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Author Topic: Blue Bombers roster - 2018-2019  (Read 297240 times)
blue_or_die
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« Reply #90 on: December 19, 2018, 01:15:29 PM »

Another reason CIS football emphasises education more: they are preparing players for CFL which requires an actual job along with playing. Meanwhile most NCAA Div 1 programs are preparing for NFL. You don't need another job for the most part

They ought to rethink that, then, because only a fraction of NCAA athletes will make the bigs and will need to fall back on their degree for a regular job.
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booch
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« Reply #91 on: December 19, 2018, 02:29:07 PM »

Yeah, not likely, you under estimate the talent in the CIS.
I played in the CIS...Then a year of JUCO before transfering to San Jose State...and now coach/train and prep kids for Draft....have a pretty good handle on the talent levels in all 3 of the aforementioned classes of schools....I seen High School teams in California and Texas with teams that would probably beat, or at the least give CIS teams a good run for their money....no joke!
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booch
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« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2018, 02:32:08 PM »

I agree, CIS does not compare with Division 1, but the point I was trying to make is that there are a lot of CIS players that are just as good talent wise as Division 1 players, but where the difference is lies in the level of coaching the players receive.
Some are yeah...but a team may have 1 player that is at par with a Div 1 school....the rest maybe would run scout team
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theaardvark
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« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2018, 02:48:13 PM »

Wow,,, that's a bad break.. looks just like the Nichols one in Edmonton...
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Horseman
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« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2018, 03:02:45 PM »

I played in the CIS...Then a year of JUCO before transfering to San Jose State...and now coach/train and prep kids for Draft....have a pretty good handle on the talent levels in all 3 of the aforementioned classes of schools....I seen High School teams in California and Texas with teams that would probably beat, or at the least give CIS teams a good run for their money....no joke!

Sorry, you maybe able to fool some of the people on this forum, but you are way off the mark.
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booch
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« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2018, 03:53:19 PM »

ok boss...not trying to fool anyone...just saying it as it is...especially as most high level kids in the U.S have been playing football since 5 years old by the time they get to university, whereas the Canadian kids in a lot of places don't pick up the sport until Highschool they are right off the bat behind the talent curve, and factor in about 80 percent of of the best of the best of Canadian kids go to American Schools...be it JUCO or any of the NCAA divisions leaves pretty much scraps left over for the Canadian schools...you can argue it all you want, but it is what it is.

We have CIS kids come down to the Bay Area to train for college/university as well as prep for regional combines and I can count on one hand over the past 5 years where a kid was as good or better than an American kid at his position.

Now factor in a whole team of those kids on a CIS team and yeah..sure they can compete...but when you have a school with one or two guys of that calibre on your team, and the rest are their hometown highschool stars who of the majority have at best 4 solid years of football training behind them...and for the most part not elite training and coaching and you will see a DIV 1 U.S school embarrassingly hammering them...and DIV 2-3 and some JUCO's 99 times out of 100 cruising to easy victory.

Basing your opinion on lining up against one dude in highschool in some exhibition game as your basis to say CIS can compete with NCAA schools is crazy.
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Horseman
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« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2018, 05:00:39 PM »

ok boss...not trying to fool anyone...just saying it as it is...especially as most high level kids in the U.S have been playing football since 5 years old by the time they get to university, whereas the Canadian kids in a lot of places don't pick up the sport until Highschool they are right off the bat behind the talent curve, and factor in about 80 percent of of the best of the best of Canadian kids go to American Schools...be it JUCO or any of the NCAA divisions leaves pretty much scraps left over for the Canadian schools...you can argue it all you want, but it is what it is.

We have CIS kids come down to the Bay Area to train for college/university as well as prep for regional combines and I can count on one hand over the past 5 years where a kid was as good or better than an American kid at his position.

Now factor in a whole team of those kids on a CIS team and yeah..sure they can compete...but when you have a school with one or two guys of that calibre on your team, and the rest are their hometown highschool stars who of the majority have at best 4 solid years of football training behind them...and for the most part not elite training and coaching and you will see a DIV 1 U.S school embarrassingly hammering them...and DIV 2-3 and some JUCO's 99 times out of 100 cruising to easy victory.

Basing your opinion on lining up against one dude in highschool in some exhibition game as your basis to say CIS can compete with NCAA schools is crazy.

It wasn't in high school it was University ball, Division 1, with the guy being touted as a 1st round NFL draft pick by Sports Illustrated at the time. There were tougher better ball players in the CIS that I played against than this fellow. There is no question the American players get better coaching during their years, but to say that a junior college team or high school team could beat a CIS team is out to lunch big time. I have known guys who couldn't make a CIS team that went to play junior college in the states and it is a lower level of ball. The NCAA Division 1 teams have a greater percentage of grade A players because the talent pool in the states is much bigger to choose from than in Canada, but Canadians can definitely compete with Americans. We Canadians have an inferiority complex and think because they are American players they are so much better than a Canadian and that simply is not be true and I am calling you out on it.
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Jesse
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« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2018, 05:04:30 PM »

It wasn't in high school it was University ball, Division 1, with the guy being touted as a 1st round NFL draft pick by Sports Illustrated at the time. There were tougher better ball players in the CIS that I played against than this fellow. There is no question the American players get better coaching during their years, but to say that a junior college team or high school team could beat a CIS team is out to lunch big time. I have known guys who couldn't make a CIS team that went to play junior college in the states and it is a lower level of ball. The NCAA Division 1 teams have a greater percentage of grade A players because the talent pool in the states is much bigger to choose from than in Canada, but Canadians can definitely compete with Americans. We Canadians have an inferiority complex and think because they are American players they are so much better than a Canadian and that simply is not be true and I am calling you out on it.

Well, I don't think many are going to agree with you on this one.

It's not really an inferiority complex. It has to do with the fact that football is a bigger deal in the US than in Canada, and they have 10x as many people.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2018, 05:22:42 PM »

It wasn't in high school it was University ball, Division 1, with the guy being touted as a 1st round NFL draft pick by Sports Illustrated at the time. There were tougher better ball players in the CIS that I played against than this fellow. There is no question the American players get better coaching during their years, but to say that a junior college team or high school team could beat a CIS team is out to lunch big time. I have known guys who couldn't make a CIS team that went to play junior college in the states and it is a lower level of ball. The NCAA Division 1 teams have a greater percentage of grade A players because the talent pool in the states is much bigger to choose from than in Canada, but Canadians can definitely compete with Americans. We Canadians have an inferiority complex and think because they are American players they are so much better than a Canadian and that simply is not be true and I am calling you out on it.

If true, where's the proof? Show me the successful Canadian quarterbacks? Why do so many CFL teams struggle to find and recruit quality national talent (especially depth)? Even most CFL teams consistantly rank non-imports who have played in the NCAA higher than CIS in the drafts. Look up the history (especially in the first round). Why doesn't the NFL sign more players directly from the CIS? The vast majority of the upper echelon of CIS talent is lucky to get a practice roster spot, and most are returned to the CFL after a couple years at most. Why is that? NFL teams (and college recruiting) don't like to win? Aren't smart enough to see the pipeline of talent coming from Canadian high schools/PSIs?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 05:25:00 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
the paw
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« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2018, 05:41:48 PM »

If true, where's the proof? Show me the successful Canadian quarterbacks? Why do so many CFL teams struggle to find and recruit quality national talent (especially depth)? Even most CFL teams consistantly rank non-imports who have played in the NCAA higher than CIS in the drafts. Look up the history (especially in the first round). Why doesn't the NFL sign more players directly from the CIS? The vast majority of the upper echelon of CIS talent is lucky to get a practice roster spot, and most are returned to the CFL after a couple years at most. Why is that? NFL teams (and college recruiting) don't like to win? Aren't smart enough to see the pipeline of talent coming from Canadian high schools/PSIs?


I don't think its unreasonable to posit that top CIS performers can compete with NCAA players for CFL spots.  I also think its fairly obvious that this only really only applies to top-end guys like a Fantuz or Sinopoli, and that the more typical CIS grads are grinding it out on specials.  I have to confess, that given two prospects where one is from NCAA and one from CIS, I tend to think the NCAA guy is going to be better.  Then I remember Carl Volny....

I don't buy the argument that teams "struggle" to find Canadian talent.  The reason we don't see more top performers who are Canadian is because we have allowed the ratio rules to be manipulated to allow it.  The expansion of the DI role, along with the shrinking of the ratio requirement means that fewer Canadians get the time and reps to really grow into excellence.  Back in the day, Rick House could take a year to grow into the spot, and then actually see some targets in his second year and go onto an excellent career.  Today, he'd be gunning on special teams and hope to get thrown out there as a decoy at field side WR eventually. 
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2018, 06:00:07 PM »

I don't think its unreasonable to posit that top CIS performers can compete with NCAA players for CFL spots.  I also think its fairly obvious that this only really only applies to top-end guys like a Fantuz or Sinopoli, and that the more typical CIS grads are grinding it out on specials.  I have to confess, that given two prospects where one is from NCAA and one from CIS, I tend to think the NCAA guy is going to be better.  Then I remember Carl Volny....

I don't buy the argument that teams "struggle" to find Canadian talent.  The reason we don't see more top performers who are Canadian is because we have allowed the ratio rules to be manipulated to allow it.  The expansion of the DI role, along with the shrinking of the ratio requirement means that fewer Canadians get the time and reps to really grow into excellence.  Back in the day, Rick House could take a year to grow into the spot, and then actually see some targets in his second year and go onto an excellent career.  Today, he'd be gunning on special teams and hope to get thrown out there as a decoy at field side WR eventually. 

Sure, I think that's fair. And to be honest, some positions seem to have a further gap than others. Offensive lineman are closer (there's a reason Canadian teams draft as many of them as possible, it's because the skill difference tends to reduced). The skill positions are a different story usually. Jade Etienne?. For all the potential Simonise and Petermann have, Wolitartsky is head and shoulders better and he played his ball at Minnesota. Good cover corners are rarely Canadian. Linebackers overall are import spots although there are a few notable examples. We started Sam Hurl at linebacker for an entire year exclusively because of his passport. Safety tends to skew Canadian but you've got to put your 7 starters somewhere. Generally, most teams in the CFL have a few Canadians who truly belong, a couple who start mostly because you need seven and depth that nobody wants to find just how much of a step down it is. Not exactly glowing proof of the strong pipeline of talent coming from the CIS.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 06:03:42 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
Horseman
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« Reply #101 on: December 19, 2018, 06:08:30 PM »

Well, I don't think many are going to agree with you on this one.

It's not really an inferiority complex. It has to do with the fact that football is a bigger deal in the US than in Canada, and they have 10x as many people.

That's what I said.
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Waffler
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« Reply #102 on: December 19, 2018, 06:12:13 PM »

.I seen High School teams in California and Texas with teams that would probably beat, or at the least give CIS teams a good run for their money....no joke!

At the skill positions you are going to have some American kids stand out, no question.  However I think line play is going to be so lopsided in favor of the university guys, some of whom are 25 years old, there is no way 18 year old kids are going to hold up the entire game. The Canadian University just needs to play a conservative, contain and grind them down game to win.
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Horseman
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« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2018, 06:13:32 PM »

If true, where's the proof? Show me the successful Canadian quarterbacks? Why do so many CFL teams struggle to find and recruit quality national talent (especially depth)? Even most CFL teams consistantly rank non-imports who have played in the NCAA higher than CIS in the drafts. Look up the history (especially in the first round). Why doesn't the NFL sign more players directly from the CIS? The vast majority of the upper echelon of CIS talent is lucky to get a practice roster spot, and most are returned to the CFL after a couple years at most. Why is that? NFL teams (and college recruiting) don't like to win? Aren't smart enough to see the pipeline of talent coming from Canadian high schools/PSIs?


There are quality QB's that would be able to play quite well in the CFL, but the ratio rules make it favourable to have an American playing at that position because they get better coaching growing up. The best Canadian QB that I ever saw or competed against was Greg Vavra from the U of Calgary, an amazing player that could have played QB in the CFL, but like Sinopoli had to play receiver. There are more and more Canadians being drafted, signing or being considered in the NFL than ever before, ask yourself why.
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booch
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« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2018, 07:02:46 PM »

I don't mind being called out and challenged on it...and never said any highschool team or JUCO team would thump em or give them (CIS) teams A GOOD RUN FOR THEIR MONEY....  BUT many would....and yeah some Canucks made  A JUCO team after not making their Canadian team...so they just quit at end of camp and went south?..seems highly suspect, and some JUCO loops are garbage ball...especially the ones in the Northern parts of the U.S...that I will give you in your argument.

But further south and especially on the coast many are DIV 1 calibre but are in JUCO for a myriad of reasons..not talent reasons or lack there of.

I find it hard to believe all this top tier first round NFL talent that you faced in the CIS fell through the cracks and never became first rounders in the NFL draft, as they were much better than the Sports Illustrated ranked guys...do you have names of said NCaa guy who sucked in comparison to the CIS competition?

I've seen U.S highschool teams have O-lines average 300+ pounds as seniors and all go on to start in top NCAA programs the following year and you would be hard pressed to find 5 guys in all of the CIS who could be dominat starters in the same programs, and it's not like they have no opportunity..especially these days because if they were good enough..they would be there already...like 99 percent of the talented Canadian kids are, and the rest stay in CIS schools....to tell me a kid would balk at a scholarship and all that went with a top U.S college to play CIS ball is laughable...at least with all the players former and current that I have worked with

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