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Author Topic: CFL Must increase the Salary cap!  (Read 5698 times)
Austin85
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« on: February 03, 2018, 03:40:17 PM »

They have to increase it big time in the next CBA
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gbill2004
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2018, 04:05:41 PM »

Unless the TSN deal increases significantly, or the deal with ESPN/NFLN that Ambrosie mentioned is for big money, I don't see this happening. 
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NorthernSkunk
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2018, 04:08:54 PM »

They could always increase the price of beer at the games....
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2018, 04:40:13 PM »

Unless the TSN deal increases significantly, or the deal with ESPN/NFLN that Ambrosie mentioned is for big money, I don't see this happening. 

This. It's not just some simple matter to increase the SMS cap.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2018, 04:51:57 PM »

Oh it will go up but nothing significant. Depending on how long the deal is for it will go up perhaps in the $50K per year. Maybe $75K per year?

What will be of more interest is what else changes regarding player contracts, roster size and ratio.

I'd like to see the roster size increased by a couple of Canadian players but that in itself adds cost to SMS. So that probably doesn't happen.

The best option might be to use the annual increase directed to the minimum level salaries. Even at $75K a year and those players on entry deals it's still not going to increase by a big amount.

Just a thought.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2018, 04:56:30 PM »

Cap has been raised 20% since the last CBA.  And we're having issues. 

Raising the SMS isn't going to solve anything.  Min salary in the CFL is more than a living wage.  Anything above that is bonus for you to earn playing a game you love.  And our "stars" make a substantial amount of money compared to what most will make post playing career.

If that's not good enough for you to "risk your health", no one is forcing you to play. 

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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2018, 05:42:43 PM »

there shouldn't be any reason why the CFL couldn't perform as well and have as big of draw as a college conference does here in the states. And no, I know that there isn't enough interest north to support it, so don't even go there. However, if the CFL were to do something similar to what the SEC did, create their own channel/network, with proper marketing I believe they could pull similar numbers. You have to remember that the majority of the SEC viewership is the south east portion of the states. While the CFL wouldn't be as concentrated it could pull viewership from all states.  Here's the kind of money the SEC Conference pulled in 2016-17 fiscal year, and this excludes ticket sales and direct university revenues, this is just the conference for redistribution...

From RockMNation.com


    "The SEC generated $596.9 million in revenue for the 2016-17 fiscal year and distributed an average of approximately $40.9 million to 14 members, the league announced Thursday.

    The average distribution from the league does not include bowl revenue retained by participating schools, which totals $23.1 million. The SEC?s payout for the most recent fiscal year, which ended Aug. 31, represents a slight increase from fiscal year 2015-16, when the league generated $584.2 million and distributed approximately $40.4 million to its members, excluding bowl money. [...]

    The SEC currently distributes the most revenue, on average, to its members. The Big Ten is second after distributing $34.8 million to its fully vested members in its 2016 fiscal year, the most recent to be reported."


and before all of the Debbie Doubters say it's not possible, image if they could secure just half of this, $20M per team... you could raise the SMS to $20M and they, each team, could keep the $30M they already generate for operating expense. This would mean that the entry level salary could be somewhere around $200K-$225K, enough to get and keep talented players. If you can pay a player like that, there is less interest to go south, some may even have no interest, who knows...

SEC Network is carried on DirecTV, Dish, Cox, Google Fiber, and then select games are carried on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, and some regular Networks. If the NFL Network, which would be another prime candidate to carry additional programming, can keep year round viewership, just think what they could do program wise if they had the CFL to fill in the non stop reruns of daily programming they do now.

Someone with vision needs to be running this league...
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 05:46:37 PM »

there shouldn't be any reason why the CFL couldn't perform as well and have as big of draw as a college conference does here in the states. And no, I know that there isn't enough interest north to support it, so don't even go there. However, if the CFL were to do something similar to what the SEC did, create their own channel/network, with proper marketing I believe they could pull similar numbers. You have to remember that the majority of the SEC viewership is the south east portion of the states. While the CFL wouldn't be as concentrated it could pull viewership from all states.  Here's the kind of money the SEC Conference pulled in 2016-17 fiscal year, and this excludes ticket sales and direct university revenues, this is just the conference for redistribution...

From RockMNation.com


    "The SEC generated $596.9 million in revenue for the 2016-17 fiscal year and distributed an average of approximately $40.9 million to 14 members, the league announced Thursday.

    The average distribution from the league does not include bowl revenue retained by participating schools, which totals $23.1 million. The SEC?s payout for the most recent fiscal year, which ended Aug. 31, represents a slight increase from fiscal year 2015-16, when the league generated $584.2 million and distributed approximately $40.4 million to its members, excluding bowl money. [...]

    The SEC currently distributes the most revenue, on average, to its members. The Big Ten is second after distributing $34.8 million to its fully vested members in its 2016 fiscal year, the most recent to be reported."


and before all of the Debbie Doubters say it's not possible, image if they could secure just half of this, $20M per team... you could raise the SMS to $20M and they, each team, could keep the $30M they already generate for operating expense. This would mean that the entry level salary could be somewhere around $200K-$225K, enough to get and keep talented players. If you can pay a player like that, there is less interest to go south, some may even have no interest, who knows...

SEC Network is carried on DirecTV, Dish, Cox, Google Fiber, and then select games are carried on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, and some regular Networks. If the NFL Network, which would be another prime candidate to carry additional programming, can keep year round viewership, just think what they could do program wise if they had the CFL to fill in the non stop reruns of daily programming they do now.

Someone with vision needs to be running this league...


You're dreaming. It has nothing to do with vision. It has to do with population. Many US universities have larger stadiums than anything in the CFL. Attendance is high as is TV revenues.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2018, 05:57:59 PM »

You're dreaming. It has nothing to do with vision. It has to do with population. Many US universities have larger stadiums than anything in the CFL. Attendance is high as is TV revenues.

did you not see that this does not include tickets sales, or university generated revenue, or bowl money? And I wouldn't be going after the Canadian viewing audience, I'd tap into the virgin ground of the USA, where except for a few games shown on ESPN2, you have to watch online...

awareness for one, nobody really knows about the CFL here, ESPN carried nothing CFL related, including highlights or even scores during the season. Everyone I mention it to says practically the same thing "I had forgotten all about the CFL, when do they play"...

ticket sales is the least of a teams worries, you need to get viewership from multiple homes. advertising dollars is what pays the way for the NFL, as it should for the CFL.

I may be dreaming, as you say, but you miss every shot you don't take... if I had listened to people that told me I was dreaming when I retired to start my own business, I wouldn't be sitting on the stack of cash I am today, just saying...  There is 36M Canadians, there are 323M Americans, according to a quick Google search, it is estimated that the CFL currently has an average viewership of 500K, the NFL 18.2M... tell me there isn't enough there to have interest and cross over...
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dd
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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2018, 06:16:03 PM »

We tried the great US experiment 20 years ago, and if failed miserably-primarily because they expanded in obscure small market US cities, where football wasn't king.

Now re-thinking this, I think if they targeted large US television markets that in close proximity to the Canadian border ie Detroit, Buffalo, New York, Chicago, that are 'football' communities, maybe TV uptake is there--its worth a shot to increase revenue, improve salaries and improve the on field product.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2018, 06:16:05 PM »

Plus, the CFL is the right game, at the right time to come in a pick up all of the people that are sick of the NFL and what it has come to be. All the prima donna superstars making more money than anyone can count, yet still complain and come off as entitled. The constant talk of games being fixed.

Like it's been said here, the CFL is the 'working man's league'. It would appeal to all of the hard working middle class that would appreciate the teams, view players as someone that plays for the love of the game. The cozy league where you know everyone that plays and interesting to follow. This is a diamond in the rough, especially when you throw in the quality of the end product. NCAA football continues to rise, NFL is slipping, why not take advantage of the 100's of players coming out of the NCAA each year that will never make an NFL roster yet has a impassioned following.

Again, a quick Google search suggest that 1 in 50 college seniors make it to the NFL, 1 in 50... at least 5 to 10 of that discarded 50 could have the skill set to challenge for a position in the CFL. There are roughly 17,000 college seniors that play NCAA football, 256 of them will be drafted into the NFL annually. And then you throw in the interest from Fantasy Football??? Recipe for success...
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2018, 06:18:51 PM »

We tried the great US experiment 20 years ago, and if failed miserably-primarily because they expanded in obscure small market US cities, where football wasn't king.

Now re-thinking this, I think if they targeted large US television markets that in close proximity to the Canadian border ie Detroit, Buffalo, New York, Chicago, that are 'football' communities, maybe TV uptake is there--its worth a shot to increase revenue, improve salaries and improve the on field product.

No expansion into the USA, all teams will continue to be located and play in Canada. Also, in the last 20 years cable is on the skids, national providers are the go to group now. You don't have to convince 3,000, or whatever the number could have been, local cable providers to see the vision, just a couple of huge providers that cover the entire nation.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2018, 06:21:20 PM »

with the XFL wanting to try a comeback in 2020, it's now time for the CFL to swing for the fences.  Because they can either, watch it happen, make it happen, or wonder what the **** happened....

at the end of the day you shouldn't care who is watching, just that someone is... last time I checked green money spends regardless of where it is generated...
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2018, 06:30:23 PM »

plus, with expanded viewership and more money for players, the CFL would become a recruiting tool for American colleges. Must like now, now these schools like to brag about how many players they put in the NFL, they would do the same with the CFL, especially those schools that still have a huge following yet not considered the 'elite' like Alabama, Ohio State, USC, etc....

A 12 league team would be the sweet spot, I think, 2 divisions of 6 each, or even 16 at the most, 4 divisions of 4. You could split the country in half, 2 divison West, 2 division East.. less traveling, more play off games, more revenue... But for starters shoot for 12, it might require some ratio modification early on, but, with more money, you may see more Canadians concentrating of football...
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2018, 06:47:24 PM »

plus, with expanded viewership and more money for players, the CFL would become a recruiting tool for American colleges. Must like now, now these schools like to brag about how many players they put in the NFL, they would do the same with the CFL, especially those schools that still have a huge following yet not considered the 'elite' like Alabama, Ohio State, USC, etc....

A 12 league team would be the sweet spot, I think, 2 divisions of 6 each, or even 16 at the most, 4 divisions of 4. You could split the country in half, 2 divison West, 2 division East.. less traveling, more play off games, more revenue... But for starters shoot for 12, it might require some ratio modification early on, but, with more money, you may see more Canadians concentrating of football...

Like I said, you're dreaming. If the interest was there TSN would already be broadcasting more CFL games in the US and TV revenue would increase.

You're trying to invent the "  new wheel " that doesn't exist.

We've wanted a 10th team for decades and you're suggesting 12 teams as a sweet spot. Laughable when we don't have the city populations or stadium's to make any of that happen.
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The Zipp
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« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2018, 07:02:49 PM »

there shouldn't be any reason why the CFL couldn't perform as well and have as big of draw as a college conference does here in the states. And no, I know that there isn't enough interest north to support it, so don't even go there. However, if the CFL were to do something similar to what the SEC did, create their own channel/network, with proper marketing I believe they could pull similar numbers. You have to remember that the majority of the SEC viewership is the south east portion of the states. While the CFL wouldn't be as concentrated it could pull viewership from all states.  Here's the kind of money the SEC Conference pulled in 2016-17 fiscal year, and this excludes ticket sales and direct university revenues, this is just the conference for redistribution...

From RockMNation.com


    "The SEC generated $596.9 million in revenue for the 2016-17 fiscal year and distributed an average of approximately $40.9 million to 14 members, the league announced Thursday.

    The average distribution from the league does not include bowl revenue retained by participating schools, which totals $23.1 million. The SEC?s payout for the most recent fiscal year, which ended Aug. 31, represents a slight increase from fiscal year 2015-16, when the league generated $584.2 million and distributed approximately $40.4 million to its members, excluding bowl money. [...]

    The SEC currently distributes the most revenue, on average, to its members. The Big Ten is second after distributing $34.8 million to its fully vested members in its 2016 fiscal year, the most recent to be reported."


and before all of the Debbie Doubters say it's not possible, image if they could secure just half of this, $20M per team... you could raise the SMS to $20M and they, each team, could keep the $30M they already generate for operating expense. This would mean that the entry level salary could be somewhere around $200K-$225K, enough to get and keep talented players. If you can pay a player like that, there is less interest to go south, some may even have no interest, who knows...

SEC Network is carried on DirecTV, Dish, Cox, Google Fiber, and then select games are carried on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, and some regular Networks. If the NFL Network, which would be another prime candidate to carry additional programming, can keep year round viewership, just think what they could do program wise if they had the CFL to fill in the non stop reruns of daily programming they do now.

Someone with vision needs to be running this league...



CFL ahead of the times - maybe too early...give this a read Chevelle:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Football_Network
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Tehedra
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« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2018, 07:23:53 PM »

I don't disagree with chevelle, I think a more concentrated expansion of a airing the shows would help. You might not even need to expand the teams, just getting our game in front of an audience might be enough. He does have a point, all it might take is the CFL network to be ran the right way.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2018, 07:29:14 PM »


CFL ahead of the times - maybe too early...give this a read Chevelle:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Football_Network

great read and very informational as well... and you are right, ahead of their time... however, things have changed dramatically in last 30 years, both in technology and available avenues to market and present your product. Plus, tape delayed anything is pointless, in this world of the internet you can be updated by the second, viewing has to have the same capabilities... I know you know that, and I think you are right, they were just a little too early...

if soccer, international soccer no less, can gain a viewership here in the USA I have to believe that there is opportunity here. Go to a NCAA soccer game, they may be 25 fans there watching. Yet you can find soccer on the tube almost anytime. I never watch it, but it shows that there is an audience for a sport that isn't played here. And by played here I mean the teams on the tube are not from here and a heck of a lot further away than Canada.

Now seems like an opportunity, there are a lot of fans unhappy with the current NFL product and with the quality of the CFL product there is opportunity to capture these fans. Oddly enough, I spent considerably more time following the CFL this year than the NFL. I would watch a CFL over a NFL game other than maybe a Chiefs game, maybe.  Plus, with the glut of people that are into Fantasy Football, the money involved... put it in front of them...

And, if the money is there, it is entirely possible to think that you could expand the league by 3 teams. There is already talk of a Halifax expansion, I don't think that it's a stretch to think that you could find interest in an up and coming league for 2 entities to be interested in funding 2 more teams.

Yet, I concede the fact that I'm an optimist, and I see the glass as half full... but if any time was right it would be now... if the XFL makes a successful run at it there may not be as good an opportunity once they are established... or, we can all just sit back and claim there is nothing that can be done and accept whatever fate comes this way...  I'm more of a 'make it happen' type of person, forgive my zeal...
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Jockitch
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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2018, 07:34:42 PM »

Let's not be ready to give TSN to much credit ....... after all, they can't seem to see the light beyond Rod Black.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2018, 07:40:41 PM »

I don't disagree with chevelle, I think a more concentrated expansion of a airing the shows would help. You might not even need to expand the teams, just getting our game in front of an audience might be enough. He does have a point, all it might take is the CFL network to be ran the right way.

I never once thought through out the year that only 9 teams was an issue. Like someone else noted, it makes the league 'cozy' because you can be familiar with all of the players, hence generate more interest... I'm just saying that if the money is there I think there would be additional interest in team ownership. But, I don't think there is a need to expand to be successful...

There are a lot of fans like me that would want to see the guys that play on Saturday have a professional opportunity... to say that if any one CFL team had 4 or 5 players from any one of the Power 5 teams, say Missouri, that the fan base wouldn't follow, well, you are greatly under estimating the fan support of these teams and players... Like I've said before, MU on average sits 62,500 at each home game... Then throw in the viewership due to every one of their games being televised? it's huge...

People don't want to see 1 game a month on ESPNU, but give them something they can follow consistently and through out the entire season, especially when it's done without the competition of any other football?Huh? seriously, there is someone knocking at the door, will someone please answer it!

and in closing, it's not like I'm a fellow Canadian trying to sell a product that I've watched from childhood... I'm saying as an American, that there is value in this great product known as the CFL...  The Superbowl is tomorrow, yet here I am trying to sell CFL expansion... believe me, there is a ton of programming on right now pregaming the big one...
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NorthernSkunk
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« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2018, 08:22:06 PM »

Let's not be ready to give TSN to much credit ....... after all, they can't seem to see the light beyond Rod Black.

My liver is appreciating not having to play the Rod Black drinking game....
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theaardvark
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« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2018, 11:01:16 PM »

CFL vs. NCAA is a discussion that is a non starter. 

The coaches in the NCAA can make more than a CFL teams total budget, a single game gate is probably more than some teams annual gate.  And the main expense in the CFL is salary, and NCAA players do not get paid.

The CFL is a distinct entity like none other.  Players get paid a lot more than they otherwise could earn playing football anywhere else outside the NFL.  It is finally somewhat financially stable and not relying on rich owners supplementing costs.

Its fine, it works, and messing with it will be a disaster.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2018, 11:25:24 PM »

CFL vs. NCAA is a discussion that is a non starter. 

The coaches in the NCAA can make more than a CFL teams total budget, a single game gate is probably more than some teams annual gate.  And the main expense in the CFL is salary, and NCAA players do not get paid.

The CFL is a distinct entity like none other.  Players get paid a lot more than they otherwise could earn playing football anywhere else outside the NFL.  It is finally somewhat financially stable and not relying on rich owners supplementing costs.

Its fine, it works, and messing with it will be a disaster.

i have no clue what you're talking about... what does NCAA coaches have to do with anything?  not doing something may be the disaster...
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theaardvark
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2018, 04:51:56 AM »

i have no clue what you're talking about... what does NCAA coaches have to do with anything?  not doing something may be the disaster...

Sorry, sir, but its working just fine, has been for a long time.  There was a time when US players chose the CFL because the pay was higher here...

There are a few malcontents, sure.  But look at all the players who have signed with the Bombers lately for example.  None are probably making more than league min (other than Gaitor and Durant), and ALL are happy to have a job. 

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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2018, 06:05:54 AM »

great read and very informational as well... and you are right, ahead of their time... however, things have changed dramatically in last 30 years, both in technology and available avenues to market and present your product. Plus, tape delayed anything is pointless, in this world of the internet you can be updated by the second, viewing has to have the same capabilities... I know you know that, and I think you are right, they were just a little too early...

if soccer, international soccer no less, can gain a viewership here in the USA I have to believe that there is opportunity here. Go to a NCAA soccer game, they may be 25 fans there watching. Yet you can find soccer on the tube almost anytime. I never watch it, but it shows that there is an audience for a sport that isn't played here. And by played here I mean the teams on the tube are not from here and a heck of a lot further away than Canada.

Now seems like an opportunity, there are a lot of fans unhappy with the current NFL product and with the quality of the CFL product there is opportunity to capture these fans. Oddly enough, I spent considerably more time following the CFL this year than the NFL. I would watch a CFL over a NFL game other than maybe a Chiefs game, maybe.  Plus, with the glut of people that are into Fantasy Football, the money involved... put it in front of them...

And, if the money is there, it is entirely possible to think that you could expand the league by 3 teams. There is already talk of a Halifax expansion, I don't think that it's a stretch to think that you could find interest in an up and coming league for 2 entities to be interested in funding 2 more teams.

Yet, I concede the fact that I'm an optimist, and I see the glass as half full... but if any time was right it would be now... if the XFL makes a successful run at it there may not be as good an opportunity once they are established... or, we can all just sit back and claim there is nothing that can be done and accept whatever fate comes this way...  I'm more of a 'make it happen' type of person, forgive my zeal...

I don't know if you've ever visited any sports streaming sites on the Web but they are sponsored almost exclusively by on-line gambling and there are hundreds of events every day that can be streamed and bet on worldwide, tapping into the Asian market and their population of billions.  I'm not sure the people that frequent these sites care a hoot about what event is being shown, they're focus is on the outcome and the bets they place.  If the CFL and their broadcaster could profit from this extended viewership in any way it could possibly make gate revenue virtually irrelevant in the near future.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2018, 06:34:00 AM »

Plus, the CFL is the right game, at the right time to come in a pick up all of the people that are sick of the NFL and what it has come to be. All the prima donna superstars making more money than anyone can count, yet still complain and come off as entitled. The constant talk of games being fixed.

Like it's been said here, the CFL is the 'working man's league'. It would appeal to all of the hard working middle class that would appreciate the teams, view players as someone that plays for the love of the game. The cozy league where you know everyone that plays and interesting to follow. This is a diamond in the rough, especially when you throw in the quality of the end product. NCAA football continues to rise, NFL is slipping, why not take advantage of the 100's of players coming out of the NCAA each year that will never make an NFL roster yet has a impassioned following.

Chevelle sees it.  He nailed it as good as any seasoned BB fan I've talked to at games.  Many NFL fans (even American ex-pats) mention "know all their names" as a key feature of the CFL.

I don't see how the CFL could fail to attract decent viewership in the US if it would just get heavily promoted (like ads on ESPN1 during NFL games).  You need to reach a tipping point.  Marketing has to be correct.  Play up the fact that 75% of the league is American and most ex-NFL/NCAA.  Play up the fact we start the season way earlier... football fanatics will be dying by June to see some new football.  Give it to them.  Play up the wider/longer field, more players, more interesting kicking game (but don't dis the NFL, even when it is true).  Point out how no CFL'er has ever "taken a knee" to any anthem.  And play up how we don't fix games so the Patriots always win!  Cheesy

It just needs a (probably US) backer, some money, and some luck.  Chevelle says he's loaded, why not Chevelle?  I see a great new career ahead for you!  Wink

P.S. Play up Andre Proulx!  On second thought...
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theaardvark
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« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2018, 01:55:49 PM »

Chevelle sees it.  He nailed it as good as any seasoned BB fan I've talked to at games.  Many NFL fans (even American ex-pats) mention "know all their names" as a key feature of the CFL.

I don't see how the CFL could fail to attract decent viewership in the US if it would just get heavily promoted (like ads on ESPN1 during NFL games).  You need to reach a tipping point.  Marketing has to be correct.  Play up the fact that 75% of the league is American and most ex-NFL/NCAA.  Play up the fact we start the season way earlier... football fanatics will be dying by June to see some new football.  Give it to them.  Play up the wider/longer field, more players, more interesting kicking game (but don't dis the NFL, even when it is true).  Point out how no CFL'er has ever "taken a knee" to any anthem.  And play up how we don't fix games so the Patriots always win!  Cheesy

It just needs a (probably US) backer, some money, and some luck.  Chevelle says he's loaded, why not Chevelle?  I see a great new career ahead for you!  Wink

P.S. Play up Andre Proulx!  On second thought...


OK, so you want to get the red blooded, flag waving, southern states American who is upset with the players that won't stand for the national anthem to watch a CANADIAN football league?  Watch his good old boys that have left the country get paid more than a beaver loving Canadian, just because he was born on the wrong side of the border?  And only half the team can be American content?

We don't play by the same rules, or have the same field.  Its not as bad as the difference between cricket and baseball, but it is different enough that a staunch NCAA/NFL fan isn't going to embrace it. 

Not sure if I've pointed out enough holes in this logic, but I can go on.

We have a very old, very stable league.  Its finally working very well, and the little issues that have .04% of the CFLPA members upset right now will get ironed out in the next CBA, I have no doubt.

Raising the salary cap does absolutely nothing good for the league.  It will make expansion to the Maritimes impossible, it will jeopardize the fragile economy of the CFL, and might even render some of the current teams insolvent. 

Will raising the cap attract more US players?  Maybe a handful, but anyone willing to come play for $65K will still come for $56k, and anyone who needs $100k+ to play isn't going to sit on a couch if yoiu knock his salary from $240k to $165k (see Dressler/Chick/Durant etc)

Want to spend more money and improve the game?  Add some cash to the ref budget.  Add in some better TV infrastructure so the broadcasters get better shots.  Add in some technology, chips in the ball, in the namebars, in the helmets.  Make the game safer by improving helmet tech and more/better sideline spotters / medical staff.

The cap is the last place to invest right now to make the game better.

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« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2018, 04:25:12 PM »

OK, so you want to get the red blooded, flag waving, southern states American who is upset with the players that won't stand for the national anthem to watch a CANADIAN football league?  Watch his good old boys that have left the country get paid more than a beaver loving Canadian, just because he was born on the wrong side of the border?  And only half the team can be American content?

We don't play by the same rules, or have the same field.  Its not as bad as the difference between cricket and baseball, but it is different enough that a staunch NCAA/NFL fan isn't going to embrace it. 

Not sure if I've pointed out enough holes in this logic, but I can go on.

We have a very old, very stable league.  Its finally working very well, and the little issues that have .04% of the CFLPA members upset right now will get ironed out in the next CBA, I have no doubt.

Raising the salary cap does absolutely nothing good for the league.  It will make expansion to the Maritimes impossible, it will jeopardize the fragile economy of the CFL, and might even render some of the current teams insolvent. 

Will raising the cap attract more US players?  Maybe a handful, but anyone willing to come play for $65K will still come for $56k, and anyone who needs $100k+ to play isn't going to sit on a couch if yoiu knock his salary from $240k to $165k (see Dressler/Chick/Durant etc)

Want to spend more money and improve the game?  Add some cash to the ref budget.  Add in some better TV infrastructure so the broadcasters get better shots.  Add in some technology, chips in the ball, in the namebars, in the helmets.  Make the game safer by improving helmet tech and more/better sideline spotters / medical staff.

The cap is the last place to invest right now to make the game better.



I seriously have no clue where you come up with half of the stuff you do... but I guess that's just you...

I ask that we don't make this about standing for the flag, that has nothing to due with this thread and I respectfully ask that we 'let it go' as this is not the right place for that type of conversation. I thank you in advance for doing so... honestly, it's pretty much a non issue any way...

But my first point being, I am an American and I embrace the CFL game fully and in case you haven't noticed, I haven't advocated for a single change of any kind. Quite the opposite, I want it to stay exactly as it is. It's a great game, I'm able to see that any change that is there is needed because they all flow collectively to make a different game, yet still an incredible game. The CFL game doesn't come off as a game that was changed for change sake, rather, an interpretation of how someone else thought the game should be played with their own subtle changes through out. Its a masterful game that stands alone, I love it...

Plus, I think that if there was more money and it was more visible, more Canadians may become fans and surely more would be interested in being players. I'm about saving a game, saving tradition, making it more stable for ownership. If all players could be paid in that $200K-$600K range it would a) be more than an NFL base salary, b) allow players to decide to stay and play for a team they love because it would become less about how much they are paid and as much about the love of the team and their team mates, and c) allow us fans to keep players on our team for longer than a year.  I honestly believe it could do such.

I think I'm representative of the common NFL fan. Maybe a little more passionate about football than some but seriously less than others. I think there are a lot of people like me down here that would embrace the game fully, especially given the fact that the seasons are for the most part different. But yes, that is one thing I would want to change just a little, start a little earlier, and end a little earlier, but not much, 2 or 3 weeks. Because NFL fans will continue to follow the CFL into the NFL season if it is mostly just wrapping up the end of the season. But I think viewership may tail a little if it continues to go deep into November because there are already options. But, if a fan has become commited to the the league from the start of the season they will see it through. The best part is that the CFL has done a great job in not scheduling games up against the NFL schedule and will allow us die hards to continue to follow all 3 leagues.

TecnoGenius, thank you for the kind words and recognizing that I am truly a fan, not just a flash in the pan passing through. I believe it could work, honestly, and if I could get a job, or even just an audience, at the CFL I would love to share my passion and ideas. But I doubt that it's ground breaking or innovative. But I do think it's about timing, and now seems to be the right time. And I do have money, lol, but not the kind to be a team owner, not for longer than a year anyway... but I can be a hell of a cheerleader....

As I said, I'm not looking to convert this to an American game, quite the opposite, it should be promoted as a Canadian game, not an alternative per se though. And keep the current rules, ratio, field size, etc., no need to apologize for anything, it's a great game and a great product. May have to tweak the ratio a bit early on, only because of supply and demand, maybe be a little fluid, but, as more Canadians are available they should always be working towards the Canadian majority like today, 21/20 split.
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« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2018, 04:33:09 PM »

I don't know if you've ever visited any sports streaming sites on the Web but they are sponsored almost exclusively by on-line gambling and there are hundreds of events every day that can be streamed and bet on worldwide, tapping into the Asian market and their population of billions.  I'm not sure the people that frequent these sites care a hoot about what event is being shown, they're focus is on the outcome and the bets they place.  If the CFL and their broadcaster could profit from this extended viewership in any way it could possibly make gate revenue virtually irrelevant in the near future.

oh I know, those are the types that would bet on cockroaches if that was the only thing available to bet on as well. But I believe that there is still a large number of people that partake in fanatsy football as a supplemental enjoyment to either the betting or the game that still watch the game. But I agree, those that hang out of the betting sites are not the core fan we'd be looking to engage or bring on board. They're already here and are doing nothing for the game now. But like I said, there are a lot of people that play fantasy football as a way to show their intelligence or superiority over their friends with their knowledge of the game, those we could attract.

But, the largest group to hit, are the football fans, the ones that believe there are 2 seasons, a) football season, and b) waiting for football season... We give them something to put in item 'b'... that's what did it for me... made it easy to be a fan without giving up anything... it's easier to commit to and be patient enough to learn to enjoy the game if I don't have to sacrifice one for the other, if you know what I mean...  by the time the NFL and NCAA seasons rolled around I was hooked already...
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« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2018, 10:45:33 PM »

I seriously have no clue where you come up with half of the stuff you do... but I guess that's just you...

I ask that we don't make this about standing for the flag, that has nothing to due with this thread and I respectfully ask that we 'let it go' as this is not the right place for that type of conversation. I thank you in advance for doing so... honestly, it's pretty much a non issue any way...

But my first point being, I am an American and I embrace the CFL game fully and in case you haven't noticed, I haven't advocated for a single change of any kind. Quite the opposite, I want it to stay exactly as it is. It's a great game, I'm able to see that any change that is there is needed because they all flow collectively to make a different game, yet still an incredible game. The CFL game doesn't come off as a game that was changed for change sake, rather, an interpretation of how someone else thought the game should be played with their own subtle changes through out. Its a masterful game that stands alone, I love it...

Plus, I think that if there was more money and it was more visible, more Canadians may become fans and surely more would be interested in being players. I'm about saving a game, saving tradition, making it more stable for ownership. If all players could be paid in that $200K-$600K range it would a) be more than an NFL base salary, b) allow players to decide to stay and play for a team they love because it would become less about how much they are paid and as much about the love of the team and their team mates, and c) allow us fans to keep players on our team for longer than a year.  I honestly believe it could do such.

I think I'm representative of the common NFL fan. Maybe a little more passionate about football than some but seriously less than others. I think there are a lot of people like me down here that would embrace the game fully, especially given the fact that the seasons are for the most part different. But yes, that is one thing I would want to change just a little, start a little earlier, and end a little earlier, but not much, 2 or 3 weeks. Because NFL fans will continue to follow the CFL into the NFL season if it is mostly just wrapping up the end of the season. But I think viewership may tail a little if it continues to go deep into November because there are already options. But, if a fan has become commited to the the league from the start of the season they will see it through. The best part is that the CFL has done a great job in not scheduling games up against the NFL schedule and will allow us die hards to continue to follow all 3 leagues.

TecnoGenius, thank you for the kind words and recognizing that I am truly a fan, not just a flash in the pan passing through. I believe it could work, honestly, and if I could get a job, or even just an audience, at the CFL I would love to share my passion and ideas. But I doubt that it's ground breaking or innovative. But I do think it's about timing, and now seems to be the right time. And I do have money, lol, but not the kind to be a team owner, not for longer than a year anyway... but I can be a hell of a cheerleader....

As I said, I'm not looking to convert this to an American game, quite the opposite, it should be promoted as a Canadian game, not an alternative per se though. And keep the current rules, ratio, field size, etc., no need to apologize for anything, it's a great game and a great product. May have to tweak the ratio a bit early on, only because of supply and demand, maybe be a little fluid, but, as more Canadians are available they should always be working towards the Canadian majority like today, 21/20 split.

Paying players more doesn't solve any "problems".  The CFL is a landing spot for players that cannot break into the NFL but are not ready to quit football.  Pretty much the same group of players will play for $56k min salary that you'd attract for $150k min salary. 

The nice thing about a $5.x million SMS is that everyone is playing with the same amount of money, so it works.  An expansion team can get up to speed quick, a team that was 2-16 can make the playoffs the next year.  Teams need to spend judiciously, so sometimes teams that make bad/untradeable contracts cut top end players.

Financial stability of the league is important for its longevity.  No one, players or owners, are getting rich.  And entertainment $ are getting harder to get.  A million channels vying for eyeballs. 

The CFL is a gate driven league, and the fans won't pay five times the ticket price so that teams can pay a DE a million bucks.  And the fact that some of the players actually take jobs in the community in the offseasons makes them a lot more relatable. 

We're not going to attract a significant number disaffected NFL fans, let alone get them to pay money to see the league.  We're very happy that you've found our secret league and are enjoying it, and we welcome converts for sure.  But no team would ever consider that a revenue stream. 



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« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2018, 11:44:59 PM »

I'm not even thinking about the money.  It's like Chevelle says, just promote it like mad in the USA and get a decent viewership.  If that nets more TV money and there's more sloshing around the CFL piggy banks, that's gravy.  It can't hurt the league, it can only help it.  Heck, why not take any extra money and put in place a far better long-term disability / health plan?  Why not allow bigger minimum pay increases each year?  Why not allow slightly bigger roster sizes?

I personally know a few middle-America good 'ol boys and they have grown to love the CFL.  Everyone loves Canadians.  Americans wouldn't not watch it just because it was Canadian.  The harder thing to overcome is the "bush-league", "JV" league condescension most of them likely feel.  Actually watching some games should help.  It's a good product.
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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2018, 03:03:29 AM »

I'm not even thinking about the money.  It's like Chevelle says, just promote it like mad in the USA and get a decent viewership.  If that nets more TV money and there's more sloshing around the CFL piggy banks, that's gravy.  It can't hurt the league, it can only help it.  Heck, why not take any extra money and put in place a far better long-term disability / health plan?  Why not allow bigger minimum pay increases each year?  Why not allow slightly bigger roster sizes?

I personally know a few middle-America good 'ol boys and they have grown to love the CFL.  Everyone loves Canadians.  Americans wouldn't not watch it just because it was Canadian.  The harder thing to overcome is the "bush-league", "JV" league condescension most of them likely feel.  Actually watching some games should help.  It's a good product.


But increasing the cap doesn't help with any of that.  In fact, it hurts it, because it reduces the money available for promotion and making the actual game better.  And might even put some teams in the red far enough to fold.

If I thought that the game would improve by paying the players more, sure.  Raise the cap.  But it isn't going to make it any better.  It will be the same players, making more money, and still wanting more.  I can't see *any* upside to increasing the cap.  Would Bilukidi or Mulumba have changed their minds if the cap allowed them to be paid $200k instead of $170k?  Pretty sure it doesn't change anything there. 

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« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2018, 11:41:16 AM »

In a league where only 1 or 2 teams actually show a profit year to year the answer is raise the salaries? Not sure that would be my approach.
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« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2018, 05:13:35 PM »

In a league where only 1 or 2 teams actually show a profit year to year the answer is raise the salaries? Not sure that would be my approach.

from what I've read it more like there are 1 or 2 teams that are losing money as of now... but none the less you are correct, whether it's 1 or 9 teams currently losing money. You can't raise the SMS under those conditions. While teams like the Bombers could absorb an SMS based upon their income statement, you could lose 2 teams completely.

However, the TSN deal is set to expire at the end of 2018 making this a perfect time to reevaluate all options that may be out there. Lets face it, if the XFL is indeed moving forward in 2020 one would have to expect that they are planning on teaming with someone for viewing rights. If successful that could be trouble moving forward unless we beat them to it now, or, unless the CFL continues to have no real interest in expanding viewership south.

I see the CFL of today to be a lot like the NASCAR sport of the early 90's. A sport with a widely regional market and interest, but a good product on the upswing as the fans that it did have are loyal and the sport was considered accessible to the average fan, basically a blue collar, working mans sport, much like the CFL. They went from have only 1 or 2 races that were shown in their entirety and the balance of races only given 15 to 30 minutes of "highlights" on Wide World of Sports to having every race nationally televised, as well as 100's of related programming being shown today, despite have a 5 year declining viewership. Today their current contract is worth $8.8 BILLION thru 2024.

When you look around at other sports in the national landscape you see the NHL has a $2B contract ending in 2021, MLB has a $12.4B thru 2021, NBA $24B thru 2028, and the NFL giant has a whopping $39.8 BILLION 8 year deal ending in 2022. Even Fox gave the World Cup $200M for one year to show the World Cup. While I'll conceede the fact that the CFL may not be considered as elite, that perception could be changed. One would be foolish to believe that they could secure that type of money today, but there is money out there none the less and any they could get today is more than they had yesterday.

Under the current CFL contract with TSN, they are paid $40M per year on a contract that ends in 2018. However, this contract is primarily for Canadian viewing rights and allowing ESPN to stream games online here as well as primarily playoff games being on their national network. There's opportunity here and now. To me it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe that they, the CFL, couldn't sell USA viewing rights for the same $40M/per year, especially to a network that lost on of the previous pro sport contracts. It seems that everyone is continuously looking for professional sports to add to their line up. And given the fact that in recent years, networks like CBS and NBC have added their own sports only channels, they are starving for programming.

Additional money not only props up the league financially, making more stable to say the least, but, it could also do away with 1 year contracts. Maybe even get away from the notion that the CFL exists primarily as a proving ground for an NFL wanna be.  With an adequate base salary the CFL again can become an alternative option for those pursuing a professional football career, attracting those willing to play for less instead of being on an NFL practice roster and seeing no action. You'd see players gladly enter into 2, 3 and maybe even 4 year contracts and end this merry go round of player movement for $5K more a year.

A dream, maybe, but I don't see the harm in looking into it or asking for it...
 
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« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2018, 05:15:12 PM »

CFL/TSN deal expires at the end of 2021, not 2018.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2018, 05:22:52 PM »

CFL/TSN deal expires at the end of 2021, not 2018.

thx for the correction, gbill...

evidently my Google let me down then, as one of the first to pop up on my search indicated the current contract is set to expire at the end of 2018. But none the less, as I stated above, the current contract is primarily for Canadian TV rights, the league could still pursue something south I would believe...
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« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2018, 05:27:44 PM »

I'm not even thinking about the money.  It's like Chevelle says, just promote it like mad in the USA and get a decent viewership.  If that nets more TV money and there's more sloshing around the CFL piggy banks, that's gravy.  It can't hurt the league, it can only help it.  Heck, why not take any extra money and put in place a far better long-term disability / health plan?  Why not allow bigger minimum pay increases each year?  Why not allow slightly bigger roster sizes?

I personally know a few middle-America good 'ol boys and they have grown to love the CFL.  Everyone loves Canadians.  Americans wouldn't not watch it just because it was Canadian.  The harder thing to overcome is the "bush-league", "JV" league condescension most of them likely feel.  Actually watching some games should help.  It's a good product.


I never considered the CFL 'bush league', I just never considered it period. It wasn't on my radar at all. I wasn't really sure what to expect before watching my first game. But, I will say, by watching just one game an average football fan will be able to following at least 90% of whats happening. I say only 90% because sometimes it takes a game or two before you get a chance to see all of the variables. Especially from the kicking aspect. But I believe that it wouldn't be difficult at all to pull in several million faithful viewers for the game, especially when it starts in June and there is no other football on. By August you have them hooked!
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« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2018, 05:33:22 PM »

thx for the correction, gbill...

evidently my Google let me down then, as one of the first to pop up on my search indicated the current contract is set to expire at the end of 2018. But none the less, as I stated above, the current contract is primarily for Canadian TV rights, the league could still pursue something south I would believe...
No problem. It was till 2018, but was then extended to 2021.
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« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2018, 05:54:55 PM »

from what I've read it more like there are 1 or 2 teams that are losing money as of now... but none the less you are correct, whether it's 1 or 9 teams currently losing money. You can't raise the SMS under those conditions. While teams like the Bombers could absorb an SMS based upon their income statement, you could lose 2 teams completely.

However, the TSN deal is set to expire at the end of 2018 making this a perfect time to reevaluate all options that may be out there. Lets face it, if the XFL is indeed moving forward in 2020 one would have to expect that they are planning on teaming with someone for viewing rights. If successful that could be trouble moving forward unless we beat them to it now, or, unless the CFL continues to have no real interest in expanding viewership south.

I see the CFL of today to be a lot like the NASCAR sport of the early 90's. A sport with a widely regional market and interest, but a good product on the upswing as the fans that it did have are loyal and the sport was considered accessible to the average fan, basically a blue collar, working mans sport, much like the CFL. They went from have only 1 or 2 races that were shown in their entirety and the balance of races only given 15 to 30 minutes of "highlights" on Wide World of Sports to having every race nationally televised, as well as 100's of related programming being shown today, despite have a 5 year declining viewership. Today their current contract is worth $8.8 BILLION thru 2024.

When you look around at other sports in the national landscape you see the NHL has a $2B contract ending in 2021, MLB has a $12.4B thru 2021, NBA $24B thru 2028, and the NFL giant has a whopping $39.8 BILLION 8 year deal ending in 2022. Even Fox gave the World Cup $200M for one year to show the World Cup. While I'll conceede the fact that the CFL may not be considered as elite, that perception could be changed. One would be foolish to believe that they could secure that type of money today, but there is money out there none the less and any they could get today is more than they had yesterday.

Under the current CFL contract with TSN, they are paid $40M per year on a contract that ends in 2018. However, this contract is primarily for Canadian viewing rights and allowing ESPN to stream games online here as well as primarily playoff games being on their national network. There's opportunity here and now. To me it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe that they, the CFL, couldn't sell USA viewing rights for the same $40M/per year, especially to a network that lost on of the previous pro sport contracts. It seems that everyone is continuously looking for professional sports to add to their line up. And given the fact that in recent years, networks like CBS and NBC have added their own sports only channels, they are starving for programming.

Additional money not only props up the league financially, making more stable to say the least, but, it could also do away with 1 year contracts. Maybe even get away from the notion that the CFL exists primarily as a proving ground for an NFL wanna be.  With an adequate base salary the CFL again can become an alternative option for those pursuing a professional football career, attracting those willing to play for less instead of being on an NFL practice roster and seeing no action. You'd see players gladly enter into 2, 3 and maybe even 4 year contracts and end this merry go round of player movement for $5K more a year.

A dream, maybe, but I don't see the harm in looking into it or asking for it...
 

There are no teams that can absorb an increase to the SMS of more than a couple hundred thousand a year. While 5 of 9 teams listed profits from 2015, most were profits less than 200k. The other 4 teams lost money. In fact, in 2015 the Bombers reported profits would have been a multi hundreds of thousands loss if not for the fact of the Grey Cup revenue. Every year EVERY team struggles to come out a few dollars in the black. Even our most financially successful franchise has shown a net multi million dollar loss over the last 3 years aggregate. There simply is no money. This is not a league getting rich off the dreams of kids from the US. It's a league offering the best wage it can while providing a 2nd chance for forgotten about football players. If the starting wage is too low, don't come here....there are others willing to play for that.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2018, 06:20:36 PM »

There are no teams that can absorb an increase to the SMS of more than a couple hundred thousand a year. While 5 of 9 teams listed profits from 2015, most were profits less than 200k. The other 4 teams lost money. In fact, in 2015 the Bombers reported profits would have been a multi hundreds of thousands loss if not for the fact of the Grey Cup revenue. Every year EVERY team struggles to come out a few dollars in the black. Even our most financially successful franchise has shown a net multi million dollar loss over the last 3 years aggregate. There simply is no money. This is not a league getting rich off the dreams of kids from the US. It's a league offering the best wage it can while providing a 2nd chance for forgotten about football players. If the starting wage is too low, don't come here....there are others willing to play for that.

you're missing my point entirely... I'm not for a second suggesting that they raise the cap under current circumstances, not at all. Hence, trying to sell additional viewing rights in order to garner more money for the teams to first, make each team more stable and financially viable, and then sprinkle a little love on the players. However, I'm a smart enough person to know that if that money isn't there, it isn't there. But on the other hand, I'm also smart enough to know that if you don't do something different, nothing changes....

but also, don't be fooled, SMS cap represents only 1/6th of the revenue generated by the team. there doesn't seem to be a problem other areas and because of teams being privately owned there is no requirement to show where the money goes. Also, for the publicly owned teams, sure, they release financials but good luck pin pointing how that is spent as well. Most entities strive to show a loss if for no other reason than tax liability, as an accountant by trade I know this to be true...
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« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2018, 07:40:04 PM »

you're missing my point entirely... I'm not for a second suggesting that they raise the cap under current circumstances, not at all. Hence, trying to sell additional viewing rights in order to garner more money for the teams to first, make each team more stable and financially viable, and then sprinkle a little love on the players. However, I'm a smart enough person to know that if that money isn't there, it isn't there. But on the other hand, I'm also smart enough to know that if you don't do something different, nothing changes....

but also, don't be fooled, SMS cap represents only 1/6th of the revenue generated by the team. there doesn't seem to be a problem other areas and because of teams being privately owned there is no requirement to show where the money goes. Also, for the publicly owned teams, sure, they release financials but good luck pin pointing how that is spent as well. Most entities strive to show a loss if for no other reason than tax liability, as an accountant by trade I know this to be true...

Who were yo an accountant for, Donald Trump?  You can't "show" a loss if you didn't lose money.  You need receipts, legit expenses, appropriate writedowns that will survive and audit.  Our Bombers are a not for profit organization, they have to spend any overage, there is no benefit to making money for them. 

Saying a team spends 1/6th of its revenue on players, I'm guessing you're making a point about some leagues having a 50/50 player/team split in revenues.  That's easy when the revenue is $150 mil, it gives you $75 mil to run the team's facility / overheads.  When its $30 mil, and you only pay the players $5mil, you only have $25 mil left to cover very similar costs. 

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« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2018, 07:51:01 PM »

Who were yo an accountant for, Donald Trump?  You can't "show" a loss if you didn't lose money.  You need receipts, legit expenses, appropriate writedowns that will survive and audit.  Our Bombers are a not for profit organization, they have to spend any overage, there is no benefit to making money for them. 

Saying a team spends 1/6th of its revenue on players, I'm guessing you're making a point about some leagues having a 50/50 player/team split in revenues.  That's easy when the revenue is $150 mil, it gives you $75 mil to run the team's facility / overheads.  When its $30 mil, and you only pay the players $5mil, you only have $25 mil left to cover very similar costs. 



actually you can, lol... in fact, the US government only allows you to show a business loss for 7 consecutive years before they 'shut you off', so to speak...

but my resume includes starting a business after securing my guaranteed retirement commencing at 49, to growing that business to a point that after 4 short years I was able to sell that debt free business for 8 figures... and that's eight figures to the left of the decimal point...  how about you?
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2018, 09:00:35 PM »

actually you can, lol... in fact, the US government only allows you to show a business loss for 7 consecutive years before they 'shut you off', so to speak...

but my resume includes starting a business after securing my guaranteed retirement commencing at 49, to growing that business to a point that after 4 short years I was able to sell that debt free business for 8 figures... and that's eight figures to the left of the decimal point...  how about you?

As I mentioned in the other thread, my resume includes 6 years of my youth as a cook at a KFC (here, "cook" is used loosely).

Beat that.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2018, 09:39:04 PM »

As I mentioned in the other thread, my resume includes 6 years of my youth as a cook at a KFC (here, "cook" is used loosely).

Beat that.

spent 1 year manually operating bowling machines by hand? I'd sit on top of the machine and pull a lever to drop the gate, another to pick up the standing pins, another to sweep..... rinse and repeat, lol... talk about a job!  13 years old...
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2018, 10:43:14 PM »

spent 1 year manually operating bowling machines by hand? I'd sit on top of the machine and pull a lever to drop the gate, another to pick up the standing pins, another to sweep..... rinse and repeat, lol... talk about a job!  13 years old...

 Cheesy Cheesy that's awesome.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2018, 10:44:47 PM »

spent 1 year manually operating bowling machines by hand? I'd sit on top of the machine and pull a lever to drop the gate, another to pick up the standing pins, another to sweep..... rinse and repeat, lol... talk about a job!  13 years old...

lol ya got me
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theaardvark
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« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2018, 12:48:38 AM »

actually you can, lol... in fact, the US government only allows you to show a business loss for 7 consecutive years before they 'shut you off', so to speak...

but my resume includes starting a business after securing my guaranteed retirement commencing at 49, to growing that business to a point that after 4 short years I was able to sell that debt free business for 8 figures... and that's eight figures to the left of the decimal point...  how about you?

You should turn that sale into an investment, say... the BC Lions.  You can buy them for 8 figures...

As I mentioned in the other thread, my resume includes 6 years of my youth as a cook at a KFC (here, "cook" is used loosely).

Beat that.

I've been fired by McDonalds twice...  its not hard to get fired, but to get fired twice, you have to be hired back...  and that is tough. 

I have a friend who worked fast food in High School, became a manager when he graduated, worked his way up to regional supervisor, and now owns 3 franchise stores.  So, yes, for someone that wants to make something of their lives, fast food isn't always a dead end job, and its a lot better than welfare and feeling sorry for yourself.  Its honest work.  Nothing wrong with that.

And yes, many players in the CFL, Arena League, XFL end up working menial jobs once their football career is over.  Some use their college education to get a better job.  Unfortunately, for some, they never see a job that pays $54k/year again. 
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GCn18
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« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2018, 05:40:11 AM »

I worked a charity day at a McDonalds one time. It's crazy in there and those people work very hard. I came out of there with a whole new level of respect for those people.
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« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2018, 11:43:16 AM »


I've been fired by McDonalds twice...  its not hard to get fired, but to get fired twice, you have to be hired back...  and that is tough. 



Aards, you're right, you have to be some kind of special to be fired from McDonalds not once, but twice... I've never been fired, but I have to imagine that you have to dig down pretty deep to go back to a place that fired you and ask to be given a job again, lol...  did your mom make you or something?
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« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2018, 01:44:05 PM »

Aards, you're right, you have to be some kind of special to be fired from McDonalds not once, but twice... I've never been fired, but I have to imagine that you have to dig down pretty deep to go back to a place that fired you and ask to be given a job again, lol...  did your mom make you or something?

I've been fired a lot, and I've never been unemployed. I've never been fired for an inability to do a job, far from it.  I get fired because I become bored.  And no, my Mom didn't make me go back, they approached me because they needed someone with my skillset, I came fully trained.  Yes, I said skillset, I was in first year university, and my old boss had his entire overnight maintenance crew quit.  I walked in to get a burger (before drivethru's) and he spotted me and offered me the job on the spot, at a premium wage.  I took their money for about six months, got bored and let them encourage me to my next work experience.

I've been fired probably a dozen times.  Proves I'm no quitter. Wink

For 17 years, I've run a small business, serving my customers and community, and creating jobs for a handful of people.  Not getting rich, keeping a roof over my family's head, but doing something I am passionate about.  Probably keep doing it until I'm 70, and hopefully there is still a social safety net in CPP operating, because I will probably need it.  I'm proud of the work I do, and sleep very well at night.
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« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2018, 03:19:58 PM »

I've been fired a lot, and I've never been unemployed. I've never been fired for an inability to do a job, far from it.  I get fired because I become bored.  And no, my Mom didn't make me go back, they approached me because they needed someone with my skillset, I came fully trained.  Yes, I said skillset, I was in first year university, and my old boss had his entire overnight maintenance crew quit.  I walked in to get a burger (before drivethru's) and he spotted me and offered me the job on the spot, at a premium wage.  I took their money for about six months, got bored and let them encourage me to my next work experience.

I've been fired probably a dozen times.  Proves I'm no quitter. Wink

For 17 years, I've run a small business, serving my customers and community, and creating jobs for a handful of people.  Not getting rich, keeping a roof over my family's head, but doing something I am passionate about.  Probably keep doing it until I'm 70, and hopefully there is still a social safety net in CPP operating, because I will probably need it.  I'm proud of the work I do, and sleep very well at night.

I completely understand where you are coming from. We are similar in the fact that I could never be content with just sitting at work doing nothing, though for most state workers you would have thought that it was included in their job responsibilities. I started my career directly out of high school, working in the mail room, and worked my way up to a very responsible administrative position within the department. Once I had mastered the responsibilities of my last position I began looking for something to keep me busy. Over the course of the next 18 years I created and implemented 9 significant 'industry firsts' for the corrections industry, all of which are now being done in every corrections system at the state and federal level.  Knowing I was going to retire early, I keep a few ideas in my back pocket, so to speak. Once retired I created my company, was awarded multiple copyrights and patents related to the business I started, which too was an industry first, and went to work.  I was approached after year 3 to see if I would be interested in selling, primarily because it was one of kind and I owned the intellectual properties tied to it. They made it real easy for me to say yes, and the rest is history, as they say...

I bet you do sleep good at night, Aards, as you should... good on you, my friend....
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jeremy q public
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« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2018, 03:57:47 PM »

The big question that nobody in this thread is asking is: why?

WHY does the SMS need to be raised? What problem does that fix? There is no other league that is currently competing with the CFL for our players. We pay better than any other non-NFL league and have no hope of competing with the NFL. So how would the CFL product improve by raising salaries, and forcing ticket prices up? The only problem that a higher SMS might fix is players retiring early to pursue other careers. But I can only think of two players who have done that, and I doubt either of them would?ve been back for an extra $20k or even $50k a year.

So it?s a non-issue, and messing with it only creates further issues. Attendance is down enough, we don?t need to alienate fans by jacking up prices. I have no issue with expanding tv coverage into the US if we can. That would generate additional revenues, and I?m sure the CFLPA would make a case for sharing the wealth, and that?s legit. But don?t put the cart before the horse. The additional revenue has to come first.
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the paw
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« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2018, 04:15:58 PM »

The big question that nobody in this thread is asking is: why?

WHY does the SMS need to be raised? What problem does that fix? There is no other league that is currently competing with the CFL for our players. We pay better than any other non-NFL league and have no hope of competing with the NFL. So how would the CFL product improve by raising salaries, and forcing ticket prices up? The only problem that a higher SMS might fix is players retiring early to pursue other careers. But I can only think of two players who have done that, and I doubt either of them would?ve been back for an extra $20k or even $50k a year.

So it?s a non-issue, and messing with it only creates further issues. Attendance is down enough, we don?t need to alienate fans by jacking up prices. I have no issue with expanding tv coverage into the US if we can. That would generate additional revenues, and I?m sure the CFLPA would make a case for sharing the wealth, and that?s legit. But don?t put the cart before the horse. The additional revenue has to come first.

The reasons for raising the salary cap are (a) moral and (b) related to attracting and retaining a higher caliber of player. 

The economics suggest that unless there is a significant growth in revenue from a new stream, the possible cap growth is not likely going to be large enough to significantly impact (b).  I don't think substantial increases in ticket prices are even on the table, and haven't really been suggested in this thread. 

So that leaves us with the notion that we should compensate the lower end of the salary spectrum a bit better to at least symbolically acknowledge how these guys beat themselves up for our entertainment.  Alternatives to simply increasing the salary cap would be to use revenue gains to improve pensions and/or provide better health care for injured players.  Neither of those would necessarily break the bank. 

The other issue is whether in fact the revenues have to come first, given the CBA is a multi-year agreement.  I think it would be possible to tie salary cap increases to growth in revenue on a contingent formula.  In other words make the agreement that if and when revenues grow, this proportion will be dedicated to player compensation.  If I was bargaining for the CFLPA, that would be my strategy. 
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« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2018, 05:01:30 PM »

The reasons for raising the salary cap are (a) moral and (b) related to attracting and retaining a higher caliber of player. 

The economics suggest that unless there is a significant growth in revenue from a new stream, the possible cap growth is not likely going to be large enough to significantly impact (b).  I don't think substantial increases in ticket prices are even on the table, and haven't really been suggested in this thread. 

So that leaves us with the notion that we should compensate the lower end of the salary spectrum a bit better to at least symbolically acknowledge how these guys beat themselves up for our entertainment.  Alternatives to simply increasing the salary cap would be to use revenue gains to improve pensions and/or provide better health care for injured players.  Neither of those would necessarily break the bank. 

The other issue is whether in fact the revenues have to come first, given the CBA is a multi-year agreement.  I think it would be possible to tie salary cap increases to growth in revenue on a contingent formula.  In other words make the agreement that if and when revenues grow, this proportion will be dedicated to player compensation.  If I was bargaining for the CFLPA, that would be my strategy. 

I couldn't have said it better myself...
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2018, 05:36:49 PM »

The reasons for raising the salary cap are (a) moral and (b) related to attracting and retaining a higher caliber of player. 

The economics suggest that unless there is a significant growth in revenue from a new stream, the possible cap growth is not likely going to be large enough to significantly impact (b).  I don't think substantial increases in ticket prices are even on the table, and haven't really been suggested in this thread. 

So that leaves us with the notion that we should compensate the lower end of the salary spectrum a bit better to at least symbolically acknowledge how these guys beat themselves up for our entertainment.  Alternatives to simply increasing the salary cap would be to use revenue gains to improve pensions and/or provide better health care for injured players.  Neither of those would necessarily break the bank. 

The other issue is whether in fact the revenues have to come first, given the CBA is a multi-year agreement.  I think it would be possible to tie salary cap increases to growth in revenue on a contingent formula.  In other words make the agreement that if and when revenues grow, this proportion will be dedicated to player compensation.  If I was bargaining for the CFLPA, that would be my strategy. 

I dispute your point B, raising the salary cap by 5-10% is not going to change the caliber of players the CFL recruits.  They already have access to the best football players who haven't yet landed an NFL gig who wish to continue playing pro football, of which there is more supply than demand. 

To make salaries more equitable I would put a cap on QB salaries at $300,000-$325,000 and move most of the savings to the bottom tier with a league enforced minimum contract, "they would still have access to the best QB's who haven't yet landed an NFL gig who wish to continue playing pro football".   
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2018, 05:50:31 PM »

I dispute your point B, raising the salary cap by 5-10% is not going to change the caliber of players the CFL recruits.  They already have access to the best football players who haven't yet landed an NFL gig who wish to continue playing pro football, of which there is more supply than demand. 

To make salaries more equitable I would put a cap on QB salaries at $300,000-$325,000 and move most of the savings to the bottom tier with a league enforced minimum contract, "they would still have access to the best QB's who haven't yet landed an NFL gig who wish to continue playing pro football".   

you're right, maybe 'better' isn't the appropriate word... I see it as attracting players that are actually interested in making the CFL a career for players that want to be here as opposed to a pit stop to get back to the NFL. Being able to once again enter into multi year contracts will create stability for both the teams and the players. It will become obvious that those seeking 1 year deals, generally, are those that are not interested in hanging around.   To attract those type of players I think a salary of $150K to $200K on the low end and up to $600K on the top end would do that... fair compensation with room to grow yet enough to be viewed as a true alternative to the NFL...
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« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2018, 06:26:22 PM »

I dispute your point B, raising the salary cap by 5-10% is not going to change the caliber of players the CFL recruits.  They already have access to the best football players who haven't yet landed an NFL gig who wish to continue playing pro football, of which there is more supply than demand. 

To make salaries more equitable I would put a cap on QB salaries at $300,000-$325,000 and move most of the savings to the bottom tier with a league enforced minimum contract, "they would still have access to the best QB's who haven't yet landed an NFL gig who wish to continue playing pro football".   

You are not disputing my point B, you are actually agreeing with it.  If you read the next bit, I state that a small SMS increase really isn't going to affect retention.

A larger cap increase might impact retention, because there are a certain number of individuals who are prepared to play in the NFL, but retire when faced with CFL compensation.  Moe Petrus is an example of a high CFL draft pick from UConn who tried to catch on with an NFL team, couldn't and went into the family business. Andy Mulumba and Bilukidi are two more examples.   But a SMS increase large enough to move the needle for those guys isn't in the cards, at least not in the forseeable future. 
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2018, 06:41:13 PM »

you're right, maybe 'better' isn't the appropriate word... I see it as attracting players that are actually interested in making the CFL a career for players that want to be here as opposed to a pit stop to get back to the NFL. Being able to once again enter into multi year contracts will create stability for both the teams and the players. It will become obvious that those seeking 1 year deals, generally, are those that are not interested in hanging around.   To attract those type of players I think a salary of $150K to $200K on the low end and up to $600K on the top end would do that... fair compensation with room to grow yet enough to be viewed as a true alternative to the NFL...

The thing is maybe 5 CFL players per year catch on with the NFL, so while many players in the league may think they have a shot at the NFL and are playing CFL ball for that specific reason the reality is few ever make it.  There are plenty of vet players like Stan Bryant and Odell Willis that gave the NFL a shot early on in their careers and settle down to long productive CFL careers, these players are already in the league establishing long careers within the existing pay structure. 

The only way your salary model becomes viable is if they sign a substantial contract with a US broadcaster, as you have been suggesting.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2018, 06:58:12 PM »

The thing is maybe 5 CFL players per year catch on with the NFL, so while many players in the league may think they have a shot at the NFL and are playing CFL ball for that specific reason the reality is few ever make it.  There are plenty of vet players like Stan Bryant and Odell Willis that gave the NFL a shot early on in their careers and settle down to long productive CFL careers, these players are already in the league establishing long careers within the existing pay structure. 

The only way your salary model becomes viable is if they sign a substantial contract with a US broadcaster, as you have been suggesting.

right again, on both points... even though only a small handful of people actually make it back to the NFL, there many that THINK they have a shot and want to leave and try. Ultimately, as we have seen of late, unsets the apple cart so to speak...  and for a pay range as I suggest it would take a significant contract, however, it's a big pool of money down here... for example, NASCAR, is still getting more money on their latest contract even though they have lost 47% of it audience...  if you're going to dream, dream big!   Wink
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bomb squad
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« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2018, 11:14:29 PM »

It would be interesting to get some insight from a former CFL recruiter on how salary levels impacted their ability to recruit. My hunch is a significant number of talented players pass on the CFL and opt to establish their livelihood careers instead. The 20's are critical years for that. Right now it's questionable if the salaries compensate enough to attract those players.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2018, 11:23:52 PM »

It would be interesting to get some insight from a former CFL recruiter on how salary levels impacted their ability to recruit. My hunch is a significant number of talented players pass on the CFL and opt to establish their livelihood careers instead. The 20's are critical years for that. Right now it's questionable if the salaries compensate enough to attract those players.

There are players who's college/university degree will start them well above $54k, but not a lot that will compensate them the over $100k they might sign after their ELC.  Also, the opportunity to continue towards an NFL career and the $500k minimum it brings is pretty big too.

Sadly, a lot of CFL players/prospects wont ever see a $54k job after football.  For these players, the CFL is a chance to make what is for them "big money".  And there is no shortage of this genre of player. 

Sure, we wont attract a Bilukidi or Mulumba with a $100k offer, or a Brett Favre... but sometimes, an Ocho Cinqo will play here on an ELC just for the joy of the game.  Or a Duron Carter will forego NFL opportunities to be able work in a league that doesn't pee test for THC...

Raising the SMS or ELC 10%, or even 30% is not going to change the level of talent we attract.  And reducing QB slaries to max $350k will definately not help.  Hard enough getting a Manzeil up here, or a Freeman.  Freeman is here to try for at least landing a $500k CFL QB spot, if he can't rekindle NFL interests...  if his ceiling was $350k... decisions might be different.
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bomb squad
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« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2018, 11:33:05 PM »

There are players who's college/university degree will start them well above $54k, but not a lot that will compensate them the over $100k they might sign after their ELC.  Also, the opportunity to continue towards an NFL career and the $500k minimum it brings is pretty big too.

Sadly, a lot of CFL players/prospects wont ever see a $54k job after football.  For these players, the CFL is a chance to make what is for them "big money".  And there is no shortage of this genre of player. 

Sure, we wont attract a Bilukidi or Mulumba with a $100k offer, or a Brett Favre... but sometimes, an Ocho Cinqo will play here on an ELC just for the joy of the game.  Or a Duron Carter will forego NFL opportunities to be able work in a league that doesn't pee test for THC...

Raising the SMS or ELC 10%, or even 30% is not going to change the level of talent we attract.  And reducing QB slaries to max $350k will definately not help.  Hard enough getting a Manzeil up here, or a Freeman.  Freeman is here to try for at least landing a $500k CFL QB spot, if he can't rekindle NFL interests...  if his ceiling was $350k... decisions might be different.

You have to think long term on this one. No, you can't do 50% in one fell swoop, which would make a difference. Incrementally is doable though. Successful organizations keep an eye on the long term too.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2018, 11:38:42 PM »

You have to think long term on this one. No, you can't do 50% in one fell swoop, which would make a difference. Incrementally is doable though. Successful organizations keep an eye on the long term too.

SMS is incrementally increasing, and will probably again with the new CBA, but is a fiscally responsible way...
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bomb squad
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« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2018, 11:48:44 PM »

SMS is incrementally increasing, and will probably again with the new CBA, but is a fiscally responsible way...

Which is what they did in the last CBA. They're going to have to do that again in 19, and again after that until we are where we need to be.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2018, 12:48:44 AM »

there are a little of 1.08M kids playing high school football in the USA, of that only about 6.8% of those kids will go on to play football at the Div I-II-III level, or about 73,600. Of those kids playing in the NCAA, a little over 16K of those kids become eligible to enter the NFL draft, which there are only 253 slots for, or 1.5%. So, going back and taking in consideration the number of kids we started with, approximately .0002% of high school kids that play football can realistically expect to play in the NFL some day. Talk about a bubble burst-er, lol....  Of course this math doesn't account for the undrafted free agents that don't get drafted and are invited to a camp try out, but you get the picture.

However, without a significant influx of money from a new revenue stream this really can't be done, like we've said. The type of money it will take to change the view of players can't be generated through additional ticket sales or increases in ticket price. It will require a TV deal of some sort to do this. But it's very possible to do, I believe. And the beauty thing about it, if you can get the minimum high enough that it equates to more than what they could make getting a job, say in the $150K-$200K range, there is enough talent out there that know they maybe aren't NFL stock that would be interested in a pro football career that there really wouldn't be a lot of room for NFL wanna be's to come and take jobs. As I see it, this new group of players would not be interested in single year contracts. For this kind of money they would hope to secure more long term deals. Longer terms, more team stability, less opportunity for a transient player population... As I suggested earlier, top it out at the $600K level to keep it more of that cozy, accessible, working man's league where players are fairly compensated and teams will become profitable and essentially more stable as well.  Win-Win... lol  Now we just have to figure out how to make it happen!  Who do we call? lol
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GCn18
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« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2018, 04:13:47 AM »

Raise the mins 10k leave the SMS at the same level with small incremental increases and get ready for the strike that will inevitably occur next year when the vets go ballistic over the idea in the CBA bargaining. This is realistically the only way unless you spread out minimum salary increases over a number of years to lessen the immediate impact to the veterans that run the CFLPA.
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« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2018, 04:24:11 AM »

Which is what they did in the last CBA. They're going to have to do that again in 19, and again after that until we are where we need to be.

Which is where exactly...? CFL wages can continue to increase but so does the cost of living, housing, etc.

Unless there's some new and somewhat immediate revenue stream for the league, minimum/lowered salaried players are going to be in a tough position more often than not.
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« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2018, 03:19:40 PM »

The CFL can't raise salaries without raising revenue. Moving the starting date of the season forward so we can get more US viewers could be a step in the right direction to eventually raising a new revenue stream.

It's about supply and demand more than anything. As long as there are 10 or 20 or more players for every open spot who are wiling to play for the league minimum, the CFL doesn't need to increase the minimum salary.

The players have a union that negotiates on their behalf. That's where a demand for higher initial salaries would come from. That union has consistently gone for higher SMS $ which means higher salaries for the best players, not higher salaries for the rookies. I don't see that changing during the next negotiations.
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bomb squad
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« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2018, 03:24:18 PM »

Which is where exactly...? CFL wages can continue to increase but so does the cost of living, housing, etc.

Unless there's some new and somewhat immediate revenue stream for the league, minimum/lowered salaried players are going to be in a tough position more often than not.

I think they went up a little higher than the cost of living last CBA. To your question, I don't think anybody knows exactly what the target is. I would say if salaries were at least 50% higher today than are today, that would noticeably improve the product. Yes, growing revenue streams and developing new ones is how you have to get there. Develop and execute a sound business plan. Be innovative. Yes, it will take a lot of work and some time. Ambrosie has to lead that. Relying on the quick, easy fix isn't a sound plan.

Don't get me wrong, this league has come a long way in my relatively long life and I love it. It just has so much more untapped potential.
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« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2018, 03:44:37 PM »

It would be interesting to get some insight from a former CFL recruiter on how salary levels impacted their ability to recruit. My hunch is a significant number of talented players pass on the CFL and opt to establish their livelihood careers instead. The 20's are critical years for that. Right now it's questionable if the salaries compensate enough to attract those players.

There ya go. Hit the nail on the head. I would like to add that a cap increase will not work so long as GM's keep paying their top 4 or 5 guys half of the cap leaving half for the other 30 or so players. If the salary cap were increased it would give licence to pay the top end guys even more. This happens on every team in every professional league. The problem is that the CFL doesn't have the resources to make it work effectively.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2018, 06:17:49 PM »

you know, it's just as easy to set a maximum pay level as it is to set a minimum level... but you're right, as long as there are 10-20 player per position willing to play for nothing they will continue to pay them nothing...

a while back a buddy on mine had a construction business and his theory was he want to keep cost down and since there so many out of work construction workers at the time we kept hiring these guys at $10-$12 an hour. It was a nightmare for him, if they showed up they screwed up more than they saved. I told him that if he paid someone $20 an hour he would be money ahead, as long as they paid for themselves. They showed up, worked harder, and faster....  just like my tagline says, just because you can doesn't mean you should...

but there is truly little that the CFL can do at this point to have a significant enough of a revenue stream other than some sort of new tv rights type of deal south that could support any significant raise in SMS.
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« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2018, 06:40:14 PM »

I think they went up a little higher than the cost of living last CBA. To your question, I don't think anybody knows exactly what the target is. I would say if salaries were at least 50% higher today than are today, that would noticeably improve the product. Yes, growing revenue streams and developing new ones is how you have to get there. Develop and execute a sound business plan. Be innovative. Yes, it will take a lot of work and some time. Ambrosie has to lead that. Relying on the quick, easy fix isn't a sound plan.

Don't get me wrong, this league has come a long way in my relatively long life and I love it. It just has so much more untapped potential.

It's a daunting task with only nine viable* markets. Even adding a tenth remains a question mark at this point. US expansion probably won't ever happen again, either.

The next aspect is the TV market one. There are only so many markets here in Canada and I have to think they're all pretty well tapped at the present time. That means the next step is tapping into the US market, which in itself is another daunting task. It's doable and should be utilized but I don't think that puts the league in a position to increase salaries dramatically in the near future.

*Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal currently appear to be struggling
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« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2018, 06:47:04 PM »

I wonder if China would be interested in the CFL. As a nation they are hockey crazy right now so why not football? How about Japan? India maybe.? One wonders if there has been any serious effort on behalf of the CFL to explore these markets. With 3 billion people in China alone, if the CFL could capture one quarter of that population, 750 million, it would provide the resources necessary to make a lot of CFL dreams come true. Its a global world now. The NBA, NHL, MLB are all aware of this and are marketing their product in with that in mind.
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« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2018, 07:57:20 PM »

I wonder if China would be interested in the CFL. As a nation they are hockey crazy right now so why not football? How about Japan? India maybe.? One wonders if there has been any serious effort on behalf of the CFL to explore these markets. With 3 billion people in China alone, if the CFL could capture one quarter of that population, 750 million, it would provide the resources necessary to make a lot of CFL dreams come true. Its a global world now. The NBA, NHL, MLB are all aware of this and are marketing their product in with that in mind.

Marketing the CFL overseas would be very expensive and highly competitive. It would have to go up against well-established leagues there across a pretty varied spectrum in more popular sports: baseball, basketball, cricket, rugby, and soccer (the most popular sport on Earth).

Those are all multi-billion dollar leagues that have the money to throw around not only at marketing their product internationally but playing actual games internationally to showcase said product. The CFL currently can't afford to do that.

The NFL continues to mull over having a game in China: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/21/nfls-china-plans-come-to-a-halt-but-league-isnt-giving-up-on-permanent-london-team/?utm_term=.f2436de0a6b4

Just last year, the NFL entered into a three-year agreement to stream content in China: https://www.forbes.com/sites/augustrick/2018/02/02/nfl-china-tencent-superbowl-streaming-mobile/#2435b0273fdd

Perhaps the CFL could explore a similar arrangement to stream its games overseas.

China's population is around 1.4B, BTW.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2018, 07:57:58 PM »

right again, on both points... even though only a small handful of people actually make it back to the NFL, there many that THINK they have a shot and want to leave and try. Ultimately, as we have seen of late, unsets the apple cart so to speak...  and for a pay range as I suggest it would take a significant contract, however, it's a big pool of money down here... for example, NASCAR, is still getting more money on their latest contract even though they have lost 47% of it audience...  if you're going to dream, dream big!   Wink

Wow that's a huge drop, much like the popularity of golf which has dropped off a cliff with the demise of Tiger Woods, NASCAR viewership numbers probably weren't sustainable long-term.  Sports broadcasting seems to be in a flux with changing viewing habits and cord-cutter numbers growing yearly, bubbles become over-inflated on speculation of record profits based on huge long-term broadcasting contracts but eventually they burst and return to more sustainable levels over time.  I always viewed continuous growth cycles with suspicion.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2018, 08:34:06 PM »

Wow that's a huge drop, much like the popularity of golf which has dropped off a cliff with the demise of Tiger Woods, NASCAR viewership numbers probably weren't sustainable long-term.  Sports broadcasting seems to be in a flux with changing viewing habits and cord-cutter numbers growing yearly, bubbles become over-inflated on speculation of record profits based on huge long-term broadcasting contracts but eventually they burst and return to more sustainable levels over time.  I always viewed continuous growth cycles with suspicion.

seriously... the stands are half empty at the majority of the races... the France family, who created NASCAR, has done an equally great job of killing it... stupid rule changes and catering to a fan base that everyone knew was temporary, all the while ignoring and alienating their core fan base...  If you think that I'm a little passionate about football, I was over the top when it came to racing and NASCAR... didn't watch but 3 races this year, and none from start to finish...
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2018, 08:43:14 PM »

I don't see why expanding viewership to the US is seen as daunting or unrealistic...  the number one sport in the US is... football.... Canada has football, why not show it off down south?

There are a ton of rabid football viewing and you would only have to attract less than 20,000th of 1 percent of the current NFL viewing audience to equal current viewership, not of the nation's population, just of current football fans...

the league starts and plays meaningful football 3 MONTHS before the NFL kicksoff...

There are tons of stupid companies with too much money that just love to throw it away on advertising to people who are not, and probably never will be, a customer...

There is at least 2 new sports dedicated channel funded by 2 of the biggest networks in the free world, CBS and NBC, who I am sure are hungry to get some real sports programming...

the XFL is coming, we can either watch it happen, make it happen, or wonder what the **** happened.... lol... just sayin'

but it is a lot easier to just sit back and claim that it's already been tried or it's too hard....
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« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2018, 08:52:07 PM »

I don't see why expanding viewership to the US is seen as daunting...

I said daunting as it relates to trying to increase revenue in some significant way to bump up players' salaries.

Of course the CFL should tap into the US market to increase viewership of its product. I simply remain skeptical on how impactful that would be in terms of filling the coffers of the league.
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« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2018, 09:00:43 PM »

I don't see why expanding viewership to the US is seen as daunting or unrealistic...  the number one sport in the US is... football.... Canada has football, why not show it off down south?

There are a ton of rabid football viewing and you would only have to attract less than 20,000th of 1 percent of the current NFL viewing audience to equal current viewership, not of the nation's population, just of current football fans...

the league starts and plays meaningful football 3 MONTHS before the NFL kicksoff...

There are tons of stupid companies with too much money that just love to throw it away on advertising to people who are not, and probably never will be, a customer...

There is at least 2 new sports dedicated channel funded by 2 of the biggest networks in the free world, CBS and NBC, who I am sure are hungry to get some real sports programming...

the XFL is coming, we can either watch it happen, make it happen, or wonder what the **** happened.... lol... just sayin'

but it is a lot easier to just sit back and claim that it's already been tried or it's too hard....

How do you suggest they do that more than it's already been done? There is an agreement in place with ESPN as you know. The CFL likely isn't going to spend a lot of money, nor does it likely have a lot of money, to go on a prolonged advertising campaign throughout the US. Do you really think most Americans would tune in to watch the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and BC Lions on a Friday night on a regular basis? I just can't see it. The rule differences work against the game down there too. I just can't see the average American buying into the league which is what it would take for it to be successful. To use an rough analogy that those in Canada could relate too, that would sort of be like the KHL advertising itself to the hockey-crazed fans in Canada and wondering why it's not working (for the vast majority).
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2018, 09:00:54 PM »

I said daunting as it relates to trying to increase revenue in some significant way to bump up players' salaries.

Of course the CFL should tap into the US market to increase viewership of its product. I simply remain skeptical on how impactful that would be in terms of filling the coffers of the league.

I wasn't singling you out, that's why I didn't quote you, as that has been been out there for a while...

honestly, I would have to believe that there is money here in amounts large enough to actually impact things. For starters, the CFL is a great product, something that I feel would not be a hard sell. And being an NFL fan for years, I can honestly say that the only reason that I haven't been watching the CFL for years now is... because it was never on my radar... never heard anything about it... didn't consider it an option as there is absolutely ZERO mention of it, or marketing of any kind for the CFL down here...  then throw in the whole, 'we have meaningful football, great football, 3 months earlier in the year for the football fan'?  doesn't sound like a hard sell to me...
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2018, 09:08:52 PM »

How do you suggest they do that more than it's already been done? There is an agreement in place with ESPN as you know. The CFL likely isn't going to spend a lot of money, nor does it likely have a lot of money, to go on a prolonged advertising campaign throughout the US. Do you really think most Americans would tune in to watch the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and BC Lions on a Friday night on a regular basis? I just can't see it. The rule differences work against the game down there too. I just can't see the average American buying into the league which is what it would take for it to be successful. To use an rough analogy that those in Canada could relate too, that would sort of be like the KHL advertising itself to the hockey-crazed fans in Canada and wondering why it's not working (for the vast majority).

and honestly, I think ESPN hurts the equation more than helps as they do NOTHING to promote programming for the CFL, not even for their online streaming... they say ZERO,,, so, if you don't know that there is opportunity, a fan doesn't go looking for it...  Even this year's playoffs, I had no clue that they were going to be televised here on ESPN2.... the weeks leading up to the games I saw all kinds of marketing of the NCAA games, as well as other sports, but nothing related to the CFL playoff games that were coming up... I didn't even DVR them because I didn't know it was going to be on until I was on my way up to Winnipeg...

Depending on how the current contract is structured, I start with contacting CBS and NBC as they are in the infancy of upstart sports only channels. ABC owns ESPN, so as the local cable providers die off down south, providers such as Directv and Dish are gobbling up the majority of TV markets. Which is a 'plus' for the CFL as most networks bundle a group of channels as their offering to these providers, so, instead of having to have individual subscribers sign up and pay additional money to watch this programming, you get a letter in the mail saying your current subscription is going to raise 25 cents being 'pick a month and insert here'.... most never realize that their rate went up...
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2018, 09:14:42 PM »

AND, the reason why there is not marketing down here is because we can't get any of the channels that it is currently being televised on, so, no need for the CFL to market it, which in turns limits visibility and demand...  and this whole thing of internet access... I brought my ipad to Winnipeg because I was going to watch the Missouri-Tennessee game on it while there, but no, because my stuff wouldn't work in Canada... However, i was able to watch it on my phone thru my directv app because it thought that I was still in Missouri... or some other reason... lol... but long story short, too many hoops to jump through for those types of devices, at least for me, they have to make it easy...

ESPN probably wants the rights to keep other from getting them to have alternate programming available while they are showing bass fishing or something....
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« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2018, 09:19:25 PM »

and honestly, I think ESPN hurts the equation more than helps as they do NOTHING to promote programming for the CFL, not even for their online streaming... they say ZERO,,, so, if you don't know that there is opportunity, a fan doesn't go looking for it...  Even this year's playoffs, I had no clue that they were going to be televised here on ESPN2.... the weeks leading up to the games I saw all kinds of marketing of the NCAA games, as well as other sports, but nothing related to the CFL playoff games that were coming up... I didn't even DVR them because I didn't know it was going to be on until I was on my way up to Winnipeg...

Depending on how the current contract is structured, I start with contacting CBS and NBC as they are in the infancy of upstart sports only channels. ABC owns ESPN, so as the local cable providers die off down south, providers such as Directv and Dish are gobbling up the majority of TV markets. Which is a 'plus' for the CFL as most networks bundle a group of channels as their offering to these providers, so, instead of having to have individual subscribers sign up and pay additional money to watch this programming, you get a letter in the mail saying your current subscription is going to raise 25 cents being 'pick a month and insert here'.... most never realize that their rate went up...

Don't get me wrong - it would be awesome if more Americans followed and watched the CFL. That would be great for our league, players, and game. The issue is I personally think it's virtually impossible to get much interest without having some teams in the country and I think that's a non-starter for the league and most current CFL fans. The CFL would also be up against years of 'America = Football = NFL' messaging and that largely fatally wounds any CFL marketing attempt before it begins. Not to mention, I love the CFL but you watch one SNF broadcast and you understand there is vast difference in production values. That will be jarring to most of the audience you're trying to win over.

To illustrate just how hard it is, look at soccer. Champions League and the major European teams looked at North America as a potentially great way to expand revenues and audience for years. Largely, they were unsuccessful. The MLS has exploded onto the scene because that league is in the US and has an aura of credibility as a result. The CFL will never really be credible to the average American. Try explaining the ratio rules to someone from Texas with no affiliation to the league. It just doesn't have a hope in hell.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2018, 09:23:25 PM »

lets look at it like this... let's start with what I'm doing today and what can I do differently...

today I am basically doing nothing, but, there is reasons for that... I already have a tv deal.... however, it only helps to advertise north as that is the only place that can watch my product... and I believe that I've tapped out that resource, for whatever reason....

but I have a great product... one that translates almost identically, at least in scope and theory, to another product... a product that is huge down south... so that becomes my target... so you have to find a way to get it to the available, untapped market...

maybe, instead of finding a place to have it shown first, you go look for a marketing partner... making phone calls doesn't cost that much, (and I know that it takes more than that), but first find a potential advertising partner that you take with you to the network... that way you not only bring a product to the network, but you also bring them a revenue stream...

now that took a simple person like me about 20 minutes to come up with 'something', I have to believe there are a lot more people out here that are a whole lot smarter than me than can some up with come creative ideas that makes everybody 'win'....  or maybe not...
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2018, 09:30:19 PM »

Don't get me wrong - it would be awesome if more Americans followed and watched the CFL. That would be great for our league, players, and game. The issue is I personally think it's virtually impossible to get much interest without having some teams in the country and I think that's a non-starter for the league and most current CFL fans. The CFL would also be up against years of 'America = Football = NFL' messaging and that largely fatally wounds any CFL marketing attempt before it begins. Not to mention, I love the CFL but you watch one SNF broadcast and you understand there is vast difference in production values. That will be jarring to most of the audience you're trying to win over.

To illustrate just how hard it is, look at soccer. Champions League and the major European teams looked at North America as a potentially great way to expand revenues and audience for years. Largely, they were unsuccessful. The MLS has exploded onto the scene because that league is in the US and has an aura of credibility as a result. The CFL will never really be credible to the average American. Try explaining the ratio rules to someone from Texas with no affiliation to the league. It just doesn't have a hope in hell.

see, I completely disagree with that notion that if there aren't teams here I have no interest in it.... it's FOOTBALL!  Miami is a lot further from my house than Winnipeg or Toronto is... it's just a line, a border... I watch all kinds of sports that I enjoy yet have no reason to have to go to the game in person...  because from my perspective, you're tapping into, and adding to, my already decided upon, number one sport to watch and follow... I like it so much, as other do as well, that they have channels, both college and the NFL, that run year round to help fill our desire to keep being involved in football... you're just adding too, and attempting to help satisfy my already existing desire to have more football in my life, and making it easier for me...  I think the difference is, unlike soccer, no body likes soccer, you're not trying to convert me to a different sport, you're just expanding my season... because quite honestly, even if it's bad football, it's better than no football... I find myself watching games all of the time that I have zero interest in just because its football....
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2018, 09:33:43 PM »

and you may not get $100 million a year in the first contract, but any you do get is more than you are currently getting...
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« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2018, 09:44:52 PM »

Don't advertise the CFL based on the teams in the US. Base the advertising to the vast amounts of college football fans who probably don't realize that a lot of their favorite alumni are now playing here.

Advertise that former player X from Y college and his Winnipeg Blue Bombers will be taking on playerZ from X university and his BC Lions and you are far more likely to draw in viewers.

Use the players. Most Americans don't realize that a lot of CFL players were US college standouts. Make them aware.
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« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2018, 09:53:09 PM »

I wonder if Ambrosie should think about talking with Vince McMahon. Like cross-over games with the XFL to pull interest both sides of the border. The games could use the NFL rules as I  would think it would be much easier for our players to adapt given the US players on CFL teams. Something to think about and no risk for the CFL.
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« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2018, 10:47:40 PM »

Marketing the CFL overseas would be very expensive and highly competitive. It would have to go up against well-established leagues there across a pretty varied spectrum in more popular sports: baseball, basketball, cricket, rugby, and soccer (the most popular sport on Earth).

Those are all multi-billion dollar leagues that have the money to throw around not only at marketing their product internationally but playing actual games internationally to showcase said product. The CFL currently can't afford to do that.

The NFL continues to mull over having a game in China: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/21/nfls-china-plans-come-to-a-halt-but-league-isnt-giving-up-on-permanent-london-team/?utm_term=.f2436de0a6b4

Thanks for the links, very informative.

I guess I was thinking that 40 years ago who would have thought there would be NHL teams in Dallas,Miami,Tampa Bay, and Phoenix.

But different demographic I guess. Too bad, because like I said if the CFL could only get a small portion of the population interested thats some nice bank.

Streaming might be the answer. I hope they give it a try.


Just last year, the NFL entered into a three-year agreement to stream content in China: https://www.forbes.com/sites/augustrick/2018/02/02/nfl-china-tencent-superbowl-streaming-mobile/#2435b0273fdd

Perhaps the CFL could explore a similar arrangement to stream its games overseas.

China's population is around 1.4B, BTW.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #89 on: February 08, 2018, 12:42:47 AM »

I wasn't singling you out, that's why I didn't quote you, as that has been been out there for a while...

honestly, I would have to believe that there is money here in amounts large enough to actually impact things. For starters, the CFL is a great product, something that I feel would not be a hard sell. And being an NFL fan for years, I can honestly say that the only reason that I haven't been watching the CFL for years now is... because it was never on my radar... never heard anything about it... didn't consider it an option as there is absolutely ZERO mention of it, or marketing of any kind for the CFL down here...  then throw in the whole, 'we have meaningful football, great football, 3 months earlier in the year for the football fan'?  doesn't sound like a hard sell to me...

I didn't think that. I just thought it worthwhile to clarify. Smiley

From the perspective of creating awareness of the league outside of Canada's borders, the US is without a doubt the first and most crucial step. I don't think it's a matter of the CFL being a hard sell, either. If anything, it'd be the contrary if the league were promoted properly. My concern, however, is I don't know if the CFL is currently in a position to spend hefty sums of cash to promote itself south of the 49th. The old adage "you gotta spend money to make money" is key here and I'm not sure if "flush with cash" is how one can describe the league at the present time.

To use an rough analogy that those in Canada could relate too, that would sort of be like the KHL advertising itself to the hockey-crazed fans in Canada and wondering why it's not working (for the vast majority).

This is a pretty solid analogy. Well said.

Don't advertise the CFL based on the teams in the US. Base the advertising to the vast amounts of college football fans who probably don't realize that a lot of their favorite alumni are now playing here.

Advertise that former player X from Y college and his Winnipeg Blue Bombers will be taking on playerZ from X university and his BC Lions and you are far more likely to draw in viewers.

Use the players. Most Americans don't realize that a lot of CFL players were US college standouts. Make them aware.

The college angle is a pretty intriguing one, IMO. I think using that could be advantageous for the league.
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« Reply #90 on: February 08, 2018, 01:14:24 AM »

Don't advertise the CFL based on the teams in the US. Base the advertising to the vast amounts of college football fans who probably don't realize that a lot of their favorite alumni are now playing here.

Advertise that former player X from Y college and his Winnipeg Blue Bombers will be taking on playerZ from X university and his BC Lions and you are far more likely to draw in viewers.

Use the players. Most Americans don't realize that a lot of CFL players were US college standouts. Make them aware.

great idea..... but a media campaign in the USA wouldn't give a solid return on investment.  It would cost much more than it would bring in.  The CFL isn't rich and never will be.  Just not enough teams / fans to power it like other sports leagues.  Better value on marketing in Canada where the fans go to games, watch it on TV and buy merch.  Acquiring more American fans via a media campaign is a great idea but the expense it would cost isn't feasible.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #91 on: February 08, 2018, 01:47:29 AM »

How do you suggest they do that more than it's already been done? There is an agreement in place with ESPN as you know. The CFL likely isn't going to spend a lot of money, nor does it likely have a lot of money, to go on a prolonged advertising campaign throughout the US. Do you really think most Americans would tune in to watch the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and BC Lions on a Friday night on a regular basis? I just can't see it. The rule differences work against the game down there too. I just can't see the average American buying into the league which is what it would take for it to be successful. To use an rough analogy that those in Canada could relate too, that would sort of be like the KHL advertising itself to the hockey-crazed fans in Canada and wondering why it's not working (for the vast majority).

wanted to give this some thought...

let's say that the CFL and NBC were to partner, the CFL wouldn't have to have a marketing budget because NBC would promote the CFL on there channel, and other NBC owned channels, as it is in their best interest. All the CFL has to do in this scenario would be able to put on games.  There is even opportunity when partnering with this type of sports channel for the CFL to produce additional programming that could be sold to the network as well. In fact, the NBC sports channel could be a good partner as they already carry hockey.  As for the rest of their 'bang up' programming, they carry soccer, rugby, formula one, Ivy League college football, and Notre Dame football, and seasonal Olympic coverage. Tell me that they would not be interested in the CFL.

As far as the CFL line up, I think it is entirely possible for the US viewing audience to be perfectly fine with it. I don't know if you know how the NFL coverage works here, so if you'll indulge me... Living in Missouri, each Sunday I get 4 games, 2 NFC and 2 AFC games. For the AFC games, 1 will be the Chiefs and the other could be anyone, actually. For the NFC games, when the Rams were in St. Louis, we'd get their game and 1 other NFC game. There would be an early and late game and on opposing channels. So basically, I watch the Chiefs and 1 of the other 2, which ever interests me more. Then there is the Sunday night game, Monday night game, and at times a Thursday night game on the NFL channel. All of these games are national games and could be anything.  So, with 32 teams, you get your local market team(s) and then national games.  I tell you this because the way the CFL is currently, all teams would basically become 'local market teams' because we'd be able to see the team of our choice each week, just like I do the Chiefs. There's a chance, though slight, that I may not see a Lions game at all during a season unless they make the playoffs. As of now, if my only option is to watch a Bills/Jets game, I would if that was all that's on, but I wouldn't be excited because it was on.

So, the US viewing public could pick a CFL team as 'their' team and have the advantage of having access to every game that team plays. And again, the CFL starts 3 months earlier than NCAA and NFL so you're 'fishing in a barrel' so to speak. The small league also plays into the favor of the CFL because as a new option it seems more 'manageable' from the stand point of team identification and keeping up with the action as it mirrors a NCAA college conference that has 2 divisions. For example, the SEC, they have 14 teams divided into 2 division. This is the conference my Tigers play in so I watch all the SEC games as first option and follow the SEC more closely than say the PAC 12.

So, the CFL gets the best of both worlds, so to speak. The label of being a 'pro' football team that will have all of the college players coming from the NCAA, like the NFL, and the smaller, cozy size of a NCAA conference. So, in my opinion, it limitations that some may think the CFL has will actually work in the CFL's favor. Because there is 32 teams in the NFL and 120 Div I teams, the current fan now will generally break it down to their favorite team and their conference or division and that is what they will follow religiously. And for example, I would watch the other CFL games last year if I was home, which was most of the time, because it was easy to do.

Again, using me as an example, I didn't know that the rules were different prior to watching my first CFL game. I did know that the field was bigger but that was pretty much where it ended. But as I've said before, the rules in the CFL make sense, one to the other, so it's easier to follow and understand.  I had no idea that CFL was 3 down football, didn't take long to learn that it was though. But, when watching the first time it's not like you have to take a test in order to view, so, you get acclimated to the differences as they happen. And since the differences seem to fit the overall game and the differences as a collective, it's not hard to follow or pick up on. Except the kicking, I still don't understand it all, like a field goal miss and the receiving team kicking it back... but whatever, lol. Plus, NFL fans are generally NCAA fans as well and the two of them have several different rules and penalties as well already, so, we're use to switching gears back and forth. So, there are already things about each of those games I prefer over the other but at the end of the day it doesn't actually impact my enjoyment of watching either.

I know that their have been efforts to do 'stuff' in the past, some with limited success and others with little to no success. But I would be the first to say this, it would be foolish to try and bring the game to the US again as it would not be any more successful here now, than it was before. So you ask, then why would we watch it. The difference is that if you attempted to expand here in the US with actual team placement, a) that would take a lot of money, b) prime markets are already full with generally a pro baseball, basketball, hockey, and or football team already and would be doomed from the start to create a new fan base. The type of thing requires commitment on the part of 1,000's of people for it to succeed and once fans hear of the 'struggling' teams they assume the worse and won't tune in. However, to simply watch games all I have to do is turn on the TV, something I'm already doing now and cost me nothing. With the current teams in the CFL you don't see a struggling league, quite the opposite. It's made of quality players that put on an even better show. Do you think we get games like the one where the Bombers came back from 3 scores down with 1:41 left in the game here in the NFL?  Hell no we don't...

In closing, you all should have to be the ones selling me on the game, not the other way around. If a fan of the NFL, that has been watching NFL games for 40+ years has become this big of fan in less than a year, you'd have to believe that it is entirely possible for others to do the same. Because one of the biggest selling points is you don't have to compete with an existing product, not the NFL or the NCAA. You get a 3 month head start of exclusive meaningful games for the football fan.

Today was national signing day for the NCAA, I've been tracking recruits all day as my football activity for the day... me and 100,000's others... my TV in my office is on the NFL channel all day, most days, even if I'm not watching it, I'm listening to it... I think you guys may undervalue your game just a little, or have been told for so long by the uninformed that it's lesser and you've began to believe it... but's if that's the case, it's not true... from top to bottom the teams are a lot more equal in talent therefore making for more interesting games. When watching games, you don't notice any difference of any size between the talent on the field as opposed to the NFL and is a notch above your NCAA play.

I don't know, I love the CFL and all it's made up of...  The only thing I would like to see happen down the road is to obtain the financial stability to be able to pay players better so that the CFL core player is different than the NFL player and players could sign longer contracts for decent pay and only the occasional loss of a player to the NFL as opposed to now and the worry that all of our good players are headed to the NFL. And I think that's possible. Not everyone would feel like they need to be in the NFL when the payday separates them from let's say, having to have a second job to make it... For some, it's not all about the money, they'd play forever is they made $125,000 a year... even forgo the NFL dream if that dream limits them to a NFL practice squad...
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pjrocksmb
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This is the CFL- support our league- Go Canada!


« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2018, 01:53:09 AM »

wanted to give this some thought...

let's say that the CFL and NBC were to partner, the CFL wouldn't have to have a marketing budget because NBC would promote the CFL on there channel, and other NBC owned channels, as it is in their best interest. All the CFL has to do in this scenario would be able to put on games.  There is even opportunity when partnering with this type of sports channel for the CFL to produce additional programming that could be sold to the network as well. In fact, the NBC sports channel could be a good partner as they already carry hockey.  As for the rest of their 'bang up' programming, they carry soccer, rugby, formula one, Ivy League college football, and Notre Dame football, and seasonal Olympic coverage. Tell me that they would not be interested in the CFL.

As far as the CFL line up, I think it is entirely possible for the US viewing audience to be perfectly fine with it. I don't know if you know how the NFL coverage works here, so if you'll indulge me... Living in Missouri, each Sunday I get 4 games, 2 NFC and 2 AFC games. For the AFC games, 1 will be the Chiefs and the other could be anyone, actually. For the NFC games, when the Rams were in St. Louis, we'd get their game and 1 other NFC game. There would be an early and late game and on opposing channels. So basically, I watch the Chiefs and 1 of the other 2, which ever interests me more. Then there is the Sunday night game, Monday night game, and at times a Thursday night game on the NFL channel. All of these games are national games and could be anything.  So, with 32 teams, you get your local market team(s) and then national games.  I tell you this because the way the CFL is currently, all teams would basically become 'local market teams' because we'd be able to see the team of our choice each week, just like I do the Chiefs. There's a chance, though slight, that I may not see a Lions game at all during a season unless they make the playoffs. As of now, if my only option is to watch a Bills/Jets game, I would if that was all that's on, but I wouldn't be excited because it was on.

So, the US viewing public could pick a CFL team as 'their' team and have the advantage of having access to every game that team plays. And again, the CFL starts 3 months earlier than NCAA and NFL so you're 'fishing in a barrel' so to speak. The small league also plays into the favor of the CFL because as a new option it seems more 'manageable' from the stand point of team identification and keeping up with the action as it mirrors a NCAA college conference that has 2 divisions. For example, the SEC, they have 14 teams divided into 2 division. This is the conference my Tigers play in so I watch all the SEC games as first option and follow the SEC more closely than say the PAC 12.

So, the CFL gets the best of both worlds, so to speak. The label of being a 'pro' football team that will have all of the college players coming from the NCAA, like the NFL, and the smaller, cozy size of a NCAA conference. So, in my opinion, it limitations that some may think the CFL has will actually work in the CFL's favor. Because there is 32 teams in the NFL and 120 Div I teams, the current fan now will generally break it down to their favorite team and their conference or division and that is what they will follow religiously. And for example, I would watch the other CFL games last year if I was home, which was most of the time, because it was easy to do.

Again, using me as an example, I didn't know that the rules were different prior to watching my first CFL game. I did know that the field was bigger but that was pretty much where it ended. But as I've said before, the rules in the CFL make sense, one to the other, so it's easier to follow and understand.  I had no idea that CFL was 3 down football, didn't take long to learn that it was though. But, when watching the first time it's not like you have to take a test in order to view, so, you get acclimated to the differences as they happen. And since the differences seem to fit the overall game and the differences as a collective, it's not hard to follow or pick up on. Except the kicking, I still don't understand it all, like a field goal miss and the receiving team kicking it back... but whatever, lol. Plus, NFL fans are generally NCAA fans as well and the two of them have several different rules and penalties as well already, so, we're use to switching gears back and forth. So, there are already things about each of those games I prefer over the other but at the end of the day it doesn't actually impact my enjoyment of watching either.

I know that their have been efforts to do 'stuff' in the past, some with limited success and others with little to no success. But I would be the first to say this, it would be foolish to try and bring the game to the US again as it would not be any more successful here now, than it was before. So you ask, then why would we watch it. The difference is that if you attempted to expand here in the US with actual team placement, a) that would take a lot of money, b) prime markets are already full with generally a pro baseball, basketball, hockey, and or football team already and would be doomed from the start to create a new fan base. The type of thing requires commitment on the part of 1,000's of people for it to succeed and once fans hear of the 'struggling' teams they assume the worse and won't tune in. However, to simply watch games all I have to do is turn on the TV, something I'm already doing now and cost me nothing. With the current teams in the CFL you don't see a struggling league, quite the opposite. It's made of quality players that put on an even better show. Do you think we get games like the one where the Bombers came back from 3 scores down with 1:41 left in the game here in the NFL?  Hell no we don't...

In closing, you all should have to be the ones selling me on the game, not the other way around. If a fan of the NFL, that has been watching NFL games for 40+ years has become this big of fan in less than a year, you'd have to believe that it is entirely possible for others to do the same. Because one of the biggest selling points is you don't have to compete with an existing product, not the NFL or the NCAA. You get a 3 month head start of exclusive meaningful games for the football fan.

Today was national signing day for the NCAA, I've been tracking recruits all day as my football activity for the day... me and 100,000's others... my TV in my office is on the NFL channel all day, most days, even if I'm not watching it, I'm listening to it... I think you guys may undervalue your game just a little, or have been told for so long by the uninformed that it's lesser and you've began to believe it... but's if that's the case, it's not true... from top to bottom the teams are a lot more equal in talent therefore making for more interesting games. When watching games, you don't notice any difference of any size between the talent on the field as opposed to the NFL and is a notch above your NCAA play.

I don't know, I love the CFL and all it's made up of...  The only thing I would like to see happen down the road is to obtain the financial stability to be able to pay players better so that the CFL core player is different than the NFL player and players could sign longer contracts for decent pay and only the occasional loss of a player to the NFL as opposed to now and the worry that all of our good players are headed to the NFL. And I think that's possible. Not everyone would feel like they need to be in the NFL when the payday separates them from let's say, having to have a second job to make it... For some, it's not all about the money, they'd play forever is they made $125,000 a year... even forgo the NFL dream if that dream limits them to a NFL practice squad...

In Canada hockey is #1 and the NFL and college ball also draw endless amounts of Canadian fans money and time.  What the CFL is fighting with at the moment is the crazy fixation on the biggest pro sport athletes.  They are celebrities more than anything.  While the CFL has it's share of stars it's nothing like the star power of any of the major leagues.  The world is run on the masses watching what the rich and famous do.  Hard to beat that trend.  I am happy having the CFL being small, affordable and real.  Don't need the big bucks or mega stars.  While I want the league to grow, it's pretty darn good the way is it.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2018, 01:56:42 AM »

great idea..... but a media campaign in the USA wouldn't give a solid return on investment.  It would cost much more than it would bring in.  The CFL isn't rich and never will be.  Just not enough teams / fans to power it like other sports leagues.  Better value on marketing in Canada where the fans go to games, watch it on TV and buy merch.  Acquiring more American fans via a media campaign is a great idea but the expense it would cost isn't feasible.

for the short answer, the CFL wouldn't have to market it or fund the marketing, their partner, the network, shoulders all of that expense, not the CFL...
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jeremy q public
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« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2018, 07:43:33 AM »

The reasons for raising the salary cap are (a) moral and (b) related to attracting and retaining a higher caliber of player. 

The economics suggest that unless there is a significant growth in revenue from a new stream, the possible cap growth is not likely going to be large enough to significantly impact (b).  I don't think substantial increases in ticket prices are even on the table, and haven't really been suggested in this thread. 

So that leaves us with the notion that we should compensate the lower end of the salary spectrum a bit better to at least symbolically acknowledge how these guys beat themselves up for our entertainment.  Alternatives to simply increasing the salary cap would be to use revenue gains to improve pensions and/or provide better health care for injured players.  Neither of those would necessarily break the bank. 

The other issue is whether in fact the revenues have to come first, given the CBA is a multi-year agreement.  I think it would be possible to tie salary cap increases to growth in revenue on a contingent formula.  In other words make the agreement that if and when revenues grow, this proportion will be dedicated to player compensation.  If I was bargaining for the CFLPA, that would be my strategy. 

Your point b just basically rehashed my comment. It?s not gonna work.

Thanks for explaining point A. I?m all for moral thinking when it comes to running a business but I just don?t feel that bad for these guys who get to live out my childhood dream. They?re getting paid a healthy wage to play a game. I agree with tying SMS to revenue but I see no reason for the league to make symbolic gestures about player health. I?d rather they do a better job of protecting player health, which can cost money in itself.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2018, 01:55:44 PM »

wanted to give this some thought...

let's say that the CFL and NBC were to partner, the CFL wouldn't have to have a marketing budget because NBC would promote the CFL on there channel, and other NBC owned channels, as it is in their best interest. All the CFL has to do in this scenario would be able to put on games.  There is even opportunity when partnering with this type of sports channel for the CFL to produce additional programming that could be sold to the network as well. In fact, the NBC sports channel could be a good partner as they already carry hockey.  As for the rest of their 'bang up' programming, they carry soccer, rugby, formula one, Ivy League college football, and Notre Dame football, and seasonal Olympic coverage. Tell me that they would not be interested in the CFL.

As far as the CFL line up, I think it is entirely possible for the US viewing audience to be perfectly fine with it. I don't know if you know how the NFL coverage works here, so if you'll indulge me... Living in Missouri, each Sunday I get 4 games, 2 NFC and 2 AFC games. For the AFC games, 1 will be the Chiefs and the other could be anyone, actually. For the NFC games, when the Rams were in St. Louis, we'd get their game and 1 other NFC game. There would be an early and late game and on opposing channels. So basically, I watch the Chiefs and 1 of the other 2, which ever interests me more. Then there is the Sunday night game, Monday night game, and at times a Thursday night game on the NFL channel. All of these games are national games and could be anything.  So, with 32 teams, you get your local market team(s) and then national games.  I tell you this because the way the CFL is currently, all teams would basically become 'local market teams' because we'd be able to see the team of our choice each week, just like I do the Chiefs. There's a chance, though slight, that I may not see a Lions game at all during a season unless they make the playoffs. As of now, if my only option is to watch a Bills/Jets game, I would if that was all that's on, but I wouldn't be excited because it was on.

So, the US viewing public could pick a CFL team as 'their' team and have the advantage of having access to every game that team plays. And again, the CFL starts 3 months earlier than NCAA and NFL so you're 'fishing in a barrel' so to speak. The small league also plays into the favor of the CFL because as a new option it seems more 'manageable' from the stand point of team identification and keeping up with the action as it mirrors a NCAA college conference that has 2 divisions. For example, the SEC, they have 14 teams divided into 2 division. This is the conference my Tigers play in so I watch all the SEC games as first option and follow the SEC more closely than say the PAC 12.

So, the CFL gets the best of both worlds, so to speak. The label of being a 'pro' football team that will have all of the college players coming from the NCAA, like the NFL, and the smaller, cozy size of a NCAA conference. So, in my opinion, it limitations that some may think the CFL has will actually work in the CFL's favor. Because there is 32 teams in the NFL and 120 Div I teams, the current fan now will generally break it down to their favorite team and their conference or division and that is what they will follow religiously. And for example, I would watch the other CFL games last year if I was home, which was most of the time, because it was easy to do.

Again, using me as an example, I didn't know that the rules were different prior to watching my first CFL game. I did know that the field was bigger but that was pretty much where it ended. But as I've said before, the rules in the CFL make sense, one to the other, so it's easier to follow and understand.  I had no idea that CFL was 3 down football, didn't take long to learn that it was though. But, when watching the first time it's not like you have to take a test in order to view, so, you get acclimated to the differences as they happen. And since the differences seem to fit the overall game and the differences as a collective, it's not hard to follow or pick up on. Except the kicking, I still don't understand it all, like a field goal miss and the receiving team kicking it back... but whatever, lol. Plus, NFL fans are generally NCAA fans as well and the two of them have several different rules and penalties as well already, so, we're use to switching gears back and forth. So, there are already things about each of those games I prefer over the other but at the end of the day it doesn't actually impact my enjoyment of watching either.

I know that their have been efforts to do 'stuff' in the past, some with limited success and others with little to no success. But I would be the first to say this, it would be foolish to try and bring the game to the US again as it would not be any more successful here now, than it was before. So you ask, then why would we watch it. The difference is that if you attempted to expand here in the US with actual team placement, a) that would take a lot of money, b) prime markets are already full with generally a pro baseball, basketball, hockey, and or football team already and would be doomed from the start to create a new fan base. The type of thing requires commitment on the part of 1,000's of people for it to succeed and once fans hear of the 'struggling' teams they assume the worse and won't tune in. However, to simply watch games all I have to do is turn on the TV, something I'm already doing now and cost me nothing. With the current teams in the CFL you don't see a struggling league, quite the opposite. It's made of quality players that put on an even better show. Do you think we get games like the one where the Bombers came back from 3 scores down with 1:41 left in the game here in the NFL?  Hell no we don't...

In closing, you all should have to be the ones selling me on the game, not the other way around. If a fan of the NFL, that has been watching NFL games for 40+ years has become this big of fan in less than a year, you'd have to believe that it is entirely possible for others to do the same. Because one of the biggest selling points is you don't have to compete with an existing product, not the NFL or the NCAA. You get a 3 month head start of exclusive meaningful games for the football fan.

Today was national signing day for the NCAA, I've been tracking recruits all day as my football activity for the day... me and 100,000's others... my TV in my office is on the NFL channel all day, most days, even if I'm not watching it, I'm listening to it... I think you guys may undervalue your game just a little, or have been told for so long by the uninformed that it's lesser and you've began to believe it... but's if that's the case, it's not true... from top to bottom the teams are a lot more equal in talent therefore making for more interesting games. When watching games, you don't notice any difference of any size between the talent on the field as opposed to the NFL and is a notch above your NCAA play.

I don't know, I love the CFL and all it's made up of...  The only thing I would like to see happen down the road is to obtain the financial stability to be able to pay players better so that the CFL core player is different than the NFL player and players could sign longer contracts for decent pay and only the occasional loss of a player to the NFL as opposed to now and the worry that all of our good players are headed to the NFL. And I think that's possible. Not everyone would feel like they need to be in the NFL when the payday separates them from let's say, having to have a second job to make it... For some, it's not all about the money, they'd play forever is they made $125,000 a year... even forgo the NFL dream if that dream limits them to a NFL practice squad...

Good points. I guess you'd be a better judge than me, but I think for a sports league to be successful the biggest thing it needs is credibility. Do you think the CFL could ever be credible in the US? Would an American football fan from Texas ever agree with (or tolerate) the ratio rules dictating a number of Canadians? How would the average US fan view the widely different production values between the CFL and NFL/NCAA? How could we get them to care about a Grey Cup or cheer for a specific team without any teams in US markets? I think it would be astronomically hard and cost exorbitant money to even have a shot.

I think the CFL's best hope is to continue down a path of partnership with the NFL and find some sort of solution/agreement that the two leagues might be able to work together in some capacities. For example, many CFL fans would loathe to have the CFL become some sort of farm league for the NFL but a system like that would solve the credibility problem the league has down south and would possibly allow the NFL to write some cheques that the CFL could absolutely use. I'm not sure the terms, but that's the only way I see something working down south and I'm not sure what the CFL could offer the NFL (that it doesn't already) to get a deal. Maybe the NFL would just see value in supporting another country being interested in football and having a functional league? I don't really know - and believe me some CFL purists would hate the idea, but I would go for it if it meant a large boost to funding year-over-year and the NFL's committment to the CFL's rules and traditions.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 01:57:31 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
66 Chevelle
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« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2018, 02:27:02 PM »

Good points. I guess you'd be a better judge than me, but I think for a sports league to be successful the biggest thing it needs is credibility. Do you think the CFL could ever be credible in the US? Would an American football fan from Texas ever agree with (or tolerate) the ratio rules dictating a number of Canadians? How would the average US fan view the widely different production values between the CFL and NFL/NCAA? How could we get them to care about a Grey Cup or cheer for a specific team without any teams in US markets? I think it would be astronomically hard and cost exorbitant money to even have a shot.

I think the CFL's best hope is to continue down a path of partnership with the NFL and find some sort of solution/agreement that the two leagues might be able to work together in some capacities. For example, many CFL fans would loathe to have the CFL become some sort of farm league for the NFL but a system like that would solve the credibility problem the league has down south and would possibly allow the NFL to write some cheques that the CFL could absolutely use. I'm not sure the terms, but that's the only way I see something working down south and I'm not sure what the CFL could offer the NFL (that it doesn't already) to get a deal. Maybe the NFL would just see value in supporting another country being interested in football and having a functional league? I don't really know - and believe me some CFL purists would hate the idea, but I would go for it if it meant a large boost to funding year-over-year and the NFL's committment to the CFL's rules and traditions.

here's the way I see it... if you told me there are 30 fans and I had to convert half of them to make it viable, I would probably be beat. However, there is something like 40,000,000 fans and all we have to reach is less than 20,000th of 1 percent of them.  That's a number I can work with... You will run into the die hards that will have a fit and claim it's not football, we don't want them anyway, lol. Then you'll have a portion that is the elder fans, who will claim they've seen it before and they aren't interested. However, most will be too lazy to investigate the differences before hand, and quite honestly, there's no need to tell them there is a difference until you have them watching a game. By this time I've hyped myself up for some football and figure 'what the heck', I'll give it a try. Then, when you actually watch the game you find yourself not really noticing the differences because the game flows without any weird things going on.

I don't like the idea of having the NFL involved because I wouldn't want the impression that it's a lesser game, which would be hard to keep from happening. However, it may be what it takes to get things rolling because I like the idea of the NFL subsidizing the cost. What if an NFL team, or multiple teams, could have an association with a specific CFL team that they could 'park' there young players with that CFL team and have them be able to play live games with live game action in an effort to develop their talent yet be able to retain it at the same time? This could be newly drafted players or young players but during this time the NFL team would pay the CFL for the 'help'.

The NFL channel is a logical spot as well, they have a vested interest to keep football in front of and available to their fan base. As we've talked about, NFL viewership has been slipping, no where near the panic type of slipping, but this could create and keep interest up in their product as well.

The thing that nationwide providers brings to the table that wasn't available years ago is that actual distribution is a lot easier now. Essentially, all you have to do is get one of the large providers to agree to carry the product, because if one has it the other will want it, and you instantly have nationwide coverage and exposure. And since they purchase the rights they are responsible for advertising and promoting the product. All the CFL has to do is provide the product. So they have a large vested interest in making it be successful. Where as before you would have to go to every market and convince a local provider to take programming, yada, yada, yada.... time consuming and expensive for the CFL...

I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I do believe that now is the time to start looking into it. If the XFL does indeed take off they can step and take the spot and the CFL could be the odd man out, so to speak. And if nothing else, it really doesn't cost either party anything to make a few calls and see if there is any interest.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2018, 03:14:04 PM »

Good points. I guess you'd be a better judge than me, but I think for a sports league to be successful the biggest thing it needs is credibility. Do you think the CFL could ever be credible in the US? Would an American football fan from Texas ever agree with (or tolerate) the ratio rules dictating a number of Canadians? How would the average US fan view the widely different production values between the CFL and NFL/NCAA? How could we get them to care about a Grey Cup or cheer for a specific team without any teams in US markets? I think it would be astronomically hard and cost exorbitant money to even have a shot.


you should know this as well as any one, lol....  How many times early on did you have to post 'dude, you really don't understand the Canadian football game' because I didn't notice all that was going on right in front of my eyes, lol...  subtle, it's really subtle... didn't stop me from watching and thinking I knew what was happening, lol..
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bomb squad
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« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2018, 06:05:52 PM »

wanted to give this some thought...

let's say that the CFL and NBC were to partner, the CFL wouldn't have to have a marketing budget because NBC would promote the CFL on there channel, and other NBC owned channels, as it is in their best interest. All the CFL has to do in this scenario would be able to put on games.  There is even opportunity when partnering with this type of sports channel for the CFL to produce additional programming that could be sold to the network as well. In fact, the NBC sports channel could be a good partner as they already carry hockey.  As for the rest of their 'bang up' programming, they carry soccer, rugby, formula one, Ivy League college football, and Notre Dame football, and seasonal Olympic coverage. Tell me that they would not be interested in the CFL.

As far as the CFL line up, I think it is entirely possible for the US viewing audience to be perfectly fine with it. I don't know if you know how the NFL coverage works here, so if you'll indulge me... Living in Missouri, each Sunday I get 4 games, 2 NFC and 2 AFC games. For the AFC games, 1 will be the Chiefs and the other could be anyone, actually. For the NFC games, when the Rams were in St. Louis, we'd get their game and 1 other NFC game. There would be an early and late game and on opposing channels. So basically, I watch the Chiefs and 1 of the other 2, which ever interests me more. Then there is the Sunday night game, Monday night game, and at times a Thursday night game on the NFL channel. All of these games are national games and could be anything.  So, with 32 teams, you get your local market team(s) and then national games.  I tell you this because the way the CFL is currently, all teams would basically become 'local market teams' because we'd be able to see the team of our choice each week, just like I do the Chiefs. There's a chance, though slight, that I may not see a Lions game at all during a season unless they make the playoffs. As of now, if my only option is to watch a Bills/Jets game, I would if that was all that's on, but I wouldn't be excited because it was on.

So, the US viewing public could pick a CFL team as 'their' team and have the advantage of having access to every game that team plays. And again, the CFL starts 3 months earlier than NCAA and NFL so you're 'fishing in a barrel' so to speak. The small league also plays into the favor of the CFL because as a new option it seems more 'manageable' from the stand point of team identification and keeping up with the action as it mirrors a NCAA college conference that has 2 divisions. For example, the SEC, they have 14 teams divided into 2 division. This is the conference my Tigers play in so I watch all the SEC games as first option and follow the SEC more closely than say the PAC 12.

So, the CFL gets the best of both worlds, so to speak. The label of being a 'pro' football team that will have all of the college players coming from the NCAA, like the NFL, and the smaller, cozy size of a NCAA conference. So, in my opinion, it limitations that some may think the CFL has will actually work in the CFL's favor. Because there is 32 teams in the NFL and 120 Div I teams, the current fan now will generally break it down to their favorite team and their conference or division and that is what they will follow religiously. And for example, I would watch the other CFL games last year if I was home, which was most of the time, because it was easy to do.

Again, using me as an example, I didn't know that the rules were different prior to watching my first CFL game. I did know that the field was bigger but that was pretty much where it ended. But as I've said before, the rules in the CFL make sense, one to the other, so it's easier to follow and understand.  I had no idea that CFL was 3 down football, didn't take long to learn that it was though. But, when watching the first time it's not like you have to take a test in order to view, so, you get acclimated to the differences as they happen. And since the differences seem to fit the overall game and the differences as a collective, it's not hard to follow or pick up on. Except the kicking, I still don't understand it all, like a field goal miss and the receiving team kicking it back... but whatever, lol. Plus, NFL fans are generally NCAA fans as well and the two of them have several different rules and penalties as well already, so, we're use to switching gears back and forth. So, there are already things about each of those games I prefer over the other but at the end of the day it doesn't actually impact my enjoyment of watching either.

I know that their have been efforts to do 'stuff' in the past, some with limited success and others with little to no success. But I would be the first to say this, it would be foolish to try and bring the game to the US again as it would not be any more successful here now, than it was before. So you ask, then why would we watch it. The difference is that if you attempted to expand here in the US with actual team placement, a) that would take a lot of money, b) prime markets are already full with generally a pro baseball, basketball, hockey, and or football team already and would be doomed from the start to create a new fan base. The type of thing requires commitment on the part of 1,000's of people for it to succeed and once fans hear of the 'struggling' teams they assume the worse and won't tune in. However, to simply watch games all I have to do is turn on the TV, something I'm already doing now and cost me nothing. With the current teams in the CFL you don't see a struggling league, quite the opposite. It's made of quality players that put on an even better show. Do you think we get games like the one where the Bombers came back from 3 scores down with 1:41 left in the game here in the NFL?  Hell no we don't...

In closing, you all should have to be the ones selling me on the game, not the other way around. If a fan of the NFL, that has been watching NFL games for 40+ years has become this big of fan in less than a year, you'd have to believe that it is entirely possible for others to do the same. Because one of the biggest selling points is you don't have to compete with an existing product, not the NFL or the NCAA. You get a 3 month head start of exclusive meaningful games for the football fan.

Today was national signing day for the NCAA, I've been tracking recruits all day as my football activity for the day... me and 100,000's others... my TV in my office is on the NFL channel all day, most days, even if I'm not watching it, I'm listening to it... I think you guys may undervalue your game just a little, or have been told for so long by the uninformed that it's lesser and you've began to believe it... but's if that's the case, it's not true... from top to bottom the teams are a lot more equal in talent therefore making for more interesting games. When watching games, you don't notice any difference of any size between the talent on the field as opposed to the NFL and is a notch above your NCAA play.

I don't know, I love the CFL and all it's made up of...  The only thing I would like to see happen down the road is to obtain the financial stability to be able to pay players better so that the CFL core player is different than the NFL player and players could sign longer contracts for decent pay and only the occasional loss of a player to the NFL as opposed to now and the worry that all of our good players are headed to the NFL. And I think that's possible. Not everyone would feel like they need to be in the NFL when the payday separates them from let's say, having to have a second job to make it... For some, it's not all about the money, they'd play forever is they made $125,000 a year... even forgo the NFL dream if that dream limits them to a NFL practice squad...

Good stuff, just the bolded part I don't get. Seems to me your already sold on the game and them some. Your assessment of our game and our players is bang on. Any idea to grow the game south of the border is worth serious consideration.  The potential is there and there's so much upside. Your absolutely right, why couldn't there be many, many more you's in USA? It just takes vision, belief, and a lot of effort to make it happen.

Perhaps there's somebody on the inside who could make it happen. You know, an American living in the States who watches the game, gets the game, and understands why so many Canadians are so passionate about it. Somebody who has business acumen, is set, and has a dream and a vision for it down south. Somebody like, ah, well, like you...
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2018, 07:14:44 PM »

Good stuff, just the bolded part I don't get. Seems to me your already sold on the game and them some. Your assessment of our game and our players is bang on. Any idea to grow the game south of the border is worth serious consideration.  The potential is there and there's so much upside. Your absolutely right, why couldn't there be many, many more you's in USA? It just takes vision, belief, and a lot of effort to make it happen.

Perhaps there's somebody on the inside who could make it happen. You know, an American living in the States who watches the game, gets the game, and understands why so many Canadians are so passionate about it. Somebody who has business acumen, is set, and has a dream and a vision for it down south. Somebody like, ah, well, like you...

This would have to happen at the league and network level, it's not a rinky-dink job for a Fuller Brush salesman.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #100 on: February 09, 2018, 01:46:21 AM »

Good stuff, just the bolded part I don't get. Seems to me your already sold on the game and them some. Your assessment of our game and our players is bang on. Any idea to grow the game south of the border is worth serious consideration.  The potential is there and there's so much upside. Your absolutely right, why couldn't there be many, many more you's in USA? It just takes vision, belief, and a lot of effort to make it happen.

Perhaps there's somebody on the inside who could make it happen. You know, an American living in the States who watches the game, gets the game, and understands why so many Canadians are so passionate about it. Somebody who has business acumen, is set, and has a dream and a vision for it down south. Somebody like, ah, well, like you...


the bold part was related to me feeling like I had to sell how good and marketable the CFL game is to some around here when you would think it would have been them trying to sell me on the idea... just a little poke of fun...

But thanks for the vote of confidence, part of what I've done in my career was process improvement and automation thru strategic partnerships with those in the private sector and the development of hardware/software applications and their implementation...  maybe I'll send the CFL a resume, lol...
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #101 on: February 09, 2018, 01:47:00 AM »

This would have to happen at the league and network level, it's not a rinky-dink job for a Fuller Brush salesman.

surely you aren't referring to me...
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #102 on: February 09, 2018, 02:26:13 AM »

surely you aren't referring to me...

No, I was using an analogy.  Unless you made your money selling Fuller Brushes, then it is about you.
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jeremy q public
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« Reply #103 on: February 09, 2018, 06:37:53 PM »

the bold part was related to me feeling like I had to sell how good and marketable the CFL game is to some around here when you would think it would have been them trying to sell me on the idea... just a little poke of fun...

But thanks for the vote of confidence, part of what I've done in my career was process improvement and automation thru strategic partnerships with those in the private sector and the development of hardware/software applications and their implementation...  maybe I'll send the CFL a resume, lol...

What you're encountering here is probably some good ol' Canadian humility, AKA a complete lack of self-confidence. We're fully aware that the US is the big boy on the block, the NFL is the premium league, etc. so we tend to downplay the good things we have, across the board, to a fault. We assume no American is gonna watch the CFL, even when talking to an American who watches the CFL.  Grin

Some of your ideas I don't see happening, like tying teams together across the two leagues. But I could see a partnership between the TV networks and the two leagues working. You're certainly right about the demographics, we need to keep in mind how many people we're talking about here. For every Canadian football fan like me, who's only gonna watch their local team on tv, it's possible there's at least one American football fan who's gonna watch as much football as they can find. That means we could potentially double our tv market, which would add significant strength and resilience to the league.

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« Reply #104 on: February 09, 2018, 08:14:47 PM »

What you're encountering here is probably some good ol' Canadian humility, AKA a complete lack of self-confidence. We're fully aware that the US is the big boy on the block, the NFL is the premium league, etc. so we tend to downplay the good things we have, across the board, to a fault. We assume no American is gonna watch the CFL, even when talking to an American who watches the CFL.  Grin

Some of your ideas I don't see happening, like tying teams together across the two leagues. But I could see a partnership between the TV networks and the two leagues working. You're certainly right about the demographics, we need to keep in mind how many people we're talking about here. For every Canadian football fan like me, who's only gonna watch their local team on tv, it's possible there's at least one American football fan who's gonna watch as much football as they can find. That means we could potentially double our tv market, which would add significant strength and resilience to the league.

I would think that ratio would have to be at least 10-1 to garner the attention of a US based network.  Anything is possible within a huge viewing market-place even niches can be sizeable.  The Shopping Channel has been broadcasting for at least 25 years so somebody out there must be watching it.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #105 on: February 09, 2018, 09:07:06 PM »

What you're encountering here is probably some good ol' Canadian humility, AKA a complete lack of self-confidence. We're fully aware that the US is the big boy on the block, the NFL is the premium league, etc. so we tend to downplay the good things we have, across the board, to a fault. We assume no American is gonna watch the CFL, even when talking to an American who watches the CFL.  Grin

Some of your ideas I don't see happening, like tying teams together across the two leagues. But I could see a partnership between the TV networks and the two leagues working. You're certainly right about the demographics, we need to keep in mind how many people we're talking about here. For every Canadian football fan like me, who's only gonna watch their local team on tv, it's possible there's at least one American football fan who's gonna watch as much football as they can find. That means we could potentially double our tv market, which would add significant strength and resilience to the league.



I appreciate your honestly on the humility thing, I get that...  and I'm not a fan of having any direct association with the NFL, just spit balling...
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #106 on: February 09, 2018, 09:08:37 PM »

I would think that ratio would have to be at least 10-1 to garner the attention of a US based network.  Anything is possible within a huge viewing market-place even niches can be sizeable.  The Shopping Channel has been broadcasting for at least 25 years so somebody out there must be watching it.

it's not like they wear big patches on their uniform indicating national vs. import... it took me forever to remember who is what, lol... and since they don't really talk about it much during the games I don't think most will realize there is a ratio...
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #107 on: February 09, 2018, 09:29:04 PM »

it's not like they wear big patches on their uniform indicating national vs. import... it took me forever to remember who is what, lol... and since they don't really talk about it much during the games I don't think most will realize there is a ratio...

Not that ratio, the ratio of viewers mentioned in the previous post.  I believe a US Network would expect to attract a viewing audience at least 10 times larger than TSN currently reaches in order for the CFL to be worth taking on.  That would equate to 5- 10 million viewers per game, which is peanuts down there.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #108 on: February 09, 2018, 09:56:00 PM »

Not that ratio, the ratio of viewers mentioned in the previous post.  I believe a US Network would expect to attract a viewing audience at least 10 times larger than TSN currently reaches in order for the CFL to be worth taking on.  That would equate to 5- 10 million viewers per game, which is peanuts down there.

my bad... I thought you were referring to the other.... all you have to get would be less than one half of one half of 1% of the current NFL veiwership to exceed today's numbers... that shouldn't be too big a hurdle, giving the quality of the product... also, since you're not attempting to convert them to an entirely different sport as well...
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« Reply #109 on: February 10, 2018, 05:02:37 PM »

there shouldn't be any reason why the CFL couldn't perform as well and have as big of draw as a college conference does here in the states. And no, I know that there isn't enough interest north to support it, so don't even go there. However, if the CFL were to do something similar to what the SEC did, create their own channel/network, with proper marketing I believe they could pull similar numbers. You have to remember that the majority of the SEC viewership is the south east portion of the states. While the CFL wouldn't be as concentrated it could pull viewership from all states.  Here's the kind of money the SEC Conference pulled in 2016-17 fiscal year, and this excludes ticket sales and direct university revenues, this is just the conference for redistribution...

From RockMNation.com


    "The SEC generated $596.9 million in revenue for the 2016-17 fiscal year and distributed an average of approximately $40.9 million to 14 members, the league announced Thursday.

    The average distribution from the league does not include bowl revenue retained by participating schools, which totals $23.1 million. The SEC?s payout for the most recent fiscal year, which ended Aug. 31, represents a slight increase from fiscal year 2015-16, when the league generated $584.2 million and distributed approximately $40.4 million to its members, excluding bowl money. [...]

    The SEC currently distributes the most revenue, on average, to its members. The Big Ten is second after distributing $34.8 million to its fully vested members in its 2016 fiscal year, the most recent to be reported."


and before all of the Debbie Doubters say it's not possible, image if they could secure just half of this, $20M per team... you could raise the SMS to $20M and they, each team, could keep the $30M they already generate for operating expense. This would mean that the entry level salary could be somewhere around $200K-$225K, enough to get and keep talented players. If you can pay a player like that, there is less interest to go south, some may even have no interest, who knows...

SEC Network is carried on DirecTV, Dish, Cox, Google Fiber, and then select games are carried on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, and some regular Networks. If the NFL Network, which would be another prime candidate to carry additional programming, can keep year round viewership, just think what they could do program wise if they had the CFL to fill in the non stop reruns of daily programming they do now.

Someone with vision needs to be running this league...

ts simple enough Americans love football more than Canadians love hockey. Why else would DIV I colleges have stadiums in the 60-100k capacity. That would be like having 30,000 - 40,000 seat NHL rinks in 20 Canadian cities.........For the record  some of the more successful smaller DIV I schools still play in 30,000 seat football stadiums.....
Some college football athletes believe they should be paid more than full scholarships to play football because of the amount of money made by some of the more successful teams. A team like Alabama had a 47 million profit in 2016 and if you divided that profit evenly among say 100 players (a lot of college teams have huge rosters) thats $470,000/year to each player.  A full scholarship per athlete at Alabama would be worth aprox $45,316/yr for an out of state player.

Now Im guessing based on the Alabama example their profits are probably based on after paying scholarships but if its before than that is still like making $424,684 off of each player.....technically some kids are getting their full college education and housing for free so that should be fair enough right? Some of these kids land up being a manager of a Walmart in some rural town in the USA after their careers are done or even being a Frito Lay chip guy (still making a good living wage)
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« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2018, 05:32:46 AM »

Chevelle

First let me commend you on your efforts and love of he game.

I agree with your general premise that the league should increase revenues and look at the US market.

I think you have made several good points as have others pro and contrary.

Consider a few other things. This is not a new thought.  In 1909 Hamilton played Ottawa in New York City to 15,000 fans (more than most games for US franchises during the 1990s).  Throughout the 50?s there was a half a dozen or so games in the US, then later in the 90s and you are aware of the attempted US expansion.

Even when there were US teams, especially to southern teams, Memphis and Birmingham,  there was limited local interest and little television interest. Is this because it was not well marketed or because there was no interest because it was not American? While you appreciate the football i?m Not sure there is a large enough population that think the same way.  Perhaps it is time to check as you indicated there is little or no capital expenditures required and the timing may be right.

While ESPN has notably most recently been involved, NBC broadcasted games and the playoffs in the early 50?s until the AFL came along. Then there was nothing until the 1980?s when the CFL was broadcast on NBC during the NFL player?s strike.  Subsequently there have been agreements and the games were broadcast on America One, NBCSN, ESPN, NFL network, etc.  Sporadic games were televised by using Canadian feeds.  No full season was close to televised.  

Perhaps a better long term CFL strategy is needed (including an earlier season and lower fees to televise more games etc).  But really there needs to be an effort by a US network. Who will commit and take the risk?  Right now the cfl seems to be treated as filler programming.  Espn has the rights for a little while longer and or do not see any changes.
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