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Poll
Question: What should we do with Portage and Main
Open - 9 (42.9%)
Leave as is - 7 (33.3%)
Develop over/under passes - 5 (23.8%)
Total Voters: 20

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Author Topic: Portage and Main  (Read 8468 times)
theaardvark
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« on: September 29, 2018, 01:20:52 PM »

With so many of the posters here feeling outspoken about stadium location, rapid transit and such, how's about a thread on Portage and Main.

Why does it seem like I'm the only one who doesn't understand the benefit to opening P&M, let alone incurring millions of dollars in expenses to do so?

It will kill car traffic through the area, diverting traffic away from the downtown. 

It will attract beggars, can you imagine the status of having one of those corners?  The busiest traffic stopped area in the city?  Short of posting a cop there to stop it, it has the potential for disaster.

We have issues with snow clearing for pedestrians already downtown, this will make things even worse.  So the foot traffic is not 365 days a year.  Add in the wind, rain and other weather events and it even gets worse for attracting the small amount  of potential foot traffic the local retailers hope to gain. 

Want something truly forward thinking and attractive to visitors, that will actually bring people to the city to see it rather than opening P&M to street level crossing that could end up being tragic if/when a fatal accident happens, or become a thing like the "running of the bulls"?  When that first fatal accident happens (and you know it will, especially with the pedestrians presently using the area.  99.9% may be business people, students, etc, but there are pedestrians in the area that either do not have the awareness or respect that navigating an open P&M requires, and will lead to confrontation or worse. 


Lets make a 365 day a year usable option.  Either a skywalk network, or a tunnel network.  Here's the key.  2 elevators at each "corner".  Backup if one goes down, or during maintenance.  An enclosed space that foot traffic can use 365, and does not interrupt car traffic. 

This is done in Vegas all down the strip.  Skywalks let you get from one side of the strip to the other, with elevators and escalators and stairs. 
Sure, ours would have to be covered for 365 use, but pedestrians would be safe.

https://www.thehighline.org/ is a shining example of taking a negative and turning it into an attraction, improving local property rates and more...  a great documentary https://youtu.be/7CgTlg_L_Sw

And there are places like this...  https://www.grandcanyonwest.com/skywalk--eagle-point.htm

I'm not saying we can make something on this scale, or this grandiose, but there could be design elements created that make it interesting and attractive.  And make the intersection both safe for pedestrians and effective for traffic.

Win / win.  Opening it, in my opinion, is a lose/lose/lose.  Costs money to make an intersection that is slow and dangerouse, and not useable for a significant part of the year.

Obviously, I'm a "No" vote in the election, and option 3 here.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2018, 12:40:59 PM »

Bad idea. Leave Portage and main the way it is.
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bluengold204
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2018, 12:55:45 PM »

Open it up.
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2018, 09:08:32 AM »

With so many of the posters here feeling outspoken about stadium location, rapid transit and such, how's about a thread on Portage and Main.

Why does it seem like I'm the only one who doesn't understand the benefit to opening P&M, let alone incurring millions of dollars in expenses to do so?

It will kill car traffic through the area, diverting traffic away from the downtown. 

It will attract beggars, can you imagine the status of having one of those corners?  The busiest traffic stopped area in the city?  Short of posting a cop there to stop it, it has the potential for disaster.

We have issues with snow clearing for pedestrians already downtown, this will make things even worse.  So the foot traffic is not 365 days a year.  Add in the wind, rain and other weather events and it even gets worse for attracting the small amount  of potential foot traffic the local retailers hope to gain. 

Want something truly forward thinking and attractive to visitors, that will actually bring people to the city to see it rather than opening P&M to street level crossing that could end up being tragic if/when a fatal accident happens, or become a thing like the "running of the bulls"?  When that first fatal accident happens (and you know it will, especially with the pedestrians presently using the area.  99.9% may be business people, students, etc, but there are pedestrians in the area that either do not have the awareness or respect that navigating an open P&M requires, and will lead to confrontation or worse. 


Lets make a 365 day a year usable option.  Either a skywalk network, or a tunnel network.  Here's the key.  2 elevators at each "corner".  Backup if one goes down, or during maintenance.  An enclosed space that foot traffic can use 365, and does not interrupt car traffic. 

This is done in Vegas all down the strip.  Skywalks let you get from one side of the strip to the other, with elevators and escalators and stairs. 
Sure, ours would have to be covered for 365 use, but pedestrians would be safe.

https://www.thehighline.org/ is a shining example of taking a negative and turning it into an attraction, improving local property rates and more...  a great documentary https://youtu.be/7CgTlg_L_Sw

And there are places like this...  https://www.grandcanyonwest.com/skywalk--eagle-point.htm

I'm not saying we can make something on this scale, or this grandiose, but there could be design elements created that make it interesting and attractive.  And make the intersection both safe for pedestrians and effective for traffic.

Win / win.  Opening it, in my opinion, is a lose/lose/lose.  Costs money to make an intersection that is slow and dangerouse, and not useable for a significant part of the year.

Obviously, I'm a "No" vote in the election, and option 3 here.

I doubt escalators in -50 windchills would work very well.
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Jesse
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2018, 12:01:50 PM »

Honestly, I don?t feel either side of this argument has a whole lot of evidence on their side. I?ve entered into this matter as a neutral and have been waiting for something to convince me, and nothing really has.

I don?t want to slow down traffic, but I don?t know who much this would slow down traffic. And, obviously, pedestrians are way more inconvenienced now that drivers would be. I understand aards? Point about panhandlers, but the occurs on every busy intersection anyways. There are way more things we should be spending our limited funds on, that?s for sure. But we wouldn?t have anything nice if we only spent money on what we should.

I hate the existence of the underground. Talk about a pointless waste of resources. It?s confusing for many people, dangerous to travel through, and should probably just be filled with cement. I believe in trying things to make downtown more open and safe. This obviously wouldn?t do that, but is maybe a first step?
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2018, 02:17:00 PM »

Honestly, I don?t feel either side of this argument has a whole lot of evidence on their side. I?ve entered into this matter as a neutral and have been waiting for something to convince me, and nothing really has.

I don?t want to slow down traffic, but I don?t know who much this would slow down traffic. And, obviously, pedestrians are way more inconvenienced now that drivers would be. I understand aards? Point about panhandlers, but the occurs on every busy intersection anyways. There are way more things we should be spending our limited funds on, that?s for sure. But we wouldn?t have anything nice if we only spent money on what we should.

I hate the existence of the underground. Talk about a pointless waste of resources. It?s confusing for many people, dangerous to travel through, and should probably just be filled with cement. I believe in trying things to make downtown more open and safe. This obviously wouldn?t do that, but is maybe a first step?


Agree with a good amount of that, but just to point out, there's going to have to be big bucks spent on repairing the barricades and the whole intersection and underground leakage anyway, so a lot of the ~12M quoted would be spent anyway.

I also don't understand why this is some sort of compelling issue. There are busy intersections all over the world that people cross. Traffic sucks there anyway at rush hour and an extra five minutes isn't going to kill anyone. I know people have to drive through downtown for their commute, but for people who work downtown, I don't understand taking your car, sitting in traffic and then finding and paying for parking. If I worked downtown I'd totally take the bus and save time, money, and ware on my car. Speaking of traffic and transit, check out this article about making Fort (super underutilized street) a north-south transit corridor just like Graham, to take lots of traffic off Main St. and help encourage development:

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/civicelection2018/team-open-proposal-a-win-for-both-sides-497653701.html

Anyway, the thing that pisses me off the most is how, in a city with plenty of priorities to debate, a ducking intersection is in the spotlight. Who could possibly care SO much, one way or the other?
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Knocker42
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2018, 02:25:25 PM »

Right on.
The south perimeter and Route 90/Kenaston make the city look 3rd class.  Get them done pronto.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2018, 04:06:16 PM »

The "fors" want it open for a revitalizing of street traffic downtown, which will increase business, and increase property values.  Which is great, they are businessmen that are allowed to lobby to increase business.

I have yet to see anyone comment on how the intersection, which will be the busiest by far in the city, with some of the longest spans to cover, is somehow going to be safe for pedestrians.  I get it, pedestrians aren't going to cause accidents, bad drivers do.  But the existence of those pedestrians in the intersection makes an accident possible, and with the sheer volume of traffic, probable.

So, we are putting pedestrians at risk (but they know the risk when they decide to cross a street, right?) for economic gains of a few businesses in that area?  At the potential cost of business in the concourses?  Peter/Paul...  really. 

The real losers in this will be the pedestrian casualties and their families.

After the first fatality, will there be a hew and cry for closing it?
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Jesse
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2018, 04:10:30 PM »

Agree with a good amount of that, but just to point out, there's going to have to be big bucks spent on repairing the barricades and the whole intersection and underground leakage anyway, so a lot of the ~12M quoted would be spent anyway.

Absolutely. Forgot about that piece

The "fors" want it open for a revitalizing of street traffic downtown, which will increase business, and increase property values.  Which is great, they are businessmen that are allowed to lobby to increase business.

I have yet to see anyone comment on how the intersection, which will be the busiest by far in the city, with some of the longest spans to cover, is somehow going to be safe for pedestrians.  I get it, pedestrians aren't going to cause accidents, bad drivers do.  But the existence of those pedestrians in the intersection makes an accident possible, and with the sheer volume of traffic, probable.

So, we are putting pedestrians at risk (but they know the risk when they decide to cross a street, right?) for economic gains of a few businesses in that area?  At the potential cost of business in the concourses?  Peter/Paul...  really. 

The real losers in this will be the pedestrian casualties and their families.

After the first fatality, will there be a hew and cry for closing it?

I don't agree with this point at all. What keeps fatalities from occurring at every other intersection? Unless you want to overhaul the entire system of how people cross streets, this isn't really a valid point.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2018, 04:13:45 PM »

I doubt escalators in -50 windchills would work very well.

Not sure an outdoor street level crossing works too well at -50c either.  Whereas a concourse works 24/7, 365.

Escalators won't, but elevators would.  Or something like these... with elevators (2 each corner for redundancy to increase use even during a breakdown or maintenance)



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theaardvark
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2018, 04:14:55 PM »

Could you imagine the celebrations that could be had at P&M if these structures were there?
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Jesse
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2018, 04:30:23 PM »

Melissa Martin has a great piece in the freep that everyone should check out.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2018, 04:48:00 PM »

Melissa Martin has a great piece in the freep that everyone should check out.

This one?

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/civicelection2018/an-open-and-shut-case-492732301.html
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Jesse
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2018, 04:52:48 PM »

Nope. In today's paper.

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/civicelection2018/buried-broken-heart-498030681.html

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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2018, 05:04:23 PM »

Not sure an outdoor street level crossing works too well at -50c either.  Whereas a concourse works 24/7, 365.

Escalators won't, but elevators would.  Or something like these... with elevators (2 each corner for redundancy to increase use even during a breakdown or maintenance)





I really like these 2.  The idea of something similar to this in Winnipeg is very intriguing. 
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GOLDMEMBER
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2018, 05:17:06 PM »

Hate this topic. Who cares life to short to squabble about this crap.
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2018, 05:29:40 PM »

Hate this topic. Who cares life to short to squabble about this crap.

Like it or not, it is a hot topic in Winnipeg right now.  It is an issue when it comes to the mayoral race as well.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2018, 05:53:01 PM »

I really like these 2.  The idea of something similar to this in Winnipeg is very intriguing. 

Add in a retractable roof, or a partial or complete cover, and it would be amazing.  You could even incorporate a laser pyramid... Wink
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2018, 07:29:26 PM »

Add in a retractable roof, or a partial or complete cover, and it would be amazing.  You could even incorporate a laser pyramid... Wink

So clearly the issue has nothing to do with the price tag for aardvark, lol.

Here's a proposal: we open it and give it 12 months to see how horribly it affects traffic and safety. If it's actually that bad, we spend however much it takes to build your roofed laser elevator/escalator bridge? Either way, you don't have to go in the weird underground thingy.
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Jesse
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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2018, 07:37:22 PM »

So clearly the issue has nothing to do with the price tag for aardvark, lol.

Here's a proposal: we open it and give it 12 months to see how horribly it affects traffic and safety. If it's actually that bad, we spend however much it takes to build your roofed laser elevator/escalator bridge? Either way, you don't have to go in the weird underground thingy.

If they do the transit corridor mentioned in the article you linked to, there's likely a net reduction in traffic times by getting the buses off of main.

Honestly, keeping it closed has no relevant arguments anymore. I've decided. Open Portage and Main!
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theaardvark
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2018, 07:56:50 PM »

If they do the transit corridor mentioned in the article you linked to, there's likely a net reduction in traffic times by getting the buses off of main.

Honestly, keeping it closed has no relevant arguments anymore. I've decided. Open Portage and Main!

So, putting pedestrians in the path of traffic isn't an issue?  Making a person in a wheelchair cross 6 lanes of traffic in a 45 second light change through slush/snow isn't a relevant argument?   It is going to cost millions to open the intersection and add in safety precautions that are guaranteed not to be 100% effective and will result in injuries and deaths.  So a few businesses can line their pockets?

Opening the intersection isn't a tourist attraction, the structures pictured are tourist attractions.  Those will bring people downtown from the Forks.  They will get people utilizing the crossings, with 100% safety from traffic.  And, if covered, will provide 24/7 365 access.  Opening street level will still mean that pedestrians will be subjected to weather restrictions, and ask anyone downtown about snow clearing.   

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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2018, 09:40:37 PM »

As far as I am concerned, cross-walks are not even an option.  Either there is some sort of bridge above ground and people walk over traffic, or we open nothing.  Pedestrians can not be crossing Portage and Main on the same streets as vehicles. 
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The Zipp
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2018, 10:38:47 PM »

Regent and lagimodiere has pedestrians crossing...so do many other busy multi-lane roadways including other downtown intersections.  It can work without people being killed. 

I am team open and I have spent years working right at the corner of P & M.  There is no reason not to have grade crossing AND an improved underground option.  The way it is now is dangerous and not great for those with physical limitations. 

Time to invest in this corner and realize that cars and people can both safely use this crossing.  Should have been done already. 
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2018, 10:39:45 PM »

If only there was an example of an intersection somewhere in the world where pedestrians were allowed to cross...

No, safety is not a relevant argument because it will be no more dangerous to cross this intersection as any other busy intersection. I don't get this logic whatsoever.
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New_Earth_Mud
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2018, 12:16:44 AM »

Leave it be.... fix The **** that needs fixing.  They have ripped up ness and route 90 the same place 2 years in a row...   whats up with that?
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2018, 05:43:19 AM »

Leave it be.... fix The **** that needs fixing.  They have ripped up ness and route 90 the same place 2 years in a row...   whats up with that?


No matter what, they won?t ?let it be?. They will spend milllions fixing the barricades if they ?leave it be?. This isn?t a case of spending money vs not spending money.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2018, 07:41:00 PM »

As far as I am concerned, cross-walks are not even an option.  Either there is some sort of bridge above ground and people walk over traffic, or we open nothing.  Pedestrians can not be crossing Portage and Main on the same streets as vehicles. 

And yet, this very thing happens the world over in the smallest towns and largest cities.

Leave it be.... fix The **** that needs fixing.  They have ripped up ness and route 90 the same place 2 years in a row...   whats up with that?

Leave it be...? I take it you're not aware P&M is a crumbling disaster and needs to be repaired regardless of the open vs. close debate.
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New_Earth_Mud
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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2018, 11:36:02 PM »

And yet, this very thing happens the world over in the smallest towns and largest cities.

Leave it be...? I take it you're not aware P&M is a crumbling disaster and needs to be repaired regardless of the open vs. close debate.

So is half of the stuff thats built.   Ness and Route 90 has been dug up and rebuilt 3 years in a row.  Why is that?   If they cant build that correct once its mind boggleing how long and screwed up P n M would get.

I work right off where this new transit thing is going....   holy hell is a complete crap show.


They way this building goes on in this City...   tearing up or trying to fix P n M would be a disaster.
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Colton
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2018, 02:51:36 AM »

They way this building goes on in this City...   tearing up or trying to fix P n M would be a disaster.

It has to be done no matter which way you vote, which is why it'll probably be left open regardless of the vote. Voting to keep P&M closed is voting to spend additional money on more construction to put up new barricades.
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bluengold204
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2018, 03:49:27 PM »

So, putting pedestrians in the path of traffic isn't an issue?

So pedestrians shouldn't cross any street then?

Making a person in a wheelchair cross 6 lanes of traffic in a 45 second light change through slush/snow isn't a relevant argument? 

Well currently it takes someone in a wheel chair 10 mins to go through the concourse that involves a series of elevators and ramps just to cross the intersection, that is assuming all the private buildings are open, some are closed after work hours.  If the buildings are closed then they cant even cross the intersection and have to navigate around.

It is going to cost millions to open the intersection and add in safety precautions that are guaranteed not to be 100% effective and will result in injuries and deaths.  So a few businesses can line their pockets?

It's likely going to cost millions to repair the barricades anyway.

Opening street level will still mean that pedestrians will be subjected to weather restrictions, and ask anyone downtown about snow clearing.  

I work downtown and honestly do not think the snow clearing is bad.
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Colton
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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2018, 06:10:35 PM »

I work downtown and honestly do not think the snow clearing is bad.

Not once last winter was the snow not cleared overnight after or during a decent snowfall. Live in the Exchange and work Downtown... walked to work every day. Have absolutely no idea what that comment you replied to was supposed to mean.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2018, 06:35:40 PM »

So pedestrians shouldn't cross any street then?

Well currently it takes someone in a wheel chair 10 mins to go through the concourse that involves a series of elevators and ramps just to cross the intersection, that is assuming all the private buildings are open, some are closed after work hours.  If the buildings are closed then they cant even cross the intersection and have to navigate around.

It's likely going to cost millions to repair the barricades anyway.

I work downtown and honestly do not think the snow clearing is bad.


Controlled intersections where pedestrians can cross are an essential part of infrastructure, sure.  But some are a lot more dangerous than others, and where you can avoid a dangerous situation, you should.  If there was a way to make P&M as safe to cross as St. Marys and Meadowwood, then there is no issue.  But the volume of traffic, the volume of pedestrians, and the length of the crossing is going to make the opportunity for disaster a lot larger. 

My sympathies to wheelchair users, but that is a completely different situation, and if their access to elevators and concourses is presently restricted, THAT should be the focus of the situation, not dumping them into an intersection that will be dangerous in daytime good weather, and be a nightmare in bad weather / night. 

Costing millions to fix barricades?  Well, that means we need to fix more than one thing with a vote.  Too many infrastructure projects have totally unreasonable budgets / costs. 

If you think that the snow clearing downtown for pedestrians is fine, you need to watch my twitter feed after a snowstorm... adding in additional snow clearing priority areas, like P&M will become will just make it worse...
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New_Earth_Mud
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« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2018, 02:21:34 AM »

No matter what, they won?t ?let it be?. They will spend milllions fixing the barricades if they ?leave it be?. This isn?t a case of spending money vs not spending money.

Things can be fixed without spending millions.

And its a case of being able to do it right the first time.   I dont think anyone in this city is able to to tear it apart and build it correct in an resnable amount of time

A crosswalk on Chancler took all summer.  Its 2 lanes.

Portage n Main is something that needs more thought and plaining and not done untill this transit thing is finished
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2018, 12:14:07 PM »

Things can be fixed without spending millions.

And its a case of being able to do it right the first time.   I dont think anyone in this city is able to to tear it apart and build it correct in an resnable amount of time

A crosswalk on Chancler took all summer.  Its 2 lanes.

Portage n Main is something that needs more thought and plaining and not done untill this transit thing is finished


No they cannot. It's reported that it will cost millions to do the barricades. Compared to all the infrastructure projects in a city, this is pretty insignificant spending.

And what do you mean this "transit thing?" Are you talking about the north-south Fort-King corridor I linked to in the article? Or BRT? Either way, I don't see how they're related.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2018, 02:36:10 PM »

If they made P&M the most safe and secure crossing in the city, I'm pretty sure we still have traffic fatalities there.

But, to that end, since safety is not the issue here, shaving a few minutes off a very limited number of pedestrian's commute at the expense of tens of thousands of commuters using car, bus or taxi, what safety precautions are going to be taken for the crosswalks?

I would suggest, if it happens, that they should have illuminated crossings using laser / led technology that would make "active" crosswalks exceptionally bright, day or night.  Allowing motorists an enhanced notification that a: the crosswalk is presently the right of way for pedestrians and b; making sure that motorists see pedestrians in the intersection. 

Simple streetlights are not sufficient, for either party.  By using illumination when pedestrians have the right of way, we give both parties notice, allowing pedestrians to know when the time is up as well, so that they can take proper action to protect themselves. 

I just worry for people using the intersection that are not 100% mobile.  These are the people that this change is supposed to benefit, but it puts them into a dangerous spot.  If they can't clear the intersection in time, they are vulnerable to an accident happening.  A vehicle entering the intersection on a clear green could endager their safety. 

I know, a vehicle cannot enter an intersection unsafely, even on green, but hence the word "accident".  I'm not saying there will be drivers waiting for the light to change so they can mow down pedestrians.  I'm saying, light changes, car pulls into intersection, bam.  Worse yet, light changes, person starts to pull forward, stops because of pedestrian and guy behind him plows through thinking the first guy was moving.  Bam...

All this talk about modernizing and moving into the future, updating the downtown.  Opening P&M is going backwards...

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blue_or_die
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« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2018, 03:08:46 PM »

If they made P&M the most safe and secure crossing in the city, I'm pretty sure we still have traffic fatalities there.

But, to that end, since safety is not the issue here, shaving a few minutes off a very limited number of pedestrian's commute at the expense of tens of thousands of commuters using car, bus or taxi, what safety precautions are going to be taken for the crosswalks?

I would suggest, if it happens, that they should have illuminated crossings using laser / led technology that would make "active" crosswalks exceptionally bright, day or night.  Allowing motorists an enhanced notification that a: the crosswalk is presently the right of way for pedestrians and b; making sure that motorists see pedestrians in the intersection. 

Simple streetlights are not sufficient, for either party.  By using illumination when pedestrians have the right of way, we give both parties notice, allowing pedestrians to know when the time is up as well, so that they can take proper action to protect themselves. 

I just worry for people using the intersection that are not 100% mobile.  These are the people that this change is supposed to benefit, but it puts them into a dangerous spot.  If they can't clear the intersection in time, they are vulnerable to an accident happening.  A vehicle entering the intersection on a clear green could endager their safety. 

I know, a vehicle cannot enter an intersection unsafely, even on green, but hence the word "accident".  I'm not saying there will be drivers waiting for the light to change so they can mow down pedestrians.  I'm saying, light changes, car pulls into intersection, bam.  Worse yet, light changes, person starts to pull forward, stops because of pedestrian and guy behind him plows through thinking the first guy was moving.  Bam...

All this talk about modernizing and moving into the future, updating the downtown.  Opening P&M is going backwards...



So, do you recommend this technology you made up for every busy intersection? Because P&M is the third busiest intersection in the city, and probably doesn't even compare to others in larger cities around the world where pedestrians are allowed to cross.

With regards to the bolded, the commute time will only change about 3 minutes, and this is only for a 1.5 hour period once per day, 5 times per week. So that argument goes both ways.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/portage-main-reopening-data-1.4786207
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theaardvark
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« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2018, 07:32:16 PM »

So, do you recommend this technology you made up for every busy intersection? Because P&M is the third busiest intersection in the city, and probably doesn't even compare to others in larger cities around the world where pedestrians are allowed to cross.

With regards to the bolded, the commute time will only change about 3 minutes, and this is only for a 1.5 hour period once per day, 5 times per week. So that argument goes both ways.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/portage-main-reopening-data-1.4786207

We need better crosswalk technology at every intersection/crosswalk, which should be phased in based on areas that have shown to be an issue.

I will be quite surprised and amused if adding in a crosswalk at P&M adds only 3 min to the average commute time off rush, never mind on rush hour.  It is going to mean longer light cycles to allow pedestrians ample time to cross,  and they won't be able to be staggered to adjust for traffic flow (traffic volume along Main St. is far higher, but will be cut off for extended periods to allow for crossing safely) which means longer waits, and fewer intersection clearing yellows.  And again, 3 min x huge volume means a lot more wasted time than 10 min x a lot fewer.  Plus, adding to the commute time also adds to the fuel costs and idling greenhouse gasses. 

But sure.  The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.
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« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2018, 07:51:59 PM »

We need better crosswalk technology at every intersection/crosswalk, which should be phased in based on areas that have shown to be an issue.

I will be quite surprised and amused if adding in a crosswalk at P&M adds only 3 min to the average commute time off rush, never mind on rush hour.  It is going to mean longer light cycles to allow pedestrians ample time to cross,  and they won't be able to be staggered to adjust for traffic flow (traffic volume along Main St. is far higher, but will be cut off for extended periods to allow for crossing safely) which means longer waits, and fewer intersection clearing yellows.  And again, 3 min x huge volume means a lot more wasted time than 10 min x a lot fewer.  Plus, adding to the commute time also adds to the fuel costs and idling greenhouse gasses. 

But sure.  The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.

Again, so I guess you must feel that way about every busy intersection. There's literally nothing special about P&M.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2018, 08:04:54 PM »

The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.

What a sad, childish remark.

Again, so I guess you must feel that way about every busy intersection. There's literally nothing special about P&M.

Bingo. Portage & Moray and Regent & Lagimodiere are both busier but deal with pedestrian traffic just fine.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2018, 08:24:41 PM »

Again, so I guess you must feel that way about every busy intersection. There's literally nothing special about P&M.

Yes... the difference with P&M is there is no problem there right now.  Opening it up will create a safety issue the presently does not exist.  The other busy intersections do not have alternate crossing methods, so are a necessary evil.

There is literally everything special about P&M, as there is alternate mode of crossing the intersection.  Which might be inconvenient now, but can easily be improved.  And the crossing can be re-invented in a forward thinking way, rather than reverting to a method that is proven to cost time and lives.


Bingo. Portage & Moray and Regent & Lagimodiere are both busier but deal with pedestrian traffic just fine.

What are the pedestrian volumes at those intersections?  Traffic volume might be similar, but volume of pedestrians vs. cars vs. buses is completely different at P&M.  You also have to add in the fact that there are very few pedestrians "hanging out" at Portage and Moray or Regent and Lag.  P&M will potentially become a hangout, and a potential beggars goldmine.  Adding to the issue.
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« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2018, 09:58:23 PM »

Yes... the difference with P&M is there is no problem there right now.  Opening it up will create a safety issue the presently does not exist.  The other busy intersections do not have alternate crossing methods, so are a necessary evil.

There is literally everything special about P&M, as there is alternate mode of crossing the intersection.  Which might be inconvenient now, but can easily be improved.  And the crossing can be re-invented in a forward thinking way, rather than reverting to a method that is proven to cost time and lives.


To be clear- this massive time-wasting, deadly method you?re describing is...crossing the street.
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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2018, 12:25:25 PM »

What are the pedestrian volumes at those intersections?  Traffic volume might be similar, but volume of pedestrians vs. cars vs. buses is completely different at P&M.  You also have to add in the fact that there are very few pedestrians "hanging out" at Portage and Moray or Regent and Lag.  P&M will potentially become a hangout, and a potential beggars goldmine.  Adding to the issue.

Why don't you go look that up? You're the one who's upset and whining over the possibility of P&M opening up to pedestrian traffic as though it'll be the end of the world.

I, for one, couldn't care less either way. There are viewpoints on both sides of the coin worth considering but it seems like those who want it to remain closed have to resort to fear-mongering and emotional conjecture to justify their ignorance, aversion to change, and stuck-in-the-past mentality. I'm of the opinion it's just an intersection and nothing of significance will change if it does open to pedestrian traffic.

The fact is the city has to spend a significant sum of money on it regardless of the open or close debate.
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« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2018, 01:41:58 PM »

Why don't you go look that up? You're the one who's upset and whining over the possibility of P&M opening up to pedestrian traffic as though it'll be the end of the world.

I, for one, couldn't care less either way. There are viewpoints on both sides of the coin worth considering but it seems like those who want it to remain closed have to resort to fear-mongering and emotional conjecture to justify their ignorance, aversion to change, and stuck-in-the-past mentality. I'm of the opinion it's just an intersection and nothing of significance will change if it does open to pedestrian traffic.

The fact is the city has to spend a significant sum of money on it regardless of the open or close debate
.

QFT.
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« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2018, 01:59:45 PM »

It will be nice to put this debate to rest in about 10 hours.
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« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2018, 02:10:03 PM »

It will be nice to put this debate to rest in about 10 hours.

lol. Sure.
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« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2018, 01:14:01 AM »

Finally we can put this to rest.  Portage and Main will officially NOT be re-opened. 
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« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2018, 01:26:09 AM »

So, now there needs to be some thought put into making what is there better...  maybe if they start one route at a time, focusing on the "crossing" that currently has the combination of most traffic and least access first...  either improving the concourse or starting a skywalk system. 

Even with the "no" vote, the alternate transit corridor should still be considered.
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« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2018, 05:16:43 AM »

Finally we can put this to rest.  Portage and Main will officially NOT be re-opened. 

That's not how a plebiscite works. It will still end up getting opened.
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« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2018, 10:22:19 AM »

That's not how a plebiscite works. It will still end up getting opened.

Highly doubt it.  Even if you are right, it would not happen for a LONG time.  I doubt a mayor in the near future is going overlook public opinion and go ahead with it. 
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« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2018, 12:05:11 PM »

Highly doubt it.  Even if you are right, it would not happen for a LONG time.  I doubt a mayor in the near future is going overlook public opinion and go ahead with it. 

Why? It was one of Bowman's ideas going back to the 2014 election. He wants it open and yesterday's vote on that is non-binding. Bowman doesn't give a fig about public opinion.
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« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2018, 12:19:29 PM »

Why? It was one of Bowman's ideas going back to the 2014 election. He wants it open and yesterday's vote on that is non-binding. Bowman doesn't give a fig about public opinion.

It was one of his "ideas".  Nothing really became of it in his last 4 years other than "talks".  I am fine disagreeing with you and am not really interested in making a big debate over this issues, but personally I doubt anything will happen with Portage and Main in the next several years.  Just my 2 cents. 
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« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2018, 12:28:42 PM »

It was one of his "ideas".  Nothing really became of it in his last 4 years other than "talks".  I am fine disagreeing with you and am not really interested in making a big debate over this issues, but personally I doubt anything will happen with Portage and Main in the next several years.  Just my 2 cents. 

And a bunch of viability studies. And massive coverage in the media. And then adding it to yesterday's ballot. That's way more than just talk.

I won't speculate on a timeframe. However, I'm pretty certain Bowman will do all he can to open P&M during this next term. Yesterday's vote on that changes nothing, IMO.
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« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2018, 12:32:43 PM »

The vote was no, so I guess we can put that to rest.
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« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2018, 12:35:09 PM »

And a bunch of viability studies. And massive coverage in the media. And then adding it to yesterday's ballot. That's way more than just talk.

I won't speculate on a timeframe. However, I'm pretty certain Bowman will do all he can to open P&M during this next term. Yesterday's vote on that changes nothing, IMO.

I am not very familiar with these types of questions on voting ballots.  What is the point of having them on the ballot if the mayor will completely disregard the results??
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« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2018, 12:45:32 PM »

I am not very familiar with these types of questions on voting ballots.  What is the point of having them on the ballot if the mayor will completely disregard the results??

Because he's a crappy mayor...? I mean, look at his track record the last four years.
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« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2018, 12:49:16 PM »

Because he's a crappy mayor...? I mean, look at his track record the last four years.

Well, call me naive, but I think Bowman will take the moral high ground over the next 4 years and not go ahead with any plans for Portage and Main.  Having an official vote on a ballot should be enough to keep him at bay for the near future.
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« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2018, 08:50:47 PM »

Interesting map:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpW7OvoH-9G/?hl=en&taken-by=hot1005fm
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theaardvark
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« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2018, 09:06:16 PM »

If he isn't interested in getting elected again, he will disregard this vote.  But he knows, he gets elected by some of those 65% that voted "no", and he can kiss those votes goodbye if he opens P&M.

Yes, the Yes vote map is all downtown.  Unfortunately, the Open faction did not sway the rest of the city, they managed to make their core more stalwart.  Had they mounted a more persuasive campaign to those that they need to for "Open", they might have won, but it seemed like most of their campaign was aimed at the downtown.  Which we can see by the map was already a Yes
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« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2018, 06:43:35 PM »

That's not how a plebiscite works. It will still end up getting opened.

I agree. There will be more of a delay in it going forward, but I would still put money on it happening.
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« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2018, 06:52:10 PM »

I dont mind it being open. Realistically look around the world and in the largest cities.. No body has it closed. Its ridiculous. Underground is not safe, its confusing and not welcoming. I also dont mind the idea of the overpass for pedestrians. Building something like that would sure be iconic in Canada. If you make it attractive, lit up and maybe even have an retractable tunnel roof that goes open and closed with the seasons and weather.. that would sure be awesome. I just really don't like the underground idea. I never have. Its not like its linking to a subway or something lol.
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« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2018, 10:08:22 PM »

I agree. There will be more of a delay in it going forward, but I would still put money on it happening.

I also agree.
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« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2018, 10:09:29 PM »

I dont mind it being open. Realistically look around the world and in the largest cities.. No body has it closed. Its ridiculous. Underground is not safe, its confusing and not welcoming. I also dont mind the idea of the overpass for pedestrians. Building something like that would sure be iconic in Canada. If you make it attractive, lit up and maybe even have an retractable tunnel roof that goes open and closed with the seasons and weather.. that would sure be awesome. I just really don't like the underground idea. I never have. Its not like its linking to a subway or something lol.

Well said.  Cool ideas too.  The current underpass is getting dingy. 
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2018, 04:02:29 PM »

Well said.  Cool ideas too.  The current underpass is getting dingy. 

Bottom line is the entire intersection and square below require repairs, so something has to be done - and that'll be expensive regardless of the plan or open vs. closed.
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« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2018, 06:52:35 PM »

Bottom line is the entire intersection and square below require repairs, so something has to be done - and that'll be expensive regardless of the plan or open vs. closed.

Yep, those who oppose it because the "money could be spent better elsewhere" are in for a rude awakening when they see the cash it will take to repair the barriers and the underground.
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« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2018, 07:19:16 PM »

Yep, those who oppose it because the "money could be spent better elsewhere" are in for a rude awakening when they see the cash it will take to repair the barriers and the underground.

The underground is particularly in need of a refresh. I walk through it twice a day on my way to work and my parking spot. Everything needs to be replaced, flooring, handrails (which are constantly breaking and getting patched up), ceiling, lighting, you name it. It looks like a time capsule to the 60s or 70s or something.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2018, 08:42:39 PM »

Yes, but tax payers will not be on the hook for the repairs to the underground.
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Jesse
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« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2018, 11:06:08 PM »

Yes, but tax payers will not be on the hook for the repairs to the underground.

How do you figure that?
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2018, 06:04:43 PM »

Yes, but tax payers will not be on the hook for the repairs to the underground.

Of course they are. Who else is going to pay for it?
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Horseman
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« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2018, 08:29:26 PM »

Yep, those who oppose it because the "money could be spent better elsewhere" are in for a rude awakening when they see the cash it will take to repair the barriers and the underground.

Not opposed to it because the money could be better spent elsewhere, opposed to it to keep pedestrians from creating a traffic headache at that intersection. People being people will not obey the traffic signals and will be crossing when they aren't suppose to causing traffic delays. I remember how it was in the 70's.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2018, 08:36:56 PM »

Not opposed to it because the money could be better spent elsewhere, opposed to it to keep pedestrians from creating a traffic headache at that intersection. People being people will not obey the traffic signals and will be crossing when they aren't suppose to causing traffic delays. I remember how it was in the 70's.

But as discussed elsewhere in this thread, there are other intersections in the city that are busier and many others that would be considered very busy, and all are open to pedestrians.
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Horseman
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« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2018, 12:10:53 AM »

But as discussed elsewhere in this thread, there are other intersections in the city that are busier and many others that would be considered very busy, and all are open to pedestrians.

This is Winnipeg's major intersection in the heart of downtown. Pedestrians trying to cross this intersection at rush hour has fatal collision written all over it. End of story.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2018, 01:01:13 AM »

But as discussed elsewhere in this thread, there are other intersections in the city that are busier and many others that would be considered very busy, and all are open to pedestrians.

And those intersections do not have alternate crossing options, and have had fatalities. 

To make the corner a little more accessible to pedestrians, to shave a few minutes off a few people's "commute", you will be risking lives, and interrupting traffic, causing longer commutes and more pollution for thousands of people daily.  And, not only does it create an intersection where pedestrians are at risk, it also makes vehicular traffic more dangerous.  More accidents will happen, which will tie up traffic horribly. 

I sympathize with the people who the closed intersection inconveniences.  But I'm sorry, its just not worth the loss of time, money and lives.  There are alternatives, no one's life depends on crossing Portage and Main.  Many may want to, many may think it is their right, but it isn't...  if the city thinks that it is not worth the risk and expense... then there it is.
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« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2018, 04:21:20 AM »

And those intersections do not have alternate crossing options, and have had fatalities. 

To make the corner a little more accessible to pedestrians, to shave a few minutes off a few people's "commute", you will be risking lives, and interrupting traffic, causing longer commutes and more pollution for thousands of people daily.  And, not only does it create an intersection where pedestrians are at risk, it also makes vehicular traffic more dangerous.  More accidents will happen, which will tie up traffic horribly. 

I sympathize with the people who the closed intersection inconveniences.  But I'm sorry, its just not worth the loss of time, money and lives.  There are alternatives, no one's life depends on crossing Portage and Main.  Many may want to, many may think it is their right, but it isn't...  if the city thinks that it is not worth the risk and expense... then there it is.

I still find this argument just ridiculous. This intersection is no different than any other in the world, but for some reason if we open it up, we're risking lives?
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #73 on: November 27, 2018, 01:16:45 PM »

And those intersections do not have alternate crossing options, and have had fatalities. 

To make the corner a little more accessible to pedestrians, to shave a few minutes off a few people's "commute", you will be risking lives, and interrupting traffic, causing longer commutes and more pollution for thousands of people daily.  And, not only does it create an intersection where pedestrians are at risk, it also makes vehicular traffic more dangerous.  More accidents will happen, which will tie up traffic horribly. 

I sympathize with the people who the closed intersection inconveniences.  But I'm sorry, its just not worth the loss of time, money and lives.  There are alternatives, no one's life depends on crossing Portage and Main.  Many may want to, many may think it is their right, but it isn't...  if the city thinks that it is not worth the risk and expense... then there it is.

Absolutely ridiculous and nonsensical article. There is a certain amount of risk everyone takes every single day. When you go outside, you expose yourself to an extremely, extremely minute amount of radiation. You have a "crossing alternative" and that is to stay indoors at absolutely all times. So, do you never, ever go outside? You make it sound like 10 people would be hit by a car at this intersection every month or something. I guess you advocate for every single intersection to have an underground passage way so that no one would ever, ever be exposed to any sort of risk?
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« Reply #74 on: November 27, 2018, 01:26:44 PM »

I still find this argument just ridiculous. This intersection is no different than any other in the world, but for some reason if we open it up, we're risking lives?

Of course not. It's just the typical bass-ackwards, fear-mongering nonsense from those afraid of change. Of course, the crotchety whiners stuck in the past have absolutely no data by which to back up their weak and delusional argument.

P&M isn't some special place. It's just another intersection in an urban environment, the likes of which exist in hundreds of cities around the world. You don't see the rest of those ones closed, though.
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« Reply #75 on: November 27, 2018, 03:02:07 PM »

And those intersections do not have alternate crossing options, and have had fatalities. 

To make the corner a little more accessible to pedestrians, to shave a few minutes off a few people's "commute", you will be risking lives, and interrupting traffic, causing longer commutes and more pollution for thousands of people daily.  And, not only does it create an intersection where pedestrians are at risk, it also makes vehicular traffic more dangerous.  More accidents will happen, which will tie up traffic horribly. 

I sympathize with the people who the closed intersection inconveniences.  But I'm sorry, its just not worth the loss of time, money and lives.  There are alternatives, no one's life depends on crossing Portage and Main.  Many may want to, many may think it is their right, but it isn't...  if the city thinks that it is not worth the risk and expense... then there it is.

Loss of time - there was a study done that indicated it would cause a delay of 3-5 minutes during peak traffic times.  If you can't handle 5 extra minutes in your commute then I dunno what to say you are just unreasonable.

Money - As pointed out the city is going to have to spend money to fix the barricades and the underground walkway anyways.  Probably will be more expensive to open up Portage and Main but it isn't as expensive as people are making it out to be

Lives - Also pointed out by others, this is no different from any other intersection should we close down Lag and Regent or Moray and Portage?  They both have more vehicular traffic in those intersections than Portage and Main.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #76 on: November 27, 2018, 04:13:43 PM »

P&M has worked as it sits for decades. 

No doubt the underground could be made more friendly and reliable, with more options for the handicapable.  And, in doing so, it can be made accessable 24/7/365. 

I guess that is my biggest pet peeve about this.  We are in Winnipeg.  Any surface access is going to be subject to our weather, meaning a substantial portion of the time the intersection will be, at best, miserable to use.  And driving traffic above ground will make the subterranean routes even less attractive to be used, meaning a potential reduction of access that way.  If your only option in Dec is crossing a busy intersection in a wheelchair through 1" of snow that hasn't been cleared yet, is that better than having a 24/7/365 option in climate controlled underground that might take 5 minutes longer to navigate?

Going back and forth on the inconvenience a closed P&M causes for pedestrians and surface businesses, and the possible options for both is fine.  But when you add in the snarl of traffic issues, transit and pedestrian safety... I'm sorry, it is a nor brainer in my books..

Spend millions and make the underground better.  Give easy access to everyone 24/7/365.  And keep the already problematic traffic on the surface from becoming a huge issue. 

You think people avoid the downtown because they can't cross P&M on the surface?  Watch what happens to traffic if you can't get through P&M in less than 5 light cycles due to pedestrians in the crosswalks taking too long to clear during rush hour.  Of panhandlers being given so much new territory to ply their trade... or any of the hundred other negatives that come with opening it up... including a dead person in a wheelchair (which you know is going to happen.  Not because someone purposely runs them down, but by accident).   

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« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2018, 04:35:43 PM »

P&M has worked as it sits for decades.

And it worked for decades prior when it was open to pedestrian traffic. It'll work all the same if it does end up being opened to pedestrian traffic again. Same as any other large intersection in this city or the several others in this country and abroad. Again: P&M is nothing special. Never has been, never will be.


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Horseman
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« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2018, 06:34:17 PM »

Of course not. It's just the typical bass-ackwards, fear-mongering nonsense from those afraid of change. Of course, the crotchety whiners stuck in the past have absolutely no data by which to back up their weak and delusional argument.

P&M isn't some special place. It's just another intersection in an urban environment, the likes of which exist in hundreds of cities around the world. You don't see the rest of those ones closed, though.

No Data...we lived it in the 70's. We have something better than data and that is first hand knowledge of what the intersection will be like by allowing pedestrian traffic again!
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theaardvark
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« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2018, 06:40:16 PM »

And it worked for decades prior when it was open to pedestrian traffic. It'll work all the same if it does end up being opened to pedestrian traffic again. Same as any other large intersection in this city or the several others in this country and abroad. Again: P&M is nothing special. Never has been, never will be.

 

So, nothing has changed since it was closed?  Same traffic, same transit, same population density.  I get it.  

Unfortunately, a lot has changed.  And really, the opportunity to go forwards rather than back is right there for the taking.  

Opening it removes incentives for improving the underground, and will harm businesses down there to the point where it will eventually crumble under its lack of use during good weather.  So, when the bad weather hits, and using the surface crossing is difficult or impossible for the handicapable, or even normal pedestrians, where will they go?  

Making the underground better, more reliable and modern means ensuring a 24/7/365 solution.  It might be slightly less convenient during good weather, but it will be safe and year round access, rain/snow/blizzards will not affect it.  

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Jesse
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« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2018, 06:45:39 PM »

 

So, nothing has changed since it was closed?  Same traffic, same transit, same population density.  I get it.  

Unfortunately, a lot has changed.  And really, the opportunity to go forwards rather than back is right there for the taking.  

Opening it removes incentives for improving the underground, and will harm businesses down there to the point where it will eventually crumble under its lack of use during good weather.  So, when the bad weather hits, and using the surface crossing is difficult or impossible for the handicapable, or even normal pedestrians, where will they go?  

Making the underground better, more reliable and modern means ensuring a 24/7/365 solution.  It might be slightly less convenient during good weather, but it will be safe and year round access, rain/snow/blizzards will not affect it.  

I would also argue that the underground is not a safe environment and that many individuals don't want to go underground outside of peak traffic hours.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2018, 06:53:24 PM »

No Data...we lived it in the 70's. We have something better than data and that is first hand knowledge of what the intersection will be like by allowing pedestrian traffic again!

The term for this is, "anecdotal evidence", and it is not better than real data. lol.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2018, 06:57:18 PM »

I would also argue that the underground is not a safe environment and that many individuals don't want to go underground outside of peak traffic hours.

Not safe how?  Predators?  Evil doer's?  Sorry, but downtown that isn't limited to underground.  I would suggest that there could be better security, as well as an increased surveillance solution with central monitoring.  Without security, the surface is just as dangerous as underground.  I know I lock my doors when driving through downtown, even during the day...
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #83 on: November 27, 2018, 06:57:46 PM »

P&M has worked as it sits for decades. 

No doubt the underground could be made more friendly and reliable, with more options for the handicapable.  And, in doing so, it can be made accessable 24/7/365. 

I guess that is my biggest pet peeve about this.  We are in Winnipeg.  Any surface access is going to be subject to our weather, meaning a substantial portion of the time the intersection will be, at best, miserable to use.  And driving traffic above ground will make the subterranean routes even less attractive to be used, meaning a potential reduction of access that way.  If your only option in Dec is crossing a busy intersection in a wheelchair through 1" of snow that hasn't been cleared yet, is that better than having a 24/7/365 option in climate controlled underground that might take 5 minutes longer to navigate?

Going back and forth on the inconvenience a closed P&M causes for pedestrians and surface businesses, and the possible options for both is fine.  But when you add in the snarl of traffic issues, transit and pedestrian safety... I'm sorry, it is a nor brainer in my books..

Spend millions and make the underground better.  Give easy access to everyone 24/7/365.  And keep the already problematic traffic on the surface from becoming a huge issue. 

You think people avoid the downtown because they can't cross P&M on the surface?  Watch what happens to traffic if you can't get through P&M in less than 5 light cycles due to pedestrians in the crosswalks taking too long to clear during rush hour.  Of panhandlers being given so much new territory to ply their trade... or any of the hundred other negatives that come with opening it up... including a dead person in a wheelchair (which you know is going to happen.  Not because someone purposely runs them down, but by accident).   



Again, your entire argument is predicated on the intersection becoming dangerous and messing up traffic, when it's already been shown in this thread that will not happen.

It's an intersection. Just like the thousands of others in this city and the millions of other busier ones in much larger cities.

Also not understanding the argument about the cold...if it's -30 out, you're probably going to avoid going for a long stroll anyway and won't be saved from 3 minutes of sanctuary crossing the street underground.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2018, 07:25:52 PM »

Again, your entire argument is predicated on the intersection becoming dangerous and messing up traffic, when it's already been shown in this thread that will not happen.

It's an intersection. Just like the thousands of others in this city and the millions of other busier ones in much larger cities.

Also not understanding the argument about the cold...if it's -30 out, you're probably going to avoid going for a long stroll anyway and won't be saved from 3 minutes of sanctuary crossing the street underground.

Adding pedestrian cycles to the lights will affect traffic.  There is no debate.  And when there is a pedestrian/vehicle incident, the intersection will close and cause havoc.

Making it accessible 24/7/365 means you can take the venture at -30, or any time.  It means you will have full access regardless weather.  So, park underground, and then you are able to do whatever you want all day... even if it is a blizzard outside.   Opening the surface will eventually cause the underground to close.  Its is close to closing even with the surface closed.  Opening the intersection kills the underground, removing it as an option, stranding people in bad weather.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #85 on: November 27, 2018, 07:33:52 PM »

Adding pedestrian cycles to the lights will affect traffic.  There is no debate.  And when there is a pedestrian/vehicle incident, the intersection will close and cause havoc.

Just like every other intersection in the world!!!

Making it accessible 24/7/365 means you can take the venture at -30, or any time.  It means you will have full access regardless weather.  So, park underground, and then you are able to do whatever you want all day... even if it is a blizzard outside.   Opening the surface will eventually cause the underground to close.  Its is close to closing even with the surface closed.  Opening the intersection kills the underground, removing it as an option, stranding people in bad weather.

I hope the underground does fail and close. It's completely useless and is a giant waste of money if we follow your vision for it. It should be filled with concrete.

As I said, if it's -30 and you have the underground option, big whoop. It's not the difference between going on a "venture" and not. It's 5 minutes of reprieve. This isn't supposed to be some transformational experience, it is supposed to be crossing a street.
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Horseman
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« Reply #86 on: November 27, 2018, 08:23:38 PM »

The term for this is, "anecdotal evidence", and it is not better than real data. lol.

No because experiencing it is nothing like data...give your head a shake and listen to the rattle.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #87 on: November 27, 2018, 08:31:11 PM »

Just like every other intersection in the world!!!

I hope the underground does fail and close. It's completely useless and is a giant waste of money if we follow your vision for it. It should be filled with concrete.

As I said, if it's -30 and you have the underground option, big whoop. It's not the difference between going on a "venture" and not. It's 5 minutes of reprieve. This isn't supposed to be some transformational experience, it is supposed to be crossing a street.

Interestingly, there is an intersection in the world that does not have pedestrian traffic.  Its right here in Winnipeg.  It's called Portage and Main.  And it has an incredible record for limiting pedestrian deaths even with the huge volume of traffic.  Cool, eh?  Right here in Winnipeg.

Not talking about a 5 min reprieve in -30 weather, I'm talking about having *any* ability to cross the intersection in foul weather.  If you fill the underground with concrete, then what are the options in inclement weather for crossing the intersection?  You going to cross at -30 with a blizzerd?  Even if you are able bodied, nope.  Never mind someone needing mobility assistance.  But if there is a proper underground?  No issues, 24/1/365.
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Colton
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« Reply #88 on: November 27, 2018, 08:42:31 PM »

Interestingly, there is an intersection in the world that does not have pedestrian traffic.  Its right here in Winnipeg.  It's called Portage and Main.  And it has an incredible record for limiting pedestrian deaths even with the huge volume of traffic.  Cool, eh?  Right here in Winnipeg.

Not talking about a 5 min reprieve in -30 weather, I'm talking about having *any* ability to cross the intersection in foul weather.  If you fill the underground with concrete, then what are the options in inclement weather for crossing the intersection?  You going to cross at -30 with a blizzerd?  Even if you are able bodied, nope.  Never mind someone needing mobility assistance.  But if there is a proper underground?  No issues, 24/1/365.


If you care at all about safety like you claim to, why are you not advocating for the removal of all vehicles from our roads? The lethal part of all of this is the vehicles, not the pedestrians. Vehicles cause countless deaths each year and it isn't limited to a single intersection.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2018, 08:51:06 PM »

If you care at all about safety like you claim to, why are you not advocating for the removal of all vehicles from our roads? The lethal part of all of this is the vehicles, not the pedestrians. Vehicles cause countless deaths each year and it isn't limited to a single intersection.

Lol... perfect logic.  Let's ban people from the city.  Its not cars that kill people in traffic accidents, its the people behind the wheel.

Continued safety is not the issue, but it is a byproduct of increasing and ensuring access to using the intersection for people, vehicles and transit. 

Just picture it, an accident happens at P&M when a person enters the intersection early or late and gets struck by accident by a vehicle.  Or a vehicle hits a pedestrian who is legally in the intersection because the drive is distracted. 

What is the immediate aftermath of the incident.  Can you imagine the traffic snarl?  Both to pedestrians, commuters and transit users?  It just boggles the mind...  risking all this so that a few people can cross the street in good weather rather than navigating the underground like they have done for decades...
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2018, 08:52:11 PM »

So, nothing has changed since it was closed?  Same traffic, same transit, same population density.  I get it.  

Unfortunately, a lot has changed.  And really, the opportunity to go forwards rather than back is right there for the taking.  

Opening it removes incentives for improving the underground, and will harm businesses down there to the point where it will eventually crumble under its lack of use during good weather.  So, when the bad weather hits, and using the surface crossing is difficult or impossible for the handicapable, or even normal pedestrians, where will they go?  

Making the underground better, more reliable and modern means ensuring a 24/7/365 solution.  It might be slightly less convenient during good weather, but it will be safe and year round access, rain/snow/blizzards will not affect it.  

More nonsensical conjecture and mental gymnastics.

No Data...we lived it in the 70's. We have something better than data and that is first hand knowledge of what the intersection will be like by allowing pedestrian traffic again!

Yeah, that's not proof of anything.

No because experiencing it is nothing like data...give your head a shake and listen to the rattle.

Says the guy using anecdotal evidence to argue his point. Cheesy
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Colton
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« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2018, 08:56:23 PM »

Lol... perfect logic.  Let's ban people from the city.  Its not cars that kill people in traffic accidents, its the people behind the wheel.

Continued safety is not the issue, but it is a byproduct of increasing and ensuring access to using the intersection for people, vehicles and transit. 

Just picture it, an accident happens at P&M when a person enters the intersection early or late and gets struck by accident by a vehicle.  Or a vehicle hits a pedestrian who is legally in the intersection because the drive is distracted. 

What is the immediate aftermath of the incident.  Can you imagine the traffic snarl?  Both to pedestrians, commuters and transit users?  It just boggles the mind...  risking all this so that a few people can cross the street in good weather rather than navigating the underground like they have done for decades...

I don't have to picture it like it's some kind of hypothetical situation, it happens daily at intersections in this city and all others. The end result is the same as it is anywhere else.

You do realize people are actually hit by vehicles in real life, right? This isn't something that only would happen at Portage and Main.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #92 on: November 27, 2018, 09:07:29 PM »

I don't have to picture it like it's some kind of hypothetical situation, it happens daily at intersections in this city and all others. The end result is the same as it is anywhere else.

You do realize people are actually hit by vehicles in real life, right? This isn't something that only would happen at Portage and Main.

How many people have been hit at Portage and Main in the last 20 years?  I'm thinking that it is less than what will happen if it is opened up...

If we want to advocate for pedestrian freedom, why have crossings at all?  Let them cross higaldy pigaldy wherever they want.  If they get hit by a car, so be it.  Its a small price to pay for the freedom to cross wherever you want.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2018, 09:26:36 PM »

How many people have been hit at Portage and Main in the last 20 years?  I'm thinking that it is less than what will happen if it is opened up...

If we want to advocate for pedestrian freedom, why have crossings at all?  Let them cross higaldy pigaldy wherever they want.  If they get hit by a car, so be it.  Its a small price to pay for the freedom to cross wherever you want.

Hahaha -- Aardavarkian logic never ceases to amaze me. Legitimate laughter on this one.
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Colton
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« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2018, 09:42:23 PM »

How many people have been hit at Portage and Main in the last 20 years?  I'm thinking that it is less than what will happen if it is opened up...

If we want to advocate for pedestrian freedom, why have crossings at all?  Let them cross higaldy pigaldy wherever they want.  If they get hit by a car, so be it.  Its a small price to pay for the freedom to cross wherever you want.

It's more than what would happen if vehicles were banned from the intersection.
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Colton
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« Reply #95 on: November 27, 2018, 09:53:32 PM »

If we want to advocate for pedestrian freedom, why have crossings at all?  Let them cross higaldy pigaldy wherever they want.  If they get hit by a car, so be it.  Its a small price to pay for the freedom to cross wherever you want.

Yeah that already happens on a daily basis, it's called jaywalking and I'm not aware of it being the massive issue you seem to think it is.
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Horseman
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« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2018, 11:18:31 PM »

If you care at all about safety like you claim to, why are you not advocating for the removal of all vehicles from our roads? The lethal part of all of this is the vehicles, not the pedestrians. Vehicles cause countless deaths each year and it isn't limited to a single intersection.

Really...that is your input. Very realistic/practical.
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Horseman
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« Reply #97 on: November 27, 2018, 11:23:35 PM »

Who has the last laugh...the majority of Winnipegers voted "NO" to opening the intersection to pedestrians, we win, end of story. See you when a new mayor is voted in maybe he will give your silly idea some merit. Till then live with it and use the underground walkway to cross and quit whining.
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Colton
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« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2018, 12:21:07 AM »

Who has the last laugh...the majority of Winnipegers voted "NO" to opening the intersection to pedestrians, we win, end of story. See you when a new mayor is voted in maybe he will give your silly idea some merit. Till then live with it and use the underground walkway to cross and quit whining.

Says the guy who wouldn't stop crying about legal weed.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2018, 01:43:48 AM »

Who has the last laugh...the majority of Winnipegers voted "NO" to opening the intersection to pedestrians, we win, end of story. See you when a new mayor is voted in maybe he will give your silly idea some merit. Till then live with it and use the underground walkway to cross and quit whining.

What a trash comment. You do realize a plebiscite isn't legally binding, right...? And you apparently forgot his platform in 2014 ran on opening the intersection. He doesn't have to honour the results of an essentially meaningless referendum, anyway.

And the fact is this: millions need to be spent on repairing the intersection, both at ground level and below in the concourse. That means likely closing lanes at P&M in the future to accommodate those repairs.

But enjoy your "victory"... LOL Cheesy

Says the guy who wouldn't stop crying about legal weed.

Comical. Cheesy
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Horseman
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« Reply #100 on: November 28, 2018, 01:52:16 AM »

P&M closed for pedestrians, end of story, keep whining about it. :-)
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Jesse
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« Reply #101 on: November 28, 2018, 01:57:27 AM »

P&M closed for pedestrians, end of story, keep whining about it. :-)

We'll see. I very much doubt this is the last we hear of it.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #102 on: November 28, 2018, 03:16:01 PM »

No because experiencing it is nothing like data...give your head a shake and listen to the rattle.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Good one!

Cuck-ah!

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