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December 19, 2018, 01:36:07 AM *
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Poll
Question: What should we do with Portage and Main
Open - 8 (40%)
Leave as is - 7 (35%)
Develop over/under passes - 5 (25%)
Total Voters: 20

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Author Topic: Portage and Main  (Read 2132 times)
bluengold204
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« Reply #75 on: November 27, 2018, 03:02:07 PM »

And those intersections do not have alternate crossing options, and have had fatalities. 

To make the corner a little more accessible to pedestrians, to shave a few minutes off a few people's "commute", you will be risking lives, and interrupting traffic, causing longer commutes and more pollution for thousands of people daily.  And, not only does it create an intersection where pedestrians are at risk, it also makes vehicular traffic more dangerous.  More accidents will happen, which will tie up traffic horribly. 

I sympathize with the people who the closed intersection inconveniences.  But I'm sorry, its just not worth the loss of time, money and lives.  There are alternatives, no one's life depends on crossing Portage and Main.  Many may want to, many may think it is their right, but it isn't...  if the city thinks that it is not worth the risk and expense... then there it is.

Loss of time - there was a study done that indicated it would cause a delay of 3-5 minutes during peak traffic times.  If you can't handle 5 extra minutes in your commute then I dunno what to say you are just unreasonable.

Money - As pointed out the city is going to have to spend money to fix the barricades and the underground walkway anyways.  Probably will be more expensive to open up Portage and Main but it isn't as expensive as people are making it out to be

Lives - Also pointed out by others, this is no different from any other intersection should we close down Lag and Regent or Moray and Portage?  They both have more vehicular traffic in those intersections than Portage and Main.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #76 on: November 27, 2018, 04:13:43 PM »

P&M has worked as it sits for decades. 

No doubt the underground could be made more friendly and reliable, with more options for the handicapable.  And, in doing so, it can be made accessable 24/7/365. 

I guess that is my biggest pet peeve about this.  We are in Winnipeg.  Any surface access is going to be subject to our weather, meaning a substantial portion of the time the intersection will be, at best, miserable to use.  And driving traffic above ground will make the subterranean routes even less attractive to be used, meaning a potential reduction of access that way.  If your only option in Dec is crossing a busy intersection in a wheelchair through 1" of snow that hasn't been cleared yet, is that better than having a 24/7/365 option in climate controlled underground that might take 5 minutes longer to navigate?

Going back and forth on the inconvenience a closed P&M causes for pedestrians and surface businesses, and the possible options for both is fine.  But when you add in the snarl of traffic issues, transit and pedestrian safety... I'm sorry, it is a nor brainer in my books..

Spend millions and make the underground better.  Give easy access to everyone 24/7/365.  And keep the already problematic traffic on the surface from becoming a huge issue. 

You think people avoid the downtown because they can't cross P&M on the surface?  Watch what happens to traffic if you can't get through P&M in less than 5 light cycles due to pedestrians in the crosswalks taking too long to clear during rush hour.  Of panhandlers being given so much new territory to ply their trade... or any of the hundred other negatives that come with opening it up... including a dead person in a wheelchair (which you know is going to happen.  Not because someone purposely runs them down, but by accident).   

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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2018, 04:35:43 PM »

P&M has worked as it sits for decades.

And it worked for decades prior when it was open to pedestrian traffic. It'll work all the same if it does end up being opened to pedestrian traffic again. Same as any other large intersection in this city or the several others in this country and abroad. Again: P&M is nothing special. Never has been, never will be.


« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 05:28:40 PM by ModAdmin » Logged

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Horseman
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« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2018, 06:34:17 PM »

Of course not. It's just the typical bass-ackwards, fear-mongering nonsense from those afraid of change. Of course, the crotchety whiners stuck in the past have absolutely no data by which to back up their weak and delusional argument.

P&M isn't some special place. It's just another intersection in an urban environment, the likes of which exist in hundreds of cities around the world. You don't see the rest of those ones closed, though.

No Data...we lived it in the 70's. We have something better than data and that is first hand knowledge of what the intersection will be like by allowing pedestrian traffic again!
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theaardvark
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« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2018, 06:40:16 PM »

And it worked for decades prior when it was open to pedestrian traffic. It'll work all the same if it does end up being opened to pedestrian traffic again. Same as any other large intersection in this city or the several others in this country and abroad. Again: P&M is nothing special. Never has been, never will be.

 

So, nothing has changed since it was closed?  Same traffic, same transit, same population density.  I get it.  

Unfortunately, a lot has changed.  And really, the opportunity to go forwards rather than back is right there for the taking.  

Opening it removes incentives for improving the underground, and will harm businesses down there to the point where it will eventually crumble under its lack of use during good weather.  So, when the bad weather hits, and using the surface crossing is difficult or impossible for the handicapable, or even normal pedestrians, where will they go?  

Making the underground better, more reliable and modern means ensuring a 24/7/365 solution.  It might be slightly less convenient during good weather, but it will be safe and year round access, rain/snow/blizzards will not affect it.  

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Jesse
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« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2018, 06:45:39 PM »

 

So, nothing has changed since it was closed?  Same traffic, same transit, same population density.  I get it.  

Unfortunately, a lot has changed.  And really, the opportunity to go forwards rather than back is right there for the taking.  

Opening it removes incentives for improving the underground, and will harm businesses down there to the point where it will eventually crumble under its lack of use during good weather.  So, when the bad weather hits, and using the surface crossing is difficult or impossible for the handicapable, or even normal pedestrians, where will they go?  

Making the underground better, more reliable and modern means ensuring a 24/7/365 solution.  It might be slightly less convenient during good weather, but it will be safe and year round access, rain/snow/blizzards will not affect it.  

I would also argue that the underground is not a safe environment and that many individuals don't want to go underground outside of peak traffic hours.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2018, 06:53:24 PM »

No Data...we lived it in the 70's. We have something better than data and that is first hand knowledge of what the intersection will be like by allowing pedestrian traffic again!

The term for this is, "anecdotal evidence", and it is not better than real data. lol.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2018, 06:57:18 PM »

I would also argue that the underground is not a safe environment and that many individuals don't want to go underground outside of peak traffic hours.

Not safe how?  Predators?  Evil doer's?  Sorry, but downtown that isn't limited to underground.  I would suggest that there could be better security, as well as an increased surveillance solution with central monitoring.  Without security, the surface is just as dangerous as underground.  I know I lock my doors when driving through downtown, even during the day...
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #83 on: November 27, 2018, 06:57:46 PM »

P&M has worked as it sits for decades. 

No doubt the underground could be made more friendly and reliable, with more options for the handicapable.  And, in doing so, it can be made accessable 24/7/365. 

I guess that is my biggest pet peeve about this.  We are in Winnipeg.  Any surface access is going to be subject to our weather, meaning a substantial portion of the time the intersection will be, at best, miserable to use.  And driving traffic above ground will make the subterranean routes even less attractive to be used, meaning a potential reduction of access that way.  If your only option in Dec is crossing a busy intersection in a wheelchair through 1" of snow that hasn't been cleared yet, is that better than having a 24/7/365 option in climate controlled underground that might take 5 minutes longer to navigate?

Going back and forth on the inconvenience a closed P&M causes for pedestrians and surface businesses, and the possible options for both is fine.  But when you add in the snarl of traffic issues, transit and pedestrian safety... I'm sorry, it is a nor brainer in my books..

Spend millions and make the underground better.  Give easy access to everyone 24/7/365.  And keep the already problematic traffic on the surface from becoming a huge issue. 

You think people avoid the downtown because they can't cross P&M on the surface?  Watch what happens to traffic if you can't get through P&M in less than 5 light cycles due to pedestrians in the crosswalks taking too long to clear during rush hour.  Of panhandlers being given so much new territory to ply their trade... or any of the hundred other negatives that come with opening it up... including a dead person in a wheelchair (which you know is going to happen.  Not because someone purposely runs them down, but by accident).   



Again, your entire argument is predicated on the intersection becoming dangerous and messing up traffic, when it's already been shown in this thread that will not happen.

It's an intersection. Just like the thousands of others in this city and the millions of other busier ones in much larger cities.

Also not understanding the argument about the cold...if it's -30 out, you're probably going to avoid going for a long stroll anyway and won't be saved from 3 minutes of sanctuary crossing the street underground.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2018, 07:25:52 PM »

Again, your entire argument is predicated on the intersection becoming dangerous and messing up traffic, when it's already been shown in this thread that will not happen.

It's an intersection. Just like the thousands of others in this city and the millions of other busier ones in much larger cities.

Also not understanding the argument about the cold...if it's -30 out, you're probably going to avoid going for a long stroll anyway and won't be saved from 3 minutes of sanctuary crossing the street underground.

Adding pedestrian cycles to the lights will affect traffic.  There is no debate.  And when there is a pedestrian/vehicle incident, the intersection will close and cause havoc.

Making it accessible 24/7/365 means you can take the venture at -30, or any time.  It means you will have full access regardless weather.  So, park underground, and then you are able to do whatever you want all day... even if it is a blizzard outside.   Opening the surface will eventually cause the underground to close.  Its is close to closing even with the surface closed.  Opening the intersection kills the underground, removing it as an option, stranding people in bad weather.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #85 on: November 27, 2018, 07:33:52 PM »

Adding pedestrian cycles to the lights will affect traffic.  There is no debate.  And when there is a pedestrian/vehicle incident, the intersection will close and cause havoc.

Just like every other intersection in the world!!!

Making it accessible 24/7/365 means you can take the venture at -30, or any time.  It means you will have full access regardless weather.  So, park underground, and then you are able to do whatever you want all day... even if it is a blizzard outside.   Opening the surface will eventually cause the underground to close.  Its is close to closing even with the surface closed.  Opening the intersection kills the underground, removing it as an option, stranding people in bad weather.

I hope the underground does fail and close. It's completely useless and is a giant waste of money if we follow your vision for it. It should be filled with concrete.

As I said, if it's -30 and you have the underground option, big whoop. It's not the difference between going on a "venture" and not. It's 5 minutes of reprieve. This isn't supposed to be some transformational experience, it is supposed to be crossing a street.
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Horseman
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« Reply #86 on: November 27, 2018, 08:23:38 PM »

The term for this is, "anecdotal evidence", and it is not better than real data. lol.

No because experiencing it is nothing like data...give your head a shake and listen to the rattle.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #87 on: November 27, 2018, 08:31:11 PM »

Just like every other intersection in the world!!!

I hope the underground does fail and close. It's completely useless and is a giant waste of money if we follow your vision for it. It should be filled with concrete.

As I said, if it's -30 and you have the underground option, big whoop. It's not the difference between going on a "venture" and not. It's 5 minutes of reprieve. This isn't supposed to be some transformational experience, it is supposed to be crossing a street.

Interestingly, there is an intersection in the world that does not have pedestrian traffic.  Its right here in Winnipeg.  It's called Portage and Main.  And it has an incredible record for limiting pedestrian deaths even with the huge volume of traffic.  Cool, eh?  Right here in Winnipeg.

Not talking about a 5 min reprieve in -30 weather, I'm talking about having *any* ability to cross the intersection in foul weather.  If you fill the underground with concrete, then what are the options in inclement weather for crossing the intersection?  You going to cross at -30 with a blizzerd?  Even if you are able bodied, nope.  Never mind someone needing mobility assistance.  But if there is a proper underground?  No issues, 24/1/365.
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Colton
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« Reply #88 on: November 27, 2018, 08:42:31 PM »

Interestingly, there is an intersection in the world that does not have pedestrian traffic.  Its right here in Winnipeg.  It's called Portage and Main.  And it has an incredible record for limiting pedestrian deaths even with the huge volume of traffic.  Cool, eh?  Right here in Winnipeg.

Not talking about a 5 min reprieve in -30 weather, I'm talking about having *any* ability to cross the intersection in foul weather.  If you fill the underground with concrete, then what are the options in inclement weather for crossing the intersection?  You going to cross at -30 with a blizzerd?  Even if you are able bodied, nope.  Never mind someone needing mobility assistance.  But if there is a proper underground?  No issues, 24/1/365.


If you care at all about safety like you claim to, why are you not advocating for the removal of all vehicles from our roads? The lethal part of all of this is the vehicles, not the pedestrians. Vehicles cause countless deaths each year and it isn't limited to a single intersection.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2018, 08:51:06 PM »

If you care at all about safety like you claim to, why are you not advocating for the removal of all vehicles from our roads? The lethal part of all of this is the vehicles, not the pedestrians. Vehicles cause countless deaths each year and it isn't limited to a single intersection.

Lol... perfect logic.  Let's ban people from the city.  Its not cars that kill people in traffic accidents, its the people behind the wheel.

Continued safety is not the issue, but it is a byproduct of increasing and ensuring access to using the intersection for people, vehicles and transit. 

Just picture it, an accident happens at P&M when a person enters the intersection early or late and gets struck by accident by a vehicle.  Or a vehicle hits a pedestrian who is legally in the intersection because the drive is distracted. 

What is the immediate aftermath of the incident.  Can you imagine the traffic snarl?  Both to pedestrians, commuters and transit users?  It just boggles the mind...  risking all this so that a few people can cross the street in good weather rather than navigating the underground like they have done for decades...
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