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Author Topic: Coaching change  (Read 2733 times)
swansong
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2017, 01:08:58 AM »

The same defense (minus westerman) got us to 10-4.

They need to improve from last night's performance for sure but it isn't like they haven't played well enough to win games.  They are not dominate but they can be capable, good enough to win a grey cup??  Maybe / maybe not. 

Which has been incumbent on the offence putting up 30+ points per game. If the offence struggles the D, apart from last week, has not shown it can keep us in games.

In this case I think I would prefer to be a realistic/cautious "chicken little" than an ostrich with my head in the sand.
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elder
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2017, 01:10:38 AM »

Which has been incumbent on the offence putting up 30+ points per game. If the offence struggles the D, apart from last week, has not shown it can keep us in games.

In this case I think I would prefer to be a realistic/cautious "chicken little" than an ostrich with my head in the sand.

Spot on.
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The Zipp
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Who gives a flying Buck...


« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2017, 01:14:01 AM »

Which has been incumbent on the offence putting up 30+ points per game. If the offence struggles the D, apart from last week, has not shown it can keep us in games.

In this case I think I would prefer to be a realistic/cautious "chicken little" than an ostrich with my head in the sand.

Pretty much everybody on this board has had concerns about our defense..
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Blue and Golden Delicious
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 01:34:06 AM »

Which has been incumbent on the offence putting up 30+ points per game. If the offence struggles the D, apart from last week, has not shown it can keep us in games.

In this case I think I would prefer to be a realistic/cautious "chicken little" than an ostrich with my head in the sand.

We run a defence (love it or hate it) that thrives on taking the ball away, while giving up big yardage. The style of defence compliments our offence, which is one of the highest scoring in the league. That is to say, a big part of why our offense scores a lot is because our defence gives them the ball a lot - there's a corolation there.To act like the offence or defence are mutually exclusive units not at all working in concert with each other is being intentionally obtuse.

I would prefer that out defence gave up fewer points. I'd also prefer to have a more athletic MLB. But to imply that we're 10-4 despite our defence is silly. Football is a 3 phase game and there's no way you get to 10-4 without integral support from your defensive unit. Also, it's not hiding your head in the sand to call out sensationalism with reason.

PS: There's a whole other thread on this topic where someone also pointed out that many teams with average defences have won championships. So although people love to drop the "defence wins championships" line, it's more of an notion than a fact.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 01:35:53 AM by Blue and Golden Delicious » Logged

And I will reach my field of battle by any means at my disposal
And when I get there, I will arrive violently
I will rip the heart from my enemy, and leave it bleeding on the ground
Because he cannot stop me
Who am I? I AM A CHAMPION!
swansong
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2017, 02:05:44 AM »

We run a defence (love it or hate it) that thrives on taking the ball away, while giving up big yardage.

And big points. Over 30+ average. Without an offence putting up 30+ points average this team would be 4-10

The style of defence compliments our offence, which is one of the highest scoring in the league. That is to say, a big part of why our offense scores a lot is because our defence gives them the ball a lot - there's a corolation there.To act like the offence or defence are mutually exclusive units not at all working in concert with each other is being intentionally obtuse.

The only "compliment" is that the D gives up just slightly fewer points than the offence scores

I would prefer that out defence gave up fewer points. I'd also prefer to have a more athletic MLB. But to imply that we're 10-4 despite our defence is silly.

No, it's not. Unless you're suggesting we still would have won 10 games with an offence that only scores 20 points on average. If so . . . that's obtuse.

Football is a 3 phase game and there's no way you get to 10-4 without integral support from your defensive unit. Also, it's not hiding your head in the sand to call out sensationalism with reason.

It's "sensationalism" to accurately describe our defensive effort this year? Interesting

PS: There's a whole other thread on this topic where someone also pointed out that many teams with average defences have won championships. So although people love to drop the "defence wins championships" line, it's more of an notion than a fact.

It's a fact that you only win if the D gives up fewer points than the O scores. If Nichols is out there is no doubt our offensive production will suffer and then we'll see how "sensational" the concerns are.
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Blue and Golden Delicious
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2017, 02:44:11 AM »

TBH, I'm not really sure how to address anything you've said here, because its all based in fiction, but I'll try...

Our defense doesn't thrive on giving up big points. An unfortunate issue with Hall's defensive system, which leads the league in INTs, is 3rd in FF, and 4th in sacks, is that it appears to also be very susceptible to giving up yards and points. That's a give/take that the club appears (at least to date) to be OK with. If we were last in the aforementioned categories and last in yards surrendered and points allowed I'm 99% positive Hall would not be our DC. None of the above takes our early issues solidifying one half of the secondary into account (or our additional personnel issues at LB), which contributed to a lot of those points, but that's another discussion.

I could just as easily say that without a defense so good at taking the ball away our offense wouldn't be scoring 30+ points a game - but I also don't like to debate in hypotheticals. If you honestly don't believe those two things are related, I'm not sure what to say.

Most of your responses seem to be based in this hypothetical argument about us having a worse record if our offense sucked. We would have a worse record if our offense sucked - so would Calgary. But that's not an indictment of our defense, it's a fictional scenario that has no bearing on reality. The reality is that we have an average defense that's high risk/reward and good at taking the ball away, which allows our high-powered offense to score lots of points more easily. See the correlation? That correlation means that our 10-4 record is not despite our defense.
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And I will reach my field of battle by any means at my disposal
And when I get there, I will arrive violently
I will rip the heart from my enemy, and leave it bleeding on the ground
Because he cannot stop me
Who am I? I AM A CHAMPION!
In Motion
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2017, 02:54:02 AM »

Our defense is consistently getting shredded. Long marches down the field against us many times this year.
I think we're about 4 players short of having a solid defense. That's a lot of weak spots!
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swansong
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2017, 03:04:30 AM »

TBH, I'm not really sure how to address anything you've said here, because its all based in fiction,

Exaggerate much?

It's fiction to say that the D gives up 30+ on average? It's fiction to say that stat is near the bottom of the league? It's fiction to say that without an offence at the top of the league in scoring we'd be a dumpster fire? It's fiction to say if Nichols is out our numbers will drop?

No point discussing it with you. One can't see what one doesn't want to see.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 03:14:54 AM by swansong » Logged
Blue and Golden Delicious
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2017, 03:20:58 AM »

Exaggerate much?

It's fiction to say that the D gives up 30+ on average? It's fiction to say that stat is near the bottom of the league? It's fiction to say that without an offence at the top of the league in scoring we'd be a dumpster fire? It's fiction to say if Nichols is out our numbers will drop?

No point discussing it with you. One can't see what one doesn't want to see.

That was literally the first line of an almost 3 paragraph post. But cool; good chat.
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And I will reach my field of battle by any means at my disposal
And when I get there, I will arrive violently
I will rip the heart from my enemy, and leave it bleeding on the ground
Because he cannot stop me
Who am I? I AM A CHAMPION!
swansong
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Posts: 701



« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2017, 03:24:02 AM »

That was literally the first line of an almost 3 paragraph post. But cool; good chat.

Hard to take the rest seriously when you start with hyperbolic hogwash
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Blue and Golden Delicious
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2017, 12:02:32 PM »

Hard to take the rest seriously when you start with hyperbolic hogwash

EDIT: I wrote a big response but then, reviewing my above posts, there's no point. I've presented my position pretty thoroughly. Choose to address that actual position, or not, it's up to you. Cheers.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 12:14:34 PM by Blue and Golden Delicious » Logged

And I will reach my field of battle by any means at my disposal
And when I get there, I will arrive violently
I will rip the heart from my enemy, and leave it bleeding on the ground
Because he cannot stop me
Who am I? I AM A CHAMPION!
GOLDMEMBER
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R.I.P. BLUE BONGER


« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2017, 12:36:01 PM »

Where's the Richie Hall thread?
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I LOSHT MY MEMBER IN AN UNFORTUNATE SHMELTING ACCSHIDENT!
Horseman
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« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2017, 07:01:22 PM »

Unless we miss the playoffs or never win another game there is little chance MOS fires Hall. If we win a playoff game there is zero chance of firing Hall.  MOS won't do it unless there is some tension present between the two of them that nobody is talking about

You may be right as MOS is loyal to a fault, however, I am hoping Walters and Miller can see our problem is Our D under Hall and will take action. They are in the business to make our team better and even the fans can see our D is terrible under Hall, so they should be able to see it as well and do something about it. Take the decision out of MOS hands if he is unwilling to replace Hall with Thorpe.
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NorthernSkunk
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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2017, 07:06:10 PM »

You may be right as MOS is loyal to a fault, however, I am hoping Walters and Miller can see our problem is Our D under Hall and will take action. They are in the business to make our team better and even the fans can see our D is terrible under Hall, so they should be able to see it as well and do something about it. Take the decision out of MOS hands if he is unwilling to replace Hall with Thorpe.

I think calling the D terrible is a bit harsh. And has Thorpe ever said he wanted to go to Winnipeg , I mean he is not a guaranteed replacement if Hall was fired right ?
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Horseman
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« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2017, 07:22:49 PM »

I think calling the D terrible is a bit harsh. And has Thorpe ever said he wanted to go to Winnipeg , I mean he is not a guaranteed replacement if Hall was fired right ?

If you don’t want to call our defence terrible, then you pick a descriptor for a defence that can’t stop the run or pass all year except for one game. Does Thorpe have to come out publically and say he wants to come here before we approach him and offer him a contract? He better be the replacement when Hall is fired.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 07:24:41 PM by Horseman » Logged
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