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Author Topic: Why Aren't The Bombers Winning Grey Cups?  (Read 2230 times)
In Motion
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« on: November 26, 2018, 02:26:54 AM »


  There are many reasons for our Grey Cup drought. In my opinion, one big reason
is sticking with players who are mediocre. For example, we need not just good import
receivers; we need GREAT receivers. We can't be satisfied with getting 5-8 yards per kick return;
we need at least 10 or 15 per return. Just two examples.
   
    Scouts need to get out there and find us some great players.
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bwiser
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2018, 02:45:09 AM »

I don't think our GM's have been as good as they need to be over the years.When I saw Matthews winning a Grey Cup today and think that we could have had him down the stretch and how he could have been the difference between winning and losing.The Bombers have been a bit of a cheap organization with small coaching and scouting staffs.I just don't see us being aggressive enough pursuing free agents.There has also been a bit of an old boys club in the executive for many years.
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Duckman118
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2018, 02:54:03 AM »

I don't think our GM's have been as good as they need to be over the years.When I saw Matthews winning a Grey Cup today and think that we could have had him down the stretch and how he could have been the difference between winning and losing.The Bombers have been a bit of a cheap organization with small coaching and scouting staffs.I just don't see us being aggressive enough pursuing free agents.There has also been a bit of an old boys club in the executive for many years.
Walters and co have been extremely aggressive in FA, not sure what you're talking about.

And to add about adding Mathews for the stretch run, I believe that back in 2016 when we signed Tory Gurly after he was cut by the Argos, he was supposed to be that big bodied receiver we needed. He ended up sucking and being released. This past off-seaskn we added Adarius Bowman for the exact same role. He sucked and we traded him. I think Walters is just weary of adding a peice that won't stick again.
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dd
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2018, 03:48:35 AM »

All things being equal, It comes down to one very basic thing?-Quarterback . You need a guy who?s going to get the job done, or at the very least not give the game away. Trevor Harris gave the game away today. Matt Nichols gave the game away a week ago. Look at our losing streak this sesson, our team wasn?t playing that bad, Matt Nichols was stinking the joint out.

Over the years we ve had the likes of Tommy Clements, and Matt Dunnigan and surprise, grey cup victories followed. I m not convinced Nichols can get the job done for us moving ahead.
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Blue In Edmonton
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2018, 03:50:14 AM »

All things being equal, It comes down to one very basic thing?-Quarterback . You need a guy who?s going to get the job done, or at the very least not give the game away. Trevor Harris gave the game away today. Matt Nichols gave the game away a week ago. Look at our losing streak this sesson, our team wasn?t playing that bad, Matt Nichols was stinking the joint out.

Over the years we ve had the likes of Tommy Clements, and Matt Dunnigan and surprise, grey cup victories followed. I m not convinced Nichols can get the job done for us moving ahead.

We never won a Cup with Dunnigan. We did win Cups with Sean Salisbury and Tom Burgess.
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dd
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2018, 03:55:46 AM »

Both those guys weren?t flashy, but they never lost you the game either. We had unreal defenses those 2years and all Salisbury and burgess had to do was move the ball, play th field position game, and not turn th ball over and we win, to which they did.
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Blue In Edmonton
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2018, 04:06:08 AM »

Both those guys weren?t flashy, but they never lost you the game either. We had unreal defenses those 2years and all Salisbury and burgess had to do was move the ball, play th field position game, and not turn th ball over and we win, to which they did.

Yes. And we don't have that now. It ain't just Nichols.
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dd
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2018, 04:14:52 AM »

You?re right, you can get away with a below average offense, if your D is down right dominant. We don?t have that, so a so-so Qb like Nichols won?t get it done here. If we had mike Reilly this my year, guaranteed we beat Calgary and are hoisting the grey cup
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Blue In Edmonton
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2018, 04:18:20 AM »

Or a burner receiver. Or a shut-down corner.
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2018, 04:21:04 AM »

When we landed Bighill I thought we had a legitimate shot at the cup and that was based on our offence chipping in equally.   They didn't chip in enough and Nichols wasn't good enough to overcome Calgary's very good defence.   If we lose Bighill I fear we aren't going deeper than we already have.   I just don't see it...thoughts?
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Blue In Edmonton
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2018, 04:31:14 AM »

We weren't good enough with this year's line up. We won't be good enough next year if the roster doesn't improve. Some players will improve, to be sure. That won't be enough. We need to improve the roster. That includes retaining Bighill, improving at DB, and improving at receiver.

We aren't making a QB change.
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buckzumhoff
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2018, 05:11:35 AM »

We don't keep the best players. We cut some players in pre season who had really good games and kept ones who didn't. We sign Bowman instead ansd pay him a larger contract. We could have won this year. We were good enough to beat Calgary , our defense held them to 22 points . I still think Calgary spends allot more on players. They always have. Any team or teams like Toronto or Calgary , afford the top players. Calgary spends more, they get around the cap salary.  They had Flutie who won it a couple times. Any team who can sign Flutie has the money for players like him to sign. These players don't just sign with any team. They sign with teams who have the money. BC was the same way for awhile. I think they used to call it where you can over pay one player. They get money doesnt count towards salary.  Well ever since they did that some teams kept doing it. But good for Calgary. They were the best this year. Bombers had one of the best teams all around. Calgary had no running game, Edmonton didn't , Sask was hurting at qb. All we needed was \Nichols to play one good game .  But it was a good year.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 05:19:53 AM by buckzumhoff » Logged
BLUEBOMBER
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2018, 07:01:00 AM »

When Bowman couldn't cut it, we should have went out there to get ourselves a Grant or Mathews who are proven winners. Instead, we stuck with newbies that dont know much about the CFL game. We could have beat Calgary if we gave Nichols an extra receiver or two.
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bwiser
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2018, 10:37:48 AM »

Walters and co have been extremely aggressive in FA, not sure what you're talking about.

And to add about adding Mathews for the stretch run, I believe that back in 2016 when we signed Tory Gurly after he was cut by the Argos, he was supposed to be that big bodied receiver we needed. He ended up sucking and being released. This past off-seaskn we added Adarius Bowman for the exact same role. He sucked and we traded him. I think Walters is just weary of adding a peice that won't stick again.
I am not just referring to the current administration but the many who have failed to win the cup.I will say that the current group failed to add a receiver down the stretch when it was obvious we needed an upgrade there.It didn't have to be Matthews but there were other viable options.
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GCn18
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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2018, 12:45:29 PM »

We lost to an extremely good Calgary team in a foul weather game. I think our team was easily capable of bringing home the cup this year but just didn't take advantage of the opportunities and Calgary did. That was a pretty evenly matched game decided by a handful of plays. Could have gone either way really.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2018, 01:06:47 PM »

We lost to an extremely good Calgary team in a foul weather game. I think our team was easily capable of bringing home the cup this year but just didn't take advantage of the opportunities and Calgary did. That was a pretty evenly matched game decided by a handful of plays. Could have gone either way really.

GCn19, then, hopefully?
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the paw
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2018, 02:04:55 PM »

We lost to an extremely good Calgary team in a foul weather game. I think our team was easily capable of bringing home the cup this year but just didn't take advantage of the opportunities and Calgary did. That was a pretty evenly matched game decided by a handful of plays. Could have gone either way really.

Exactly.  We had a great chance at it this year.  Which is all you can really ask for, given the random factors that impact either your own squad or the competition in any given year. 

If we keep fielding teams like the one we did this year, the playoff wins will take care of themselves, and eventually one will be a Grey Cup.  While its tempting to try to reduce it to one or two "key upgrades", every upgrade has unintended consequences in terms of salary cap, leadership, chemistry and fit. 
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2018, 02:29:52 PM »

CFL football is won by good Canadians, good O line and good/great QB's. We have 2 out of three. BLM, Ray, Reilly, Burris, BLM are the winning QB's over the last 5 years.

Playoff wins aren't random. Calgary and Ottawa win them all the time.

Playoff wins don't take care of themselves. The regular season is to get the best playoff ranking. Win the division, and you have a better chance of getting to the Grey Cup. Get 2nd and you get a home playoff game and a better chance at the Grey Cup. 3rd or crossover gets you a playoff game or two, but rarely does it get you to the Grey Cup.

Winnipeg fans and management are happy with looking good in the regular season, winning more than we lose, and getting a playoff win every few years. That's better than being poor all the time, for sure, but not the attitude that gets you Grey Cups.
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GCn18
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2018, 02:37:50 PM »

Exactly.  We had a great chance at it this year.  Which is all you can really ask for, given the random factors that impact either your own squad or the competition in any given year. 

If we keep fielding teams like the one we did this year, the playoff wins will take care of themselves, and eventually one will be a Grey Cup.  While its tempting to try to reduce it to one or two "key upgrades", every upgrade has unintended consequences in terms of salary cap, leadership, chemistry and fit. 
Exactly.  We had a great chance at it this year.  Which is all you can really ask for, given the random factors that impact either your own squad or the competition in any given year. 

If we keep fielding teams like the one we did this year, the playoff wins will take care of themselves, and eventually one will be a Grey Cup.  While its tempting to try to reduce it to one or two "key upgrades", every upgrade has unintended consequences in terms of salary cap, leadership, chemistry and fit. 

I don't like that we didn't get the Cup, and of course some guns for hire may have helped, but really this team was capable as is to win and just didn't do it. It is really hard in retrospect to say that Chris Matthews would have won us a cup....he may have fumbled 5 times for all we know. The team that we fielded in the WF was strong enough to win that game. Calgary made their plays...we didn't. Talent wasn't the problem...execution was and some of that was due to the weather.
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buckzumhoff
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2018, 02:43:45 PM »

I am not just referring to the current administration but the many who have failed to win the cup.I will say that the current group failed to add a receiver down the stretch when it was obvious we needed an upgrade there.It didn't have to be Matthews but there were other viable options.


. Even Calgary signed Bakari Grant for back up. They say we cant spend the money, we have the players. But the players they put in don't get to see the ball.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2018, 02:56:47 PM »

I don't like that we didn't get the Cup, and of course some guns for hire may have helped, but really this team was capable as is to win and just didn't do it. It is really hard in retrospect to say that Chris Matthews would have won us a cup....he may have fumbled 5 times for all we know. The team that we fielded in the WF was strong enough to win that game. Calgary made their plays...we didn't. Talent wasn't the problem...execution was and some of that was due to the weather.

Exactly, can't blame any of the receivers for losing the WSF, the ball was just not getting to them, so it didn't really matter who they were.  The QB and the OC  both needed to be more aggressive and trust that the D. could deal with the consequences of any turnovers that occurred.  They played too scared to win.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 02:58:21 PM by Throw Long Bannatyne » Logged
Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2018, 02:57:42 PM »

Perhaps controversial, but I think we would have won a Grey Cup under O'Shea is we played in the East. Here's where we would have finished the last three years (without factoring in we would be playing extra games against weaker eastern opponents):

2018 - hosting the East Semi-Final and then a trip to Ottawa
2017 - hosting the East Final
2016 - hosting the East Final


We would be just as decorated as Ottawa if we were playing in their reality.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2018, 02:58:58 PM »

Calgary played in the same conditions that we did. The honest truth is that they are simply a better team than we are.

We had almost everything going our way. Only 1 starter out. A long winning streak at the end of the season. Rested starters. They still beat us and that's a worry for me. If we can't get it done when everything is almost perfectly aligned, what are our chances when they aren't?
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2018, 03:03:33 PM »

Calgary played in the same conditions that we did. The honest truth is that they are simply a better team than we are.

We had almost everything going our way. Only 1 starter out. A long winning streak at the end of the season. Rested starters. They still beat us and that's a worry for me. If we can't get it done when everything is almost perfectly aligned, what are our chances when they aren't?

A bye week and a home game is a giant advantage. The winners of the division have advanced to the Grey Cup the last three years. We beat Calgary on equal rest in Winnipeg three weeks before the West Final. Bo Levi is better than Nichols, but on the whole, we weren't outclassed by much.
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GCn18
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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2018, 03:04:11 PM »

Calgary played in the same conditions that we did. The honest truth is that they are simply a better team than we are.

We had almost everything going our way. Only 1 starter out. A long winning streak at the end of the season. Rested starters. They still beat us and that's a worry for me. If we can't get it done when everything is almost perfectly aligned, what are our chances when they aren't?

Calgary was better at executing on that day, therefore that day they were the better team. However, you seem to think that they had superior talent and that the game was a foregone conclusion. I disagree. We had our chances to win that game. Twice we had men behind coverage wide open for easy TDs. Calgary made their throws...we didn't. That's not a talent issue...that's an execution issue because I don't believe that Nichols or Streveler would miss that play often. On that day they did.
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GCn18
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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2018, 03:06:40 PM »

A bye week and a home game is a giant advantage. The winners of the division have advanced to the Grey Cup the last three years. We beat Calgary on equal rest in Winnipeg three weeks before the West Final. Bo Levi is better than Nichols, but on the whole, we weren't outclassed by much.

We weren't outclassed at all. It was a one score game that saw no one dominate at any point.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2018, 03:08:53 PM »

I don't think it was a forgone conclusion.

BLM missed an open receiver behind our defense too.

BLM > Nichols. That's what it came down to.
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GCn18
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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2018, 03:11:14 PM »

I don't think it was a forgone conclusion.

BLM missed an open receiver behind our defense too.

BLM > Nichols. That's what it came down to.

BLM had pretty pedestrian numbers that day too. He was clutch though.
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Donny C
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« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2018, 03:13:04 PM »

2007, Should have won if our QB didn't break his arm before the Grey Cup.

2011 Swagggerville ended up being stagerville

So there have been opportunities in the last ten years. With 8 team league if there was complete pairady (sp?) then the Bombers should win the cup every 8 years. Based on recent past Grey Cup appearances, they had the chance to make that average.

One thing that nobody is talking about is the Bombers going West...and getting nothing to do so.

Originally when the Bombers went back West I believed it was a huge mistake and even posted about that. Compounding that mistake is that they did not receive anything from the league to move divisions. The Bombers have not made it to the Grey Cup since moving to the West.

I believe that this year WPG had a good enough team to win they Grey Cup, so I wouldn't blow up the team. Instead, I think they need to add a few pieces.

1. QB: I wouldn't make Streveller the starter! Is he the QB of the future? Maybe. But he isn't the QB of today. For those that don't like Nichols, WPG was one of (or the) highest scoring offense in the league. And even if that came with Field Goals, Nichols put WPG in position to kick them.

If you want to replace Nichols, then I ask,, "With who?" Lulay? No thanks. Jennings? I don't think he is even as good as Nichols. Franklin? He hasn't proved that he's better either. Trevor Harris? To me, he might be equal to Nichols. Reily. Sure, I'd take that. Bo? I don't like him, but my only loyalty is to winning.

2 Our return game needs to improve

3 Deep threat receiver(s)

4 There was a stark difference in our D from the first half of the season to the second half. Whatever that change was, it must continue.

To me, those are the top 4 areas of focus.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2018, 03:30:00 PM »

The Bombers were good enough on paper to compete for the Grey Cup. The Stamps were just that much better on the field.

I expect Nichols to be back, to be the starter, and to play most of the snaps next year. That being said, I'd replace him and his $450K salary with either Jennings or Franklin. Neither have done as much in the league, but both are still young with upside and neither will command anywhere near as much salary. That would allow us to upgrade other position(s) which may be more beneficial than having Nichols on the team.
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Donny C
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« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2018, 03:35:40 PM »

The Bombers were good enough on paper to compete for the Grey Cup. The Stamps were just that much better on the field.

I expect Nichols to be back, to be the starter, and to play most of the snaps next year. That being said, I'd replace him and his $450K salary with either Jennings or Franklin. Neither have done as much in the league, but both are still young with upside and neither will command anywhere near as much salary. That would allow us to upgrade other position(s) which may be more beneficial than having Nichols on the team.

To me that's a big risk! Without a QB...you don't win.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2018, 03:37:11 PM »

The Bombers were good enough on paper to compete for the Grey Cup. The Stamps were just that much better on the field.

I expect Nichols to be back, to be the starter, and to play most of the snaps next year. That being said, I'd replace him and his $450K salary with either Jennings or Franklin. Neither have done as much in the league, but both are still young with upside and neither will command anywhere near as much salary. That would allow us to upgrade other position(s) which may be more beneficial than having Nichols on the team.

Strev. backed by Jennings or Franklin sounds like the recipe for a 6-win season to me.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2018, 03:51:35 PM »

The Bombers were good enough on paper to compete for the Grey Cup. The Stamps were just that much better on the field.

I expect Nichols to be back, to be the starter, and to play most of the snaps next year. That being said, I'd replace him and his $450K salary with either Jennings or Franklin. Neither have done as much in the league, but both are still young with upside and neither will command anywhere near as much salary. That would allow us to upgrade other position(s) which may be more beneficial than having Nichols on the team.

We did compete for a Grey Cup. We went to the West Final in a year when any team coming out of the west was likely to win.  Jennings and Franklin may be available because they aren't very good, not because they haven't done much. Steveler hasn't "done much" but we're not going to get rid of him. Bo Levi outplayed Nichols, so the solution to further downgrade the quarterback position so we can sign an extra import receiver or something is not a good idea.
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Cool Spot
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« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2018, 04:11:14 PM »

CFL football is won by good Canadians, good O line and good/great QB's. We have 2 out of three. BLM, Ray, Reilly, Burris, BLM are the winning QB's over the last 5 years.

Playoff wins aren't random. Calgary and Ottawa win them all the time.

I agree with this sentiment. BLM, Ray, Reilly, Burris, and BLM are the winning QB's, while the losing QB was Zach Collaros, Burris, BLM, BLM, Trevor Harris. Each of those losing QB's had strong seasons, or were the strongest QB in the division where they played (e.g., Collaros in 2014). So, not only do you need an elite or near-elite QB to win the Grey Cup, you need one to get there.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2018, 04:47:49 PM »

To me that's a big risk! Without a QB...you don't win.
Absolutely a big risk. We wouldn't be without a QB tho. We'd be without Nichols, but we'd have 2 younger, more talented QB's with more upside and 1 or 2 upgrades at other positions because of the money saved.
Strev. backed by Jennings or Franklin sounds like the recipe for a 6-win season to me.
I doubt that Nichols is the difference between a 6 win season and a 10 win season.
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Knocker42
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« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2018, 04:53:04 PM »

We wouldn't be without a QB tho. We'd be without Nichols, but we'd have 2 younger, more talented QB's with more upside and 1 or 2

You got one thing right - they would be younger.

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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2018, 04:53:20 PM »

I agree with this sentiment. BLM, Ray, Reilly, Burris, and BLM are the winning QB's, while the losing QB was Zach Collaros, Burris, BLM, BLM, Trevor Harris. Each of those losing QB's had strong seasons, or were the strongest QB in the division where they played (e.g., Collaros in 2014). So, not only do you need an elite or near-elite QB to win the Grey Cup, you need one to get there.
There is no better example of this than Calvillo for the Als.   When he retired the Als have mostly struggled to replace him.   When he played for the Als they were pretty much a contender every season.   Nichols is the best of a long list of mostly failed Bomber QBs over the past two and a half decades.   A few exceptions were KJ and BP however they never delivered a Grey Cup in their appearances.   Calgary's D won the Grey Cup for them and BLM made just enough plays despite giving up two interceptions.

Having said that our D wasn't as dominant as Calgary's in the WF and they shut down our offence allowing 0 TDs.   Nichols had a poor game and BLM played well enough to complete 3 TD passes when it mattered.
Overall, they were just a better team and to beat them we would have had to play flawless football and out coach them....which we didn't do or were even close to it.  

If we lose Bighill and keep Nichols we will have a hard time just making the playoffs next season.    
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blueraid
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« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2018, 05:51:03 PM »

27 years and counting....WHY///It starts with coaching and then to the players....one of which the quarterback has been as elusive as finding good coaches....Hopefully...I say hopefully we have one in our midst NOW that we have to bring along...I think O'Shea is competent enough and IF he can drop this allegiance to near-do-wells and go with a future winner,Streveler...we might have a Cup in our sights..Losing a guy like Bighill won't help but it's not as important as starting with the most important cog on the team and that would be qb.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2018, 06:13:33 PM »

It is because they built IGF so far out of the way...

Every year, you have a chance to beat 8 other teams for a Grey Cup.  

Every time you flip a coin, it is 50/50 it comes up heads.  If you go 28 times and it comes up tails every time, does that mean it is more likely to come up heads the 29th time?

Historical precedence means nothing.  I know, the doomsayers love harping on 28 years, etc...  but over an extended time, we've won our share...


Appearances    Team    Wins    Losses    Win %
24    Winnipeg Blue Bombers    10    14    .417
23    Toronto Argonauts    17    6    .739
23    Edmonton Eskimos    14    9    .591
20    Hamilton Tiger-Cats    8    12    .400
19    Saskatchewan Roughriders    4    15    .211
18    Montreal Alouettes    7    11    .389
17    Calgary Stampeders    8    9    .470
10    BC Lions    6    4    .600
3    Ottawa Redblacks    1    2    .333

We have MORE GC appearances than anyone, only 3 active teams have a better winning percentage than us (Toronto, Edmonton and Calgary), and only Toronto and Edmonton have won more cups.  So, if you are wanting to pick an arbitratry time period to discuss... but again, it doesn't make any sense.

We have a management group that has had a limited timespan so far, and started from worse than scratch.  We are a piece or two, a good bounce or two away from a championships, and have built an organization that looks to be a contender every year going forward.

On the other hand, look at Toronto.  From GC victory to outhouse in one year.  Look at BC and their struggles... Montreal...

I can't say that I'm not disappointed that we didn't end the drought this year, but save me the drama of "why haven't they won in 28 years"...  we have ten cups.  SSK has 4.  Sure, they've won one more recently, but we've won 2.5 times more cups.  

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« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2018, 06:33:11 PM »

This team just completed its third consecutive 10+-win season. That hadn't happened in a long, long time. We've made giant strides as a franchise. As a previous poster articulated, playoff wins don't just take care of themselves. The foundation for long-term success has been built. The franchise needs to take it to the next level.

The nearly unprecedented league-wide free agent situation is a great opportunity and also a huge potential danger. Nevertheless, Kyle Walters, you're on the clock and it is ticking loudly. You can only matriculate the ball down the field for so long. Must score big eventually, and that time is here.
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« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2018, 06:46:07 PM »

I am excited and somewhat concerned about the upcoming FA class.  Everyone has a passel of FA's, and a limited budget to sign them with. 

Walters seemed to navigate those waters pretty well last year.  He resigned most of the team, losing Westerman to a deal that was silly, and moved on from Bond, JFG, Heath.  Roh, Fenner, Gaitor, Demski all contributed nicely, without breaking the bank. 

Hopefully Walters and OShea/Lapo/Hall identify the players and budgets they need to have in place to make the team even better than last year.
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« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2018, 10:55:19 PM »

BLM had pretty pedestrian numbers that day too. He was clutch though.

Rogers was actually the clutch one that day.

I recall Randle stating that their coverage depended on whether Rogers was going to be a threat or not. In their game at IGF he wasn?t 100% yet, so he didn?t require any extra attention. But with him getting the extra week of rest proved deadly for the Bomber DB?s. I remember thinking to myself leading up to the last week of the season that it would be better to face the Stamps in the WSF so they don?t get the extra week to rest & prepare. I?m sure it helped Mitchell & Matthews get more in sync too.
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« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2018, 10:58:35 PM »

To win a Grey Cup IMO we need to finish in first place, possibly second. I truly believe that we are only a couple of pieces away. We need to improve our return game so that we're not always starting in bad field position and we could use another receiver. As for Nichols I may be in the minority here but I'm not willing to give up on him yet. I'm hoping that he just had an off season because he came back too soon from the knee injury. At worst we use Streveler more often. I'd rather go to him than either Franklin or Jennings. Of course if we could get Reilly that changes everything but realistically I don't think that will happen.
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Knocker42
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« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2018, 11:23:55 PM »

To win a Grey Cup IMO we need to finish in first place, possibly second. I truly believe that we are only a couple of pieces away. We need to improve our return game so that we're not always starting in bad field position and we could use another receiver. As for Nichols I may be in the minority here but I'm not willing to give up on him yet. I'm hoping that he just had an off season because he came back too soon from the knee injury. At worst we use Streveler more often. I'd rather go to him than either Franklin or Jennings. Of course if we could get Reilly that changes everything but realistically I don't think that will happen.

I think you are right.  Unless we get Reilly or Mitchell, and that's unlikely, Nichols is our future, for next year and possibly 2020.
I suspect the knee was more of a problem than we will ever know.  Although he was never the most mobile QB, he was definitely less able to escape after the injury than he was last season.  Thus the increased emphasis on short passes.
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Nic16
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« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2018, 12:13:53 AM »

I think you are right.  Unless we get Reilly or Mitchell, and that's unlikely, Nichols is our future, for next year and possibly 2020.
I suspect the knee was more of a problem than we will ever know.  Although he was never the most mobile QB, he was definitely less able to escape after the injury than he was last season.  Thus the increased emphasis on short passes.

Just based on the recent GC winning teams and their starting QB?s, if BC sign Reilly and BLM heads south, the BB & BC would have to be considered the favourites to win the West... unless of course Huf pulls out another ace QB out of his butt.

Let?s face it, Nichols isn?t going to give the BB fans any more confidence or put more butts in the seats, but outside of convincing Reilly to sign here, he?s currently the best option we have heading into 2019.
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« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2018, 12:56:50 AM »

If BLM goes to the NFL, then Nichols moves up to the 4th best QB in the league.

If Reilly goes to BC or Calgary or even Regina, they are better than us. If he stays in Edmonton, they will need to fix their O line and defense to be better than us.

Nichols isn't winning us games. It's Harris, the O line and the defense that are doing that. Nichols job is to simply not give the game away. At $450K that's a very small ask of our QB.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2018, 01:11:24 AM »

If BLM goes to the NFL, then Nichols moves up to the 4th best QB in the league.

If Reilly goes to BC or Calgary or even Regina, they are better than us. If he stays in Edmonton, they will need to fix their O line and defense to be better than us.

Nichols isn't winning us games. It's Harris, the O line and the defense that are doing that. Nichols job is to simply not give the game away. At $450K that's a very small ask of our QB.

At $450k, he really should be doing more than just not giving the game away.  Which, if you remember, he actually did a lot of this year. 

Good guy, warrior, leader... game manager who doesn't want to be called a game manager. 

Maybe if he took ownership of that title, and actually stopped trying to be who he is not, he'd have more fans.  If he took ownership of when he sucks, gave an honest assessment of his failures, maybe he'd have more fans.  If he came to a presser with something better than "There was really only one pass I missed" after going 15 for 32 with his full receiving corps, Andrew Harris and our Oline...

But he's not going to win you a GC.  Like Hurl couldn't steal a game for you. 

OMG, is Nichols our offensive Hurl?  A player that "fills the holes" and doesn't do anything really special, but doesn't lose you a game... at least not often. 
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« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2018, 02:29:12 AM »

I am hoping we can ?reinvest? our $450k and lure a BLM or MR here and get value for the QBs $$ we re spending
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« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2018, 02:30:35 AM »

At $450k, he really should be doing more than just not giving the game away.  Which, if you remember, he actually did a lot of this year. 

Good guy, warrior, leader... game manager who doesn't want to be called a game manager. 

Maybe if he took ownership of that title, and actually stopped trying to be who he is not, he'd have more fans.  If he took ownership of when he sucks, gave an honest assessment of his failures, maybe he'd have more fans.  If he came to a presser with something better than "There was really only one pass I missed" after going 15 for 32 with his full receiving corps, Andrew Harris and our Oline...

But he's not going to win you a GC.  Like Hurl couldn't steal a game for you. 

OMG, is Nichols our offensive Hurl?  A player that "fills the holes" and doesn't do anything really special, but doesn't lose you a game... at least not often. 
I still say that if the Bombers can win a Grey Cup with Sean Salisbury they can win one with Matt Nichols. Now there was a selfish player.
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« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2018, 02:35:30 AM »

We need a killer defense like we had when Salisbury was here...we don't have that so we need better production out of the Qb spot, especially for the cash we're paying. Go out and get Mike Reilly or BLM and our problems are solved.
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« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2018, 01:37:13 PM »

At $450k, he really should be doing more than just not giving the game away.  Which, if you remember, he actually did a lot of this year. 

Good guy, warrior, leader... game manager who doesn't want to be called a game manager. 

Maybe if he took ownership of that title, and actually stopped trying to be who he is not, he'd have more fans.  If he took ownership of when he sucks, gave an honest assessment of his failures, maybe he'd have more fans.  If he came to a presser with something better than "There was really only one pass I missed" after going 15 for 32 with his full receiving corps, Andrew Harris and our Oline...

But he's not going to win you a GC.  Like Hurl couldn't steal a game for you. 

OMG, is Nichols our offensive Hurl?  A player that "fills the holes" and doesn't do anything really special, but doesn't lose you a game... at least not often. 

Give the histrionics a rest.

People seem to forget it was Walters who gave him that absurd contract. That's solely on Walters for making that piss-poor decision.
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« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2018, 02:25:27 PM »

Give the histrionics a rest.

People seem to forget it was Walters who gave him that absurd contract. That's solely on Walters for making that piss-poor decision.

And the option was???

The contract was given with the assumption it would be earned.  That Nichols had turned the corner and was on his way to elite status.  He, unfortuntely, got injured and never returned to form until fairly late in the season, when he embraced ball security, lost any gunslinger in his game, and stopped giving games away.  Got some wins, sure, but not with play commensurate with his pay. 

Walters signed the deal, sure.  And he had an expectation that Nichols would be a top QB in the league this season.  Just didn't work out that way.

If e can't get a top QB, and we go into 2019 with Nichols, I really think he needs to renegotiate his deal so that we can sign Bighill.  They are on the books at $625k for the pair,  Take Nichols to $375k, and bump Bighill to $250k.  And if he earns a new deal at his old salary for next year, awesome...
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« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2018, 02:27:20 PM »

I don't know what happened to Nichols in 2018. Maybe it was the early injury? Maybe it was at least part of the issue with receivers.

In 2017 his year end stats had him tied at # 1 with 71% completion rate. 28 TD to 8 ints and the highest efficiency rating at 103.8. We finished in 2nd place.

That was more than a game manager last year.

No doubt all of us would prefer BLM or Reilly but that isn't likely to happen.
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« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2018, 03:09:11 PM »

I don't know what happened to Nichols in 2018. Maybe it was the early injury? Maybe it was at least part of the issue with receivers.

In 2017 his year end stats had him tied at # 1 with 71% completion rate. 28 TD to 8 ints and the highest efficiency rating at 103.8. We finished in 2nd place.

That was more than a game manager last year.

No doubt all of us would prefer BLM or Reilly but that isn't likely to happen.

Personally I think he just over preformed in 2017
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2018, 03:23:18 PM »

Personally I think he just over preformed in 2017

Perhaps but perhaps he just under performed in 2018? His 2016 stats weren't horrible. The team has won more games in the last 3 years than nearly every team except Calgary.

It's a question of options and are there any better ones?
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« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2018, 05:04:14 PM »

Perhaps but perhaps he just under performed in 2018? His 2016 stats weren't horrible. The team has won more games in the last 3 years than nearly every team except Calgary.

It's a question of options and are there any better ones?

I'm really hoping Nichols takes this past year to heart and comes to T.C. next season in top condition ready to rip the league apart from the git go.  He's got more critics now than ever and if that's what he uses to motivate himself, he should have plenty of fuel in his belly.
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« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2018, 05:16:32 PM »

Are you suggesting that Nichols was not in good shape at the start of camp or that he needs to fully recover from the knee issue he suffered this year?  I believe it hampered his mobility throughout the season and that is one reason we may have over-relied on short passes.  We'll probably never know if that is true but let's hope the issue is far behind him come next season.
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« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2018, 06:28:20 PM »

Are you suggesting that Nichols was not in good shape at the start of camp or that he needs to fully recover from the knee issue he suffered this year?  I believe it hampered his mobility throughout the season and that is one reason we may have over-relied on short passes.  We'll probably never know if that is true but let's hope the issue is far behind him come next season.

I'm talking mostly about his mental condition and coming into next season with no complacency, he should take no comfort with the season he just laid out punctuated by a poor performance in the W.F.  The team was at 5 and 7 going into week 15 which is just not good enough to secure a home playoff game later on.  I'm sure his knee could have been an issue as he had much better running stats. in 2017 than last season 188 yds. vs. 52 yds. and mostly looked clumsy, tentative and nervous when given the opportunity to run.  I'm not sure if the knee played into his passing ability as well but it could have.
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« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2018, 06:43:57 PM »

While we were on a winning streak at the end of the year, it wasn't because of Nichols stellar play.  If he's going to be the QB or our team and win by managing the game, that's great.  If Lapo uses him that way, and we have the horses to do it, awesome.  I have no problem with that.  But is that worth $450k (almost 10% of our SMS) and not having the bucks to sign players he needs around him?

That's my issue... that game plan means he's earning a solid QB wage, maybe $350k...  of the $320k BLM apparently got last year for "managing" his team to a GC win...
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« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2018, 07:26:03 PM »

And the option was???

How about negotiate a better contract? You know, one primary role of a GM.

As you just said in reply #58, is his salary worth what he brings to the table? Not at all. Walters is the one responsible for offering him that outlandish contract.
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« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2018, 07:33:56 PM »

If it is true that his $450k is so much more than elite QBs in the league are making, it does seem a bit out of line.  However, we must remember what the situation was when he came here.  It probably would not have seemed like a plum job at the time and it may well have been necessary to pay over the odds to get him here.  He may not have done what Reilly and Mitchell have this season, but we would be in trouble without him.  As some others have mentioned, it is possible that privately owned teams can find ways to sweeten the pot; ways that are difficult for publicly owned ones to match.


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blue girl
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« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2018, 07:35:06 PM »

I'm talking mostly about his mental condition and coming into next season with no complacency, he should take no comfort with the season he just laid out punctuated by a poor performance in the W.F.  The team was at 5 and 7 going into week 15 which is just not good enough to secure a home playoff game later on.  I'm sure his knee could have been an issue as he had much better running stats. in 2017 than last season 188 yds. vs. 52 yds. and mostly looked clumsy, tentative and nervous when given the opportunity to run.  I'm not sure if the knee played into his passing ability as well but it could have.
I agree with you about his mental condition. People have forgotten that in 2016 and 2017 this team won more games than they lost with a defence that statistically wasn't that good. Nichols didn't just become a bad QB. I believe that the knee injury affected him mentally as well as physically. I'm hoping that he wants to prove all the naysayers wrong and comes to camp ready to prove them all wrong. I will say that I'm tired of everybody blaming only Nichols for the WF loss. The OL did not have their best game and IMO LaPo called a very bland game. As for the contract that Nichols signed, don't blame him that one is on Walters. I don't blame Nichols. He saw a chance for financial security and took it. As for being able to afford both Bighill and Nichols, as I said in another thread according to Bob Irving last night the Bombers are willing to pay him whatever he wants. They won't be outbid by anybody. Obviously Kyle Walters must have a plan.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2018, 08:09:21 PM »

While we were on a winning streak at the end of the year, it wasn't because of Nichols stellar play.  If he's going to be the QB or our team and win by managing the game, that's great.  If Lapo uses him that way, and we have the horses to do it, awesome.  I have no problem with that.  But is that worth $450k (almost 10% of our SMS) and not having the bucks to sign players he needs around him?

That's my issue... that game plan means he's earning a solid QB wage, maybe $350k...  of the $320k BLM apparently got last year for "managing" his team to a GC win...

That's about what the Riders had to pay the "ghost of Zach Collaros" for the past season's work simply because they had no other options available.  So it's not so easy to play hardball with the QB's agent when many other teams lacking a solid QB option would jump at the chance to steal Nichols away.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2018, 08:19:33 PM »

How about negotiate a better contract? You know, one primary role of a GM.

As you just said in reply #58, is his salary worth what he brings to the table? Not at all. Walters is the one responsible for offering him that outlandish contract.

Yes he did, and Nichols did not earn it.  He could have, he just didin't.

Offering to let him continue on that deal, not sure what the options will be once FA hits, but Nichols might want to rejigger his deal if he wants Walters out of the QB market...  Because if something better becomes available, his $450k salary will be an issue, because it won't take a lot on top of that to land even the best QB in the league.

I guess some of that depends on roster bonuses.  Not sure if the league directive about not paying bonuses while the CBA is being negotiated includes not honoring roster bonuses on contracts in place... not sure if not having a CBA changes the status of contracts...
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« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2018, 08:34:51 PM »

That's about what the Riders had to pay the "ghost of Zach Collaros" for the past season's work simply because they had no other options available.  So it's not so easy to play hardball with the QB's agent when many other teams lacking a solid QB option would jump at the chance to steal Nichols away.

Now that Jennings has declared he is going to FA, you can bet option 1 for the Riders will be Reilly with option 2 being Jennings. The Bombers will stand pat as we always do and watch other teams get better, see Matthews and Grant signings by Calgary for reference.
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« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2018, 08:46:57 PM »

Yes he did, and Nichols did not earn it.  He could have, he just didn't.

Offering to let him continue on that deal, not sure what the options will be once FA hits, but Nichols might want to rejigger his deal if he wants Walters out of the QB market...  Because if something better becomes available, his $450k salary will be an issue, because it won't take a lot on top of that to land even the best QB in the league.

I guess some of that depends on roster bonuses.  Not sure if the league directive about not paying bonuses while the CBA is being negotiated includes not honoring roster bonuses on contracts in place... not sure if not having a CBA changes the status of contracts...

Moot point. Walters is the one who gambled and it ultimately blew up his face. And now he has to be the one to convince Nichols to re-negotiate.

Regardless of what happens in free agency, that contract has to be reworked. It's not even a remotely reasonable contract at this point.

The Bombers will stand pat as we always do and watch other teams get better...

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2018, 08:57:03 PM »

Do forget that 1 player's agent is the agent for about 4 QBs heading into free agency...that will make things interesting as well.
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« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2018, 10:30:46 PM »

Walters has a history of paying players big bucks before they have proven they are worth it. Willy, Nichols, Demski just to name a few. One of the worst things that Walters does IMO.
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« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2018, 12:03:41 AM »

I doubt that Nichols is the difference between a 6 win season and a 10 win season.

I understand the sentiment behind this but I want to push back on it.

  • Before Nichols was the starter, in 2014 the Bombers were 7-11, and in 2015 they were 5-13.
  • Nichols became the starter in 2016 when the Bombers were 1-3 (or 1-4?) and finished the season 11-7. In 2017, they went 12-6 and when Nichols was hurt for a game against Calgary, everyone panicked because his replacement was so much worse. In 2018, the Bombers went 10-8 but Nichols hurt the first three games, so his record is 9-6.

Now, of course the Bombers have made changes between 2014/2015 and today. Many changes for the positive. But to say that Nichols hasn't made much difference independent of what would have happened anyhow is overstating it.
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Blue In Edmonton
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« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2018, 02:57:08 AM »

I understand the sentiment behind this but I want to push back on it.

  • Before Nichols was the starter, in 2014 the Bombers were 7-11, and in 2015 they were 5-13.
  • Nichols became the starter in 2016 when the Bombers were 1-3 (or 1-4?) and finished the season 11-7. In 2017, they went 12-6 and when Nichols was hurt for a game against Calgary, everyone panicked because his replacement was so much worse. In 2018, the Bombers went 10-8 but Nichols hurt the first three games, so his record is 9-6.

Now, of course the Bombers have made changes between 2014/2015 and today. Many changes for the positive. But to say that Nichols hasn't made much difference independent of what would have happened anyhow is overstating it.

This. Exactly. The targeting of Nichols around here is actually getting difficult to read. Without Matt Nichols, the Walters/MOS regime would be long gone and we'd be Montreal.
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« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2018, 11:38:03 AM »

IMO we roll with Nichols next year as the starter, we don't bid on any QB's on the free market. We instead attempt to keep, Chungh, Goossen, Bryant, Hardrick,  Bighill, JSK and Loffler, as again IMO we are a better team with that core and Nichols than with say Reilly and loosing two or three of that core. As to the QB play Let Nichols have the team with Streveler continuing to nip at his heels. Keep grooming Streveler in 19 and see how he does. Maybe just maybe he will be ready to take the reins in 2020?

As as side note we complain about $450 for Nichols at 4-5th best QB in the league. That puts 3-4 qb's better than him. So if we look, Mtrl, T.O, Sask, Edm, BC, at least 3 or 4 of those teams will be looking for a QB, and based of the simple supply and demand theory those top QB's say Reilly that do hit the open market will be coveted big time, which means a potential "silly" salary.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2018, 01:15:49 PM »

I understand the sentiment behind this but I want to push back on it.

  • Before Nichols was the starter, in 2014 the Bombers were 7-11, and in 2015 they were 5-13.
  • Nichols became the starter in 2016 when the Bombers were 1-3 (or 1-4?) and finished the season 11-7. In 2017, they went 12-6 and when Nichols was hurt for a game against Calgary, everyone panicked because his replacement was so much worse. In 2018, the Bombers went 10-8 but Nichols hurt the first three games, so his record is 9-6.

Now, of course the Bombers have made changes between 2014/2015 and today. Many changes for the positive. But to say that Nichols hasn't made much difference independent of what would have happened anyhow is overstating it.
If your point is that Nichols is better than Willy, then I agree. If your point is that Nichols was a positive difference maker in 2017, then I agree.

If your point is that wins mean that the QB is playing well, then I have to push back. I can only think of one game this year that Nichols was a positive difference maker and that was his 300 yard game. In 2 games against Regina, and more, he was a negative difference maker. The Riders won more games than we did and like us, it certainly wasn't because of the quality of their QB play.

We win because of turnovers, short fields, Andrew Harris, our OL and a defense who mostly played great over the last 6 weeks of the season. All Nichols did, in most games, was throw for 175 to 250 yards a game and not turn the ball over. That's enough for us to win because the rest of the team is good enough to win without great QB play.
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« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2018, 07:30:58 PM »

If your point is that Nichols is better than Willy, then I agree. If your point is that Nichols was a positive difference maker in 2017, then I agree.

If your point is that wins mean that the QB is playing well, then I have to push back. I can only think of one game this year that Nichols was a positive difference maker and that was his 300 yard game. In 2 games against Regina, and more, he was a negative difference maker. The Riders won more games than we did and like us, it certainly wasn't because of the quality of their QB play.

We win because of turnovers, short fields, Andrew Harris, our OL and a defense who mostly played great over the last 6 weeks of the season. All Nichols did, in most games, was throw for 175 to 250 yards a game and not turn the ball over. That's enough for us to win because the rest of the team is good enough to win without great QB play.

This is a very balanced post and pretty fair.  I guess it all hinges on what one would call "great Qb play".  For me, its not about 300 yd games, its about playing within the system and being effective.

It is fair to say that Nichols in 2018 was not as strong as 2017 when he led the league in passing efficiency and was second in QUAR. But even with his little slump this year, the stats still show the essential fact:  There were 5 bona fide starting level QBs in 2018 and a bunch of band-aids, back-ups and unrealized potential. 

I think everyone agrees that Reilly and Mitchell are better QBs.  Personally, I would take Nichols ahead of Harris or Masoli, but can see how others might disagree.  Projecting any other QB ahead of Nichols is purely speculative. 
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« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2018, 08:07:13 PM »

I can't help but wonder what 2018 would have looked like if Nichols wasn't injured. I'm not so sure we would have won more games where he was out (although perhaps that first Edmonton game in the Thunderstorm of the Century, going 2-1), but I wonder if Nichols' play would have been significantly more polished to where he both would have picked up where he left off in 2017 (I called him an elite QB back then), and also would not have had stinkers, propelling us to have won games certainly within reach such as that second BC game, LDC and BB. If that were true, I think we could have won the WF. And I don't think that's just because Nichols would have played better, but because he would have had enough faith from Lapo to use him more effectively than he was (which was my main problem with that game).
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2018, 08:11:06 PM »

If Nichols was making $100K less, I'd want to keep him for sure.

If Streveler wasn't our backup, I'd want to keep Nichols even with the stupid contract. That's not to say that I think Streveler is a lock to be the next great CFL QB. I like what I've seen so far and I think he could win enough games with our team to get us to the playoffs next year, but I'd want to bring in another young QB with upside to hedge my bet. We'd likely have an extra $100K or so to upgrade another position.

As Nichols was only a difference maker in one game after the Montreal game, I wonder if we'd have won as many games with Streveler starting.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2018, 08:55:57 PM »

If Nichols was making $100K less, I'd want to keep him for sure.

If Streveler wasn't our backup, I'd want to keep Nichols even with the stupid contract. That's not to say that I think Streveler is a lock to be the next great CFL QB. I like what I've seen so far and I think he could win enough games with our team to get us to the playoffs next year, but I'd want to bring in another young QB with upside to hedge my bet. We'd likely have an extra $100K or so to upgrade another position.

As Nichols was only a difference maker in one game after the Montreal game, I wonder if we'd have won as many games with Streveler starting.

Streveler win loss was 1 - 3 in his 4 starts. Not all on him but IMO we'd have won less games with him starting more games. OTOH it could have been said that it would have better prepared him to become a starter.

The problem is that no team will throw away a season and hope it pays off " later ".
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Blue In Edmonton
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« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2018, 09:37:36 PM »

If this was the 2015 Bombers, heading into 2016, and Chris Streveler had 4 starts and some significant spot duty under his belt, then I'd be all in on the "make Streveler the starter now and endure the growing pains" path. But we're not the 2015 Bombers. We are not hoping to make the playoffs finally. We are the 2018 Bombers heading into 2019 having won 10+ games in each of the last three seasons. We have a roster (pending FA of course) of talented Canadian players at both skill and grunt positions. We are one of the top teams in the league. The expectations are to win a championship.

If the team decides to go with Streveler, notwithstanding how good he looked in the limited packages that were designed for him, I can't help but think that the team goes backwards.

Now the caveat to this is such: As a long-time fan of the Kansas City Chiefs, I wasn't exactly sure that letting Patrick Mahomes have the reigns this year was going to be good in the immediate short term.

Could Streveler be the CFL's Mahomes? I've often compared Nichols to Alex Smith.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2018, 01:51:57 PM »

Could Streveler be the CFL's Mahomes? I've often compared Nichols to Alex Smith.

Maybe. But to find out, Walters and co. better get him all the weapons he needs to maximize his chances. The receiving corps needs an upgrade.

I agree on the Nichols and Smith comparison. It's pretty spot on, IMO.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2018, 11:03:08 PM »

So let's look at Strevelers record of 1-4.

L to Edmonton when the D couldn't stop a beach ball.
W over Montreal. Streveler put up 56 points.
L to Hamilton. The whole team was terrible.
L to Edmonton when we were playing our 2nd. and 3rd string players against there starters. Also Streveler only played the 1st. half.
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dd
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« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2018, 11:45:32 PM »

If this was the 2015 Bombers, heading into 2016, and Chris Streveler had 4 starts and some significant spot duty under his belt, then I'd be all in on the "make Streveler the starter now and endure the growing pains" path. But we're not the 2015 Bombers. We are not hoping to make the playoffs finally. We are the 2018 Bombers heading into 2019 having won 10+ games in each of the last three seasons. We have a roster (pending FA of course) of talented Canadian players at both skill and grunt positions. We are one of the top teams in the league. The expectations are to win a championship.

If the team decides to go with Streveler, notwithstanding how good he looked in the limited packages that were designed for him, I can't help but think that the team goes backwards.

Now the caveat to this is such: As a long-time fan of the Kansas City Chiefs, I wasn't exactly sure that letting Patrick Mahomes have the reigns this year was going to be good in the immediate short term.

Could Streveler be the CFL's Mahomes? I've often compared Nichols to Alex Smith.
agree that the 2018 bomber roster is much stronger and in better position than when Walters took over, HOWEVER, we still struggle at the Qb and #1 receiver position...we solve those problems, we ll have ourselves a Grey Cup, until then, we'll be competitive but not good enough to win it.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #80 on: November 30, 2018, 12:54:15 AM »

If Nichols was making $100K less, I'd want to keep him for sure.

If Streveler wasn't our backup, I'd want to keep Nichols even with the stupid contract. That's not to say that I think Streveler is a lock to be the next great CFL QB. I like what I've seen so far and I think he could win enough games with our team to get us to the playoffs next year, but I'd want to bring in another young QB with upside to hedge my bet. We'd likely have an extra $100K or so to upgrade another position.

As Nichols was only a difference maker in one game after the Montreal game, I wonder if we'd have won as many games with Streveler starting.

That would be a huge gamble for Walters to take, no logical reason to endanger the entire mother-ship betting on a rookie in order to save an extra $100k.  I predict Nichols will put up another 10+ win season next year, if he does so, how do you justify dumping him?  If he doesn't play well, fine Streveller has his window of opportunity to steal the job.  He had a window in the second half of the Banjo Bowl and almost perfectly duplicated Nichols poor performance. 

NICHOLS, Matt   10/20   50.0%   165   0   3   38
STREVELER, Chris   10/20   50.0%   160   1   2   40
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 01:12:29 AM by Throw Long Bannatyne » Logged
Blue In BC
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« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2018, 01:02:17 AM »

So let's look at Strevelers record of 1-4.

L to Edmonton when the D couldn't stop a beach ball.
W over Montreal. Streveler put up 56 points.
L to Hamilton. The whole team was terrible.
L to Edmonton when we were playing our 2nd. and 3rd string players against there starters. Also Streveler only played the 1st. half.

Many of the losses Nichols had the defense couldn't stop a beach ball either.

Either way. A win or a loss is never only on the QB. You're willing to give Streveler a pass on his losses but seem to want to put all the blame on Nichols for his losses.

It's a team game.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2018, 01:03:36 AM »

That would be a huge gamble for Walters to take, no logical reason to endanger the entire mother-ship betting on a rookie to save an extra $100k.  I predict Nichols will put up another 10+ win season next year, if he does, how to you justify dumping him?  If he doesn't play well, fine, Streveller has his window of opportunity to steal the job.

We just barely made the play offs with Nichols and 10 wins. How can you predict how many wins we'll get or need in 2019?
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2018, 01:11:28 AM »

We just barely made the play offs with Nichols and 10 wins. How can you predict how many wins we'll get or need in 2019?

I don't consider this past season to be a good example of what this team or Nichols can achieve, and I expect they will play better next season.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 01:43:02 AM by Throw Long Bannatyne » Logged
dd
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« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2018, 03:27:18 AM »

Many of the losses Nichols had the defense couldn't stop a beach ball either.

Either way. A win or a loss is never only on the QB. You're willing to give Streveler a pass on his losses but seem to want to put all the blame on Nichols for his losses.

It's a team game.
Let?s not sugar coat things or sweep dirt under the carpet here...Ya, it?s a team game, but when we had our losing streak this past season, Nichols absolutely stunk the joint out and literally gave the riders the banjo bowl.
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Cool Spot
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« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2018, 04:11:00 AM »

If your point is that Nichols is better than Willy, then I agree. If your point is that Nichols was a positive difference maker in 2017, then I agree.

Great, then it seems like we're 60-70% aligned!

Quote
We win because of turnovers, short fields, Andrew Harris, our OL and a defense who mostly played great over the last 6 weeks of the season. All Nichols did, in most games, was throw for 175 to 250 yards a game and not turn the ball over. That's enough for us to win because the rest of the team is good enough to win without great QB play.

And this is where we diverge.

Turnovers, short fields, Andrew Harris, and our OL are why I don't worry too much that Nichols doesn't have many 300+ yards. There are other strategies the Bombers can use to win, and you mention them, and a high-passing QB is not a pre-requirement. What I think matters more is low interceptions (cough, Kevin Glenn, cough), because as you say, the two Sask games were more-or-less caused by Nichols with all those interceptions.

Now, I will certainly grant you that Nichols isn't blowing the lights out; I will say he's controlling the game well enough to win and to me that's good enough. But as long as we're laying blame, I'd say the Bombers special teams this year was a far greater concern, continually giving up field position due to a lack of kick return gains, and giving up too many on their own kick returns and losing the field position battle. I'd say that's a bigger problem to remedy than anything Nichols is responsible for.

I understand your point, but I think it's overstated relative to other areas that need addressing first, and the fact that the Bombers' offense doesn't rely upon a high-passing, dominating QB.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2018, 04:23:17 AM »

So it's a double standard, when Streveler starts and the team loses it is fault, but Nichols starts and the team loses it's the teams fault.
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Bluehawk
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« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2018, 04:46:37 AM »

Its quite simple.
Nichols is a good quarterback
Unless we have a lights out defence we need a great quarterback to win.
BLM was great...they won.
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kkc60
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« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2018, 05:35:02 AM »

I don't consider this past season to be a good example of what this team or Nichols can achieve, and I expect they will play better next season.


But really so much more falls into that than just Nichols. Other teams will improve. This past year we finished with a D that could win a cup and an offence that couldn't. Past 2 years? The opposite.

Statistically, and just simply looking at it, Nichols regressed. Sure you could argue it was a down year. But remember when Collaros was a year in year out MVP favorite? Or when Jennings was a guy who some thought might go to the NFL or be one of the leagues top QBs? Things happen. Some guys play into their late 30s and other top out after a couple years
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2018, 01:13:58 PM »

So it's a double standard, when Streveler starts and the team loses it is fault, but Nichols starts and the team loses it's the teams fault.

No, it's not. It's a team game regardless of who's starting behind centre. Nobody gets a pass.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2018, 01:57:39 PM »

Nichols regressed last year. I thought we were in huge trouble when Nichols went down to injury early, but Streveler hung in there and played better than anyone could have expected him to. I doubt that we'd have won (m)any less games with Streveler as our starting QB than we did with Nichols.

Wins are a team, not a QB stat. That goes for both QB's. The first game loss was mostly on the defense. The last game loss was mostly on the fact we started a bunch of 2nd and 3rd stringers. The 2 big losses to Regina were mostly on Nichols turnovers.

100K is a big deal. It's the difference between being able to offer 5 players 20K more each, which should result in being able to attract better players in other positions or it could mean a couple of big time FA's like Burhnam and Bighill.

I do focus on how the QB plays in each game. 300 yards does matter. It's one of the ways to tell how well the QB and receivers are playing. Nichols managed 300 yard games in 2017 when he was playing well but only got 1 in 2018 when he wasn't playing that well.

I don't focus as much on low interception numbers as most here do. I'd rather go down swinging and take some chances with 50-50 balls than throwing the ball away every time the QB sees something he doesn't like. I know that means more int's as well as more big plays and more 300 yard games.

Replacing Nichols doesn't mean we'd go back to Willy-esc QB'ing and it doesn't change the rest of the team. Turnovers, Harris, the O line and the defense would still be the main reasons that we win. The differences would be that we'd have some better talent because we could afford it. We'd likely take more risks, have more Int's and more TD's. We'd likely win as much as we do now and we'd be set up for more wins if Streveler progresses.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2018, 02:19:17 PM »

Let?s not sugar coat things or sweep dirt under the carpet here...Ya, it?s a team game, but when we had our losing streak this past season, Nichols absolutely stunk the joint out and literally gave the riders the banjo bowl.

It happened to every QB in some games this season. So suggest otherwise is absurd.  We all agree Nichols had some really really bad games and not a great season.

Did Reilly have a good season or did he even have a good game against us in the 2nd game we played them?

30 - 3 for the Bombers. Reilly 54.8% completion, 164 yards, no TD's 2 ints and a pic 6 IIRC. The Esks finished 5th in the west. Was none of that due to play at the QB position?

How about Harris is the GC with a low completion rate, 1 TD and 3 ints.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 02:36:09 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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theaardvark
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« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2018, 02:32:29 PM »

That would be a huge gamble for Walters to take, no logical reason to endanger the entire mother-ship betting on a rookie in order to save an extra $100k.  I predict Nichols will put up another 10+ win season next year, if he does so, how do you justify dumping him?  If he doesn't play well, fine Streveller has his window of opportunity to steal the job.  He had a window in the second half of the Banjo Bowl and almost perfectly duplicated Nichols poor performance. 

NICHOLS, Matt   10/20   50.0%   165   0   3   38
STREVELER, Chris   10/20   50.0%   160   1   2   40

1 td, 2int is not a duplicate of o td 3 int...  not even close...

Unfortunately, its looking like the Hank Burriss situation,m either Smiling Hank or bad Frank shows up,,,  and that's not what you pay top dollar for. 

He had a horrible run of games, literally giving other teams wins.  Then he had a run where he managed games and didn't give it away, but really didn't light it up.

My biggest problem with him is he doesn't take responsibility for his messups.  He has no issues swaggering down the field when he throws a TD, but can't mea culpa when he craps the bed.  When you throw under 50% in a division final and can only find fault with one throw,,,

He needs to step up on both sides, and earn his full contract,   If that means renegotiating an incentive heavy deal, great.  That way, late in the season, if he hasn't been earning his keep, then we will have cap space to get the pieces we may need to overcome whatever hole we've been dug.
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BBRT
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« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2018, 02:41:27 PM »

1 td, 2int is not a duplicate of o td 3 int...  not even close...

Unfortunately, its looking like the Hank Burriss situation,m either Smiling Hank or bad Frank shows up,,,  and that's not what you pay top dollar for. 

He had a horrible run of games, literally giving other teams wins.  Then he had a run where he managed games and didn't give it away, but really didn't light it up.

My biggest problem with him is he doesn't take responsibility for his messups.  He has no issues swaggering down the field when he throws a TD, but can't mea culpa when he craps the bed.  When you throw under 50% in a division final and can only find fault with one throw,,,

He needs to step up on both sides, and earn his full contract,   If that means renegotiating an incentive heavy deal, great.  That way, late in the season, if he hasn't been earning his keep, then we will have cap space to get the pieces we may need to overcome whatever hole we've been dug.

They must be changing the water here in Calgary because I am starting to agree more and more with what Aards is saying. I agree 100% with his comments. My major grievance if you can call it that with MN is that he does not take responsibility for his bad play when it happens. The division final was IMHO the prime example. He IMHO stunk up the joint so to speak and took no responsibility for his play. Not a MN fan these days.
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2018, 04:16:26 PM »

They must be changing the water here in Calgary because I am starting to agree more and more with what Aards is saying.

It's Nenshi's budget cuts.  Water treatment only gets done on Tuesdays and Sundays.
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blue girl
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« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2018, 08:54:31 PM »

Here's why right now I would keep Nichols. Right now in the west we are the only team with a starting QB under contract. Jennings has said he's going to pursue free agency and I don't think that BC wants him back anyway. Even if Lulay does return he can't last a whole season. In Calgary BLM is going to test the NFL but if he doesn't get any good offers he will return to Calgary but nothing is guaranteed. Saskatchewan will probably move on from Collaros and Bridge. That leaves Edmonton and Reilly who apparently will take his time deciding what to do probably waiting until after the CBA is finalized. I think that BC and Edmonton will probably get into a bidding war. I still hope that Nichols problems were a one year thing caused by the knee injury. If after training camp and the preseason he still looks bad then we either trade or cut him and take our chances with Streveler.
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