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Author Topic: Walters Interview With TSN?s Naylor  (Read 3340 times)
Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2018, 04:05:49 PM »

One thing Walters admitted was that we weren?t good enough in the SF against Edmonton who dominated us even though the final score was relatively close.   The score flattered us and we scored our last TD and two point conversion on the last play of the game.  We can blame injuries et al but injuries are part of football.  A player like Wilder in TO was a back up to Whitaker and when Whitaker was injured Wilder dominated and lead them to a Grey Cup.  Our time to win the Cup is now because Harris isn?t going to last forever and expecting another season like the one he just had would be a long shot....maybe he has it in him and I hope he does.  This will be the 5th season under this management and anything short of actually being in the GC imho would be a failure.   As was stated by other posters, teams have gone from last to first in one season with Ottawa and TO being the most recent.   Yes we have a good nucleus and a QB that has the makings of a winner....but he can?t do it by himself and he needs a defence to help him out when he?s misfiring.   The comment Walters made about MOS?s relationship sounds to me like we may be in for another season of bend over but don?t break defence.   That defence was on display in vivid technicolor in the SF and unless we see some marked improvement defensively our chances for a Cup are perhaps delusional.   If we sign Hurl again expect more of the same.
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" Leo Lewis was the best player I ever coached, on either side of the border"!

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theaardvark
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« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2018, 04:14:47 PM »

You don't understand the difference in finding an entry level contact player like Zylstra as a rookie compared to signing a free agent veteran for $180K.

It doesn't take a football genius to sign proven CFL veterans for big contracts.

I certainly understand the difference.  The ELC is the cornerstone of SMS management.  The more ELC's you can have in place, the more FA deals you can sign...

But ELC's aren't just on your own recruited players, they can also be on players you sign from other teams.  Like Adams, Randle...  JFG, Nichols.. their first WBB contracts did not break the bank.  

Interesting thing about entry level players, like Walker or Zylstra... the window is very short on that ELC.  And if they sign a second contract, its going to be for a lot more.

There are quite a number of players still suiting up in the CFL that came though the WBB.  A heck of a lot more than there were 5 years ago.  Players that signed elsewhere because we had younger, cheaper replacements available, and could move on.  

Of the current FA pool alone, Greaves, Donny O, Brandon Stewart, Willy, Dan West, Bass, Lirim H, Johnny Sears, Kohlert, Woodson, Johnny Adams, Hunt, Muamba (2), Moore, Turner all are former WBB who have been replaced by better/younger/cheaper players.  

Keeping proven veterans around on affordable contracts, that's just as hard a job... and every bit as important.  Medlock, Bryant, Dressler, Nichols... all are on decent deals.  Not screaming ELC bargains, but fair deals.  No $250k Henoc deals..  no $500k+ Collaros deals...  

Walters has shown himself to be resourceful yet responsible in his contracts.  He's walked away from players that the contracts just did not make sense for the role they were going to play...  and he's stepped up to make sure we didn't lose key pieces.  The fact we have so much stability on the oline is amazing.  Getting our Nats under 3 year contracts to start and then extending them, well done.  

That's what builds a 11-7, 12-6 team.  And hopefully it continues to get better.

One thing Walters admitted was that we weren?t good enough in the SF against Edmonton who dominated us even though the final score was relatively close.   The score flattered us and we scored our last TD and two point conversion on the last play of the game.  We can blame injuries et al but injuries are part of football.  A player like Wilder in TO was a back up to Whitaker and when Whitaker was injured Wilder dominated and lead them to a Grey Cup.  Our time to win the Cup is now because Harris isn?t going to last forever and expecting another season like the one he just had would be a long shot....maybe he has it in him and I hope he does.  This will be the 5th season under this management and anything short of actually being in the GC imho would be a failure.   As was stated by other posters, teams have gone from last to first in one season with Ottawa and TO being the most recent.   Yes we have a good nucleus and a QB that has the makings of a winner....but he can?t do it by himself and he needs a defence to help him out when he?s misfiring.   The comment Walters made about MOS?s relationship sounds to me like we may be in for another season of bend over but don?t break defence.   That defence was on display in vivid technicolor in the SF and unless we see some marked improvement defensively our chances for a Cup are perhaps delusional.   If we sign Hurl again expect more of the same.

Injuries are a part of football.  But your QB having a broken finger plus other issues, losing you top Nat rush end, your all star SAM LB and your top receiver?  That's not "part of football", that's extremely bad luck.

If any 2 of those players were healthy, I'd conjecture we would have been in the GC...
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2018, 04:39:17 PM »

I agree that we had bad luck near the end of the season and very good luck until 3/4 through the season.  Edmonton had far more injuries than most early on and got healthy late in the season and against us.  Losing Legget was very unfortunate as he was definitely an impact player and he would have likely made a difference had he been playing.   The fact is and my point was specifically targeted at our defensive schemes which Edmonton exploited after we attempted that fake punt from the 26 YL.   It was painful to watch after that.  For us to win it all which is really the point of this whole discussion....we need to improve defensively to help Nichols out or we will not advance to the Grey Cup.  My observation based only on the interview was that MOS has a good working relationship with Hall who is responsible as DC for our defensive strategy and philosophy.   Perhaps MOS will interject more this season and instill some of his killer instincts in our D....I certainly hope so because if not we?re not likely to advance to the dance!
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the paw
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« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2018, 05:32:14 PM »

Aren't you sensing a theme to with those names? They are mostly linemen. Foketi, Alexander and Walker are all a little bit of a reach to say "not bad" considering they have either hardly played or proven very little in their first season. Look at Calgary and how much of their roster was found via scouting

Well, the game is won and lost in the trenches, so signing linemen is not a bad thing.  And while Foketi hasn't had much playing time, its because he has been behind two durable guys who hit all-star status, but the team still extended him on the strength of practice habits.

I see Alexander and Walker as two good DB's who are just green.  Walker is only 21 years old for goodness' sake.  The fact that they were both thrown into starting positions, rotated among 3 different secondary positions, and played on the same side is not on them, it's a function of coaching and circumstance.  You can't put that on the scouting. 

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement.  But I get a little tired of all the posts with wildly unrealistic expectations which cherry-pick an example like Zylstra and then poor mouth solid finds like Poop Johnson because they aren't Armando Sewell.  Reasonable and balanced criticism is legitimate, but constant and pervasive cynicism is toxic. 
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kkc60
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« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2018, 05:52:02 PM »

Well, the game is won and lost in the trenches, so signing linemen is not a bad thing.  And while Foketi hasn't had much playing time, its because he has been behind two durable guys who hit all-star status, but the team still extended him on the strength of practice habits.

I see Alexander and Walker as two good DB's who are just green.  Walker is only 21 years old for goodness' sake.  The fact that they were both thrown into starting positions, rotated among 3 different secondary positions, and played on the same side is not on them, it's a function of coaching and circumstance.  You can't put that on the scouting. 

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement.  But I get a little tired of all the posts with wildly unrealistic expectations which cherry-pick an example like Zylstra and then poor mouth solid finds like Poop Johnson because they aren't Armando Sewell.  Reasonable and balanced criticism is legitimate, but constant and pervasive cynicism is toxic. 
I think P. Johnson is good. I agree that there are very few guys like Sewell. That being said, whether a guy is 21 or 28, sometimes they just aren't good enough. Hopefully Walker improves, but if he doesn't his age shouldn't earn him a roster spot. You can say it's "wildly unrealistic" in terms of finding studs, but our scouting department has not even found a standars, average CFL receiver let alone a stud (I'm not counting Adams). Yes, the game is won at the trenches but you still need at least average play elsewhere. The plain fact is our management can't keep filling voids our scouts lack of ability have opened by signing guys. Plain and simple we can't afford it
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2018, 05:55:27 PM »

I certainly understand the difference.  The ELC is the cornerstone of SMS management.  The more ELC's you can have in place, the more FA deals you can sign...

But ELC's aren't just on your own recruited players, they can also be on players you sign from other teams.  Like Adams, Randle...  JFG, Nichols.. their first WBB contracts did not break the bank.  

Interesting thing about entry level players, like Walker or Zylstra... the window is very short on that ELC.  And if they sign a second contract, its going to be for a lot more.

There are quite a number of players still suiting up in the CFL that came though the WBB.  A heck of a lot more than there were 5 years ago.  Players that signed elsewhere because we had younger, cheaper replacements available, and could move on.  

Of the current FA pool alone, Greaves, Donny O, Brandon Stewart, Willy, Dan West, Bass, Lirim H, Johnny Sears, Kohlert, Woodson, Johnny Adams, Hunt, Muamba (2), Moore, Turner all are former WBB who have been replaced by better/younger/cheaper players.  

Keeping proven veterans around on affordable contracts, that's just as hard a job... and every bit as important.  Medlock, Bryant, Dressler, Nichols... all are on decent deals.  Not screaming ELC bargains, but fair deals.  No $250k Henoc deals..  no $500k+ Collaros deals...  

Walters has shown himself to be resourceful yet responsible in his contracts.  He's walked away from players that the contracts just did not make sense for the role they were going to play...  and he's stepped up to make sure we didn't lose key pieces.  The fact we have so much stability on the oline is amazing.  Getting our Nats under 3 year contracts to start and then extending them, well done.  

That's what builds a 11-7, 12-6 team.  And hopefully it continues to get better.

Injuries are a part of football.  But your QB having a broken finger plus other issues, losing you top Nat rush end, your all star SAM LB and your top receiver?  That's not "part of football", that's extremely bad luck.

If any 2 of those players were healthy, I'd conjecture we would have been in the GC...

The Esks and the Stamps had many more critical injuries during and at the end of the season that the Bombers.

While it may be true that if we hadn't have lost Adams, Leggett and Westerman we may have faired better in the WSF.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2018, 06:00:13 PM »

Well, the game is won and lost in the trenches, so signing linemen is not a bad thing.  And while Foketi hasn't had much playing time, its because he has been behind two durable guys who hit all-star status, but the team still extended him on the strength of practice habits.

I see Alexander and Walker as two good DB's who are just green.  Walker is only 21 years old for goodness' sake.  The fact that they were both thrown into starting positions, rotated among 3 different secondary positions, and played on the same side is not on them, it's a function of coaching and circumstance.  You can't put that on the scouting. 

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement.  But I get a little tired of all the posts with wildly unrealistic expectations which cherry-pick an example like Zylstra and then poor mouth solid finds like Poop Johnson because they aren't Armando Sewell.  Reasonable and balanced criticism is legitimate, but constant and pervasive cynicism is toxic. 

No need to cherry pick Zylstra. The Esks found D. Walker, Zylstra and Williams over the past 3 seasons. Every season in the last few years they've found top receiver talent. We've yet to find one that has made an impact. Maybe the rookies from 2017 will shine in 2018 but they had enough time in 2018 and they certainly didn't make as big an impact as any of those 3.

You want to call that example as toxic go ahead.

Here's another one. Lions found Pierce, Lulay, Reilly and Jennings. Bombers have found?
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the paw
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« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2018, 06:07:37 PM »

I think P. Johnson is good. I agree that there are very few guys like Sewell. That being said, whether a guy is 21 or 28, sometimes they just aren't good enough. Hopefully Walker improves, but if he doesn't his age shouldn't earn him a roster spot. You can say it's "wildly unrealistic" in terms of finding studs, but our scouting department has not even found a standars, average CFL receiver let alone a stud (I'm not counting Adams). Yes, the game is won at the trenches but you still need at least average play elsewhere. The plain fact is our management can't keep filling voids our scouts lack of ability have opened by signing guys. Plain and simple we can't afford it

1.  I agree, Walker has to continue to improve.
2.  Saying you don?t count Adams is arbitrary, and drives me crazy.
3.  Other than Adams (whom I count), I agree we have been through a very long list of receivers who weren?t quite good enough.  I have not given up on Washington yet, but he needs to continue to improve.
4.  I don?t accept that our scouts have a lack of ability.  They have their hits and they have their misses, but they do seem to struggle with WRs though.
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the paw
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« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2018, 06:18:02 PM »

No need to cherry pick Zylstra. The Esks found D. Walker, Zylstra and Williams over the past 3 seasons. Every season in the last few years they've found top receiver talent. We've yet to find one that has made an impact. Maybe the rookies from 2017 will shine in 2018 but they had enough time in 2018 and they certainly didn't make as big an impact as any of those 3.

You want to call that example as toxic go ahead.

Here's another one. Lions found Pierce, Lulay, Reilly and Jennings. Bombers have found?

If your point is that the Esks have been more successful in scouting WRs, I would certainly agree with that.  All I?m saying is that we have had scouting successes in other areas, it?s not all gloom and despair.

I would also agree that historically the BC Lions have been very good at identifying QBs.  It seems a little unfair to compare our current scouting staff going back as far as when Lulay and Pierce came into the league.  Maybe our scouts should get credit for Ken Ploen and Indian Jack Jacobs?
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2018, 06:20:45 PM »

No need to cherry pick Zylstra. The Esks found D. Walker, Zylstra and Williams over the past 3 seasons. Every season in the last few years they've found top receiver talent. We've yet to find one that has made an impact. Maybe the rookies from 2017 will shine in 2018 but they had enough time in 2018 and they certainly didn't make as big an impact as any of those 3.

You want to call that example as toxic go ahead.

Here's another one. Lions found Pierce, Lulay, Reilly and Jennings. Bombers have found?
good points....we seem unable to do this especially at QB.....and this has been the case for decades.  We now have Nichols but we traded for him and Buck Pierce who incidentally was another QB discovered by the Lions.  Our recent QB discoveries have virtually gone nowhere after being cut loose by the Bombers.  That has to be scouting
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theaardvark
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« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2018, 06:29:01 PM »

If your point is that the Esks have been more successful in scouting WRs, I would certainly agree with that.  All I?m saying is that we have had scouting successes in other areas, it?s not all gloom and despair.

I would also agree that historically the BC Lions have been very good at identifying QBs.  It seems a little unfair to compare our current scouting staff going back as far as when Lulay and Pierce came into the league.  Maybe our scouts should get credit for Ken Ploen and Indian Jack Jacobs?

And how many scouts with Edmonton currently were there when any of Williams, Zylstra or Walker were initially recruited?  Hervey is in BC now. 

This group is developing and growing.  Give it time...

Oh.. another forgotten recruit from last year... TJ Thorpe... still on SSK's 82 man roster
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2018, 06:33:45 PM »

And how many scouts with Edmonton currently were there when any of Williams, Zylstra or Walker were initially recruited?  Hervey is in BC now. 

This group is developing and growing.  Give it time...

Oh.. another forgotten recruit from last year... TJ Thorpe... still on SSK's 82 man roster
Did Thorpe actually get to play for the Riders after he left?  I really was high on him earlier in the season and thought he had a lot of potential to make our offence more diverse.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 06:36:20 PM by Lincoln Locomotive » Logged

" Leo Lewis was the best player I ever coached, on either side of the border"!

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theaardvark
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« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2018, 06:37:14 PM »

Did Thorpe play for the Riders after he left?  I really was high on him earlier in the season and though he had a lot of potential to make our offence more diverse.

Didn't record any stats, not sure if he made their 44 man roster.  They are pretty deep over there at Rec...  still don't understand why he packed up and left.  Regardless, he is a WBB recruit...
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2018, 06:39:38 PM »

Didn't record any stats, not sure if he made their 44 man roster.  They are pretty deep over there at Rec...  still don't understand why he packed up and left.  Regardless, he is a WBB recruit...
Agreed....will be interesting to see if they hang on to him after TC.
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" Leo Lewis was the best player I ever coached, on either side of the border"!

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bunker
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« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2018, 06:51:48 PM »

Well, the game is won and lost in the trenches, so signing linemen is not a bad thing.  And while Foketi hasn't had much playing time, its because he has been behind two durable guys who hit all-star status, but the team still extended him on the strength of practice habits.

I see Alexander and Walker as two good DB's who are just green.  Walker is only 21 years old for goodness' sake.  The fact that they were both thrown into starting positions, rotated among 3 different secondary positions, and played on the same side is not on them, it's a function of coaching and circumstance.  You can't put that on the scouting. 

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement.  But I get a little tired of all the posts with wildly unrealistic expectations which cherry-pick an example like Zylstra and then poor mouth solid finds like Poop Johnson because they aren't Armando Sewell.  Reasonable and balanced criticism is legitimate, but constant and pervasive cynicism is toxic. 

I don't think most of us have wildly unrealistic expectations. We want the team to improve, and the most glaring deficiency in Walter's body of work (which is very good otherwise, I will readily grant) is scouting new American talent. I think its pretty clear he recognizes this as well, based on the changes he has made.

Constant and pervasive cynicism? Toxic? I think that's a bit over the top. We're having a civil and I think reasonable rational discussion, with differing viewpoints. Where "balanced" criticism stops, and cynicism begins will be in the eye of the beholder I think. Some of us are a bit bitter about how our season ended which colors our view no doubt, and fuels some impatience, but I don't think its toxic.

And I don't think its cherry picking. The fact is that other CFL teams on a fairly routine basis unearth new (and at least temporarily cheap) talent that has a major impact on the team, including achieving all star level play. We lag behind. I'm happy to find the Poop Johnson's, (and if he and others have a break out year this year, I will eat crow, because Sewell was not an instant star either) but I think its the Almond Sewell/Zylstra type players that can push you over the hump from one and done in the playoffs to Grey Cup. We have found hardly any in the last 5 years.

Further,  the money saved initially on their cheaper salaries gives you the flexibility to hang on to core veterans like Randal, Heath, and Leggett, instead of having to sacrifice one of them to the SMS. Calgary has a constant stream of good American talent coming in on entry level contracts, which is one of the major contributors to their success. Huff stays away from free agency for a reason. I think its a model we should aspire to.
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