JY'S D: Etcheverry/Jones/Hall 2.0?

[Slingin Sammy]

I know many on this forum remember our D from 2014 under Gary Etcheverry. It was a D that was vulnerable to the run but relatively stout against the pass.  Etcheverry would consistently rush 3 and drop 9 into coverage; but the 3 he would rush weren't always D linemen...he valued speed over size...we often lined up a 220 L Backer at nose and DBs at D End while dropping smaller dbs into coverage...the overall stats win/loss results were horrible.  He was fired shortly after he was hired.

Fast forward to 2024 and we've seen other iterations of the "rush 3 drop 9" philosophy...C Jones is probably the biggest proponent..Richie Hall has also been a proponent.  JY has had exposure as a player and coach to each of these philosophies...and he's seemed to adapt it to being effective against current CFL offences in his first year as D Coordinator.

Below are some quotes and links to old articles from Etch's tenure.  Consistent themes between the two philosophies include valuing speed and versatility on D, and a stronger focus on defending against the  pass. In 2014, less emphasis on defending the run resulted in larger O lines and R backs gashing our D.

I think that perhaps the best move we made as an organization over the previous off season was to promote JY to the D Coordinator position.  It seems apparent to me that he's adapted what he's learned over the years as a player and coach into a system that is effective against today's CFL Offences...given what I've observed during games and practices this year, and during this week, I'm confident that he has a plan that's tailor made to minimize Sasks strengths on O...

Anyone else remember Etch?  Anyone else see an evolution of the rush 3 drop 9 philosophy in JY'S system?



https://search.app?link=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bluebombers.com%2F2014%2F12%2F17%2Farticle-osheas-decision-to-release-etcheverry%2F&utm_campaign=aga&utm_source=agsadl1%2Csh%2Fx%2Fgs%2Fm2%2F4

"There's the philosophy that the CFL is a quarterback driven pass-first league, and we're in the West and teams run the ball. I just think we were more committed to stopping the pass, and we lacked a little balance in that regard. The sense of how teams were going to try and beat us, through the air or the history of the league that would suggest it's a passing league, in this season, against us it wasn't."

https://search.app?link=https%3A%2F%2Fwinnipegsun.com%2F2014%2F12%2F17%2Fbombers-fire-etcheverry&utm_campaign=aga&utm_source=agsadl1%2Csh%2Fx%2Fgs%2Fm2%2F4

"His preference to use smaller players for their speed made the Bombers vulnerable to big, physical offensive lines and running backs."

[Sir Blue and Gold]

Etcheverry might have liked dropping nine but he didn't really have a play book and was unorthodox in essentially everything he did. It was very much chaos for the sake of chaos and there was no way to fix or adjust to things. Mad scientist gets thrown around too much but he was closer to that and it was ultimately a terrible and flawed defense.

Younger's defense is not that. He likes to drop nine but there are concepts to limit the run game and it's structured and organized and schemed.

I am not sure Younger would like the comparison but it's interesting, as you point out, he was exposed to all those systems.

[Blueforlife]

Dropping 9 is a league wide trend

[TecnoGenius]

Great post Slingin!

I don't remember much about the Etchasketch D, even though I still have all of those on my PVR.  Lots of explosions: and it wasn't just against the run, we had lots of busted pass coverages too.

Regarding the 3 man rush we employ a lot now: I think we've steadily ramped it up this season because we consistently got bad results pass-rushing 4.  I think as we saw it get more and more futile we did the only thing we could do: stop trying.  (I guess we could have instead chosen to blitz all the time, but we're not a big bruiser blitzing team.)

But I also think it's a response to so few teams these days being "running teams".  Not many teams anymore run like Cornish-CGY or Harris/Brady-WPG.  I think 2023 was the peak of non-running teams: think VAJ-led BC.  A few teams in 2024 are making more of an attempt, but they still aren't committed.

So if it's 2nd & long and you're 75% certain a pass is coming, and your 4 are pretty useless at pass-rush or the OL is just too darn good, why not drop 9?  Like was said, as long as you find ways to get defenders up if it's an unexpected run, you might make it work.

I've advocated for taking it further: drop 10, drop 11, drop 12.  Why not?  Their O is wasting 5 men on every down for the OL, and 1 is the QB, and likely a RB hovering.  You must be able to get a zone so dense something's gotta give.  Sounds crazy: but why not.

No matter if you drop 9 or more, as long as some guys are patrolling the flat to cut off the short slants/curls, they can make a play on an unexpected run or QB scramble.  I think this is what Younger has been doing.  When MTL is in 2nd & 17 in the GC this year, I don't think we'll give up that Cody 13Y freebie run...

It's a vast departure from Hall's "always stop the run" scheme.  And it's purposeful -- a trade off, a gamble, playing the odds.  So I (now) don't get too worked up if our D gives up a 20Y ground romp a couple/few times a game (except maybe for a TD): we seem to be ok giving those up in order to effect our normal pass-stop game.

And keep in mind all of this lets us spend virtually nothing on our DL, with just 1 modestly expensive player.

We shall see if this scheme pays off in the big games this year: first in the WDF, then in the GC.  If it does, it likely continues next season, and we likely don't see any splash DL FA signings.

[Slingin Sammy]

I've been impressed with his adaptability as a D Coordinator.   I haven't seen a stubbornness in his approach...at times we've blitzed, gone to traditional 4-3 sets, etc..  I am looking forward to seeing how he schemes against Sasks quick pass, dump and dink O...this O system has been effective against our D whether Sask runs it or Mtl (both run a lot of the same McAdoo/Maas concepts). 

I don't think we need to drop more than 9...but maybe we have all 9 be DBs...so we'd take out the Mic and Wil and replace them with DBs on passing downs.  We have roster room to carry more Imp DBs...and can bring pressure from depth when needed...

I'm just happy that we have a D Coordinator that's innovative and keeps us all guessing as to what he'll do against opposing Offences.  Hoping he calls a gem of a game on D like he did against BC in the shutout...and that the players execute the scheme...and tackle effectively limiting YAC.

[markf]

interesting article about letting Etch go.

seems like O'Shea was much less guarded  about what he said.

""There's the philosophy that the CFL is a quarterback driven pass-first league, and we're in the West and teams run the ball. I just think we were more committed to stopping the pass, and we lacked a little balance in that regard"

[markf]

rush 3.....remember way back when Don Mathews would do the opposite.... everyone tries to get to the quarterback. worked well for him.

[Slingin Sammy]

rush 3.....remember way back when Don Mathews would do the opposite.... everyone tries to get to the quarterback. worked well for him.

I remember Khari getting absolutely zero time to get plays off when we played Mtl and Matthews rushed everyone...we had zero answer...but we also had a terrible O line at the time.  Can't recall if LaPo was still our OC at the time?

[markf]

I remember Khari getting absolutely zero time to get plays off when we played Mtl and Matthews rushed everyone...we had zero answer...but we also had a terrible O line at the time.  Can't recall if LaPo was still our OC at the time?

I don't know....

I could never understand in those days why that all out attack was so hard to overcome.

[TecnoGenius]

I don't know....

I could never understand in those days why that all out attack was so hard to overcome.

Every possible blitz play should have your O planning a hot route, and I firmly believe you need to also have one that is a deep/go to a spot on the field.  Too many teams just have a hot route of a dump at the line or in the flat, and the LBers/DBs are cheating up to that one relief value to hose him when he catches it.

No, you need a deep throw-to-a-spot hot route too to exploit the almost certain man-2-man coverage beyond the flat.  The QB can chuck a high-arcing rainbow that takes a while to arrive, since he won't have much time in the pocket.  He can also do the deep deep drop back like BLM used to do so perfectly in CGY.  Drop drop drop, throw to a spot with one-on-one.

Since everyone's coming, there's no over the top help and as long as you chuck it as deep or deeper than your REC, there's no risk of INT.  If you make the play, it's an explosion and possible TD.  If not, you beat the sack anyhow.

I think SSK had such a route setup in the BB (or was is LDC?) when Emilus came down with a 50/50 1-on-1 on a mega-blitz.  I think also MTL beat our blitz with that in the GC.