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Author Topic: Why do we think that scouting is the Bombers problem?  (Read 3316 times)
66 Chevelle
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« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2019, 07:16:11 PM »

you can't attribute this all to Fogg, but as far as end of year defensive stats, and particularly passing, we improved greatly...


for starters, we moved from 5th to 2nd least points allowed, but that's all points... if you take only points scored by the opposing offense we went from 7th to 2nd!
from 7th to 2nd in fewest offensive TDs allowed...
from 8th to 2nd in fewest passing TDs allowed...
from 9th to 5th in fewest passing yards allowed...
from 8th to 2nd in average gain per pass...
we gave up the least 30+ yard passes, only 19 for the year, second best was 25 and the worst was 38...

I know that Fogg isn't responsible for all of the improvement, but didn't seem to be that much of a liability overall...

but, he did lead the entire league in turnovers created for the year!
had the 2nd most interceptions...
and the 2nd most fumble returns/recovered...
had the 2nd most punt return yards...
the most missed FG returns and return yards... (plus he was the only player in the league that returned one for a TD)

so, all in all I believe he earned his keep... but just my opinion...





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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2019, 07:26:25 PM »

I would think this regime's track record speaks for itself as far as talent scouting in the US goes. Receiver and DB in particular have been extremely weak.

Thompkins looks like he could be a keeper, started out pretty hot but only had 29 catches for the year. However, 15 of them were during the first 4 games when Nichols was out, the other 14 were over the last 14 games... but he did average 14.5 yards per catch...

this is a good example of what I was talking about in regards to chemistry and trust. Streve had zero history with all receivers and Thompkins had 15 catches in the first 4 games, Nichols comes back and targets fall way off... Not hating on Nichols here, either, it is what it is for whatever reasons...
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2019, 07:46:19 PM »

also, with regards to scouting/recruiting receivers, specifically last year, the team knew early on that the plan was to start to National receivers so there was only 1 spot available for a new receiver... We knew that Harris, Adams, Dressler, and probably Demski were going to be targets 1 thru 4... hard to shine when you're basically the 5th or 6th option...

also, Washington only had 6 games over 3 games but did average 27.5 yards per catch...

short of cutting either Adams or Dressler I don't see any new guy getting much attention shown their way...
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2019, 08:08:52 PM »

I agree with you regarding receivers but I don't see a problem with the quality of the DB's they've brought in over time, Leggett, Johnny Adams, Loffler, Fogg, Alexander, Sayles, even Brian Walker wasn't half bad.  They've added some good F.A.'s in Fenner and Gaitor recently and have some decent Natl. backups in Jones, Conteh and Morgan.  I think the bone to pick is how the talent has been employed within Richie Hall's system.

Leggett was a great find. Adams was a flash in the pan. Fogg is okay to good. Alexander had a strong sophomore season. Sayles was a beauty find. Walker seemed good but didn't stick. Loffler is a NAT, along with other NAT DBs, so I'm not necessarily giving credit to scouts in the US who are meant to look for INT talent. My whole point was the unearthing of unknowns, so the free agency discussion is basically meaningless.

And sure, the system could be a factor. But I'm speaking strictly on how unimpressive the scouting of DB talent in the US has been under the regime. There is definitely a bone to be picked with regard to that as the results are in plain sight.

Thompkins looks like he could be a keeper, started out pretty hot but only had 29 catches for the year. However, 15 of them were during the first 4 games when Nichols was out, the other 14 were over the last 14 games... but he did average 14.5 yards per catch...

this is a good example of what I was talking about in regards to chemistry and trust. Streve had zero history with all receivers and Thompkins had 15 catches in the first 4 games, Nichols comes back and targets fall way off... Not hating on Nichols here, either, it is what it is for whatever reasons...

Thompkins will be 31 at the end of the July. Despite the issues at QB, he had a solid rookie season. However, he wasn't some unknown prior to the CFL and his age is a factor. Besides him, I can't think of another INT receiver this regime has found that's made an impact. And certainly nobody close to what other organizations have unearthed south of the 49th. That's been a glaring deficiency for the entirety of this regime, IMO.

And you may want to re-check the game logs. Thompkins' first regular season game was July 27th vs. the Argos. Nichols was the starting QB in that game, along with every other game in which he played in 2018.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2019, 08:14:57 PM »

Colour me unimpressed with Thompkins.
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blue girl
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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2019, 08:26:52 PM »

The reason that I blame the scouts is because it took us 28 years to find a QB and I can't remember the last rec that we found and I mean specifically a young receiver not someone who has exhausted all their NFL opportunities.
Leggett was a great find. Adams was a flash in the pan. Fogg is okay to good. Alexander had a strong sophomore season. Sayles was a beauty find. Walker seemed good but didn't stick. Loffler is a NAT, along with other NAT DBs, so I'm not necessarily giving credit to scouts in the US who are meant to look for INT talent. My whole point was the unearthing of unknowns, so the free agency discussion is basically meaningless.

And sure, the system could be a factor. But I'm speaking strictly on how unimpressive the scouting of DB talent in the US has been under the regime. There is definitely a bone to be picked with regard to that as the results are in plain sight.

Thompkins will be 31 at the end of the July. Despite the issues at QB, he had a solid rookie season. However, he wasn't some unknown prior to the CFL and his age is a factor. Besides him, I can't think of another INT receiver this regime has found that's made an impact. And certainly nobody close to what other organizations have unearthed south of the 49th. That's been a glaring deficiency for the entirety of this regime, IMO.

And you may want to re-check the game logs. Thompkins' first regular season game was July 27th vs. the Argos. Nichols was the starting QB in that game, along with every other game in which he played in 2018.
Thank you. I was pretty sure that Thompkins didn't start until later in the season. I believe our starting receivers with Streveler were Adams, Dressler, Demski, Wolitarski and Bowman.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2019, 08:29:54 PM »

Not necessarily. That's your assumption. Maybe he was recruited primarily as a kick/punt return option? Certainly, he's been a solid punt returner for us over his years as a Bomber. He's been an off-and-on starter over his tenure, playing some DB in his first season and not really getting his spot back fulltime until 2018. You can only roster so many players and every team has DBs that the offense attacks. If not him, someone else. He got burned at times last year but you can't automatically compute that with scouting = bad without factoring in all the other variables.

I've just re-watched most of the 2018 games. Most twice but the victories a 3rd time. At times Fogg was beaten like a rented mule. Doesn't matter if he was recruited primarily as a returner. The fact is that he ended up playing a starting role in the secondary. In theory the wide side will see less activity than the inside or strong side WR.

That is the definition of failure. Part of the failure also lies on the DC who had DB's playing in different time zones than receivers. Oppositions targeted Fogg in every game.

I'd be curious to know how many targets versus completions were made against him and for how many yards. Last night I re-watched the 2nd game against the Stamps. Fogg was owned by Matthews.

Matthews had 5 receptions for 113 yards of the 274 yards BLM had including the 6 yard completion early in the game. We did win the game but we got some good plays by Bighill in particular and Thomas to force some turnovers that either prevented points or allowed us to score points.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 08:38:07 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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blue girl
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2019, 08:34:32 PM »

I've just re-watched most of the 2018 games. Most twice but the victories a 3rd time. At times Fogg was beaten like a rented mule. Doesn't matter if he was recruited primarily as a returner. The fact is that he ended up playing a starting role in the secondary.

That is the definition of failure. Part of the failure also lies on the DC who had DB's playing in different time zones than receivers. Oppositions targeted Fogg in every game.

I'd be curious to know how many targets versus completions were made against him and for how many yards. Last night I re-watched the 2nd game against the Stamps. Fogg was owned by Matthews.
I've said all along that Fogg is our weakest link in the secondary. Maybe it's me but he seems to play way off the receivers.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2019, 08:46:41 PM »

I've said all along that Fogg is our weakest link in the secondary. Maybe it's me but he seems to play way off the receivers.

As I suggested that's part of the problem with our strategy. We give up long time consuming drives with the expectation that the opponent will make mistakes and / or we will create turnovers.

We've had success on both those fronts. OTOH it's frustrating seeing an opponent march 80 yards in 10 plays hoping they cough up the ball before they score.  When it goes well it goes well but when it doesn't we come out on the short end of the stick. In those games we lose TOP, field position and ultimately the game.

Obviously there is a weakest link in every secondary. I don't know if Fogg will re-sign in Winnipeg or whether we even want him to re-sign.

If Fogg is re-signed and starts the season as a starting CB I will be greatly concerned once again.
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Tehedra
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2019, 08:53:55 PM »

I agree with Chevelle, I also do not understand all the Fogg hate, I mean yeah in 2017 he got beat several times like a rented mule but he made up for it with some amazing returns.  This year his returns weren't as great when he did them but on defense he had a very good showing.  I think many are hard on our team without really looking at the facts.  We started off the year with a weak defense, which seemed mostly to be scheme and chemistry, and an okay offense.  We ended the year with a strong defense, and a weak offense.  If the defense and the offense could have clicked at the same time I think we would have made it much further this year and probably would have had a chance at the cup.  In the end we lost to the cup winners
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2019, 09:02:28 PM »

I agree with Chevelle, I also do not understand all the Fogg hate, I mean yeah in 2017 he got beat several times like a rented mule but he made up for it with some amazing returns.  This year his returns weren't as great when he did them but on defense he had a very good showing.  I think many are hard on our team without really looking at the facts.  We started off the year with a weak defense, which seemed mostly to be scheme and chemistry, and an okay offense.  We ended the year with a strong defense, and a weak offense.  If the defense and the offense could have clicked at the same time I think we would have made it much further this year and probably would have had a chance at the cup.  In the end we lost to the cup winners

Many of us said that Fogg would be the problem in TC if he was a full time starter. Of course we look at the facts. We watch and re-watch the games in detail. We understand roster strengths and weakness's on the team and across the league.

It's not that we couldn't have won with Fogg and he certainly wasn't the only weakness even on defense.

Losing to the winners is not much of a consolation though.

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2019, 09:09:49 PM »

you can't attribute this all to Fogg, but as far as end of year defensive stats, and particularly passing, we improved greatly...


for starters, we moved from 5th to 2nd least points allowed, but that's all points... if you take only points scored by the opposing offense we went from 7th to 2nd!
from 7th to 2nd in fewest offensive TDs allowed...
from 8th to 2nd in fewest passing TDs allowed...
from 9th to 5th in fewest passing yards allowed...
from 8th to 2nd in average gain per pass...
we gave up the least 30+ yard passes, only 19 for the year, second best was 25 and the worst was 38...

I know that Fogg isn't responsible for all of the improvement, but didn't seem to be that much of a liability overall...

but, he did lead the entire league in turnovers created for the year!
had the 2nd most interceptions...
and the 2nd most fumble returns/recovered...
had the 2nd most punt return yards...
the most missed FG returns and return yards... (plus he was the only player in the league that returned one for a TD)

so, all in all I believe he earned his keep... but just my opinion...







Three things.

We lost more games in 2018 than in 2017.

In 2018 we added Bighill to replace Hurl at MLB.

Interesting that you're willing to throw Nichols under the bus but not Fogg.

BTW. Along with the " good " defensive stats.

We were 7th in highest completion % against. 8th in number of completions and 8th in completion attempts.

Teams threw on the Bombers.

Could never figure out why Fenner wasn't starting somewhere in the secondary. In TC we thought Fenner would be possibly start at SAM or Gaitor if Leggett was not ready. As it turned out Gaitor won the position at SAM.

Depending on Leggett's health I thought both of Fenner and Gaitor would probably start somewhere if he couldn't. That might have pushed one of them out to CB making Fogg the DI returner. Or they might have considered moving Alexander out to CB as well.

Fenner was probably making quite a bit more than Fogg to only play ST's?? Coaching error? Coaching loyalty?

Not sure but seemed surprising to me.

Fenner had 76 DT's in 2017 starting in BC as well as 27 ST's.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 09:31:56 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2019, 09:20:52 PM »


And you may want to re-check the game logs. Thompkins' first regular season game was July 27th vs. the Argos. Nichols was the starting QB in that game, along with every other game in which he played in 2018.


You are absolutely correct, my apologies... when I looked at his stats I noticed the large number of catches during the first 4 games, however, I didn't bother to check the week. It was his first 4 games he played in for the year, not the teams first 4 games...  thanks for catching that...
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Blue72
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« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2019, 09:30:10 PM »

What really made our defense strong this year was the play of our MLB. With Bighill in there and being a real MLB our DBs were able to play there positions and not have to move up and help the front seven. Also we went with ALL but one IMP on the defensive side which weakened the offensive side a bit, now was that because of a weak DC ( Richie Hall) and his plays or we couldn't find another starter Nat position.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2019, 09:43:49 PM »

Three things.

We lost more games in 2018 than in 2017.

In 2018 we added Bighill to replace Hurl at MLB.

Interesting that you're willing to throw Nichols under the bus but not Fogg.

BTW. Along with the " good " defensive stats.

We were 7th in highest completion % against. 8th in number of completions and 8th in completion attempts.

Teams threw on the Bombers.

in all honesty I try to only use stats that would most likely be attributed to the secondary, otherwise, I would have included...

that the defense allowed over 100 fewer offensive points than last year, 7th to 2nd...
gave up 15 fewer TDs, 7th to 2nd...
18 fewer passing TDs, 8th to 2nd...
allowed over 900 fewer passing yards, 9th to 5th...
over 50 fewer pass attempts against them, and, allowed 45 fewer completions, and opposing teams had a worse completion % against them this year..
opponents passing efficiency dropped by more than 10 points as well...

I'm sure I could find a few more, but, that really wasn't what I was trying to achieve...

sure, we lost more games this year than last, but we did win a playoff game... maybe we could chalk up a few of those losses to those Pick6's that Nichols threw, you think?

plus, I didn't realize that Bighill played in the secondary, I thought his primary responsibilities were pass rush and run stop...
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