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Poll
Question: What should we do with Portage and Main
Open - 8 (44.4%)
Leave as is - 6 (33.3%)
Develop over/under passes - 4 (22.2%)
Total Voters: 18

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Author Topic: Portage and Main  (Read 1262 times)
Colton
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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2018, 06:10:35 PM »

I work downtown and honestly do not think the snow clearing is bad.

Not once last winter was the snow not cleared overnight after or during a decent snowfall. Live in the Exchange and work Downtown... walked to work every day. Have absolutely no idea what that comment you replied to was supposed to mean.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2018, 06:35:40 PM »

So pedestrians shouldn't cross any street then?

Well currently it takes someone in a wheel chair 10 mins to go through the concourse that involves a series of elevators and ramps just to cross the intersection, that is assuming all the private buildings are open, some are closed after work hours.  If the buildings are closed then they cant even cross the intersection and have to navigate around.

It's likely going to cost millions to repair the barricades anyway.

I work downtown and honestly do not think the snow clearing is bad.


Controlled intersections where pedestrians can cross are an essential part of infrastructure, sure.  But some are a lot more dangerous than others, and where you can avoid a dangerous situation, you should.  If there was a way to make P&M as safe to cross as St. Marys and Meadowwood, then there is no issue.  But the volume of traffic, the volume of pedestrians, and the length of the crossing is going to make the opportunity for disaster a lot larger. 

My sympathies to wheelchair users, but that is a completely different situation, and if their access to elevators and concourses is presently restricted, THAT should be the focus of the situation, not dumping them into an intersection that will be dangerous in daytime good weather, and be a nightmare in bad weather / night. 

Costing millions to fix barricades?  Well, that means we need to fix more than one thing with a vote.  Too many infrastructure projects have totally unreasonable budgets / costs. 

If you think that the snow clearing downtown for pedestrians is fine, you need to watch my twitter feed after a snowstorm... adding in additional snow clearing priority areas, like P&M will become will just make it worse...
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New_Earth_Mud
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« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2018, 02:21:34 AM »

No matter what, they won?t ?let it be?. They will spend milllions fixing the barricades if they ?leave it be?. This isn?t a case of spending money vs not spending money.

Things can be fixed without spending millions.

And its a case of being able to do it right the first time.   I dont think anyone in this city is able to to tear it apart and build it correct in an resnable amount of time

A crosswalk on Chancler took all summer.  Its 2 lanes.

Portage n Main is something that needs more thought and plaining and not done untill this transit thing is finished
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2018, 12:14:07 PM »

Things can be fixed without spending millions.

And its a case of being able to do it right the first time.   I dont think anyone in this city is able to to tear it apart and build it correct in an resnable amount of time

A crosswalk on Chancler took all summer.  Its 2 lanes.

Portage n Main is something that needs more thought and plaining and not done untill this transit thing is finished


No they cannot. It's reported that it will cost millions to do the barricades. Compared to all the infrastructure projects in a city, this is pretty insignificant spending.

And what do you mean this "transit thing?" Are you talking about the north-south Fort-King corridor I linked to in the article? Or BRT? Either way, I don't see how they're related.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2018, 02:36:10 PM »

If they made P&M the most safe and secure crossing in the city, I'm pretty sure we still have traffic fatalities there.

But, to that end, since safety is not the issue here, shaving a few minutes off a very limited number of pedestrian's commute at the expense of tens of thousands of commuters using car, bus or taxi, what safety precautions are going to be taken for the crosswalks?

I would suggest, if it happens, that they should have illuminated crossings using laser / led technology that would make "active" crosswalks exceptionally bright, day or night.  Allowing motorists an enhanced notification that a: the crosswalk is presently the right of way for pedestrians and b; making sure that motorists see pedestrians in the intersection. 

Simple streetlights are not sufficient, for either party.  By using illumination when pedestrians have the right of way, we give both parties notice, allowing pedestrians to know when the time is up as well, so that they can take proper action to protect themselves. 

I just worry for people using the intersection that are not 100% mobile.  These are the people that this change is supposed to benefit, but it puts them into a dangerous spot.  If they can't clear the intersection in time, they are vulnerable to an accident happening.  A vehicle entering the intersection on a clear green could endager their safety. 

I know, a vehicle cannot enter an intersection unsafely, even on green, but hence the word "accident".  I'm not saying there will be drivers waiting for the light to change so they can mow down pedestrians.  I'm saying, light changes, car pulls into intersection, bam.  Worse yet, light changes, person starts to pull forward, stops because of pedestrian and guy behind him plows through thinking the first guy was moving.  Bam...

All this talk about modernizing and moving into the future, updating the downtown.  Opening P&M is going backwards...

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blue_or_die
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« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2018, 03:08:46 PM »

If they made P&M the most safe and secure crossing in the city, I'm pretty sure we still have traffic fatalities there.

But, to that end, since safety is not the issue here, shaving a few minutes off a very limited number of pedestrian's commute at the expense of tens of thousands of commuters using car, bus or taxi, what safety precautions are going to be taken for the crosswalks?

I would suggest, if it happens, that they should have illuminated crossings using laser / led technology that would make "active" crosswalks exceptionally bright, day or night.  Allowing motorists an enhanced notification that a: the crosswalk is presently the right of way for pedestrians and b; making sure that motorists see pedestrians in the intersection. 

Simple streetlights are not sufficient, for either party.  By using illumination when pedestrians have the right of way, we give both parties notice, allowing pedestrians to know when the time is up as well, so that they can take proper action to protect themselves. 

I just worry for people using the intersection that are not 100% mobile.  These are the people that this change is supposed to benefit, but it puts them into a dangerous spot.  If they can't clear the intersection in time, they are vulnerable to an accident happening.  A vehicle entering the intersection on a clear green could endager their safety. 

I know, a vehicle cannot enter an intersection unsafely, even on green, but hence the word "accident".  I'm not saying there will be drivers waiting for the light to change so they can mow down pedestrians.  I'm saying, light changes, car pulls into intersection, bam.  Worse yet, light changes, person starts to pull forward, stops because of pedestrian and guy behind him plows through thinking the first guy was moving.  Bam...

All this talk about modernizing and moving into the future, updating the downtown.  Opening P&M is going backwards...



So, do you recommend this technology you made up for every busy intersection? Because P&M is the third busiest intersection in the city, and probably doesn't even compare to others in larger cities around the world where pedestrians are allowed to cross.

With regards to the bolded, the commute time will only change about 3 minutes, and this is only for a 1.5 hour period once per day, 5 times per week. So that argument goes both ways.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/portage-main-reopening-data-1.4786207
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theaardvark
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« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2018, 07:32:16 PM »

So, do you recommend this technology you made up for every busy intersection? Because P&M is the third busiest intersection in the city, and probably doesn't even compare to others in larger cities around the world where pedestrians are allowed to cross.

With regards to the bolded, the commute time will only change about 3 minutes, and this is only for a 1.5 hour period once per day, 5 times per week. So that argument goes both ways.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/portage-main-reopening-data-1.4786207

We need better crosswalk technology at every intersection/crosswalk, which should be phased in based on areas that have shown to be an issue.

I will be quite surprised and amused if adding in a crosswalk at P&M adds only 3 min to the average commute time off rush, never mind on rush hour.  It is going to mean longer light cycles to allow pedestrians ample time to cross,  and they won't be able to be staggered to adjust for traffic flow (traffic volume along Main St. is far higher, but will be cut off for extended periods to allow for crossing safely) which means longer waits, and fewer intersection clearing yellows.  And again, 3 min x huge volume means a lot more wasted time than 10 min x a lot fewer.  Plus, adding to the commute time also adds to the fuel costs and idling greenhouse gasses. 

But sure.  The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2018, 07:51:59 PM »

We need better crosswalk technology at every intersection/crosswalk, which should be phased in based on areas that have shown to be an issue.

I will be quite surprised and amused if adding in a crosswalk at P&M adds only 3 min to the average commute time off rush, never mind on rush hour.  It is going to mean longer light cycles to allow pedestrians ample time to cross,  and they won't be able to be staggered to adjust for traffic flow (traffic volume along Main St. is far higher, but will be cut off for extended periods to allow for crossing safely) which means longer waits, and fewer intersection clearing yellows.  And again, 3 min x huge volume means a lot more wasted time than 10 min x a lot fewer.  Plus, adding to the commute time also adds to the fuel costs and idling greenhouse gasses. 

But sure.  The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.

Again, so I guess you must feel that way about every busy intersection. There's literally nothing special about P&M.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2018, 08:04:54 PM »

The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.

What a sad, childish remark.

Again, so I guess you must feel that way about every busy intersection. There's literally nothing special about P&M.

Bingo. Portage & Moray and Regent & Lagimodiere are both busier but deal with pedestrian traffic just fine.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2018, 08:24:41 PM »

Again, so I guess you must feel that way about every busy intersection. There's literally nothing special about P&M.

Yes... the difference with P&M is there is no problem there right now.  Opening it up will create a safety issue the presently does not exist.  The other busy intersections do not have alternate crossing methods, so are a necessary evil.

There is literally everything special about P&M, as there is alternate mode of crossing the intersection.  Which might be inconvenient now, but can easily be improved.  And the crossing can be re-invented in a forward thinking way, rather than reverting to a method that is proven to cost time and lives.


Bingo. Portage & Moray and Regent & Lagimodiere are both busier but deal with pedestrian traffic just fine.

What are the pedestrian volumes at those intersections?  Traffic volume might be similar, but volume of pedestrians vs. cars vs. buses is completely different at P&M.  You also have to add in the fact that there are very few pedestrians "hanging out" at Portage and Moray or Regent and Lag.  P&M will potentially become a hangout, and a potential beggars goldmine.  Adding to the issue.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2018, 09:58:23 PM »

Yes... the difference with P&M is there is no problem there right now.  Opening it up will create a safety issue the presently does not exist.  The other busy intersections do not have alternate crossing methods, so are a necessary evil.

There is literally everything special about P&M, as there is alternate mode of crossing the intersection.  Which might be inconvenient now, but can easily be improved.  And the crossing can be re-invented in a forward thinking way, rather than reverting to a method that is proven to cost time and lives.


To be clear- this massive time-wasting, deadly method you?re describing is...crossing the street.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2018, 12:25:25 PM »

What are the pedestrian volumes at those intersections?  Traffic volume might be similar, but volume of pedestrians vs. cars vs. buses is completely different at P&M.  You also have to add in the fact that there are very few pedestrians "hanging out" at Portage and Moray or Regent and Lag.  P&M will potentially become a hangout, and a potential beggars goldmine.  Adding to the issue.

Why don't you go look that up? You're the one who's upset and whining over the possibility of P&M opening up to pedestrian traffic as though it'll be the end of the world.

I, for one, couldn't care less either way. There are viewpoints on both sides of the coin worth considering but it seems like those who want it to remain closed have to resort to fear-mongering and emotional conjecture to justify their ignorance, aversion to change, and stuck-in-the-past mentality. I'm of the opinion it's just an intersection and nothing of significance will change if it does open to pedestrian traffic.

The fact is the city has to spend a significant sum of money on it regardless of the open or close debate.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2018, 01:41:58 PM »

Why don't you go look that up? You're the one who's upset and whining over the possibility of P&M opening up to pedestrian traffic as though it'll be the end of the world.

I, for one, couldn't care less either way. There are viewpoints on both sides of the coin worth considering but it seems like those who want it to remain closed have to resort to fear-mongering and emotional conjecture to justify their ignorance, aversion to change, and stuck-in-the-past mentality. I'm of the opinion it's just an intersection and nothing of significance will change if it does open to pedestrian traffic.

The fact is the city has to spend a significant sum of money on it regardless of the open or close debate
.

QFT.
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Stretch
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« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2018, 01:59:45 PM »

It will be nice to put this debate to rest in about 10 hours.
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Jesse
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« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2018, 02:10:03 PM »

It will be nice to put this debate to rest in about 10 hours.

lol. Sure.
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