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Author Topic: Walters Interview With TSN?s Naylor  (Read 3854 times)
Lincoln Locomotive
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« on: January 11, 2018, 06:16:41 PM »

I watched this interview which has me wondering about what changes we are going to see on defence this season.  His answers concerning Hall and MOS pressing him a bit more seemed rather lame.   I?m not holding my breath
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Tehedra
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2018, 06:41:10 PM »

Could you provide the link to the interview?
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thunderNlightning
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2018, 07:09:00 PM »

Could you provide the link to the interview?

https://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/mountainside-chats-with-dave-naylor-kyle-walters~1299746
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Chris1982
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2018, 08:58:19 PM »

I watched this interview which has me wondering about what changes we are going to see on defence this season.  His answers concerning Hall and MOS pressing him a bit more seemed rather lame.   I?m not holding my breath

Its still only January... I am sure come March or April we will have a lot more insight.
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GOLDMEMBER
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2018, 09:11:14 PM »


Hall back is something I just cannot explain logically

Ugh!
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gbill2004
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 09:16:27 PM »

Hall back is something I just cannot explain logically

Ugh!
Walters said in the interview that Hall and MOS have a good working relationship!
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kkc60
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 09:19:23 PM »

Walters said in the interview that Hall and MOS have a good working relationship!
Yay! Do they have friendship braclets?
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Horseman
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 06:50:22 PM »

Walters said in the interview that Hall and MOS have a good working relationship!

Yeah, that good working relationship has really paid off for us on defence these past years. Wink
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gbill2004
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2018, 06:52:21 PM »

Yeah, that good working relationship has really paid off for us on defence these past years. Wink
I know, that's exactly my point.  I don't care if they have a good working relationship...I want results. 

Reminds me of when O'Shea defends a player by saying that they're a hard worker or they speak up in meetings etc.  Who cares what they do in meetings if they suck? 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 06:55:31 PM by gbill2004 » Logged
theaardvark
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2018, 07:15:00 PM »

I know, that's exactly my point.  I don't care if they have a good working relationship...I want results. 

Reminds me of when O'Shea defends a player by saying that they're a hard worker or they speak up in meetings etc.  Who cares what they do in meetings if they suck? 

2015 - 5-13
2016 - 11-7
2017 - 12-6

Happy with Glenn being .500, but MOS/Hall/Lapo being 23/36 (.639) sucks? 

You want results?  What the heck do they have to do to please you? 

I know, playoff wins.  Well, KG broke his arm and WBB faithful's hearts and he gets a glowing review.  But Nichols breaks a finger on his throwing hand and guts it out and they lose the WSF by one score, missing Leggett, Adams, Westerman as well as Nichols being injured... 

Its a nine team league, and we should have won the GC recently, I get it.  But this crew has had only a few years to right what was a horribly bad ship. 

If you want results, the last thing you want to do is "rebulid" a 12-6 crew...
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gbill2004
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2018, 07:21:43 PM »

2015 - 5-13
2016 - 11-7
2017 - 12-6

Happy with Glenn being .500, but MOS/Hall/Lapo being 23/36 (.639) sucks? 

You want results?  What the heck do they have to do to please you? 

I know, playoff wins.  Well, KG broke his arm and WBB faithful's hearts and he gets a glowing review.  But Nichols breaks a finger on his throwing hand and guts it out and they lose the WSF by one score, missing Leggett, Adams, Westerman as well as Nichols being injured... 

Its a nine team league, and we should have won the GC recently, I get it.  But this crew has had only a few years to right what was a horribly bad ship. 

If you want results, the last thing you want to do is "rebulid" a 12-6 crew...
Everyone has already acknowledged the D is a problem. Watch O?Shea?s and Walters end of season pressers.
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GCn18
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2018, 07:27:37 PM »

2015 - 5-13
2016 - 11-7
2017 - 12-6

Happy with Glenn being .500, but MOS/Hall/Lapo being 23/36 (.639) sucks? 

You want results?  What the heck do they have to do to please you? 

I know, playoff wins.  Well, KG broke his arm and WBB faithful's hearts and he gets a glowing review.  But Nichols breaks a finger on his throwing hand and guts it out and they lose the WSF by one score, missing Leggett, Adams, Westerman as well as Nichols being injured... 

Its a nine team league, and we should have won the GC recently, I get it.  But this crew has had only a few years to right what was a horribly bad ship. 

If you want results, the last thing you want to do is "rebulid" a 12-6 crew...

This, or any other team, only gets to skate on the rebuild moniker for so long. Our corps is aging and it's time to win NOW. If that doesn't happen then, yes...it is rebuild time and I doubt that everyone in management and coaching is around to do it. This notion of yours that there is an infinite window of time to win is pure fallacy.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2018, 07:41:33 PM »

This, or any other team, only gets to skate on the rebuild moniker for so long. Our corps is aging and it's time to win NOW. If that doesn't happen then, yes...it is rebuild time and I doubt that everyone in management and coaching is around to do it. This notion of yours that there is an infinite window of time to win is pure fallacy.

You think I believe in an "Infinite window"?  Horse hockey.  Of course it is not infinite.  But it is a heck of a lot longer than 2 years removed from a 5-13 season...
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2018, 08:22:09 PM »

This, or any other team, only gets to skate on the rebuild moniker for so long. Our corps is aging and it's time to win NOW. If that doesn't happen then, yes...it is rebuild time and I doubt that everyone in management and coaching is around to do it. This notion of yours that there is an infinite window of time to win is pure fallacy.

I think every year is basically win now in the CFL. The only exception is for teams who have been so badly mismanaged that they can't possibly correct the issues over a single off-season, which is what we went through. As long as you have a steady flow of decent Canadians you'll be set. You can always reload in free agency with all those one-year contracts and theoretically scouting should come through here and there. It's not like the NHL where teams seem to go through boom and bust cycles where losing painfully for several years is required each and every time you rebuild. In the CFL you really can win infinitely so long as you can find a QB and have decent Canadians.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2018, 08:25:27 PM »

I think every year is basically win now in the CFL. The only exception is for teams who have been so badly mismanaged that they can't possibly correct the issues over a single off-season, which is what we went through. As long as you have a steady flow of decent Canadians you'll be set. You can always reload in free agency with all those one-year contracts and theoretically scouting should come through here and there. It's not like the NHL where teams seem to go through boom and bust cycles where losing painfully for several years is required each and every time you rebuild. In the CFL you really can win infinitely so long as you can find a QB and have decent Canadians.
Andrew Harris is on his last legs, and Westerman is as well, if he even returns.  But I think we have a solid young core of Canadians with Loffler, Chungh, Goossen, and Couture/Spooner, and hopefully Ekakitie. 
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2018, 08:29:34 PM »

Andrew Harris is on his last legs, and Westerman is as well, if he even returns.  But I think we have a solid young core of Canadians with Loffler, Chungh, Goossen, and Couture/Spooner, and hopefully Ekakitie. 

Right, keep drafting good Canadians and the rest is replaceable and much more quickly correctable. Also unlike a lot of major sports leagues, the CFL draft isn't really the great leveler of talent. Because of how darn unpredictable that draft is, a 7th overall pick is likely to be as good as the 3rd overall pick. Teams can successfully pick near the end of the draft and still be totally fine. That's impossible over the long term in other leagues.
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bunker
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2018, 10:56:43 PM »

Right, keep drafting good Canadians and the rest is replaceable and much more quickly correctable. Also unlike a lot of major sports leagues, the CFL draft isn't really the great leveler of talent. Because of how darn unpredictable that draft is, a 7th overall pick is likely to be as good as the 3rd overall pick. Teams can successfully pick near the end of the draft and still be totally fine. That's impossible over the long term in other leagues.
I think we have a very good nucleus with a proven QB, a good group of Canadians, and a solid O-line. I'm not sold on our ability to scout and sign good young cheap American talent though, and that's a real handicap, both in terms of talent, and our flexibility in free agency.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2018, 10:57:45 PM »

I think we have a very good nucleus with a proven QB, a good group of Canadians, and a solid O-line. I'm not sold on our ability to scout and sign good young cheap American talent though, and that's a real handicap, both in terms of talent, and our flexibility in free agency.

Which is why they hired a new US Scout...  who has a very solid track record.
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bunker
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2018, 11:09:56 PM »

Which is why they hired a new US Scout...  who has a very solid track record.
Fair enough, but several years too late unfortunately. And it can be a few years before the labour of new scouts bare fruit, something you clearly are aware of since I believe you used it in the past as an excuse for why there were few gems being uncovered by the previous US scout(s).
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2018, 04:35:00 AM »

Which is why they hired a new US Scout...  who has a very solid track record.
I haven't followed his career up till now. Who did he personally bring in? (Not who did BC bring in)

Why was he let go by BC? Was it his track record or something else?
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kkc60
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2018, 06:14:19 AM »

Which is why they hired a new US Scout...  who has a very solid track record.
I highly doubt in one year our new US scout will bring us more than one of the following (if any): an impact receiver, a promising QB prospect, a good DB or a good LB. While he could bring in some good players, I have tempered my expectations for year one
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the paw
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2018, 02:05:43 PM »

I think we have a very good nucleus with a proven QB, a good group of Canadians, and a solid O-line. I'm not sold on our ability to scout and sign good young cheap American talent though, and that's a real handicap, both in terms of talent, and our flexibility in free agency.

Poop Johnson, Santos-Knox, Jeffcoat, Alexander, Walker, Foketi, Bond, Flanders.  That?s not bad.

If folks are expecting a steady stream of Chris Matthews-like discoveries, they don?t have realistic expectations.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2018, 02:10:51 PM »

Poop Johnson, Santos-Knox, Jeffcoat, Alexander, Walker, Foketi, Bond, Flanders.  That?s not bad.

If folks are expecting a steady stream of Chris Matthews-like discoveries, they don?t have realistic expectations.

Flanders was found by the Lions. Alexander and Walker are TBD at this point. Foketi hasn't really played although he's had positive comments from the coaches. They also said that about Carmichael if you recall.

I'd say Bond was the best of the lot. Santos Knox, Jeffcoat and Johnson might turn out to be great CFL players and have shown good potential.

Keep in mind this is year 5 for the Walter's regime. Perhaps we can say that the scouting efforts in 2017 show the most promise?

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theaardvark
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2018, 02:46:22 PM »

Flanders was found by the Lions. Alexander and Walker are TBD at this point. Foketi hasn't really played although he's had positive comments from the coaches. They also said that about Carmichael if you recall.

I'd say Bond was the best of the lot. Santos Knox, Jeffcoat and Johnson might turn out to be great CFL players and have shown good potential.

Keep in mind this is year 5 for the Walter's regime. Perhaps we can say that the scouting efforts in 2017 show the most promise?



We're just talking Int's here... and there are names missed, including Leggett.  Walters personally has been the guy for the Nat depth, the draft...  and the trades... and FA acquisitions...  Regardless who found them, we have Stanley, Medlock, Adams, Nichols, Randle, Hardick, etc...  those guys didn't just walk into the team, they were brought here.

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bigbuff33
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2018, 03:02:08 PM »

Aards...you ask...what more do you want...

seriously???   Walters and O'Shea have been in charge for four years...and not one playoff game win...not one...

Just a reminder that last year...Toronto...in its first year under Pop and Trestman...Grey Cup    Ottawa...a brand new franchise...has a Grey Cup win...

Please don't insult our intelligence by saying what more do we want...

O'Shea and Walters have yet to prove they can produce a winner...
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 03:16:35 PM »

We're just talking Int's here... and there are names missed, including Leggett.  Walters personally has been the guy for the Nat depth, the draft...  and the trades... and FA acquisitions...  Regardless who found them, we have Stanley, Medlock, Adams, Nichols, Randle, Hardick, etc...  those guys didn't just walk into the team, they were brought here.



You don't understand the difference in finding an entry level contact player like Zylstra as a rookie compared to signing a free agent veteran for $180K.

It doesn't take a football genius to sign proven CFL veterans for big contracts.
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the paw
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 03:18:09 PM »

Flanders was found by the Lions. Alexander and Walker are TBD at this point. Foketi hasn't really played although he's had positive comments from the coaches. They also said that about Carmichael if you recall.

I'd say Bond was the best of the lot. Santos Knox, Jeffcoat and Johnson might turn out to be great CFL players and have shown good potential.

Keep in mind this is year 5 for the Walter's regime. Perhaps we can say that the scouting efforts in 2017 show the most promise?



The fact that Flanders played one game from BC doesn't negate the fact that we still needed to have a scouting report on him, and to prioritize him as someone to bring in once they let him go. Our scouts don't have to find the prospects fishing with a cane pole on a rickety bridge in Mississippi to have it count as a score.   I would also say that both Alexander and Walker can ball, they are just making rookie mistakes.  Even if they don't eventually pan out, they have shown well enough to justify their status as top prospects.  

I haven't researched the training camp rosters to state categorically that you are correct when you say 2017 was their best scouting year.  But common sense supports that notion.  In the early years they needed to pick up key free agents, and once that work was done, the mining gets a little tougher.  I don't think your overall assessment is unfair though.  I think we just tend to more critical of our own scouts, because we see other team's great finds and don't really pay attention to their misses.  

I have to say that the only area they have really disappointed me in is the search for wide receivers. And I am still holding hope our for LDW.  I think he has the physical tools and effort, but the jury is out on what's between his ears.  
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bunker
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 03:20:24 PM »

Poop Johnson, Santos-Knox, Jeffcoat, Alexander, Walker, Foketi, Bond, Flanders.  That?s not bad.

If folks are expecting a steady stream of Chris Matthews-like discoveries, they don?t have realistic expectations.
Walters has been GM 4 1/2 years. He's done many things right. Finding good young American talent is not one of them. Alexander and Walker have not even proven they are capable of starting in the CFL. Other than Hurl, they were the weakest part of the team last year. Santos-Knox would rank in the bottom 1/3 of WIL's in the league, only got to start after Wild was injured. Foketi has not managed to become a starter. Flanders is good for what he is, which is a rotational RB to divert attention from Harris and give him a rest at times. He's no James Wilder. A handful of good American running backs like him show up in the CFL every year. None of these players are major impact players.

Johnson played well,and I like him, but when push came to shove, Poop sat in favour of Nevis. Maybe he'll have a breakout year, I don't know. So far he's no Almondo Sewell, Micah Johnson,Dylan Wynn.

Jeffcoat also played well. A very good find, but if Westerman is back, he will likely still be a rotational DE behind T.O. and Westerman. Not to say he's not a good player, maybe he'll even beat out T.O. for playing time. But he's far from a John Bowman (in his prime),Willie Jefferson, Charlston Hughes, or Victor Butler.

Bond is the best of the lot. No argument there, he's a dominant O-lineman. Unfortunately, he seems to play best at guard, which is a non-traditional Import position, and he's likely gone  to either NFL or another team.

So 4 1/2 years, and we've got, what, one major impact American player through scouting that we are not able to retain. Compare that to other teams. Last off season alone Toronto was able to trot out Butler, Wynn, and Wilder.

Walters ticks all the boxes for most of what a GM should do, and he does it well, but this is his (with apologies to Mo Leggett) achilles heel.
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kkc60
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« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2018, 03:37:03 PM »

Poop Johnson, Santos-Knox, Jeffcoat, Alexander, Walker, Foketi, Bond, Flanders.  That?s not bad.

If folks are expecting a steady stream of Chris Matthews-like discoveries, they don?t have realistic expectations.
Aren't you sensing a theme to with those names? They are mostly linemen. Foketi, Alexander and Walker are all a little bit of a reach to say "not bad" considering they have either hardly played or proven very little in their first season. Look at Calgary and how much of their roster was found via scouting
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kkc60
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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2018, 03:52:29 PM »

We're just talking Int's here... and there are names missed, including Leggett.  Walters personally has been the guy for the Nat depth, the draft...  and the trades... and FA acquisitions...  Regardless who found them, we have Stanley, Medlock, Adams, Nichols, Randle, Hardick, etc...  those guys didn't just walk into the team, they were brought here.


His drafting skills have been pretty good for the most part. But you can't honestly cover the fact our scouting department has been below average by essentially saying "we paid free agents who are good to come here so even though our scouting department sucks, our GM us good at negotiating with free agents"
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2018, 04:05:49 PM »

One thing Walters admitted was that we weren?t good enough in the SF against Edmonton who dominated us even though the final score was relatively close.   The score flattered us and we scored our last TD and two point conversion on the last play of the game.  We can blame injuries et al but injuries are part of football.  A player like Wilder in TO was a back up to Whitaker and when Whitaker was injured Wilder dominated and lead them to a Grey Cup.  Our time to win the Cup is now because Harris isn?t going to last forever and expecting another season like the one he just had would be a long shot....maybe he has it in him and I hope he does.  This will be the 5th season under this management and anything short of actually being in the GC imho would be a failure.   As was stated by other posters, teams have gone from last to first in one season with Ottawa and TO being the most recent.   Yes we have a good nucleus and a QB that has the makings of a winner....but he can?t do it by himself and he needs a defence to help him out when he?s misfiring.   The comment Walters made about MOS?s relationship sounds to me like we may be in for another season of bend over but don?t break defence.   That defence was on display in vivid technicolor in the SF and unless we see some marked improvement defensively our chances for a Cup are perhaps delusional.   If we sign Hurl again expect more of the same.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2018, 04:14:47 PM »

You don't understand the difference in finding an entry level contact player like Zylstra as a rookie compared to signing a free agent veteran for $180K.

It doesn't take a football genius to sign proven CFL veterans for big contracts.

I certainly understand the difference.  The ELC is the cornerstone of SMS management.  The more ELC's you can have in place, the more FA deals you can sign...

But ELC's aren't just on your own recruited players, they can also be on players you sign from other teams.  Like Adams, Randle...  JFG, Nichols.. their first WBB contracts did not break the bank.  

Interesting thing about entry level players, like Walker or Zylstra... the window is very short on that ELC.  And if they sign a second contract, its going to be for a lot more.

There are quite a number of players still suiting up in the CFL that came though the WBB.  A heck of a lot more than there were 5 years ago.  Players that signed elsewhere because we had younger, cheaper replacements available, and could move on.  

Of the current FA pool alone, Greaves, Donny O, Brandon Stewart, Willy, Dan West, Bass, Lirim H, Johnny Sears, Kohlert, Woodson, Johnny Adams, Hunt, Muamba (2), Moore, Turner all are former WBB who have been replaced by better/younger/cheaper players.  

Keeping proven veterans around on affordable contracts, that's just as hard a job... and every bit as important.  Medlock, Bryant, Dressler, Nichols... all are on decent deals.  Not screaming ELC bargains, but fair deals.  No $250k Henoc deals..  no $500k+ Collaros deals...  

Walters has shown himself to be resourceful yet responsible in his contracts.  He's walked away from players that the contracts just did not make sense for the role they were going to play...  and he's stepped up to make sure we didn't lose key pieces.  The fact we have so much stability on the oline is amazing.  Getting our Nats under 3 year contracts to start and then extending them, well done.  

That's what builds a 11-7, 12-6 team.  And hopefully it continues to get better.

One thing Walters admitted was that we weren?t good enough in the SF against Edmonton who dominated us even though the final score was relatively close.   The score flattered us and we scored our last TD and two point conversion on the last play of the game.  We can blame injuries et al but injuries are part of football.  A player like Wilder in TO was a back up to Whitaker and when Whitaker was injured Wilder dominated and lead them to a Grey Cup.  Our time to win the Cup is now because Harris isn?t going to last forever and expecting another season like the one he just had would be a long shot....maybe he has it in him and I hope he does.  This will be the 5th season under this management and anything short of actually being in the GC imho would be a failure.   As was stated by other posters, teams have gone from last to first in one season with Ottawa and TO being the most recent.   Yes we have a good nucleus and a QB that has the makings of a winner....but he can?t do it by himself and he needs a defence to help him out when he?s misfiring.   The comment Walters made about MOS?s relationship sounds to me like we may be in for another season of bend over but don?t break defence.   That defence was on display in vivid technicolor in the SF and unless we see some marked improvement defensively our chances for a Cup are perhaps delusional.   If we sign Hurl again expect more of the same.

Injuries are a part of football.  But your QB having a broken finger plus other issues, losing you top Nat rush end, your all star SAM LB and your top receiver?  That's not "part of football", that's extremely bad luck.

If any 2 of those players were healthy, I'd conjecture we would have been in the GC...
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2018, 04:39:17 PM »

I agree that we had bad luck near the end of the season and very good luck until 3/4 through the season.  Edmonton had far more injuries than most early on and got healthy late in the season and against us.  Losing Legget was very unfortunate as he was definitely an impact player and he would have likely made a difference had he been playing.   The fact is and my point was specifically targeted at our defensive schemes which Edmonton exploited after we attempted that fake punt from the 26 YL.   It was painful to watch after that.  For us to win it all which is really the point of this whole discussion....we need to improve defensively to help Nichols out or we will not advance to the Grey Cup.  My observation based only on the interview was that MOS has a good working relationship with Hall who is responsible as DC for our defensive strategy and philosophy.   Perhaps MOS will interject more this season and instill some of his killer instincts in our D....I certainly hope so because if not we?re not likely to advance to the dance!
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the paw
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« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2018, 05:32:14 PM »

Aren't you sensing a theme to with those names? They are mostly linemen. Foketi, Alexander and Walker are all a little bit of a reach to say "not bad" considering they have either hardly played or proven very little in their first season. Look at Calgary and how much of their roster was found via scouting

Well, the game is won and lost in the trenches, so signing linemen is not a bad thing.  And while Foketi hasn't had much playing time, its because he has been behind two durable guys who hit all-star status, but the team still extended him on the strength of practice habits.

I see Alexander and Walker as two good DB's who are just green.  Walker is only 21 years old for goodness' sake.  The fact that they were both thrown into starting positions, rotated among 3 different secondary positions, and played on the same side is not on them, it's a function of coaching and circumstance.  You can't put that on the scouting. 

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement.  But I get a little tired of all the posts with wildly unrealistic expectations which cherry-pick an example like Zylstra and then poor mouth solid finds like Poop Johnson because they aren't Armando Sewell.  Reasonable and balanced criticism is legitimate, but constant and pervasive cynicism is toxic. 
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kkc60
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« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2018, 05:52:02 PM »

Well, the game is won and lost in the trenches, so signing linemen is not a bad thing.  And while Foketi hasn't had much playing time, its because he has been behind two durable guys who hit all-star status, but the team still extended him on the strength of practice habits.

I see Alexander and Walker as two good DB's who are just green.  Walker is only 21 years old for goodness' sake.  The fact that they were both thrown into starting positions, rotated among 3 different secondary positions, and played on the same side is not on them, it's a function of coaching and circumstance.  You can't put that on the scouting. 

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement.  But I get a little tired of all the posts with wildly unrealistic expectations which cherry-pick an example like Zylstra and then poor mouth solid finds like Poop Johnson because they aren't Armando Sewell.  Reasonable and balanced criticism is legitimate, but constant and pervasive cynicism is toxic. 
I think P. Johnson is good. I agree that there are very few guys like Sewell. That being said, whether a guy is 21 or 28, sometimes they just aren't good enough. Hopefully Walker improves, but if he doesn't his age shouldn't earn him a roster spot. You can say it's "wildly unrealistic" in terms of finding studs, but our scouting department has not even found a standars, average CFL receiver let alone a stud (I'm not counting Adams). Yes, the game is won at the trenches but you still need at least average play elsewhere. The plain fact is our management can't keep filling voids our scouts lack of ability have opened by signing guys. Plain and simple we can't afford it
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2018, 05:55:27 PM »

I certainly understand the difference.  The ELC is the cornerstone of SMS management.  The more ELC's you can have in place, the more FA deals you can sign...

But ELC's aren't just on your own recruited players, they can also be on players you sign from other teams.  Like Adams, Randle...  JFG, Nichols.. their first WBB contracts did not break the bank.  

Interesting thing about entry level players, like Walker or Zylstra... the window is very short on that ELC.  And if they sign a second contract, its going to be for a lot more.

There are quite a number of players still suiting up in the CFL that came though the WBB.  A heck of a lot more than there were 5 years ago.  Players that signed elsewhere because we had younger, cheaper replacements available, and could move on.  

Of the current FA pool alone, Greaves, Donny O, Brandon Stewart, Willy, Dan West, Bass, Lirim H, Johnny Sears, Kohlert, Woodson, Johnny Adams, Hunt, Muamba (2), Moore, Turner all are former WBB who have been replaced by better/younger/cheaper players.  

Keeping proven veterans around on affordable contracts, that's just as hard a job... and every bit as important.  Medlock, Bryant, Dressler, Nichols... all are on decent deals.  Not screaming ELC bargains, but fair deals.  No $250k Henoc deals..  no $500k+ Collaros deals...  

Walters has shown himself to be resourceful yet responsible in his contracts.  He's walked away from players that the contracts just did not make sense for the role they were going to play...  and he's stepped up to make sure we didn't lose key pieces.  The fact we have so much stability on the oline is amazing.  Getting our Nats under 3 year contracts to start and then extending them, well done.  

That's what builds a 11-7, 12-6 team.  And hopefully it continues to get better.

Injuries are a part of football.  But your QB having a broken finger plus other issues, losing you top Nat rush end, your all star SAM LB and your top receiver?  That's not "part of football", that's extremely bad luck.

If any 2 of those players were healthy, I'd conjecture we would have been in the GC...

The Esks and the Stamps had many more critical injuries during and at the end of the season that the Bombers.

While it may be true that if we hadn't have lost Adams, Leggett and Westerman we may have faired better in the WSF.
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« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2018, 06:00:13 PM »

Well, the game is won and lost in the trenches, so signing linemen is not a bad thing.  And while Foketi hasn't had much playing time, its because he has been behind two durable guys who hit all-star status, but the team still extended him on the strength of practice habits.

I see Alexander and Walker as two good DB's who are just green.  Walker is only 21 years old for goodness' sake.  The fact that they were both thrown into starting positions, rotated among 3 different secondary positions, and played on the same side is not on them, it's a function of coaching and circumstance.  You can't put that on the scouting. 

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement.  But I get a little tired of all the posts with wildly unrealistic expectations which cherry-pick an example like Zylstra and then poor mouth solid finds like Poop Johnson because they aren't Armando Sewell.  Reasonable and balanced criticism is legitimate, but constant and pervasive cynicism is toxic. 

No need to cherry pick Zylstra. The Esks found D. Walker, Zylstra and Williams over the past 3 seasons. Every season in the last few years they've found top receiver talent. We've yet to find one that has made an impact. Maybe the rookies from 2017 will shine in 2018 but they had enough time in 2018 and they certainly didn't make as big an impact as any of those 3.

You want to call that example as toxic go ahead.

Here's another one. Lions found Pierce, Lulay, Reilly and Jennings. Bombers have found?
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« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2018, 06:07:37 PM »

I think P. Johnson is good. I agree that there are very few guys like Sewell. That being said, whether a guy is 21 or 28, sometimes they just aren't good enough. Hopefully Walker improves, but if he doesn't his age shouldn't earn him a roster spot. You can say it's "wildly unrealistic" in terms of finding studs, but our scouting department has not even found a standars, average CFL receiver let alone a stud (I'm not counting Adams). Yes, the game is won at the trenches but you still need at least average play elsewhere. The plain fact is our management can't keep filling voids our scouts lack of ability have opened by signing guys. Plain and simple we can't afford it

1.  I agree, Walker has to continue to improve.
2.  Saying you don?t count Adams is arbitrary, and drives me crazy.
3.  Other than Adams (whom I count), I agree we have been through a very long list of receivers who weren?t quite good enough.  I have not given up on Washington yet, but he needs to continue to improve.
4.  I don?t accept that our scouts have a lack of ability.  They have their hits and they have their misses, but they do seem to struggle with WRs though.
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the paw
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« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2018, 06:18:02 PM »

No need to cherry pick Zylstra. The Esks found D. Walker, Zylstra and Williams over the past 3 seasons. Every season in the last few years they've found top receiver talent. We've yet to find one that has made an impact. Maybe the rookies from 2017 will shine in 2018 but they had enough time in 2018 and they certainly didn't make as big an impact as any of those 3.

You want to call that example as toxic go ahead.

Here's another one. Lions found Pierce, Lulay, Reilly and Jennings. Bombers have found?

If your point is that the Esks have been more successful in scouting WRs, I would certainly agree with that.  All I?m saying is that we have had scouting successes in other areas, it?s not all gloom and despair.

I would also agree that historically the BC Lions have been very good at identifying QBs.  It seems a little unfair to compare our current scouting staff going back as far as when Lulay and Pierce came into the league.  Maybe our scouts should get credit for Ken Ploen and Indian Jack Jacobs?
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2018, 06:20:45 PM »

No need to cherry pick Zylstra. The Esks found D. Walker, Zylstra and Williams over the past 3 seasons. Every season in the last few years they've found top receiver talent. We've yet to find one that has made an impact. Maybe the rookies from 2017 will shine in 2018 but they had enough time in 2018 and they certainly didn't make as big an impact as any of those 3.

You want to call that example as toxic go ahead.

Here's another one. Lions found Pierce, Lulay, Reilly and Jennings. Bombers have found?
good points....we seem unable to do this especially at QB.....and this has been the case for decades.  We now have Nichols but we traded for him and Buck Pierce who incidentally was another QB discovered by the Lions.  Our recent QB discoveries have virtually gone nowhere after being cut loose by the Bombers.  That has to be scouting
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« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2018, 06:29:01 PM »

If your point is that the Esks have been more successful in scouting WRs, I would certainly agree with that.  All I?m saying is that we have had scouting successes in other areas, it?s not all gloom and despair.

I would also agree that historically the BC Lions have been very good at identifying QBs.  It seems a little unfair to compare our current scouting staff going back as far as when Lulay and Pierce came into the league.  Maybe our scouts should get credit for Ken Ploen and Indian Jack Jacobs?

And how many scouts with Edmonton currently were there when any of Williams, Zylstra or Walker were initially recruited?  Hervey is in BC now. 

This group is developing and growing.  Give it time...

Oh.. another forgotten recruit from last year... TJ Thorpe... still on SSK's 82 man roster
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« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2018, 06:33:45 PM »

And how many scouts with Edmonton currently were there when any of Williams, Zylstra or Walker were initially recruited?  Hervey is in BC now. 

This group is developing and growing.  Give it time...

Oh.. another forgotten recruit from last year... TJ Thorpe... still on SSK's 82 man roster
Did Thorpe actually get to play for the Riders after he left?  I really was high on him earlier in the season and thought he had a lot of potential to make our offence more diverse.
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« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2018, 06:37:14 PM »

Did Thorpe play for the Riders after he left?  I really was high on him earlier in the season and though he had a lot of potential to make our offence more diverse.

Didn't record any stats, not sure if he made their 44 man roster.  They are pretty deep over there at Rec...  still don't understand why he packed up and left.  Regardless, he is a WBB recruit...
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« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2018, 06:39:38 PM »

Didn't record any stats, not sure if he made their 44 man roster.  They are pretty deep over there at Rec...  still don't understand why he packed up and left.  Regardless, he is a WBB recruit...
Agreed....will be interesting to see if they hang on to him after TC.
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« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2018, 06:51:48 PM »

Well, the game is won and lost in the trenches, so signing linemen is not a bad thing.  And while Foketi hasn't had much playing time, its because he has been behind two durable guys who hit all-star status, but the team still extended him on the strength of practice habits.

I see Alexander and Walker as two good DB's who are just green.  Walker is only 21 years old for goodness' sake.  The fact that they were both thrown into starting positions, rotated among 3 different secondary positions, and played on the same side is not on them, it's a function of coaching and circumstance.  You can't put that on the scouting. 

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement.  But I get a little tired of all the posts with wildly unrealistic expectations which cherry-pick an example like Zylstra and then poor mouth solid finds like Poop Johnson because they aren't Armando Sewell.  Reasonable and balanced criticism is legitimate, but constant and pervasive cynicism is toxic. 

I don't think most of us have wildly unrealistic expectations. We want the team to improve, and the most glaring deficiency in Walter's body of work (which is very good otherwise, I will readily grant) is scouting new American talent. I think its pretty clear he recognizes this as well, based on the changes he has made.

Constant and pervasive cynicism? Toxic? I think that's a bit over the top. We're having a civil and I think reasonable rational discussion, with differing viewpoints. Where "balanced" criticism stops, and cynicism begins will be in the eye of the beholder I think. Some of us are a bit bitter about how our season ended which colors our view no doubt, and fuels some impatience, but I don't think its toxic.

And I don't think its cherry picking. The fact is that other CFL teams on a fairly routine basis unearth new (and at least temporarily cheap) talent that has a major impact on the team, including achieving all star level play. We lag behind. I'm happy to find the Poop Johnson's, (and if he and others have a break out year this year, I will eat crow, because Sewell was not an instant star either) but I think its the Almond Sewell/Zylstra type players that can push you over the hump from one and done in the playoffs to Grey Cup. We have found hardly any in the last 5 years.

Further,  the money saved initially on their cheaper salaries gives you the flexibility to hang on to core veterans like Randal, Heath, and Leggett, instead of having to sacrifice one of them to the SMS. Calgary has a constant stream of good American talent coming in on entry level contracts, which is one of the major contributors to their success. Huff stays away from free agency for a reason. I think its a model we should aspire to.
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« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2018, 06:56:22 PM »

1.  I agree, Walker has to continue to improve.
2.  Saying you don?t count Adams is arbitrary, and drives me crazy.
3.  Other than Adams (whom I count), I agree we have been through a very long list of receivers who weren?t quite good enough.  I have not given up on Washington yet, but he needs to continue to improve.
4.  I don?t accept that our scouts have a lack of ability.  They have their hits and they have their misses, but they do seem to struggle with WRs though.
I don't count Adams because, while he was a good signing, he was a signing. The issue is, most of their hits haven't been as big as their misses. It's inexcusable to go as long as we have without a starting MLB.
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« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2018, 07:07:19 PM »

I don't think most of us have wildly unrealistic expectations. We want the team to improve, and the most glaring deficiency in Walter's body of work (which is very good otherwise, I will readily grant) is scouting new American talent. I think its pretty clear he recognizes this as well, based on the changes he has made.

Constant and pervasive cynicism? Toxic? I think that's a bit over the top. We're having a civil and I think reasonable rational discussion, with differing viewpoints. Where "balanced" criticism stops, and cynicism begins will be in the eye of the beholder I think. Some of us are a bit bitter about how our season ended which colors our view no doubt, and fuels some impatience, but I don't think its toxic.

And I don't think its cherry picking. The fact is that other CFL teams on a fairly routine basis unearth new (and at least temporarily cheap) talent that has a major impact on the team, including achieving all star level play. We lag behind. I'm happy to find the Poop Johnson's, (and if he and others have a break out year this year, I will eat crow, because Sewell was not an instant star either) but I think its the Almond Sewell/Zylstra type players that can push you over the hump from one and done in the playoffs to Grey Cup. We have found hardly any in the last 5 years.

Further,  the money saved initially on their cheaper salaries gives you the flexibility to hang on to core veterans like Randal, Heath, and Leggett, instead of having to sacrifice one of them to the SMS. Calgary has a constant stream of good American talent coming in on entry level contracts, which is one of the major contributors to their success. Huff stays away from free agency for a reason. I think its a model we should aspire to.
Good points....all of them
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2018, 07:52:47 PM »

And how many scouts with Edmonton currently were there when any of Williams, Zylstra or Walker were initially recruited?  Hervey is in BC now. 

This group is developing and growing.  Give it time...

Oh.. another forgotten recruit from last year... TJ Thorpe... still on SSK's 82 man roster

They've had 4 years.  If the 2017 finds don't take the next step and if they don't find some cheap rookies that do well, then there may be more changes to the scouts in 2019.
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« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2018, 08:01:45 PM »

I don't think most of us have wildly unrealistic expectations. We want the team to improve, and the most glaring deficiency in Walter's body of work (which is very good otherwise, I will readily grant) is scouting new American talent. I think its pretty clear he recognizes this as well, based on the changes he has made.

Constant and pervasive cynicism? Toxic? I think that's a bit over the top. We're having a civil and I think reasonable rational discussion, with differing viewpoints. Where "balanced" criticism stops, and cynicism begins will be in the eye of the beholder I think. Some of us are a bit bitter about how our season ended which colors our view no doubt, and fuels some impatience, but I don't think its toxic.

And I don't think its cherry picking. The fact is that other CFL teams on a fairly routine basis unearth new (and at least temporarily cheap) talent that has a major impact on the team, including achieving all star level play. We lag behind. I'm happy to find the Poop Johnson's, (and if he and others have a break out year this year, I will eat crow, because Sewell was not an instant star either) but I think its the Almond Sewell/Zylstra type players that can push you over the hump from one and done in the playoffs to Grey Cup. We have found hardly any in the last 5 years.

Further,  the money saved initially on their cheaper salaries gives you the flexibility to hang on to core veterans like Randal, Heath, and Leggett, instead of having to sacrifice one of them to the SMS. Calgary has a constant stream of good American talent coming in on entry level contracts, which is one of the major contributors to their success. Huff stays away from free agency for a reason. I think its a model we should aspire to.

This is a well reasoned post.  I would argue though that fan dissatisfaction results in people being overly critical of Walters and his scouts, and over hyping other teams.  For all the scouting excellence of Edmonton and BC, we did finish ahead of them after all.

I understand the need for a certain amount of roster turnover every year, with some lower end guys in the mix.  But again, we were 12-6, and we haven?t exceeded the salary cap since Walters got here.  His math is working.

No, we haven?t won a playoff game yet.  But as SirBlueandGold has pointed out, if we keep making the playoffs consistently, the wins will take care of themselves.  The Bombers were competitive the entire year, and If we had gotten our injuries earlier in the year, we might have gone 10-8 but been able to win in the playoffs.  I think the 2016 team had talent as good as the Argos, it just didn?t pan out this time.  
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« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2018, 08:06:20 PM »

This is a well reasoned post.  I would argue though that fan dissatisfaction results in people being overly critical of Walters and his scouts, and over hyping other teams.  For all the scouting excellence of Edmonton and BC, we did finish ahead of them after all.

I understand the need for a certain amount of roster turnover every year, with some lower end guys in the mix.  But again, we were 12-6, and we haven?t exceeded the salary cap since Walters got here.  His math is working.

No, we haven?t won a playoff game yet.  But as SirBlueandGold has pointed out, if we keep making the playoffs consistently, the wins will take care of themselves.  The Bombers were competitive the entire year, and If we had gotten our injuries earlier in the year, we might have gone 10-8 but been able to win in the playoffs.  I think the 2016 team had talent as good as the Argos, it just didn?t pan out this time.  

We finished ahead of the Esks but they dominated us at home in the WSF. That suggests they had better talent and depth than we did. When they had injuries the brought back returning NFL players like Grymes and D. Walker.

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« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2018, 05:24:04 AM »

We finished ahead of the Esks but they dominated us at home in the WSF. That suggests they had better talent and depth than we did. When they had injuries the brought back returning NFL players like Grymes and D. Walker.


Who BTW they just signed
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