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theaardvark
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« on: January 09, 2018, 05:37:34 PM »

Ask O'Shea and Hall, that's roughly the average number of plays per game they have been getting. My guess is because one (Corney) is only good on a small percentage of plays, and the other (Thomas) does not have the wind to play more. The 2nd one has been the knock on Thomas for his whole career Aards, it's not a new development and it is one that he has not shown the ability to overcome.

Odd that he plays ST then,  where he has to head downfield at a much less than pedestrian pace...  and does so quite effectively.
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GCn18
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 05:57:35 PM »

Odd that he plays ST then,  where he has to head downfield at a much less than pedestrian pace...  and does so quite effectively.

Nothing odd about it at all. It's the primary reason we have him under contract. His defensive reps are just a bonus.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 06:00:40 PM by GCn17 » Logged

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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 06:01:01 PM »

I don't think Jake Thomas doesn't have the 'wind' to compete, he's a hard worker who probably doesn't get more tired than other professional athletes. The main knock on him is at the CFL level, against professional lineman, he's a middling talent. I think that's that. 
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GCn18
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 06:09:21 PM »

I don't think Jake Thomas doesn't have the 'wind' to compete, he's a hard worker who probably doesn't get more tired than other professional athletes. The main knock on him is at the CFL level, against professional lineman, he's a middling talent. I think that's that. 

MOS himself, a couple years back, alluded to the fact that Thomas's conditioning wasn't conducive to seeing a lot of reps on defence and that he was better coming off the bench occasionally.

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the paw
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 06:11:22 PM »

I don't think Jake Thomas doesn't have the 'wind' to compete, he's a hard worker who probably doesn't get more tired than other professional athletes. The main knock on him is at the CFL level, against professional lineman, he's a middling talent. I think that's that. 

I would refine this a little further.  I think Fatboi makes plays, but to make plays with his natural talent level, he has to go balls to the wall berzerker.  You can only give that extra burst so many times a game, and this is why he is highly effective in limited use, but drops off dramatically if he is over-used.  

I want us to sign him, i think we need to sign him.  But that doesn't mean we need to oversell him as starter material.  
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 06:14:53 PM »

Yes, and rightfully so. Thomas can be seen sucking an oxygen mask if he is on for more than a couple plays in a row, and Corney is awful against the run.

I agree but I was speaking about Aard's claim about STARTING 8 Canadians. We don't have 8 starting quality Canadians. We were hard pressed to find 7 that were at least average. Rotating in 3 different players at times is not the same as that impression he tried to give. Hurl often came out which required one of the others to come on.

I see Laing has re-signed now leaving only Laurent as a potential DL free agent Canadian.  I don't really see him coming to the Bombers. There aren't going to be many starting quality Canadians hitting free agency that will help us.

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GCn18
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 06:17:14 PM »

I agree but I was speaking about Aard's claim about STARTING 8 Canadians. We don't have 8 starting quality Canadians. We were hard pressed to find 7 that were at least average.

Right now, as it stands, we do not have 8 starting NAT players unless we seriously want to compromise the competitiveness of our team. Right now I don't even count 7.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 06:18:48 PM by GCn17 » Logged

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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2018, 06:22:07 PM »

I would refine this a little further.  I think Fatboi makes plays, but to make plays with his natural talent level, he has to go balls to the wall berzerker.  You can only give that extra burst so many times a game, and this is why he is highly effective in limited use, but drops off dramatically if he is over-used.  

I want us to sign him, i think we need to sign him.  But that doesn't mean we need to oversell him as starter material.  

That description is fine with me. Still sounds like a talent issue to me though.
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booch
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2018, 06:26:01 PM »

I don't really notice him (Thomas) on special teams...what unit was he on even?..I would assume field goals and possible punt as a down lineman..which makes sense as he is a bit more athletic than a 330 pound lineman.

I think I seen him as one of the mid depth guys on kick returns as I believe he fielded one before...but thats more or less to absorb a block and truthfully there are a number of guys who can fill that role at an entry level salary.

Corney as well gets more than minimal reps and last half of season was on the field significantly more than Thomas...and in multiple roles in specific schemes..much more value and upside now and just a tad more athletic..lol

Ekakite I am pretty sure can take on more of a role this year and with Corney, a possible draft pick/free agency signing I can see Thomas expendable...thanks for the service but at times you move on..I think his time is now as he is what he is and has topped off...Corney and Ekakite haven't...and are better options moving forward.

If Jake and any of our other cast-offs sign elsewhere to find significant reps then awesome for them...but they may not either and that is telling.

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theaardvark
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2018, 08:40:36 PM »

Nothing odd about it at all. It's the primary reason we have him under contract. His defensive reps are just a bonus.

OK, I'm confused.  Is it that he doesn't have the wind to play more, or he is a ST player / backup DL.  Because if he can play ST, he must have wind... especially if he ends up taking a DL rep after a kick...
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booch
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2018, 08:44:27 PM »

special teams is one play....starter reps on defense can be anywhere from 1 play to all plays during a series....a big difference
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kkc60
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2018, 10:43:18 PM »

I had the same thought but was told that it's too early to be having this discussion. 
Oh get over yourself. I said it was a little too soon to know what they want out of Younger, because we haven't seen his effect on the position he's coaching. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. Discuss whatyou want, but don't get butt hurt if someone disagrees
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kkc60
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2018, 10:48:53 PM »

I don't really notice him (Thomas) on special teams...what unit was he on even?..I would assume field goals and possible punt as a down lineman..which makes sense as he is a bit more athletic than a 330 pound lineman.

I think I seen him as one of the mid depth guys on kick returns as I believe he fielded one before...but thats more or less to absorb a block and truthfully there are a number of guys who can fill that role at an entry level salary.

Corney as well gets more than minimal reps and last half of season was on the field significantly more than Thomas...and in multiple roles in specific schemes..much more value and upside now and just a tad more athletic..lol

Ekakite I am pretty sure can take on more of a role this year and with Corney, a possible draft pick/free agency signing I can see Thomas expendable...thanks for the service but at times you move on..I think his time is now as he is what he is and has topped off...Corney and Ekakite haven't...and are better options moving forward.

If Jake and any of our other cast-offs sign elsewhere to find significant reps then awesome for them...but they may not either and that is telling.


He was in the wedge on kick return. The down field running aards referred to is really short lived. Essentially, block whoever is closest. If you run too fast, you can whiff on blocks and accidentally hold a guy. I love love love Thomas. He's the type of guy all winning teams have. But, Westerman is more important. Westerman plays way more defence and does it at a higher level. Thomas, while being a great rotational piece, is a rotational piece. And for his special teams, Spooner or Couture can also be on the wedge. Thomas is essentially our Michael Atkinson
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GCn18
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2018, 08:08:02 AM »

OK, I'm confused.  Is it that he doesn't have the wind to play more, or he is a ST player / backup DL.  Because if he can play ST, he must have wind... especially if he ends up taking a DL rep after a kick...

Clearly you are confused...that is no secret. Thomas plays a blocking role on the teams. The wind needed is minimal. Run a few yards and throw a block. You talk about him like hes our gunner.
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kkc60
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2018, 01:35:46 PM »

OK, I'm confused.  Is it that he doesn't have the wind to play more, or he is a ST player / backup DL.  Because if he can play ST, he must have wind... especially if he ends up taking a DL rep after a kick...
You are confused. Also, the odds of him taking a DL rep after a kick return is pretty minimal unless we fumble it.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2018, 04:11:19 PM »

You are confused. Also, the odds of him taking a DL rep after a kick return is pretty minimal unless we fumble it.

But after playing on the kick team, doesn't our D go onto the field?

You are confused. Also, the odds of him taking a DL rep after a kick return is pretty minimal unless we fumble it.

Sorry, but he does a heck of a lot more than make a block and then stand around.  It is not unusual to see him where the ball ends up, in the pile... 
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the paw
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2018, 04:16:27 PM »

But after playing on the kick team, doesn't our D go onto the field?

Sorry, but he does a heck of a lot more than make a block and then stand around.  It is not unusual to see him where the ball ends up, in the pile... 

He plays in the wedge, when we are returning the kick.  When we return the kick, we normally send our offence out on to the field.
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kkc60
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2018, 04:41:48 PM »

But after playing on the kick team, doesn't our D go onto the field?

Sorry, but he does a heck of a lot more than make a block and then stand around.  It is not unusual to see him where the ball ends up, in the pile... 
Jake Thomas isnt on kickoff. Hes on kick return. Unless you think hes on punt return or punt. He isnt. Yeah, hes in the pile. Thanks for twisting my words. When I played HS football and Rifles, I was always on the wedge. You never run full speed unless you have a guy lined up to you. You make sure your returner has the ball, and I have seen our wedge hold hands to keep the wedge together. Essentially, stay somewhat in front of the reutrner until a hole opens up. Of course you run, but its without a doubt the lightest STs cardio wise. You really just need a big guy in the middle of it. Chris Greaves did what Thomas does when he was on the Esks (not saying we should sign him)
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2018, 04:52:42 PM »

But after playing on the kick team, doesn't our D go onto the field?

Sorry, but he does a heck of a lot more than make a block and then stand around.  It is not unusual to see him where the ball ends up, in the pile... 

It's fascinating to watch your annual off-season tangent play out. This year, it all started with someone disagreeing with your opinion that Thomas was a must-sign. Your double, triple, quadruple downing on your original statement has reached its inevitable conclusion: He's always in the pile on special teams! He's blocking on the teams with incredible speed and haste! He's a must-have piece on the defensive line! He's way more effective than 12 plays a game! Thomas is a great run stopper!

The dude is a rotational player who's had five sacks in his last 52 games. He had a decent year last year but come on.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2018, 05:11:08 PM »

It's fascinating to watch your annual off-season tangent play out. This year, it all started with someone disagreeing with your opinion that Thomas was a must-sign. Your double, triple, quadruple downing on your original statement has reached its inevitable conclusion: He's always in the pile on special teams! He's blocking on the teams with incredible speed and haste! He's a must-have piece on the defensive line! He's way more effective than 12 plays a game! Thomas is a great run stopper!

The dude is a rotational player who's had five sacks in his last 52 games. He had a decent year last year but come on.

Like clockwork every single year.

Jake Thomas is a reliable rotational NAT player. The end.
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2018, 01:40:07 AM »

Like clockwork every single year.

Jake Thomas is a reliable rotational NAT player. The end.

Agree, Jake is a great asset and improved this year.  While he rotates, he can start.  Great part of the club.  These guys are what make good CFL team tick.  Not all have to be top players but for a Canadian, Jake is solid and reliable and not likely that expensive.

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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2018, 01:41:14 AM »

It's fascinating to watch your annual off-season tangent play out. This year, it all started with someone disagreeing with your opinion that Thomas was a must-sign. Your double, triple, quadruple downing on your original statement has reached its inevitable conclusion: He's always in the pile on special teams! He's blocking on the teams with incredible speed and haste! He's a must-have piece on the defensive line! He's way more effective than 12 plays a game! Thomas is a great run stopper!

The dude is a rotational player who's had five sacks in his last 52 games. He had a decent year last year but come on.

THIS  Huh Roll Eyes Tongue
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2018, 02:50:26 PM »

Agree, Jake is a great asset and improved this year.  While he rotates, he can start.  Great part of the club.  These guys are what make good CFL team tick.  Not all have to be top players but for a Canadian, Jake is solid and reliable and not likely that expensive.



He can't start and it's been stated repeatedly.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2018, 03:13:56 PM »

He can't start and it's been stated repeatedly.

OK, lets qualify what "start" means.

Our DLine rotates.  No player plays every down.  Ever.  On the DC, there are "4 starters" listed, but they do not take every down.  They may not even take the majority of downs, depending on situation.

So who is a "starter".  The one who takes the majority of the snaps? 

Thomas can play.  He did at a good level, in the situations he was called upon to fill.  He can balance the ratio when he goes in.

His is not a position that would ever be called upon to play every down.  He needs to play the downs he is needed on, and play effectively in those situations.  Which he did last year. 

Oh, and after Westerman went out, and before Neufeld came in for Bond, Thomas was, in fact, listed as a "starter" on DLine...
I've never said he is a "starter", I maintain that he is an important member of a 7 man DLine rotation. 
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2018, 03:37:03 PM »

OK, lets qualify what "start" means.

Our DLine rotates.  No player plays every down.  Ever.  On the DC, there are "4 starters" listed, but they do not take every down.  They may not even take the majority of downs, depending on situation.

So who is a "starter".  The one who takes the majority of the snaps? 

Thomas can play.  He did at a good level, in the situations he was called upon to fill.  He can balance the ratio when he goes in.

His is not a position that would ever be called upon to play every down.  He needs to play the downs he is needed on, and play effectively in those situations.  Which he did last year. 

Oh, and after Westerman went out, and before Neufeld came in for Bond, Thomas was, in fact, listed as a "starter" on DLine...
I've never said he is a "starter", I maintain that he is an important member of a 7 man DLine rotation. 

A necessary member of the DL rotation due to ratio and nothing more. Are you related to him or something with this continuing push of his importance?
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theaardvark
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2018, 03:46:06 PM »

A necessary member of the DL rotation due to ratio and nothing more. Are you related to him or something with this continuing push of his importance?

You think he's part of the rotation soley due to passport?  You don't think that he contributes at all with his play?  You don't think that he is a competent DT?  I'm not saying he's the next Doug Brown, but he is effective in the job he does.  His passport means he gets a little more money, like and Nat vet on the AR.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2018, 03:46:48 PM »

A necessary member of the DL rotation due to ratio and nothing more. Are you related to him or something with this continuing push of his importance?
Aards just really likes ?glue guys?. I believe he?s also a big Matt Hendricks fan  Cheesy
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the paw
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2018, 04:31:00 PM »

OK, lets qualify what "start" means.

Our DLine rotates.  No player plays every down.  Ever.  On the DC, there are "4 starters" listed, but they do not take every down.  They may not even take the majority of downs, depending on situation.

So who is a "starter".  The one who takes the majority of the snaps? 

Thomas can play.  He did at a good level, in the situations he was called upon to fill.  He can balance the ratio when he goes in.

His is not a position that would ever be called upon to play every down.  He needs to play the downs he is needed on, and play effectively in those situations.  Which he did last year. 

Oh, and after Westerman went out, and before Neufeld came in for Bond, Thomas was, in fact, listed as a "starter" on DLine...
I've never said he is a "starter", I maintain that he is an important member of a 7 man DLine rotation. 

Please stop.  I am a big Jake Thomas fan, and with all your hyperbole, rationalization, and rhetorical gymnastics, you are just inciting people to be more critical of Thomas than he deserves, simply so they can blow up your argument.

Jake Thomas is a good rotational DT, who can't play heavy rotation, but can do very well in limited snaps on D.  He can also chip in by blocking in the wedge, being an emergency OG, and filling out the Jumbo package.  I hope we re-sign him. 
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2018, 05:06:16 PM »

You think he's part of the rotation soley due to passport?  You don't think that he contributes at all with his play?  You don't think that he is a competent DT?  I'm not saying he's the next Doug Brown, but he is effective in the job he does.  His passport means he gets a little more money, like and Nat vet on the AR.

You answered your own question. If he was an import he wouldn't make it out of TC.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2018, 05:31:16 PM »

You think he's part of the rotation soley due to passport?  You don't think that he contributes at all with his play?  You don't think that he is a competent DT?  I'm not saying he's the next Doug Brown, but he is effective in the job he does.  His passport means he gets a little more money, like and Nat vet on the AR.

Yes. Absolutely, positively yes. If here were not a NAT, he likely wouldn't even be in football.

But you apparently have no issue with the Bombers parting ways with Westerman, a far more effective and talented NAT player. Huh
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booch
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2018, 06:39:55 PM »

He is totally a part of the rotation due to his passport....and was listed as a starter because we had noting else we could do ratio wise.

Any guy can rotate in, but whats the quality of their reps when in...sure he makes some plays...any player will from time to time on the filed..that's a given.
But also if you studied plays...you will see more times than not he isn't much of a factor, and we can/could definitely do better. He gets excessive reps, and he falls right off the table production wise. Not something that I want in my 1A Canadian rotation guy who prob will be making a decent salary this year.

He lacks versatility as well...A guy like Corney now plays inside..and on the edge...and is excellent on any of the ST's...has more value...more upside...hasn't peaked yet.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2018, 07:11:12 PM »

Please stop.  I am a big Jake Thomas fan, and with all your hyperbole, rationalization, and rhetorical gymnastics, you are just inciting people to be more critical of Thomas than he deserves, simply so they can blow up your argument.

Jake Thomas is a good rotational DT, who can't play heavy rotation, but can do very well in limited snaps on D.  He can also chip in by blocking in the wedge, being an emergency OG, and filling out the Jumbo package.  I hope we re-sign him. 

Which is exactly what I've said...
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theaardvark
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2018, 07:15:43 PM »

He is totally a part of the rotation due to his passport....and was listed as a starter because we had noting else we could do ratio wise.

Any guy can rotate in, but whats the quality of their reps when in...sure he makes some plays...any player will from time to time on the filed..that's a given.
But also if you studied plays...you will see more times than not he isn't much of a factor, and we can/could definitely do better. He gets excessive reps, and he falls right off the table production wise. Not something that I want in my 1A Canadian rotation guy who prob will be making a decent salary this year.

He lacks versatility as well...A guy like Corney now plays inside..and on the edge...and is excellent on any of the ST's...has more value...more upside...hasn't peaked yet.


The rotation of Thomas and Corney is very effective.  Faith could possibly take Thomas' spot, sure, and rotate the same way. 

Yes. Absolutely, positively yes. If here were not a NAT, he likely wouldn't even be in football.

But you apparently have no issue with the Bombers parting ways with Westerman, a far more effective and talented NAT player. Huh

I don't want the Bombers to lose Westerman, I just can't see them paying what someone else is willing to.  And they shouldn't, not with the talent we have in Jeffcoat and Ok, who are younger, cheaper and better.  As other people have noted, spending SMS dollars on other positions that make for a better return on investment.  Love Westerman, but I just have a feeling he's going to be too costly.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2018, 07:55:39 PM »

Which is exactly what I've said...

No it isn't. Not even close
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bunker
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2018, 12:41:01 AM »

The rotation of Thomas and Corney is very effective.  Faith could possibly take Thomas' spot, sure, and rotate the same way. 

I don't want the Bombers to lose Westerman, I just can't see them paying what someone else is willing to.  And they shouldn't, not with the talent we have in Jeffcoat and Ok, who are younger, cheaper and better.  As other people have noted, spending SMS dollars on other positions that make for a better return on investment.  Love Westerman, but I just have a feeling he's going to be too costly.
To make the ratio work without Westerman, it sounds like you are suggesting that one of Thomas, Corney or Faith be on the field at all times. IMO that seriously downgrades our D-line, on a defense that was already one of the worst in the league. I would try to sign Westerman for next year, with the hope that Faith and Corney improve enough to make him expendable next year.

The problem I think we are running into is that our SMS is stretched too thin, due to too few talented Americans on cheap entry level contracts. Unless our scouting improves, the problem will continue.
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kkc60
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2018, 01:31:56 AM »

To make the ratio work without Westerman, it sounds like you are suggesting that one of Thomas, Corney or Faith be on the field at all times. IMO that seriously downgrades our D-line, on a defense that was already one of the worst in the league. I would try to sign Westerman for next year, with the hope that Faith and Corney improve enough to make him expendable next year.

The problem I think we are running into is that our SMS is stretched too thin, due to too few talented Americans on cheap entry level contracts. Unless our scouting improves, the problem will continue.
Thats an interesting take and makes a ton of sense. All our impact Americans are on expensive deals. Sure, they are good players but they cost a pretty penny more than guys our scouts find
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2018, 01:46:11 AM »

He can't start and it's been stated repeatedly.

While he wouldn't be a starter for many games and someone we would ideally have in this role without rotation for an extended time, he can start in a pinch.  I won't debate that he has some limitations and consistency issues, he could start if we have injury problems.  He showed progress last year and I think he will continue to do so, even if it's in small ways.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2018, 02:35:13 PM »

To make the ratio work without Westerman, it sounds like you are suggesting that one of Thomas, Corney or Faith be on the field at all times. IMO that seriously downgrades our D-line, on a defense that was already one of the worst in the league. I would try to sign Westerman for next year, with the hope that Faith and Corney improve enough to make him expendable next year.

The problem I think we are running into is that our SMS is stretched too thin, due to too few talented Americans on cheap entry level contracts. Unless our scouting improves, the problem will continue.

I disagree about the SMS stretched to thin. We had enough SMS left to sign 9 or 10 of our potential free agents. Very likely several of those high value players got up front money from 2017 SMS money.

Every team has some very expensive import talent on their roster. Bombers are no different in that regard. Certainly finding some young imports that do well helps balance the overall roster from top to bottom. That helps align depth but it's always a gamble.

You could look at the Lions that had Elimimian, Arceneaux, Lulay, Burnam and Williams for example and still managed to finish 5th.

How about the Als? Cox, Hebert, Bowman, Lewis, Durant to name a few.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 02:38:07 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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