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Author Topic: Raymond Comier not guilty in murder of Tina Fontaine  (Read 2005 times)
gbill2004
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« on: February 23, 2018, 12:16:13 AM »

I?ve been following this case quite closely in the CBC?s court reports. I feel the system as a whole failed Tina. The City of Winnipeg Police made several errors in their investigation.  But in my opinion, the jury did their job, as I feel there was reasonable doubt in the crown?s case.

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blue_or_die
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2018, 01:03:45 AM »

I?ve been following this case quite closely in the CBC?s court reports. I feel the system as a whole failed Tina. The City of Winnipeg Police made several errors in their investigation.  But in my opinion, the jury did their job, as I feel there was reasonable doubt in the crown?s case.



Pretty crazy that this is the way the world works. Everyone knows the truth except the State. OJ.

RIP.
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Chris1982
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2018, 07:40:18 AM »

This is a topic that could get very, very controversial and heated.  I personally do not think this should be discussed on this forum, but I will just leave it at that. 
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gbill2004
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2018, 08:53:30 AM »

This is a topic that could get very, very controversial and heated.  I personally do not think this should be discussed on this forum, but I will just leave it at that. 
If you can?t handle the discussion then stay out of this thread. Problem solved.
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Chris1982
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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2018, 09:07:17 AM »

If you can?t handle the discussion then stay out of this thread. Problem solved.

Please do not start an unnecessary argument with me.  This topic can be and has potential to become very racially motivated and biased.  It could get ugly, and I do not think this topic is appropriate for this forum.  I will not be taking part in any of this discussion.  I do not need any ignorant comments from you.  I offered my 2 cents on this subject, if you dont like them, then ignore my comments.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2018, 09:19:55 AM »

Please do not start an unnecessary argument with me.  This topic can be and has potential to become very racially motivated and biased.  It could get ugly, and I do not think this topic is appropriate for this forum.  I will not be taking part in any of this discussion.  I do not need any ignorant comments from you.  I offered my 2 cents on this subject, if you dont like them, then ignore my comments.
And if it gets too controversial or the mods think it?s inappropriate, then the mods can lock it. It?s also quite possible to have a mature, intelligent discussion on the topic; I?ve seen that happen on other message boards. Seriously if you can?t handle the discussion then stay out of here. No need to be making these comments 2 posts in. I for one am interested in hearing what others think of the trial and outcome.
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Chris1982
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2018, 09:26:08 AM »

And if it gets too controversial or the mods think it?s inappropriate, then the mods can lock it. It?s also quite possible to have a mature, intelligent discussion on the topic; I?ve seen that happen on other message boards. Seriously if you can?t handle the discussion then stay out of here. No need to be making these comments 2 posts in. I for one am interested in hearing what others think of the trial and outcome.

I have every right to offer my opinion, and I did.  Like I say, if you dont like my opinion, then ignore it.  You do not need to comment on every single reply.  Just because you dont like someones opinion or comment, it doesnt mean you have to criticize it.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2018, 09:29:03 AM »

I have every right to offer my opinion, and I did.  Like I say, if you dont like my opinion, then ignore it.  You do not need to comment on every single reply.  Just because you dont like someones opinion or comment, it doesnt mean you have to criticize it.
And you?ve stated your opinion loud and clear. As far as I can tell you aren?t a moderator. If the topic makes you so uncomfortable, stay out. It?s really that simple.

And I don?t see anywhere where I criticized your opinion. You feel the thread is inappropriate?  That?s cool. Then stay out and don?t participate. That?s not criticizing your opinion.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:31:52 AM by gbill2004 » Logged
Chris1982
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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2018, 09:37:32 AM »

And you?ve stated your opinion loud and clear. As far as I can tell you aren?t a moderator. If the topic makes you so uncomfortable, stay out. It?s really that simple.

And I don?t see anywhere where I criticized your opinion. You feel the thread is inappropriate?  That?s cool. Then stay out and don?t participate. That?s not criticizing your opinion.


I simply made a comment on the topic.  There was no need for you to personally reply to my comment if you didnt like it.  If you just let me state my initial opinion, and left it alone, none of this discussion would have happened.  There was no  need to start this debate.  My initial comment was about the TOPIC.  Like I say, just let people comment and offer their opinion, without personally attacking what they write. 

Read back everything we just wrote.  If you just let me offer my 2 cents on the topic after my first comment, and ignored it.... all of this unnecessary banter would not have happened. 
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gbill2004
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2018, 09:49:48 AM »

I simply made a comment on the topic.  There was no need for you to personally reply to my comment if you didnt like it.  If you just let me state my initial opinion, and left it alone, none of this discussion would have happened.  There was no  need to start this debate.  My initial comment was about the TOPIC.  Like I say, just let people comment and offer their opinion, without personally attacking what they write. 

Read back everything we just wrote.  If you just let me offer my 2 cents on the topic after my first comment, and ignored it.... all of this unnecessary banter would not have happened. 
And you trying to shut down an important discussion before it even gets started is problematic for me, which is why I said, if the topic makes you so uncomfortable, stay out. That?s not criticizing your opinion, or a personal attack. That?s a solution that you may want to consider in light of your issue with the topic.
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Chris1982
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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2018, 09:54:01 AM »

And you trying to shut down an important discussion before it even gets started is problematic for me, which is why I said, if the topic makes you so uncomfortable, stay out. That?s not criticizing your opinion, or a personal attack. That?s a solution that you may want to consider in light of your issue with the topic.

Blah blah.... sounds like a broken record.  Whatever.  I am done with this.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2018, 12:05:09 PM »

From Ace Burpee: There is a march in Tina Fontaine?s honour this morning. Meet at Winnipeg courthouse. 408 York Ave. 10:30am.
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Jesse
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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2018, 12:09:06 PM »

This is a tough one for sure. Obviously, nothing can bring Tina back, all we were hoping for was justice and closure for the family. This verdict, right or wrong, robs them of that.

I wish they had been able to determine cause of death, or find some additional evidence other than his own untrustworthy statements.
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Jesse
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« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2018, 12:10:15 PM »

From Ace Burpee: There is a march in Tina Fontaine?s honour this morning. Meet at Winnipeg courthouse. 408 York Ave. 10:30am.

That?s been going around Twitter.

I wonder how well attended it will be.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2018, 12:19:02 PM »

This is a tough one for sure. Obviously, nothing can bring Tina back, all we were hoping for was justice and closure for the family. This verdict, right or wrong, robs them of that.

I wish they had been able to determine cause of death, or find some additional evidence other than his own untrustworthy statements.
I'm no legal expert so how does it work now?  Is the case just closed now, or because Cormier was found not guilty, do the Winnipeg Police start up their investigation again?  Cormier may very well be the killer, but the case was based on circumstantial evidence. 
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2018, 01:28:11 PM »

I'm no legal expert so how does it work now?  Is the case just closed now, or because Cormier was found not guilty, do the Winnipeg Police start up their investigation again?  Cormier may very well be the killer, but the case was based on circumstantial evidence. 

As Canadians, we should all know the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you're acquitted you cannot be charged with the same crime again. Here's what it guarantees:

(h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again;
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gbill2004
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« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2018, 01:29:56 PM »

As Canadians, we should all know the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If If you're acquitted you cannot be charged with the same crime again. Here's what it guarantees:

(h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again;
Oh yes I understand that Cormier cannot be tried again.  But I mean will the police start investigating for another suspect, or is the case closed?

I also read yesterday that the Winnipeg Police are considering an appeal, which I didn't know could be done on an acquittal. 
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2018, 01:37:58 PM »

Oh yes I understand that Cormier cannot be tried again.  But I mean will the police start investigating for another suspect, or is the case closed?

I also read yesterday that the Winnipeg Police are considering an appeal, which I didn't know could be done on an acquittal. 

Oh, gotcha. Yea, I'm not sure and I don't know much about the appeal process. I assume they could only consider appealing procedural elements of the case that may have impacted the jury, like if the judge didn't follow the established procedure or allowed(disallowed)evidence that they should/should not have for some legal/procedural reason. I think it almost never happens. Might be good PR in this case though.
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Jockitch
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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2018, 02:06:24 PM »

It is sad & tragic that no offender has been brought to justice & found guilty, however ........ her family has been extremely guilty in her upbringing & interest in the young girl
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Jesse
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« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2018, 04:47:53 PM »

Oh yes I understand that Cormier cannot be tried again.  But I mean will the police start investigating for another suspect, or is the case closed?

I also read yesterday that the Winnipeg Police are considering an appeal, which I didn't know could be done on an acquittal. 

I don't believe there are any other suspects. So I'm guessing that it's over from a police perspective.
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NorthernSkunk
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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2018, 05:35:12 PM »

It is sad & tragic that no offender has been brought to justice & found guilty, however ........ her family has been extremely guilty in her upbringing & interest in the young girl

Totally.
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blue_gold_84
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Fort Hew


« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2018, 05:54:09 PM »

Pretty crazy that this is the way the world works. Everyone knows the truth except the State. OJ.

RIP.

A justice system in a first world country where the accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty...? What's crazy about that?

The Crown's job is to prove culpability beyond a reasonable doubt. It didn't do so and a jury of the accused peer's found him not guilty. The Crown's evidence was circumstantial at best.

Oh yes I understand that Cormier cannot be tried again.  But I mean will the police start investigating for another suspect, or is the case closed?

I also read yesterday that the Winnipeg Police are considering an appeal, which I didn't know could be done on an acquittal. 

I'm sure there will be pressure for the WPS to continue investigating. I'm not sure how much luck they'll have, though.

I also haven't the slightest how there's any avenue for appeal.

It is sad & tragic that no offender has been brought to justice & found guilty, however ........ her family has been extremely guilty in her upbringing & interest in the young girl

Couldn't agree more.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2018, 06:43:10 PM »

A justice system in a first world country where the accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty...? What's crazy about that?

The Crown's job is to prove culpability beyond a reasonable doubt. It didn't do so and a jury of the accused peer's found him not guilty. The Crown's evidence was circumstantial at best.


I  agree with the decision made within the boundaries dictated by the law, and I do obviously agree with "innocent until proven guilty". What I do know is, like so many other cases, the writing is on the wall and the actual verdict is different. The prosecution failed to make a case beyond "reasonable doubt" that instantly eliminates conviction, and I wish that were not the case. That's why I said "OJ". This is our justice system, for better or for worse.
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blue_gold_84
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Fort Hew


« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2018, 07:52:06 PM »

I  agree with the decision made within the boundaries dictated by the law, and I do obviously agree with "innocent until proven guilty". What I do know is, like so many other cases, the writing is on the wall and the actual verdict is different. The prosecution failed to make a case beyond "reasonable doubt" that instantly eliminates conviction, and I wish that were not the case. That's why I said "OJ". This is our justice system, for better or for worse.

So many other cases...? And what was the writing on the wall regarding this case?

I understand the justice system is flawed and is frustrating more often than not, but what would you prefer as the alternative to "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?"
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#forthew

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blue_or_die
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2018, 08:07:49 PM »

So many other cases...? And what was the writing on the wall regarding this case?

I understand the justice system is flawed and is frustrating more often than not, but what would you prefer as the alternative to "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?"

First part: the audio tapes basically show that he did it. Not good enough for a court of law beyond reasonable doubt, but it's pretty clear. Again, the easiest and most famous comparison (although certainly not perfect) is OJ. We all know he did it, but that was not the verdict.

Second part: I propose nothing. I was only commenting that I think it is sad when the criminal gets acquitted. I would prefer a prosecution that is able to get sufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

Like I said, I actually agree with the verdict within the constraints of the system, but that doesn't mean the outcome was correct.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2018, 08:25:50 PM »

Circumstantial evidence and surveillance tapes from a planted "confidant" are a tough sell to a "beyond a reasonable doubt" jury.  The unfortunate thing is now if they find new evidence, he's already been tried. 

Was a lot of time and money invested, with an outcome that just really makes things worse.  I guess the prosecution thought they had enough... and probably felt the pressure to move forward.



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Pigskin
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2018, 03:59:54 PM »

Unfortunately everyone failed her. It all starts at home, and carried on right up until the trial.
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GCn18
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« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2018, 03:01:25 AM »

These Mr. Big stings are seeing defendants get off with regularity now. Most juries are finding that these confessions are highly coerced through promises of huge compensation if they only admit to doing it or threats of mobsters being after them if they don't come clean. Judges have been very harsh in their criticism of how police have conducted themselvesu
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Horseman
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« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2018, 08:59:40 PM »

Our system is based on the premise: "It is better to let a guilty person go free than to send one innocent person to jail". That is our system. I was told quite some time ago that you don't go to court expecting justice, you go to court for interpretation of the law. The fault in this matter in my opinion rests solely on the shoulders of the Crown. The WPS conducted their investigation along with a mister big sting.

The first problem was the coroner could not determine the cause of death and ruled her death undetermined. Therefore, you cannot convict someone for homicide when the coroner cannot say the person died as a result of homicide. Second the evidence gained from the mister big sting (audio recordings) did not have Cormier saying to anyone that he killed her. He may have implied that, but the defence was easily able to put a different meaning to the innuendos Cormier said.

The quilt that Tina was wrapped up in was purchased at Costco but Costco sold 100 of the same quilts to other people, no one could say that the quilt Tina was wrapped up in belonged 100% to Cormier and could only say Cormier had a similar one. There was no DNA evidence on the quilt linking Cormier to it.The Crown and police only get one shot at convicting someone, so you need to be sure the evidence you are going to provide will convict someone beyond a reasonable doubt.

The fruits of the investigation would have been reviewed by a senior Crown attorney who should have known the evidence they had gathered to date would not have been enough to convict (weak case) Cormier, yet the Crown authorized the charges. They should not have gone to trial yet, but waited to try to obtain further evidence in the future. Did Cormier do it? probably, unfortunately he will never be convicted of it now, even if he stands on the corner of Portage and Main and screams loudly that he did it, he cannot be tried on it again.

All the defence needs to do is convince only 1 juror there is not enough evidence and the case is lost for the Crown. So, after all this what does this say. It shows that our system, good bad or otherwise, works as it is suppose to. Not enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, unfortunately for Tina and her family.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 12:13:48 PM by Horseman » Logged
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