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Author Topic: Jonathon Rose Suspended  (Read 5375 times)
Norm W
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« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2018, 05:31:17 PM »

In most situations the suspension or termination stands. The appeal if won would reinstate the individual with back pay. We see this all the time including in union situations. The fact this is sports shouldn't change that scenario.

If a police officer ( for example ) is thought to have done something wrong: He's either suspended or given desk duty. At times this may be for months or longer before final appeal decisions are concluded.

If Rose had pushed the ref in a pre season game would he have appealed missing the season opener due to a suspension.

This is all about not being able to play in the Grey Cup. It should be ONLY about abuse of an official.

You are 100% correct, this is about playing in the Grey Cup and the potential loss of $16,000.00 in play-off bonus money. If it happened during the pre-season he may have elected to not appeal and simply accept the disciplinary action, but it's his choice and that is the point. It's in the contract between the players and the league, he gets to choose.  But he can't make them play the game over if he wins his appeal...
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 05:33:29 PM by Norm W » Logged

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2018, 05:39:16 PM »

You are 100% correct, this is about playing in the Grey Cup and the potential loss of $16,000.00 in play-off bonus money. If it happened during the pre-season he may have elected to not appeal and simply accept the disciplinary action, but it's his choice and that is the point. It's in the contract between the players and the league, he gets to choose.  But he can't make them play the game over if he wins his appeal...


I'd be curious to see the wording in the CBA about the timing of a suspension compared to the appeal process.

Regardless this needs to be corrected in the new CBA. Whether that means a speedier appeal process or some other means, this is not acceptable.

A pre appointed group of defense ( CFLPA ) and prosecution candidates could be created and an appeal done inside a few days.

What if the ref had sustained a back injury or broke his arm due to the push? Perhaps he would have been scheduled to ref in the GC and couldn't as a result. Where do you draw the line?



« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 05:42:46 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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blue_gold_84
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Fort Hew


« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2018, 05:44:21 PM »

...and I gather you think you have the market cornered in intelligence? Sarcasm... tricky thing for some. So you don't agree with the way the appeal process is set up in most sports leagues, your opinion is noted. Which sport league processes do you like, which league has the best process? So if Roses name was replaced with yours, meaning you were in his shoes would your opinion change? I have yet to meet a unionized employee that won't exhaust every negotiated option that works in their favor when there is a grievance, including appeals.. regardless of how ridiculous the grievance actually is. An appeal process is a very basic component of a CBA, I'm actually shocked to hear a union person speak out against the employees right to an appeal and say he shouldn't get it.

How does being presumptuous qualify as being sarcastic? At least we know you have the market cornered on class, eh... Spare the ad hominem nonsense.

What chaps my hide in this particular situation is the fact the appeal process works as a catch-all when in all reality, it should not. In fact, I'd argue it's demonstrably flawed in this case. A player assaulted an official, which is about a heinous an act as an athlete commit on during a game. That's a giant faux-pas and Rose has ostensibly gotten away with it for the time being. How is that reasonable? And my being in his shoes or not is totally irrelevant. I will say this, though: in his shoes, I wouldn't be idiotic enough to shove an official.

Just because I support collective bargaining doesn't mean I support every aspect of it. Unions are far from perfect and this situation shines a bright light on the very fact, IMO. If I assaulted someone on the job, I'd get union backing, which is my right. But I'd also be suspended without pay pending an investigation. Why should professional athletes be any different, especially when you consider the spotlight and privilege in which they are employed? His disgusting action should come with immediate and serious consequences. The fact he gets to not only appeal his punishment but then continue to play in the Grey Cup while the appeal process runs its course is absolutely preposterous.

If there is a league that gets it right in this particular instance, it's the NHL. See the Wideman suspension back in 2016.

If Rose had pushed the ref in a pre season game would he have appealed missing the season opener due to a suspension.

This is all about not being able to play in the Grey Cup, the prestige and money that go with it. It should be ONLY about abuse of an official.

We could question whether the degree of severity changes the question as well. If a player actually punches a ref for example. IMO this falls into a more severe blatant abuse.

Needs to change in the new CBA.

Bingo.
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Norm W
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« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2018, 06:00:41 PM »

"Roughly a month and a half after the controversial incident, the Dennis Wideman appeal process is over. And the NHL disagrees with the outcome.

Independent arbitrator James Oldham chopped the NHL's 20-game suspension of the Calgary Flames defenceman in half Friday, making it a 10-game ban. Wideman won't get back the extra nine games he's sat out, but he will be reimbursed $282,258.06 in lost pay."

Source was Sportsnet

So it would seem the NHL got it wrong and their discipline was later decided to be too punitive. The appeal process corrected it after the fact by reimbursing the player in excess of 200 K in lost wages. Some would argue this is the very reason why the player should be able to continue to play until the appeal of one-sided arbitrary league decisions are heard.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 08:08:16 PM by Norm W » Logged

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bluengold204
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« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2018, 08:33:22 PM »

"Roughly a month and a half after the controversial incident, the Dennis Wideman appeal process is over. And the NHL disagrees with the outcome.

Independent arbitrator James Oldham chopped the NHL's 20-game suspension of the Calgary Flames defenceman in half Friday, making it a 10-game ban. Wideman won't get back the extra nine games he's sat out, but he will be reimbursed $282,258.06 in lost pay."

Source was Sportsnet

So it would seem the NHL got it wrong and their discipline was later decided to be too punitive. The appeal process corrected it after the fact by reimbursing the player in excess of 200 K in lost wages. Some would argue this is the very reason why the player should be able to continue to play until the appeal of one-sided arbitrary league decisions are heard.

Bingo.
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Tehedra
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« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2018, 08:49:59 PM »

"Roughly a month and a half after the controversial incident, the Dennis Wideman appeal process is over. And the NHL disagrees with the outcome.

Independent arbitrator James Oldham chopped the NHL's 20-game suspension of the Calgary Flames defenceman in half Friday, making it a 10-game ban. Wideman won't get back the extra nine games he's sat out, but he will be reimbursed $282,258.06 in lost pay."

Source was Sportsnet

So it would seem the NHL got it wrong and their discipline was later decided to be too punitive. The appeal process corrected it after the fact by reimbursing the player in excess of 200 K in lost wages. Some would argue this is the very reason why the player should be able to continue to play until the appeal of one-sided arbitrary league decisions is heard.

The same argument can be made that you will not always win an appeal process, and you might be expected to provide back pay.  You still can't have a possibly abusive employee among the ranks, which means they should be relieved of their duties until a decision has been made.  For example, if this was a teacher who beat a child in a classroom that was suspended without pay.  No one would agree that the teacher should be allowed back into the classroom and continue to teach until the appeal process was complete.  If the teacher was proven innocent, the expectation is that they would be paid for the time they were not teaching and possibly even more for the hardships they went through.  In this argument in football I would expect the same, if he wins the appeal process and it is proven that he did not, in fact, abuse the official with intent, then he should be paid what he is due, however, he shouldn't get to touch a football or step a foot on the field until that appeal process has been completed.  Why?  Because the referees have the right to a safe work environment and until that process is won, it is sending the message that their work environment isn't important.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2018, 09:30:02 PM »

OK, I think all sides should be outraged that Rose may get to play.

Ref's cannot allow the abuse of an official to be tolerated, and even have enforcement delayed until a more convenient for the league/player/team.  Yes, I get that you want the best players out there.  But there is a reason there are rules and penalties.

Players should be upset that Rose not only hit an official, but plowed that offical into a pile that had an injured fellow player at the bottom if it.  Had teh player suffered a neck injury (which I thought he had, Rose looked like he had ripped his fricking head off), then the puch of an official on top of the injured player could have paralized / killed him.  Players should not tolerate being painted with the same brush as Rose... you are all guilty by association. 
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dd
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« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2018, 10:10:11 PM »

Rose s tackle was an attempt to injure?he grabbed the player by the head and then propelled his body the player twisting his head and then Slamming him to the ground.  That was not a necessary roughness, that was rough play, which is a game expulsion in itself.  Then he push the official which gotten kicked out of the game.  No way, no how should rise be allowed to play in the Grey cup game  in a league to take both rough play in fractions into account during the appeal and be suspended for two games.
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buckzumhoff
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« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2018, 11:25:28 PM »

One game , might as well give him nothing. most leagues if you touch a referee youre probably gone for good for several games. \Ottawa even treated it like a joke. But Ottawas coach didn't like it when Carter walked by him few years ago and made a big halabaloo about it. and Campbell confronted Carter. Campbell and Ottawa are on taking some type of roid.
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blue_gold_84
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Fort Hew


« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2018, 02:35:31 AM »

"Roughly a month and a half after the controversial incident, the Dennis Wideman appeal process is over. And the NHL disagrees with the outcome.

Independent arbitrator James Oldham chopped the NHL's 20-game suspension of the Calgary Flames defenceman in half Friday, making it a 10-game ban. Wideman won't get back the extra nine games he's sat out, but he will be reimbursed $282,258.06 in lost pay."

Source was Sportsnet

So it would seem the NHL got it wrong and their discipline was later decided to be too punitive. The appeal process corrected it after the fact by reimbursing the player in excess of 200 K in lost wages. Some would argue this is the very reason why the player should be able to continue to play until the appeal of one-sided arbitrary league decisions are heard.

Way to miss the point.

The fact Wideman was suspended immediately and the league upheld it after his appeal is the difference you've failed to realize. It's not the length or the lost wages. It's the fact the NHL upheld his suspension for what he did, which was basically the same action as Rose's this past Sunday. And yet, he gets to appeal his suspension and that's that. It's ridiculous and indefensible.

Rose shouldn't be allowed to play this weekend, IMO. Of course he has the right to appeal to the suspension but the league needed to make a point and ensure safety of its officials is respected and acknowledged. In this particular set of circumstances, the league has failed. Rose does not deserve to play in the Grey Cup, nor does he deserve the extra money for it.

In Wideman's case, he still missed 10 games and one could argue that's getting off lightly for the dumb stunt he pulled. Lost wages can always be reimbursed, anyway. I applaud the NHL for actually having the teeth to put its foot down and send a message to its employees that abuse directed at officials will not be tolerated under any circumstances.

And this whole situation makes me wonder: how will the officials in charge of Sunday's game look at Rose? It wouldn't surprise me if he gets put under a microscope during the game.
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buckzumhoff
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« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2018, 05:26:50 AM »

The NHL knows the arbitrator will ask for less so the NHL gave him 20 and the NHL is ok with 10. Why the CFL asks for one game. I wonder if it was any other team, would they receive a one game suspension for running a referee.
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dd
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« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2018, 08:37:54 PM »

I don?t know what he?s appealing?? That he doesn?t deserve a measly game for pushing an official to the ground!?!

ThEre has to be validity to an appeal not just delaying the inevitable because he wants to collect the bonus money that goes with playing in the grey cup game. What a complete and total joke. Awesome job Ambrosie, you?ve lost a ton of respect over this
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In Motion
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« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2018, 08:45:58 PM »

That was a bad hit, but I say let him play in the Grey Cup.
Why?  Because I don't want to penalize the whole team and city
for the stupidity of one player in such a crucial game.
For this reason, I would show mercy for today, and then suspend him
for 3 regular season games.
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In Motion
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« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2018, 08:47:06 PM »

Absolutely.  I know they made the change because there were too many challenges but your point is well taken.  The team should not be punished because of a correctable call.  Retain the challenge every time the ruling favours the challenge.

Definitely!
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kkc60
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« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2018, 10:30:31 PM »

That was a bad hit, but I say let him play in the Grey Cup.
Why?  Because I don't want to penalize the whole team and city
for the stupidity of one player in such a crucial game.
For this reason, I would show mercy for today, and then suspend him
for 3 regular season games.
No offence but that's dumb. Penalize the city? Get a grip. He pushed an official. That's a no no. Should Tank Reed no have gotten called for holding in the GC years ago because taking back the TD would penalize the city?

He did what he did and thats on him. If he costed his team a GC then he gets to live with that.

Suspend him months later for 3 games? Uh no. What if he goes to a new team? Does that team deserve to lose a guy for 3 games because of something he did when he played for someone else? Or what if he was to go to the NFL or AAFL? Then he just gets away with it?

Today is another game. Same as last week just winner takes all. To pretend it's okay to push a ref because the next game is the GC is wrong on all levels. Rose should have thought before he fought
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