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Author Topic: Top 5 free agents the Bombers need to re-sign  (Read 10593 times)
SSC
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« on: November 28, 2017, 06:56:48 PM »

Who are the top 5 Bomber free agents that they need to re-sign.

My picks are: 1) S.Bryant
                    2) M.Leggett
                    3) TJ Heath
                    4) C.Randall
                    5) W.Dressler
I really hope they sign these guys, they are core players, some all-stars.
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Jockitch
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2017, 08:31:03 PM »

would replace Dressler on your list & go with Jovan Santos-Knox.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2017, 08:32:19 PM »

would replace Dressler on your list & go with Jovan Santos-Knox.

I think Santos-Knox would still be under contract. Could be wrong though.
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blue girl
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2017, 09:02:38 PM »

My choices in order of importance

1 Stanley Bryant
2 Maurice Leggett
3 Chris Randle
4 T.J. Heath
5 Timothy Flanders
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kkc60
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2017, 09:06:12 PM »

1) Bryant
2) Leggett
3)Randle
4)Heath
5) Westerman
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2017, 09:07:24 PM »

Mine:

1) Stanley Bryant
2) Travis Bond
3) Chris Randle
4) Justin Medlock
5) Maurice Leggett
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RebusRankin
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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2017, 09:26:52 PM »

Bryant
Randle
Westerman
Leggett
Dressler
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wookie
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2017, 09:37:38 PM »

the one thing we all hope is that Mr Leggett heals quickly
but best guess is that he will not be able to play until beg of sept, not sure how thsi plays out as he is a free agent,
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Jesse
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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2017, 09:40:47 PM »

the one thing we all hope is that Mr Leggett heals quickly
but best guess is that he will not be able to play until beg of sept, not sure how thsi plays out as he is a free agent,

Absolutely. We have to understand that we?re not getting Leggett at 100%.

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gbill2004
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2017, 09:45:57 PM »

the one thing we all hope is that Mr Leggett heals quickly
but best guess is that he will not be able to play until beg of sept, not sure how thsi plays out as he is a free agent,
Torn Achilles isn't the injury it once was.  if he rehabs hard, which I assume he is, he could be back in 6 months.  But it can also take a year, just depends on the person.  Anyone know if the CFL does PED tests in the offseason?  if not, Leggett should get some good HGH and he'd be ready to go for training camp!   Cheesy

But if he isn't ready for TC, my guess is that we re-sign him and he starts the season on the 6 game IR. 
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2017, 09:46:58 PM »

I wouldn't sign Leggett until he can pass his physical and I know that means he could be picked up by another team. BTW: Leggett is one of my favorite players on the team.

My top 4 would be:

Randle
Bryant
Westerman
Heath

I'm on the fence on Medlock. He's the most expensive kicker in the league and an import coming off a sub par year. I'd be interested in what I could get in an NI kicker at halfish of the salary and use the extra money to upgrade another position and the extra DI on a young up and comer. That being said, Medlock for the right price, and I'm all in.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2017, 10:41:46 PM »

I wouldn't sign Leggett until he can pass his physical and I know that means he could be picked up by another team. BTW: Leggett is one of my favorite players on the team.

My top 4 would be:

Randle
Bryant
Westerman
Heath

I'm on the fence on Medlock. He's the most expensive kicker in the league and an import coming off a sub par year. I'd be interested in what I could get in an NI kicker at halfish of the salary and use the extra money to upgrade another position and the extra DI on a young up and comer. That being said, Medlock for the right price, and I'm all in.

don't they have to pass the physical to validate their contract? I know that it is pretty standard when trades are done, I just figured a team would protect itself during the FA signing period as well...
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gbill2004
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2017, 10:46:10 PM »

Maybe we should sign Leggett as a consultant until he?s healthy, just like the Ticats did with Fantuz.
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Darwinismyhomeboy
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2017, 10:57:17 PM »

Mine:

1) Stanley Bryant
2) Travis Bond
3) Chris Randle
4) Justin Medlock
5) Maurice Leggett

Not certain on order.  But I fully agree this is the top 5.
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DarkDays
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2017, 11:15:00 PM »

Maybe we should sign Leggett as a consultant until he?s healthy, just like the Ticats did with Fantuz.

Tricksy.

I like it.
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blue girl
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2017, 11:16:27 PM »

Maybe we should sign Leggett as a consultant until he?s healthy, just like the Ticats did with Fantuz.
I'd do it.
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BlueBomber87
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2017, 12:25:06 AM »

Leggett, Bryant, Heath, Randle, Westerman in no specific order
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booch
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2017, 03:43:50 AM »

I think leggett will be ready for camp.
Talk was that Sherret was a possibility if Esk's got to grey cup and he had his surgery at beginning of year..did he not suffer same injury?
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GCn18
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2017, 01:09:10 PM »

I think leggett will be ready for camp.
Talk was that Sherret was a possibility if Esk's got to grey cup and he had his surgery at beginning of year..did he not suffer same injury?

Yes, but Achilles are highly variable on the degree of injury.
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booch
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« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2017, 01:53:47 PM »

yes and no...if it's a rupture, or a tear are basically the only variable with one having the ability to come back from earlier than the other..it is what it is...no different player to player recovery wise other than a week here or there or some unforseen set-back..not sure if Sherret was a tear or rupture....I believe Moe's was a tear??..
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Jesse
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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2017, 01:57:27 PM »

yes and no...if it's a rupture, or a tear are basically the only variable with one having the ability to come back from earlier than the other..it is what it is...no different player to player recovery wise other than a week here or there or some unforseen set-back..not sure if Sherret was a tear or rupture....I believe Moe's was a tear??..

No offence, but if we're unsure on these details, we can't compare the injuries.

I think we can agree it will be a long recovery, and we wont know he's ready until we already want him to be playing. His age, of course, doesn't make the process any easier - though we know it's a barrier that can be overcome.

It just makes things more difficult on Walters - who I hope will be identifying guys who would start at SAM, should Leggett be unable to go/unwilling to sign.
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booch
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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2017, 02:09:11 PM »

No offence taken..but from what I know and experience a return from a tear can happen now sometimes in 7-8 months..so he can play next year and I would say fairly early in the season too. 

Pretty sure he is wanting to sign here...and we wanting to sign him and I agree we best scout/recruit/sign an adequate SAM replacement so if need be we can ease him back into the defense and when he is back...we have nice depth.

I would be bringing Tony Burnett back...he would be more than adequate there and better than anything we had there other than Moe last year as well is dynamite on special teams.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2017, 02:10:50 PM »

No offence taken..but from what I know and experience a return from a tear can happen now sometimes in 7-8 months..so he can play next year and I would say fairly early in the season too. 

Pretty sure he is wanting to sign here...and we wanting to sign him and I agree we best scout/recruit/sign an adequate SAM replacement so if need be we can ease him back into the defense and when he is back...we have nice depth.

I would be bringing Tony Burnett back...he would be more than adequate there and better than anything we had there other than Moe last year as well is dynamite on special teams.
Didn't Burnett play WLB?  I thought he was Wild's backup...
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2017, 02:13:30 PM »

IIRC Burnett only played at WIL in 2016 for the Bombers. Ditto for the Lions in 2017 before being released. Not sure he'd be of any interest.

We need to step forward, not step back.
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SSC
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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2017, 07:24:59 PM »

No offence taken..but from what I know and experience a return from a tear can happen now sometimes in 7-8 months..so he can play next year and I would say fairly early in the season too. 

Pretty sure he is wanting to sign here...and we wanting to sign him and I agree we best scout/recruit/sign an adequate SAM replacement so if need be we can ease him back into the defense and when he is back...we have nice depth.

I would be bringing Tony Burnett back...he would be more than adequate there and better than anything we had there other than Moe last year as well is dynamite on special teams.

I wonder how Abubakarr Conteh would look at LB. He has the build at 6 ft. 200lbs. he's a DB and Canadian. I haven't a clue about his skill set because he hasn't played much and that's a heck of a position to play. 
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Blue72
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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2017, 07:41:53 PM »

There are a couple of FA linebackers that wouldn't be bad if they don't sign with there team, but also getting up in age but until someone better comes along:

Larry Dean       6'    226     29
Taylor Reed      6'    241     26
Bear Woods      6'    245     30
Larry Dean       6'    226     29
Adam Konar     6'2  225     24
JC Sherritt       5'9  218     29

I know Konar is not a MLB but a good LB.
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kkc60
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« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2017, 09:57:46 PM »

I wonder how Abubakarr Conteh would look at LB. He has the build at 6 ft. 200lbs. he's a DB and Canadian. I haven't a clue about his skill set because he hasn't played much and that's a heck of a position to play. 

Maybe as a SAM
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blueandgoldguy
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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2017, 10:57:55 PM »

It's unlikely a 31 year old Leggett will bounce back from his achilles injury to be the dominant player he was.  He might not even be an average linebacker next season.  He is not a must sign player at this point.  Bombers need to be looking at other options for training camp.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2017, 11:10:57 PM »

It's unlikely a 31 year old Leggett will bounce back from his achilles injury to be the dominant player he was.  He might not even be an average linebacker next season.  He is not a must sign player at this point.  Bombers need to be looking at other options for training camp.
Not a very optimistic outlook for Leggett: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/31/typical-time-of-return-from-ruptured-achilles-is-11-months/.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2017, 11:18:02 PM »

The Medlock signing is another step in the right direction.
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bunker
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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2017, 12:13:22 AM »

It's unlikely a 31 year old Leggett will bounce back from his achilles injury to be the dominant player he was.  He might not even be an average linebacker next season.  He is not a must sign player at this point.  Bombers need to be looking at other options for training camp.
Kenny Ladler is a free agent, and IMO would not at all be a step down from Leggett. Doubt we can pry him out of Edmonton however.
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SSC
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« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2017, 02:43:33 AM »

Maybe as a SAM

Yeah that's what I was thinking. The SAM position is hard to learn, as I understand, so it would be nice to be grooming some guys.
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booch
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« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2017, 01:15:33 PM »

I wonder how Abubakarr Conteh would look at LB. He has the build at 6 ft. 200lbs. he's a DB and Canadian. I haven't a clue about his skill set because he hasn't played much and that's a heck of a position to play. 

Great athlete and real good speed and in College was considered a pretty good cover guy and heavy hitter...could see him ease into a SAM role..
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booch
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« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2017, 01:18:28 PM »


Bit of an older article, as rehab/recovery has changed somewhat. Not the death shot to a career like it was before, and many guys come back with no downfall...ther are several in the CFL right now who recovered and play...and play well. I think a lot of it is predicated on the players desire to get back and his commitment to putting in the work to get back...i think I would put Leggett in the category of players who is gonna put in the work...and more to get back.

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gbill2004
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« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2017, 01:19:52 PM »

Bit of an older article, as rehab/recovery has changed somewhat. Not the death shot to a career like it was before, and many guys come back with no downfall...ther are several in the CFL right now who recovered and play...and play well. I think a lot of it is predicated on the players desire to get back and his commitment to putting in the work to get back...i think I would put Leggett in the category of players who is gonna put in the work...and more to get back.

So rehab/recovery has changed that much in the last 4-5 years? 
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Ducky
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« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2017, 01:41:15 PM »

It's unlikely a 31 year old Leggett will bounce back from his achilles injury to be the dominant player he was.  He might not even be an average linebacker next season.  He is not a must sign player at this point.  Bombers need to be looking at other options for training camp.

Maybe Leggett can have a coaching gig with the team next season?
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Jesse
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« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2017, 01:44:30 PM »

So rehab/recovery has changed that much in the last 4-5 years? 

I can believe that.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2017, 01:51:21 PM »

I can believe that.
That'd be great then. 
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KINGCHARLES
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« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2017, 01:57:10 PM »


So they could have 2 options with Leggett.
Option 1. Do the Fantuz thing and have him be some kind of "consultant/defensive assistant coach" till he's healthy?
Option 2. 6 game IR him for the season? Might need to do that 3 times. This way he gets his salary but doesn't count towards the salary cap.

I like the idea of Option 1. I believe you are allowed to pull 1 player per half of the season off 6 game IR early and what if thats needed for some other key starter. Also with Option 1. Leggett can possibly make even more money without any of it counting toward the salary cap at all.

Time for us to pull a tricky move like Edmonton, Saskatchewan and Hamilton always seem pull off.
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Jesse
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« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2017, 02:10:11 PM »

That'd be great then. 

The only problem is that he's a FA. How does Walters evaluate the contract worth when you're not sure when exactly he will come back and how long it will take him to be 100%, if ever? It's not a situation I would want to be in.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2017, 02:11:59 PM »

I'd say.

Medlock
Hardrick
Neufeld
Flanders
Jones


Wink

Of those left...

Thomas
Randle
Bryant
Leggett
Heath
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:23:29 PM by theaardvark » Logged

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gbill2004
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« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2017, 03:06:35 PM »

The only problem is that he's a FA. How does Walters evaluate the contract worth when you're not sure when exactly he will come back and how long it will take him to be 100%, if ever? It's not a situation I would want to be in.
Bombers should hire him as a consultant/coach just like the Ticats did with Andy Fantuz.  Then if/once Leggett is ready to play, we sign him to a player contract. 
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booch
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« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2017, 03:26:43 PM »

So rehab/recovery has changed that much in the last 4-5 years? 
Yeah it has...same with knees..I experienced it first hand with 2 total reconstructions  (ACL and PCL first time...ACL, PCL and MCL second time) 5 years apart roughly and first recover/rehab to be back on filed was just over 13 months I believe, and second time was around 9 months.

A lot of that was to do with surgery becoming less intrusive and the technique more refined, as well as the knowledge and learning from past rehab programs and training with return from injuries and best practices has allowed for faster recovery time and the odds of a player coming back just as good, if not better very high. A lot of times now guys come back in better shape/condition *** pre-injury as the rehab and training now encompasses total body as the player works to get back and comes back a better athlete

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gbill2004
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« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2017, 05:21:15 PM »

Yeah it has...same with knees..I experienced it first hand with 2 total reconstructions  (ACL and PCL first time...ACL, PCL and MCL second time) 5 years apart roughly and first recover/rehab to be back on filed was just over 13 months I believe, and second time was around 9 months.

A lot of that was to do with surgery becoming less intrusive and the technique more refined, as well as the knowledge and learning from past rehab programs and training with return from injuries and best practices has allowed for faster recovery time and the odds of a player coming back just as good, if not better very high. A lot of times now guys come back in better shape/condition *** pre-injury as the rehab and training now encompasses total body as the player works to get back and comes back a better athlete

Good to hear! 
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GCn18
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« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2017, 07:21:06 PM »

Maybe Leggett can have a coaching gig with the team next season?

We could do like Fantuz, however, the second he steps on the field any money earned as a coach must be included in the SMS as well as his player salary. Therefore, it would all depend on how much of the season he was going to miss I guess.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2017, 08:14:31 PM »

We could do like Fantuz, however, the second he steps on the field any money earned as a coach must be included in the SMS as well as his player salary. Therefore, it would all depend on how much of the season he was going to miss I guess.

Whaaaat?  Are you sure?  That makes no sense at all, unless he's actually working out in pads on the field...  dod Kackert work as a strength coach for Tor and come back to play? 

Also, Fantuz wasn't a coach, was he?  Wasn't a "scout"...

If that is so, then there is no advantage to that idea, he's better off signed to a contract and put on the 6game immediately...
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blueandgoldguy
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« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2017, 12:34:02 AM »

With Leggett being over 30 years of age it's unlikely he will come back and be the player he once was, less intrusive surgery or not.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2017, 12:57:41 AM »

Whaaaat?  Are you sure?  That makes no sense at all, unless he's actually working out in pads on the field...  dod Kackert work as a strength coach for Tor and come back to play? 

Also, Fantuz wasn't a coach, was he?  Wasn't a "scout"...

If that is so, then there is no advantage to that idea, he's better off signed to a contract and put on the 6game immediately...
It makes no sense because it?s not true.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2017, 02:36:36 PM »

Who are the top 5 Bomber free agents that they need to re-sign.

My picks are: 1) S.Bryant   DONE
                    2) M.Leggett
                    3) TJ Heath
                    4) C.Randallle
                    5) W.Dressler  DONE
               
I really hope they sign these guys, they are core players, some all-stars.

 
With Leggett being over 30 years of age it's unlikely he will come back and be the player he once was, less intrusive surgery or not.

I have it from a reliable source that Leggett is ahead of schedule on rehab, and will easily be 100% ready for camp.  I have no doubt that he will be a force in the CFL again this year.  Hopefully, he will be doing it in Blue and Gold.

So, my new 5 are:

Randle and Leggett are top priority signings from a leadership standpoint.  These guys are heart and soul, and we need them back.  I hope we don't lose them over a few sheckles.

Heath is a top priority from a purely performance standpoint.  Not sure what hos leadership ability is, he hasn't been here that long, but he can flat out play, and we need that.

Thomas is another heart and soul guy, fantastic ratio guy that can start and is surprising on teams.  Great in the rotation with Faith and Corney if we don't get Westerman back.

Jumping to the other side of the ball (where all of our current signings have happened), Normand is my surprise 5th player we need to sign.  Solid in the jumbo package, good out of the backfield, and can sub in at RB in a pinch in a backup role, and a great special teams guy, his versatility is needed.

Lets get some of these D guys signed... 




« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 05:29:56 PM by theaardvark » Logged

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GCn18
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« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2017, 02:52:40 PM »

It makes no sense because it?s not true.

Read the CBA and then comment. It is absolute fact. The second you play a down all salary paid to you by your organization for any reason counts against the cap. Otherwise the Riders would have 300 coaches.
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GCn18
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« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2017, 02:54:01 PM »

Whaaaat?  Are you sure?  That makes no sense at all, unless he's actually working out in pads on the field...  dod Kackert work as a strength coach for Tor and come back to play? 

Also, Fantuz wasn't a coach, was he?  Wasn't a "scout"...

If that is so, then there is no advantage to that idea, he's better off signed to a contract and put on the 6game immediately...

The advantage is you keep him off the open market once he is healed.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2017, 06:02:46 AM »

Read the CBA and then comment. It is absolute fact. The second you play a down all salary paid to you by your organization for any reason counts against the cap. Otherwise the Riders would have 300 coaches.

So. paying him as a coach or trainer is dumb.  Becasue if he ever does play, that salary goes against SMS, even if he was injured at the time (a 6 game IR eligible).  Far better for him to be signed and placed on the 6 game, where none of his salary counts against the cap. 

Here's one for ya, if you know he's going to be out for at least the first six weeks, can you structure his deal such that he gets a lion share of his pay during that time?  Or sign him to a big deal, and renegotiate once he's off the IR?
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gbill2004
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« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2017, 09:09:23 AM »

So. paying him as a coach or trainer is dumb.  Becasue if he ever does play, that salary goes against SMS, even if he was injured at the time (a 6 game IR eligible).  Far better for him to be signed and placed on the 6 game, where none of his salary counts against the cap.
Ticats aren't stupid. They would have then stuck Fantuz on the 6 game IR if that was most beneficial to them. I'll wait for this CBA reference to be posted here. I took a quick look at the CBA and don't see that article, but it's 177 pages so I just might not see it.

And IF it is true, the workaround would be to pay the player a lower salary as a coach/consultant. For example, $500/week as a coach and then as a player, $10,000/week. Still more beneficial from a cap perspective though to stick the player on the 6 game IR though, from a cap perspective.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 04:03:39 PM by gbill2004 » Logged
sweep the leg
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« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2017, 03:49:34 PM »

Ticats aren?t stupid. They would have then stuck Fantuz on the 6 game IR if that was most beneficial to them. I?ll wait for this CBA reference to be posted here. I took a quick look at the CBA and don?t see that article, but it?s 177 pages so I just might not see it.

And IF it is true, the workaround would be to pay the player a lower salary as a coach/consultant. For example, $500/week as a coach and then as a player, $10,000/week. Still more beneficial from a cap perspective though to stick the player on the 6 game IR though, from a cap perspective.

This does seem logical. Six gaming him would be the smart move if coaching money went on the cap once he suited up.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2017, 04:28:57 PM »

The advantage is you keep him off the open market once he is healed.

How does it keep him off the market?  If he doesn't have a valid CFL playing contract (or one in a league that has a reciprocal agreement honoring contracts), he can be signed by anyone, regardless if he has a coaching deal or broadcast deal, or job at McDonalds...  but while he is on the 6 game, he is your property, with no SMS cost.  The ONLY downside is if you want to take him off early, and that he can't practice with the team for the first 4 weeks.  Neither of which were any concern with Fantuz.

The only upside in giving him a non player contract if if is going to count again st the cap once activatred is that he can actually do a job for the team that he might consider post playing, and if he never rehabs enough to play, that pay is not on the balance sheet as player salary (different from SMS, and irrelevant from a non-accounting standpoint) .
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« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2017, 05:38:55 PM »

As of now not one of our defensive players, who are free agents have been re-signed...Could the decision on Hall be holding these guys back....I sure as heck hope not ,and I sure wish we could hear what the definitive plans for 18' are, and it looks like a few of our free agents would as well...
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« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2017, 05:06:53 PM »

Article 14.09 of the 2014 CBA states that any compensation or gift rendered to a player by the member club for anything other than practice or gameplay is exempt from the SMS to a maximum of $2000 per calendar year and any any excess to that counts on the SMS.

The advantage to the club is that they can pay for Fantuz's accommodations and meals to keep him around the club for leadership, as these are exempt from the CBA and they likely pay him some walk around money and the signing bonus he was going to get no matter what. In exchange Fantuz gets paid something while injured and probably gives back some term. You are only allowed so many players under contract, so this allows the TiCats to have the maximum number of healthy bodies they can, while keeping Fantuz happy and in the TiCat fold.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2017, 05:43:27 PM »

Article 14.09 of the 2014 CBA states that any compensation or gift rendered to a player by the member club for anything other than practice or gameplay is exempt from the SMS to a maximum of $2000 per calendar year and any any excess to that counts on the SMS.

The advantage to the club is that they can pay for Fantuz's accommodations and meals to keep him around the club for leadership, as these are exempt from the CBA and they likely pay him some walk around money and the signing bonus he was going to get no matter what. In exchange Fantuz gets paid something while injured and probably gives back some term. You are only allowed so many players under contract, so this allows the TiCats to have the maximum number of healthy bodies they can, while keeping Fantuz happy and in the TiCat fold.

Or they can sign him and put him on the 6 game and have zero SMS issues.
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GCn18
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« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2017, 05:46:40 PM »

Or they can sign him and put him on the 6 game and have zero SMS issues.

They could have done that as well. I don't know why they didn't. All I know is that any money he made coaching counted against the cap except for the first 2k.

It could be that they legitimately wanted to train Andy for the front office while he was out and if he was under a player's contract they could only have him for 4 hours a day in any official capacity. He is 33 after all and maybe he wanted to explore and learn about life after football....maybe the Cats felt that was a good investment in the future. Maybe Andy took wetback wages to do this, so that he could have that experience.

At the time he signed on for front office work it was still up in the air whether he'd ever be able to return. His injury was significant and it would be months before he could even practice again. Him coming back was the hope, of course, but not a certainty.
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« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2017, 09:43:50 PM »

When he signs with the front office, he's not a player, so he's not bound by the CBA. He doesn't become a player until he signs a players contract. After that point in time, the CBA comes into effect. I seriously doubt it's retroactive to anything that the club has paid him before the players contract is signed, so everything before that is SMS exempt.
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« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2017, 09:45:13 PM »

When he signs with the front office, he's not a player, so he's not bound by the CBA. He doesn't become a player until he signs a players contract. After that point in time, the CBA comes into effect. I seriously doubt it's retroactive to anything that the club has paid him before the players contract is signed, so everything before that is SMS exempt.
That?s my interpretation as well.
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GCn18
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« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2017, 12:48:01 PM »

When he signs with the front office, he's not a player, so he's not bound by the CBA. He doesn't become a player until he signs a players contract. After that point in time, the CBA comes into effect. I seriously doubt it's retroactive to anything that the club has paid him before the players contract is signed, so everything before that is SMS exempt.

Actually, I did some more research on this last night and it appears that Andy's front office salary was exempt from the cap. The league granted the special exemption from the SMS when Hamilton applied for it prior to Fantuz signing on. The permission was granted after the league consulted with all member teams and the CFLPA and under the following conditions. The conditions were that Hamilton could not pay him more than a certain amount, that Fantuz's contract when returning would constitute fair market value for the remainder of the games played, he would compensate the union for the dues owed on his front office salary, and that he would actually be working in the front office in some capacity, and that he could not be signed to a player contract or PR deal for at least 8 games into the season without all salary counting against the cap. This, apparently, is the same deal that Toronto had with Kackert. Drew Edwards had a video blog about this last year outlining these terms.
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sweep the leg
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« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2017, 01:10:49 PM »

Nope, it's spelled out pretty plainly in the CBA that any payment by the club in the current year for any reason counts against the cap the second a player contract is executed in that calendar year. It specifically states that any payment in that calendar year for anything other than practice or gameplay counts against the SMS. Even Drew Edwards stated it last year in his blog.

http://www.3downnation.com/2017/05/18/theories-ticats-signed-andy-fantuz-front-office-deal/

This is Drew Edwards on how it doesn't count against the cap.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2017, 02:23:12 PM »

Actually, I did some more research on this last night and it appears that Andy's front office salary was exempt from the cap. The league granted the special exemption from the SMS when Hamilton applied for it prior to Fantuz signing on. The permission was granted after the league consulted with all member teams and the CFLPA and under the following conditions. The conditions were that Hamilton could not pay him more than a certain amount, that Fantuz's contract when returning would constitute fair market value for the remainder of the games played, he would compensate the union for the dues owed on his front office salary, and that he would actually be working in the front office in some capacity, and that he could not be signed to a player contract or PR deal for at least 8 games into the season without all salary counting against the cap. This, apparently, is the same deal that Toronto had with Kackert. Drew Edwards had a video blog about this last year outlining these terms.

So, you're saying that... umm... you were wrong?   Wink
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GCn18
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« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2017, 04:31:17 PM »

So, you're saying that... umm... you were wrong?   Wink

Yep.
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GCn18
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« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2017, 04:35:43 PM »

http://www.3downnation.com/2017/05/18/theories-ticats-signed-andy-fantuz-front-office-deal/

This is Drew Edwards on how it doesn't count against the cap.

He, also, has a video blog where he goes into much more detail. A friend at another forum was kind enough to give me the details of the agreement the Ticats had with the league. I will ask him for a link to Drew's video blog.
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« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2018, 07:52:40 PM »

#Bombers GM Kyle Walters admits it's going to be difficult for team to sign all three of DBs Chris Randle, T.J. Heath and Moe Leggett. #CFL via @Ted_Wyman
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« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2018, 07:58:05 PM »

#Bombers GM Kyle Walters admits it's going to be difficult for team to sign all three of DBs Chris Randle, T.J. Heath and Moe Leggett. #CFL via @Ted_Wyman

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« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2018, 08:01:07 PM »


Hmmmm...if I had to pick 2 of the 3, I'd go with Randle and Leggett, but Leggett's injury throws a wrench in that thinking.  I do think Heath is the most replaceable of the three though. 
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bunker
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« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2018, 09:26:09 PM »

#Bombers GM Kyle Walters admits it's going to be difficult for team to sign all three of DBs Chris Randle, T.J. Heath and Moe Leggett. #CFL via @Ted_Wyman
This is disappointing to me. We had one of the worst defences in the league, and need to improve. We have brought back our DC. Now we are likely not going to be able to even keep all of our best cover guys. Where is the improvement going to come from? I'm pinning my hopes on a big improvement at MLB, I guess, as well as any improvement that may come from changes in position coaches and O'Shea's involvement.
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gbill2004
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« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2018, 09:28:40 PM »

This is disappointing to me. We had one of the worst defences in the league, and need to improve. We have brought back our DC. Now we are likely not going to be able to even keep all of our best cover guys. Where is the improvement going to come from? I'm pinning my hopes on a big improvement at MLB, I guess, as well as any improvement that may come from changes in position coaches and O'Shea's involvement.
One of the media guys on twitter suggested Walters will definitely be looking to make a splash in free agency, so we have that to look forward to.  Hopefully Walters has been tampering and already has some deals in place for an upgrade in the secondary, and maybe MLB. 
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« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2018, 09:40:51 PM »

One of the media guys on twitter suggested Walters will definitely be looking to make a splash in free agency, so we have that to look forward to.  Hopefully Walters has been tampering and already has some deals in place for an upgrade in the secondary, and maybe MLB. 
I  can see him actively pursuing a MLB in free agency, and hope this is the case. I can't see the logic in pursuing a DB, when you still have 3 all-stars to resign on your own team. Unless their asks are way out of line, of course.
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« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2018, 09:46:17 PM »

I  can see him actively pursuing a MLB in free agency, and hope this is the case. I can't see the logic in pursuing a DB, when you still have 3 all-stars to resign on your own team. Unless their asks are way out of line, of course.
Maybe there?s an up and coming DB that the Bombers like who is on another team, sort of like Darvin Adams. 
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bunker
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« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2018, 09:56:24 PM »

Maybe there?s an up and coming DB that the Bombers like who is on another team, sort of like Darvin Adams. 
That approach worries me. They liked Roc Charmichael also. I'd rather have the proven vets back at strong side secondary. Unfortunately, its probably a case of having to make cap space for other priorities, like Westerman and possibly a MLB.
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booch
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« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2018, 10:04:48 PM »

Well easy to see Randall and Leggett will be the guys back...both are arguably the  best at their position in the league.. Heath good.. but not best and can be replaced

Walker is going to be better..man he had some flaws but for a 21 yr old he is a real talent.. And if u watch tape he always hustled and plays all plays right to the end..hes a keeper

I'd also like another db who is more physical.. Heath isn't that type.
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blue girl
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« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2018, 10:36:06 PM »

I consider Leggett and Randle the top priorities. Hopefully we can get a starting DB in free agency.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2018, 10:40:59 PM »

Impossible to argue against anybody's thoughts regarding these 3 top players. The one thing we all agree about is that these are 3 very talented players.
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« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2018, 11:13:02 PM »

One of the media guys on twitter suggested Walters will definitely be looking to make a splash in free agency, so we have that to look forward to.  Hopefully Walters has been tampering and already has some deals in place for an upgrade in the secondary, and maybe MLB. 

How can you be active in FA if you can't even sign your own guys?
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gbill2004
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« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2018, 11:21:56 PM »

How can you be active in FA if you can't even sign your own guys?
Is that a serious question? 

Because some free agents might be cheaper than your own guys  Roll Eyes
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Tehedra
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« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2018, 11:25:14 PM »

Or you could feel that your veteran player money could be better spent on another position and believe your over all talent will be better.
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1chad
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« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2018, 11:34:37 PM »

Leggat
Randle

resigned already
Bryant
Medlock
Dressler

next tier

TJ Heath

On to free agency - another deep threat WR
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theaardvark
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« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2018, 11:56:04 PM »

Is that a serious question? 

Because some free agents might be cheaper than your own guys  Roll Eyes



Seriously?  Sure, cheaper, but better?  Anyone equal or better is going to be getting more money...


Or you could feel that your veteran player money could be better spent on another position and believe your over all talent will be better.

Better spent than on the only part of our secondary that actually worked last year?  Other than upgrading MLB, which is where I could see a "splash", and should already be in the budget (which might be why we can't sign all three) where do you see another position where money is better spent than on top quality, character guys that we already know and love?
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gbill2004
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« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2018, 12:04:14 AM »

Seriously?  Sure, cheaper, but better?  Anyone equal or better is going to be getting more money...
Yes, seriously. If you have good CFL scouts who scout other teams rosters. Do you remember the Darvin Adams signing?  Chris Randle wasn?t technically a free agent signing, but he?s another good example.
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Tehedra
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« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2018, 03:05:19 AM »



Seriously?  Sure, cheaper, but better?  Anyone equal or better is going to be getting more money...


Better spent than on the only part of our secondary that actually worked last year?  Other than upgrading MLB, which is where I could see a "splash", and should already be in the budget (which might be why we can't sign all three) where do you see another position where money is better spent than on top quality, character guys that we already know and love?

Aards, for being a business owner I'm surprised you don't understand the concept that you can improve the bottom line by making adjustments to your inventory. I mean treat each player as a number, give each player a score, a cost and a risk. Then apply limits like X can be spent in Y category, you can only have so many N players and N types of players and instead of doing financial forecasting do talent pool forecasting and comparisons. Different combinations of quality products can yield or net different results. Even if all are valuable, high grade products an analysis can be done to determine over all composition improvement.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2018, 04:20:54 AM »

Aards, for being a business owner I'm surprised you don't understand the concept that you can improve the bottom line by making adjustments to your inventory. I mean treat each player as a number, give each player a score, a cost and a risk. Then apply limits like X can be spent in Y category, you can only have so many N players and N types of players and instead of doing financial forecasting do talent pool forecasting and comparisons. Different combinations of quality products can yield or net different results. Even if all are valuable, high grade products an analysis can be done to determine over all composition improvement.

I am fully aware of how to improve things by adjusting where you can... my question is where?  Where do you improve the team with a FA other than the DB corps?  MLB, sure, maybe a WR?  But other than that, DB's are key.  And these are three of the top in their positions.  Can't get better than them...
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2018, 02:02:46 PM »

I am fully aware of how to improve things by adjusting where you can... my question is where?  Where do you improve the team with a FA other than the DB corps?  MLB, sure, maybe a WR?  But other than that, DB's are key.  And these are three of the top in their positions.  Can't get better than them...

No, not sure or maybe regarding either MLB or WR. It is imperative to improve both positions and via FA seems like the ideal way to do it. The team needs proven talent at those positions; it can't afford to gamble on unproven unknowns.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2018, 02:09:01 PM »

No, not sure or maybe regarding either MLB or WR. It is imperative to improve both positions and via FA seems like the ideal way to do it. The team needs proven talent at those positions; it can't afford to gamble on unproven unknowns.

I don't disagree but on the other hand, we can't afford to sign all of our current big name free agents so paying top dollar for other team's seems like that might also be tough. Ideally, it would be awesome to use free agency, and perhaps Walters has money earmarked for that, but out of necessity we really need scouting to come through for us this year. I think one of the only differences between our 12-6 team last year and a really overwhelming, dominate Grey Cup favoured team is 2 or 3 standouts on entry deals. You've got to find those yourself.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2018, 02:10:11 PM »

No, not sure or maybe regarding either MLB or WR. It is imperative to improve both positions and via FA seems like the ideal way to do it. The team needs proven talent at those positions; it can't afford to gamble on unproven unknowns.

Which is why you re-sign your own guys instead of trying to find a bargain in FA.  Adams was a "bargain" FA find, sure, and it worked out pretty good, but if you want a proven talent, you will have to pay.  You aren't getting a proven talent at a bargain price, ever, unless he has baggage or injuries.

If I can sign someone elses proven DB and it costs me close to what my guy is asking, no way I'm not keeping guys we know and love.  
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2018, 02:22:16 PM »

I don't disagree but on the other hand, we can't afford to sign all of our current big name free agents so paying top dollar for other team's seems like that might also be tough. Ideally, it would be awesome to use free agency, and perhaps Walters has money earmarked for that, but out of necessity we really need scouting to come through for us this year. I think one of the only differences between our 12-6 team last year and a really overwhelming, dominate Grey Cup favoured team is 2 or 3 standouts on entry deals. You've got to find those yourself.

Paying for a MLB and WR - both areas of need - shouldn't put the team in a bad position SMS-wise. Despite their best efforts, the scouting dept. still hasn't been able to unearth a standout player at either position, so consider my faith shaken in that regard. More than anything, I don't want to see another defense hindered by sub-par or even flat out pathetic MLBing.

Which is why you re-sign your own guys instead of trying to find a bargain in FA.  Adams was a "bargain" FA find, sure, and it worked out pretty good, but if you want a proven talent, you will have to pay.  You aren't getting a proven talent at a bargain price, ever, unless he has baggage or injuries.

If I can sign someone elses proven DB and it costs me close to what my guy is asking, no way I'm not keeping guys we know and love.  

Except you forgot the fact the Bombers don't currently have a worthwhile option at MLB or WR.
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« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2018, 02:23:26 PM »

Except you forgot the fact the Bombers don't currently have a worthwhile option at MLB or WR.
I think Aards is referring to our DBs, Heath and Randle. 
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« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2018, 02:38:22 PM »

Except you forgot the fact the Bombers don't currently have a worthwhile option at MLB or WR.

Someone had suggested that we can use the money that would be saved by letting one or more of Leggett/Randle/Heath go to improve our team more in FA on another position on the team.  That the team would be better with the same total expenditure of money by improving on other positions.  I was just wonder what positions you could upgrade that would make you forget about the contributions Leggett/Randle/Heath made.

Randle and Leggett are must signs, 2 or 3 year deals.  I love Heath's ball hawking, but you know he's going to get big offers elsewhere due to his age/performance. 

Are there stats on DB targets?  I'd love to see a breakdown by position on the targets our DBs had.  Did Heath and Randle scare off QBs from throwing their way?  Did they get targeted more after Leggett was out?  Were Walker and Alexander overtargetted?
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2018, 02:47:03 PM »

Heath and Randle had virtually the same stats for DT's and int's. I'm still of the view that a top HB is more a critical player but a shutdown CB is no slouch either.

Would also think the inside HB's get more targets lining up against the slots. Not sure if there are published stats about that.

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« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2018, 06:03:32 PM »

Someone had suggested that we can use the money that would be saved by letting one or more of Leggett/Randle/Heath go to improve our team more in FA on another position on the team.  That the team would be better with the same total expenditure of money by improving on other positions.  I was just wonder what positions you could upgrade that would make you forget about the contributions Leggett/Randle/Heath made.

Randle and Leggett are must signs, 2 or 3 year deals.  I love Heath's ball hawking, but you know he's going to get big offers elsewhere due to his age/performance. 

Are there stats on DB targets?  I'd love to see a breakdown by position on the targets our DBs had.  Did Heath and Randle scare off QBs from throwing their way?  Did they get targeted more after Leggett was out?  Were Walker and Alexander overtargetted?


I think its a bit of a domino effect. If you make the decision to move on from Hurl, and you don't think Jake/Faith are ideal at DT, then you really have to go after Westerman (or Laurent or Laing) to make the ratio work, allowing you to play an import MLB. So having money to sign Westerman and if possible an experienced MLB becomes priority one on the defense, to the point where making sure all of Heath, Randle and Leggett come back has to take a back seat. They were all great last year, and it would be great to have them all back, but to just sign them all now at higher contracts, and not have enough left to sign a ratio changer on the D-line, and a very good free agent MLB, means we are just reproducing what we did last year. And that was clearly not working well enough.

No question QBs threw away from Heath and Randle's side of the field. They got burned occasionally, but not like on the strong side.
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