Overall an absolutely horrible draft.

2018: The Bombers have the best player from this draft as well and they burned a 3rd rounder to get him in Wolitarsky. The first overall pick won't even sign in this league, the rest of this draft falls somewhere between waiting on potential and absolutely terrible and no one other than Wolitarsky and maybe Rutherford have even stood out.

2019: not gonna waste my time speculating.

... if you don't feel like reading all that, let me summarize it for you: EVERY single team has swings and misses, EVERY single team loses their top round players, EVERY single team has had some horrendous picks but ONLY Walters has drafted well enough to say he's drafted a top 3 player in every single draft since he became a GM ... and that is pretty **** impressive and deserves some credit.

Seriously. Next time you wanna harp on our front office for their draft and develop track record, go compare it to some of the other front offices in this league. The top 3 since Walters has become GM are Winnipeg, Calgary and Ottawa (that's not in order, I'm not going to argue for or against that) AINEC. Better yet, go look at the Canadian rosters on every other team in the CFL and tell me which ones you'd take over Winnipeg. I'll wait.

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M.O.A.B.
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« Reply #232 on: June 06, 2019, 03:26:17 PM »

Our Canadian drafting and developing is just fine if you don't have the expectation of perfection, in regards to longevity of a career as a Bomber or in regards to the timeline of development lining up with the timeline of departures.

I swear some of the people around here cling to the fact that there are question marks on our roster as a reason for criticism directed at our front office. What do you expect them to do? Sign every single player to lifetime contracts the day they're drafted?

The one that really makes me chuckle is Goossen. Everyone's acting like we lost him to a rival team. The guy retired ... you can't anticipate that, yet what has our front office done? Built depth at that position over the past couple of drafts so that we can be prepared as we'll ever be for something like that. We have a competitive battle going on at our centre position with a guy we drafted and a guy we scooped up as a UDFA ... plus there's Eli to provide depth beyond that. We're  not handing the job to anyone, we're having an open competition for it and does it come with question marks? Duh. But what do you want them to do? Force Goossen to not retire? The same thing happened with Calgary (except for the fact that they could see it coming) when Lavertu had to retire because of ongoing health issues, but nobody hops all over them and says Hufnagel isn't successful.

Everyone complains about Walters' ability to draft and develop, but let's look at the facts here. He's been in charge since 2014 - review the drafts, especially top end.

2014: You can say Goossen was the second most successful first round choice, sandwiched between Pruneau and Lavertu. Every other single player was a bust in every sense of the word. Goossen was also the only CFL All-Star from that entire draft.

2015: Chungh, again, probably the second most successful first round choice ... maybe the most successful, although I'll give McEwen the nod. Chungh also only one of three divisional all-stars (Mateas, McEwen) ... people bemoan Richards and Morgan in the second round, but look at the other busts there (spoiler: it's every other selection other than Lemar Durant)

2016: miss in the first round as we used a supplemental to take Waggoner who never panned out, but still managed to draft one of the 4 divisional all-stars in Loffler and again - look at the drafting in the first round ... St. John, Vaillancourt, Gagnon, Jones ... lots of busts there. Also came out of this draft with Couture, who looks to be a starter for us this year. Also .. this is a good time for me to question why everyone seems to give Walters a hard time for losing Loffler in FA but no one holds it against Hufnagel (AGAIN) that they lost Singleton.

2017: Probably the worst draft talent-wise (for the league) in the Walters era and in a draft of busts, he was no different - took Ekakitie first overall and has already lost him but let's check the rest of the first round ... Judge is a starter, Vandervoort is already cut, McGough sucks, Behar already on a new team, Colling already cut, Luke sucks, Gray set to be a likely starter (and let's not forget he was the #1 prospect in this class) and Johnson is a part-time starter. Overall an absolutely horrible draft.

2018: The Bombers have the best player from this draft as well and they burned a 3rd rounder to get him in Wolitarsky. The first overall pick won't even sign in this league, the rest of this draft falls somewhere between waiting on potential and absolutely terrible and no one other than Wolitarsky and maybe Rutherford have even stood out.

2019: not gonna waste my time speculating.

... if you don't feel like reading all that, let me summarize it for you: EVERY single team has swings and misses, EVERY single team loses their top round players, EVERY single team has had some horrendous picks but ONLY Walters has drafted well enough to say he's drafted a top 3 player in every single draft since he became a GM ... and that is pretty **** impressive and deserves some credit.

Seriously. Next time you wanna harp on our front office for their draft and develop track record, go compare it to some of the other front offices in this league. The top 3 since Walters has become GM are Winnipeg, Calgary and Ottawa (that's not in order, I'm not going to argue for or against that) AINEC. Better yet, go look at the Canadian rosters on every other team in the CFL and tell me which ones you'd take over Winnipeg. I'll wait.



I missed this kind of post from Mike.
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kkc60
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« Reply #233 on: June 06, 2019, 03:26:50 PM »

Our Canadian drafting and developing is just fine if you don't have the expectation of perfection, in regards to longevity of a career as a Bomber or in regards to the timeline of development lining up with the timeline of departures.

I swear some of the people around here cling to the fact that there are question marks on our roster as a reason for criticism directed at our front office. What do you expect them to do? Sign every single player to lifetime contracts the day they're drafted?

The one that really makes me chuckle is Goossen. Everyone's acting like we lost him to a rival team. The guy retired ... you can't anticipate that, yet what has our front office done? Built depth at that position over the past couple of drafts so that we can be prepared as we'll ever be for something like that. We have a competitive battle going on at our centre position with a guy we drafted and a guy we scooped up as a UDFA ... plus there's Eli to provide depth beyond that. We're  not handing the job to anyone, we're having an open competition for it and does it come with question marks? Duh. But what do you want them to do? Force Goossen to not retire? The same thing happened with Calgary (except for the fact that they could see it coming) when Lavertu had to retire because of ongoing health issues, but nobody hops all over them and says Hufnagel isn't successful.

Everyone complains about Walters' ability to draft and develop, but let's look at the facts here. He's been in charge since 2014 - review the drafts, especially top end.

2014: You can say Goossen was the second most successful first round choice, sandwiched between Pruneau and Lavertu. Every other single player was a bust in every sense of the word. Goossen was also the only CFL All-Star from that entire draft.

2015: Chungh, again, probably the second most successful first round choice ... maybe the most successful, although I'll give McEwen the nod. Chungh also only one of three divisional all-stars (Mateas, McEwen) ... people bemoan Richards and Morgan in the second round, but look at the other busts there (spoiler: it's every other selection other than Lemar Durant)

2016: miss in the first round as we used a supplemental to take Waggoner who never panned out, but still managed to draft one of the 4 divisional all-stars in Loffler and again - look at the drafting in the first round ... St. John, Vaillancourt, Gagnon, Jones ... lots of busts there. Also came out of this draft with Couture, who looks to be a starter for us this year. Also .. this is a good time for me to question why everyone seems to give Walters a hard time for losing Loffler in FA but no one holds it against Hufnagel (AGAIN) that they lost Singleton.

2017: Probably the worst draft talent-wise (for the league) in the Walters era and in a draft of busts, he was no different - took Ekakitie first overall and has already lost him but let's check the rest of the first round ... Judge is a starter, Vandervoort is already cut, McGough sucks, Behar already on a new team, Colling already cut, Luke sucks, Gray set to be a likely starter (and let's not forget he was the #1 prospect in this class) and Johnson is a part-time starter. Overall an absolutely horrible draft.

2018: The Bombers have the best player from this draft as well and they burned a 3rd rounder to get him in Wolitarsky. The first overall pick won't even sign in this league, the rest of this draft falls somewhere between waiting on potential and absolutely terrible and no one other than Wolitarsky and maybe Rutherford have even stood out.

2019: not gonna waste my time speculating.

... if you don't feel like reading all that, let me summarize it for you: EVERY single team has swings and misses, EVERY single team loses their top round players, EVERY single team has had some horrendous picks but ONLY Walters has drafted well enough to say he's drafted a top 3 player in every single draft since he became a GM ... and that is pretty **** impressive and deserves some credit.

Seriously. Next time you wanna harp on our front office for their draft and develop track record, go compare it to some of the other front offices in this league. The top 3 since Walters has become GM are Winnipeg, Calgary and Ottawa (that's not in order, I'm not going to argue for or against that) AINEC. Better yet, go look at the Canadian rosters on every other team in the CFL and tell me which ones you'd take over Winnipeg. I'll wait.


Good post. I don't expect perfection. Just don't think we are as good at drafting as some say. I don't fault management for losing our big 3 because none of those were in our control.

Wanna know why no one hope on Hufnagel? (This argument bugs me and here's why)
1) this is a Bombers forum. More often than not we talk Bombers.
2)3 GC games in 3 years. Even if we did analyze every front office, they have been as close to perfect as anyone in recent history record wise.
3)You say no one should criticize the BB for losing Goossen (true and fair) so why would anyone criticize losing Singleton to the NFL?

I've defended the Richards selection because at the time it was a fine pick.

Why is everyone acting as if anyone says our Canadian group isn't good? That argument is getting old. No one said it wasn't good. Quit putting words in mouths.

I'd also argue that Hamilton is above us. McGough isn't a starter but he is a solid STer. Plus they have built up a solid OL group via the draft
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pjrocksmb
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This is the CFL- support our league- Go Canada!


« Reply #234 on: June 06, 2019, 03:28:26 PM »

our team depth is fine, our drafting is fine and our management is doing a good job
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #235 on: June 06, 2019, 03:51:22 PM »

Mike... 

No one is expecting perfection or lifelong contracts.

No one is acting like we lost Goosen to a rival team.

'Everyone' isn't complaining about Walters ability to draft and develop, just a few are. Your own analysis shows Walters best picks were his in his first 2 years and those guys are gone.

The criticism is about losing all 3 all star draft picks we've had since 2014 in the same off season. No, we couldn't have done anything about Goosen, but we could have done something about the other two.

Only a few, not 'Everyone' are blaming Walters for losing Loffler and comparing that to losing Singleton is ridiculous. We didn't lose Loffler to the NFL. We lost him to a rival CFL team and losing him isn't anywhere near as problematic as losing Goosen and Chungh. Assuming that Jones or Hecht are the answer at safety is a stretch in my mind as neither have shown that they can play safety. (No, I don't believe the 'he almost took the job' story because Jones didn't get hurt until game 3 and only played special teams in those games)

Every team has its hits and misses. The problem is that most of our hits are now gone. Maybe the new starters will all turn out to be as good as the all stars they replace and maybe not, but you can't call the new starters hits until they show they are.
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Winnipeg Blue Bombers - 2019 Grey Cup Champs.
BBRT
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If winning isn't everything,why do they keep score


« Reply #236 on: June 06, 2019, 03:53:41 PM »

our team depth is fine, our drafting is fine and our management is doing a good job

IMHO - Our team depth is reasonable, our drafting is average and our management is doing an average job!
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booch
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« Reply #237 on: June 06, 2019, 03:57:05 PM »

Walters has built on-going depth here where we can turn over guys, and have the ability to develop guys in waiting...far cry from where we were, and where many teams are.

Guys who left..well you can't control that for varying reasons, but the ones left fighting for spots haven't left us scrambling...Loffler at his cost...nope...Chungh too really as his signing at 250K per would have hampered us in other areas..every team has this issues every year, but across the board..starters..back-ups..ST'ners I would say we are in the top 2 teams in that area with Canadian players
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theaardvark
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« Reply #238 on: June 06, 2019, 04:07:31 PM »

The fact that other teams are willing to pay a premium to pry Walters drafted talent away from us, and that we can pass on guys like Coombs and Chambers, when these would have been huge upgrades in the Mack era...  that speaks volumes
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kkc60
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« Reply #239 on: June 06, 2019, 04:29:25 PM »

The fact that other teams are willing to pay a premium to pry Walters drafted talent away from us, and that we can pass on guys like Coombs and Chambers, when these would have been huge upgrades in the Mack era...  that speaks volumes

Again, no one said our Canadian talent isn't good.

Also, who paid a premium besides for Chungh? Maybe Loffler too but wasn't the interest low?
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