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The Extra Point => Blue Bomber & CFL Discussion Forum => Topic started by: the paw on February 13, 2020, 02:47:44 PM



Title: A Touch of Realism
Post by: the paw on February 13, 2020, 02:47:44 PM
Okay, we are all still riding high off the amazing stretch run to bounce back and win the Cup, followed by retaining Willie Jefferson, a dominant defensive player and the most desired free agent this year.  But, even though the WBB did an amazing job retaining almost all of their talent, we need to acknowledge that there is some heavy lifting to do this year.  To wit:

1.  One can debate whether Collaros will be better at QB than Nichols, but statistically it's likely a wash.  Even though we have essentially an intact offence from the Grey Cup game, given the loss of Streveler we are weaker at QB depth, and while I have high hopes for Buck, he ain't Lapo just yet.  So offensively, we are a little weaker.

2.  Johnson was not a marquee signing, but let's assume he's an adequate replacement for the CFL interception leader.  We have still lost an all-star DHB, and retaining Jefferson cost us Nevis and Roh on the d-line rotation.  We have prospects who may be able to fill those roles, but as of right now, our overall defensive line assets are diminished.  Consequently, we are a little weaker on defence as well.

3. Even though we were strong through the playoffs, the team finished third in the West last year.  Now, if Collaros plays 18 games, then comparisons to last year's record are irrelevant.  But if he misses 3-5 games, then the comparison is more apt, particularly since we are not as deep at the position. 

4.  Other teams are making moves to address gaps and shortcomings, while our commitment to holding our roster intact has prevented us from doing so.  Now, just because another team has more roster churn doesn't mean they are necessarily adding more talent.  But what it does mean, is that teams that are dropping guys and adding others at least have a chance to overhaul their salary structure.  It is entirely possible that BC is much more competitive this year, and Edmonton as well. 

None of this is to say we are in trouble, or that we can't have an excellent year.  And of course, the off-season isn't over yet.  But as things stand today, one has to conclude that it will be another dog-fight in the West, and some of our new players are going to have to pan out for us to have success.  Signing Willie doesn't punch our ticket to this year's Cup, so it may be prudent to temper expectations.  Or not....  :)


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Jesse on February 13, 2020, 02:58:32 PM
I think that if Collaros is healthy, we'll be amazing, and when/if he is injured, we'll be kind of dog $h!t.

I think that Collaros getting injured on the first drive of the season and missing the rest of the year is more likely than him playing a full 18 games.

That said, we just won the Grey Cup. So I'm going to be positive about the upcoming year and take my enjoyment out of the little things, if not the win/loss record.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: BlueInCgy on February 13, 2020, 02:59:45 PM
Fair assessment.

It's hard to compare Collaros to Nichols for a number of reasons.  Collaros's sample size with the BB is dramatically smaller than Nichols, and had the Bombers ridden Collaros for the entirety of the four games, I suspect his performance would actually have been worse.  Game planning a "QB by committee" approach for the playoff run kept defenses a bit more on their toes than they otherwise would have been.  That being said, I think Collaros has the ability to make better decisions faster, which will likely result in less picks over what Nichols would have done, and he appears to be able to make something out of nothing better than Nichols.  But he also has a higher tendency of getting injured.  That being said, if Whitehead/Lawler/Bailey/Grant continue to develop next year and are utilized effectively by Collaros, there's a potential for a scary good offense.  Don't know if Grant/Whitehead have a high enough ceiling though, but I'd just be happy if Grant could just perform on STs the way he did.

Defense - I think we've lost a lot more than we are realizing right now, but hopefully I'm wrong.  The gelling of the defense over the playoff run last year tends to overshadow their abysmal games mid season.

I am still hoping for a couple of surprise signings this week, there's still some very good talent to be had.


My gut feel right now - We can probably make it to GC 2020, but if we do I don't think we'll have a repeat victory over the Cats.  But February opinions are generally unfounded.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Ducky on February 13, 2020, 03:12:56 PM


1.  One can debate whether Collaros will be better at QB than Nichols, but statistically it's likely a wash.  Even though we have essentially an intact offence from the Grey Cup game, given the loss of Streveler we are weaker at QB depth, and while I have high hopes for Buck, he ain't Lapo just yet.  So offensively, we are a little weaker.  Collaros is a slight upgrade - more mobile, better arm.  Losing Streveler is huge.  Buck has been learning under LaPo for a few years plus has years of Qb experience.  I think the O planning will be fine.  Maybe less risk adverse.

2.  Johnson was not a marquee signing, but let's assume he's an adequate replacement for the CFL interception leader.  We have still lost an all-star DHB, and retaining Jefferson cost us Nevis and Roh on the d-line rotation.  We have prospects who may be able to fill those roles, but as of right now, our overall defensive line assets are diminished.  Consequently, we are a little weaker on defence as well.  Jefferson, Jeffcoat and McCallister are a great rotation (McCallister replaces Roh just fine).  Nevis leaves a hole in the middle of the line.  Who is replacing him?  Will the run defence suffer?

3. Even though we were strong through the playoffs, the team finished third in the West last year.  Now, if Collaros plays 18 games, then comparisons to last year's record are irrelevant.  But if he misses 3-5 games, then the comparison is more apt, particularly since we are not as deep at the position.  Yup

4.  Other teams are making moves to address gaps and shortcomings, while our commitment to holding our roster intact has prevented us from doing so.  Now, just because another team has more roster churn doesn't mean they are necessarily adding more talent.  But what it does mean, is that teams that are dropping guys and adding others at least have a chance to overhaul their salary structure.  It is entirely possible that BC is much more competitive this year, and Edmonton as well.  Doesn't the same thing happen every year in the CFL?  Walters has proven to be very shrewd.  Our FA signings have been top notch the last few years.  

None of this is to say we are in trouble, or that we can't have an excellent year.  And of course, the off-season isn't over yet.  But as things stand today, one has to conclude that it will be another dog-fight in the West, and some of our new players are going to have to pan out for us to have success.  Signing Willie doesn't punch our ticket to this year's Cup, so it may be prudent to temper expectations.  Or not....  :)
 Again, i think the same thing happens every year, no?  Anyone really think the Bombers are going to dominate the West?  Several very good teams.  A key injury(ies) can de rail a season for any of them.  I am confident the WBB will be good.  If a couple new guys excel then they could be very, very good. They have a shot at repeating. That makes me happy.   


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 13, 2020, 03:17:41 PM
Winning the G.C. last year was the end result of a major miracle, in reality it would not have happened if not for the Collaros late-season trade, so in a sense management was quite lucky to have pulled it off.  The Bombers have not yet demonstrated that they are a dominant team, they certainly have the ability to beat any given CFL team on any given day, but they have not yet put together a consistently dominant season were they recorded the best winning over-all record and claimed first place. 

Many of their close competitors appear to have gotten better through F.A. while the Bombers more or less held their ground as well as could be expected.  At best the West is a dog-fight with the 3 top spots in flux and the potential of having  no weak sisters.  Add a dominant Hamilton team from the East and that makes 4 teams with an almost equal chance of winning this year's G.C., so in my book the Bombers realistically have a 20-25% chance of repeating as champs. 


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: booch on February 13, 2020, 03:17:45 PM
Okay, we are all still riding high off the amazing stretch run to bounce back and win the Cup, followed by retaining Willie Jefferson, a dominant defensive player and the most desired free agent this year.  But, even though the WBB did an amazing job retaining almost all of their talent, we need to acknowledge that there is some heavy lifting to do this year.  To wit:

1.  One can debate whether Collaros will be better at QB than Nichols, but statistically it's likely a wash.  Even though we have essentially an intact offence from the Grey Cup game, given the loss of Streveler we are weaker at QB depth, and while I have high hopes for Buck, he ain't Lapo just yet.  So offensively, we are a little weaker.


2.  Johnson was not a marquee signing, but let's assume he's an adequate replacement for the CFL interception leader.  We have still lost an all-star DHB, and retaining Jefferson cost us Nevis and Roh on the d-line rotation.  We have prospects who may be able to fill those roles, but as of right now, our overall defensive line assets are diminished.  Consequently, we are a little weaker on defence as well.

3. Even though we were strong through the playoffs, the team finished third in the West last year.  Now, if Collaros plays 18 games, then comparisons to last year's record are irrelevant.  But if he misses 3-5 games, then the comparison is more apt, particularly since we are not as deep at the position. 

4.  Other teams are making moves to address gaps and shortcomings, while our commitment to holding our roster intact has prevented us from doing so.  Now, just because another team has more roster churn doesn't mean they are necessarily adding more talent.  But what it does mean, is that teams that are dropping guys and adding others at least have a chance to overhaul their salary structure.  It is entirely possible that BC is much more competitive this year, and Edmonton as well. 

None of this is to say we are in trouble, or that we can't have an excellent year.  And of course, the off-season isn't over yet.  But as things stand today, one has to conclude that it will be another dog-fight in the West, and some of our new players are going to have to pan out for us to have success.  Signing Willie doesn't punch our ticket to this year's Cup, so it may be prudent to temper expectations.  Or not....  :)

1. Agree...a lot hinges on Collaros health, that being said if he is healthy he allows us to do more things than Matt did, and having his entire o-line back will help in keeping the offence humming as we just pick right up where we left off..Strev will hurt, but as a Back-up McGuire will give us a different strength thasn Strev...will it work..TBD  

2. Johnson was by many considered one of the best cover DB's available..and our coaching has a pretty keen eye on recognizing and then developing that...Just look at what Rose and Syales have said since they left. Nevis is a major loss, Roh was a nice piece but was not missed when he left lineup...and McCallister will more than fill his role, and if someone beats him out in TC then we in even better shape

3. When you factor in our QB went down game 9...the Andrew suspension...Strev good, but not ready for prime time...Adams missing time and not 100 percent until basically the last game off year and play-offs...3rd is pretty good, and it's not where you finish in standings...it's when your last win happens..our's happened right where we wanted it to

4. Why make moves for the sake of making moves...and if you don't t really have major gaps...then what you gonna do?..break down our core just because? our pre-free agency signings were moves made so we didn't have to make moves...would I have liked to see a big ticket WR..maybe..but not at the expense of re-upping Bryant..Willie..Hardrick..Neuf...among others...TC hasn't even happened and a lot of signings...deletions can happen prior to then, and for once I finally have faith in our scouting to replace old with new if required

This isn't blue tinted view...but to win a cup..bring back all basically who were vital and going into camp continuing on..without re-learning a new system, or new teamates is huge..HUGE...put's us ahead of most teams right outta the gate.

As for lapo leaving..meh..a lot of people give him too much credit..It's a known fact that the offensive staff took input from other coaches and players on play structure and idea's, so who is to really know who created what?..and from what I have been told Buck has been a major piece in creating the game day scheme...so I not worried, especially with a veteran offence who have been together now as a whole for almost 3 years now as a unit basically for the most part, and Lapo didn't own the Winnipeg playbook..The Bombers did so it's not like we starting from scratch


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: theaardvark on February 13, 2020, 03:29:29 PM
I think that if Collaros is healthy, we'll be amazing, and when/if he is injured, we'll be kind of dog $h!t.

I think that Collaros getting injured on the first drive of the season and missing the rest of the year is more likely than him playing a full 18 games.

That said, we just won the Grey Cup. So I'm going to be positive about the upcoming year and take my enjoyment out of the little things, if not the win/loss record.

Ok, as long as we are taking this defeatist attitude about the entire season hnging on Collaros remaining healthy, consider...

What would Calgary fans think going into last year about their chances if Bo went down?  Arbuckle had 17 completions for 144 yards entering training camp last year.

What would Hamilton fans think their chances would be if Masoli went down?  Evans had 26 completions for 383 yards heading into last season.

I'd say those teams did pretty good overall last year, no?

McGuire is unknown, like Arbuckle and Evans.  But, like those two, he was chosen to be our backup by professional talent scouts and selected to remain here in light of competition.  And those men decided to keep him as their #2 with the likes of Franklin, Pipkin, Jennings available (admittedly, at a higher cost, but nothing unmanageable.)

The brain trust saw what Hamilton and Calgary did with solid rosters and an unproven backup QB.  I bet it made the decision to roll with McGuire a lot easier.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: blue_gold_84 on February 13, 2020, 03:37:36 PM
Ok, as long as we are taking this defeatist attitude about the entire season hnging on Collaros remaining healthy, consider...

Way to miss the point. Collaros' injury history speaks for itself, so it's a valid point to be worried about the team if he misses any significant time due to injury in 2020. Especially if that injury is of the concussion variety.

Of course losing a QB is precarious for basically every team in this league. But it's markedly different when an injury history such as that of Collaros is considered. It's not the same as a one-time injury like Masoli, Mitchell, et al. has suffered. The WFC has taken a gamble at QB but hopefully the risk has been mitigated by keeping the O-line intact.

Jesse's concern is valid and hardly a "defeatist attitude" as you've mislabeled it. We don't all live in the land of sunshine and blue lollipops, Aardsy.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on February 13, 2020, 03:43:43 PM
The reality is if Collaros gets hurt for a major length of time our season comes down to a lottery ticket named McGuire. It's never good to pin your hopes on winning the lottery but if it comes to that I'll be hoping like the rest of you. In short, despite Aardvark's platitudes, if Collaros goes down it's time to worry.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Jesse on February 13, 2020, 03:46:07 PM
Ok, as long as we are taking this defeatist attitude about the entire season hnging on Collaros remaining healthy, consider...

What would Calgary fans think going into last year about their chances if Bo went down?  Arbuckle had 17 completions for 144 yards entering training camp last year.

What would Hamilton fans think their chances would be if Masoli went down?  Evans had 26 completions for 383 yards heading into last season.

I'd say those teams did pretty good overall last year, no?

McGuire is unknown, like Arbuckle and Evans.  But, like those two, he was chosen to be our backup by professional talent scouts and selected to remain here in light of competition.  And those men decided to keep him as their #2 with the likes of Franklin, Pipkin, Jennings available (admittedly, at a higher cost, but nothing unmanageable.)

The brain trust saw what Hamilton and Calgary did with solid rosters and an unproven backup QB.  I bet it made the decision to roll with McGuire a lot easier.

It's not defeatist. A huge part of a team's success rides on it's QB.

We were something like 4-5 under Streveler last season. That's pretty good under your back up QB, but it's not going to meet expectations around here.

And I'm not complaining. We made our choice at QB and I don't think there was a better one. But it's going to have a huge impact on this season and we don't know if it's for better or for worse just yet.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: BlueInCgy on February 13, 2020, 03:54:12 PM
Zach's been knocked out of the last two seasons by the second game.  Apprehension is certainly warranted.

And as much as we can tout the greatness of Strev, it was decades between the last time we actually cultivated a QB in house.  Maybe McGuire's plug and play ready, but I suspect (season risk wise) we're at best in the Pierce/Jyles boat, and more likely in the Pierce/Elliot/Brink/Hall/Goltz/ohgawdmakeitstop boat. 





Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on February 13, 2020, 03:56:17 PM
Zach's been knocked out of the last two seasons by the second game.  Apprehension is certainly warranted.

And as much as we can tout the greatness of Strev, it was decades between the last time we actually cultivated a QB in house.  Maybe McGuire's plug and play ready, but I suspect (season risk wise) we're at best in the Pierce/Jyles boat, and more likely in the Pierce/Elliot/Brink/Hall/Goltz/ohgawdmakeitstop boat. 

There's a 'touch of realism' for us.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: 3rdand1.5 on February 13, 2020, 03:58:09 PM
My 2 cents;

Offence
QB- we are worse of this year with Zach and Mc Guire than last year with Nichols and Strev.
WR-we should be better this year, due to familiarity
RB-Equal to last year
O-line- probably tops in the league, and with even better depth this year
Intangibles-we are worse off as Buck is an unknown

Defence
DL-losing Kongbo and Nevis makes us weaker
LB-As good as last year, hopefully Biggie is 100% and if so we will be improved at the LB spot
DB-We lost 2 guys to the NFL, but I am optimistic that we have guys that can step in. In saying that we are weaker than last year
Intangibles-it is to be seen how our DL/rotation, CDN starters are but with the continuity, I say our defence will be better over-all (I really like Alexander at safety)

Special teams
Return- should be even better
Cover-should be tops again
P/K-Medlock still has it, one of the best in the league

Over-all I see us again finishing somewhere in the 1-3 spot n the West. On paper we have a very good team, the culture and leadership seems to be in place, but Buck is not LaPo and Zach does not have the best injury history. Also don't kid yourself that Strev's unique skill set was not a major factor for us, without Strev. teams can scheme against us easier. Mc Quire is not Strev. and should/can not be used like him whether we want to admit it or not, that aspect of our offence is gone. I like our depth better than most teams we should be able to weather injuries better than most teams with the caveat of QB. Hammy by far has the most enviable QB depth in the league.



Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: TBURGESS on February 13, 2020, 04:13:07 PM
Downgrades:

PLAP to Buck - Decade of experience to none at OC.
QB - Huge gamble to go with Collaros backed up by McGuire.
DL - Kongbo allowed us to change the ratio at safety. Nevis stopped the run. Will have to use an NI DT to make our ratio this year.
DB - Sayles and Rose both played well enough to get NFL looks this year. Johnson didn't. Big downgrade here.

Same:

WR - Solid group, but still no #1 receiver
RB - Best in the League
OL - #1 or #2 in the league
LB - Need to play like they did in the last third of the season
Special teams - Solid group.

Upgrades:

None yet.

Looks like first to 3rd in the west unless Collaros goes down early, then it will be hard to make the playoffs.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: theaardvark on February 13, 2020, 04:18:38 PM
Way to miss the point. Collaros' injury history speaks for itself, so it's a valid point to be worried about the team if he misses any significant time due to injury in 2020. Especially if that injury is off the concussion variety.

Of course losing a QB is precarious for basically every team in this league. But it's markedly different when an injury history such as that of Collaros is considered. It's not the same as a one-time injury like Masoli, Mitchell, et al. has suffered. The WFC has taken a gamble at QB but hopefully the risk has been mitigated by keeping the O-line intact.

Jesse's concern is valid and hardly a "defeatist attitude" as you've mislabeled it. We don't all live in the land of sunshine and blue lollipops, Aardsy.

Collaros has never played on a team with as much protection as this one.  SSK's Oline was terrible last year, and he was injured on a dirty play, like his first injury.

He has shown he is fully recovered and the team chose him over Nichols, fully aware of his "injury history".  

I'm just saying, don't wish for bad luck, and trust the team knows where it is at.  

 


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: booch on February 13, 2020, 04:29:19 PM
My 2 cents;

Offence
QB- we are worse of this year with Zach and Mc Guire than last year with Nichols and Strev.
WR-we should be better this year, due to familiarity
RB-Equal to last year
O-line- probably tops in the league, and with even better depth this year
Intangibles-we are worse off as Buck is an unknown

Defence
DL-losing Kongbo and Nevis makes us weaker
LB-As good as last year, hopefully Biggie is 100% and if so we will be improved at the LB spot
DB-We lost 2 guys to the NFL, but I am optimistic that we have guys that can step in. In saying that we are weaker than last year
Intangibles-it is to be seen how our DL/rotation, CDN starters are but with the continuity, I say our defence will be better over-all (I really like Alexander at safety)

Special teams
Return- should be even better
Cover-should be tops again
P/K-Medlock still has it, one of the best in the league

Over-all I see us again finishing somewhere in the 1-3 spot n the West. On paper we have a very good team, the culture and leadership seems to be in place, but Buck is not LaPo and Zach does not have the best injury history. Also don't kid yourself that Strev's unique skill set was not a major factor for us, without Strev. teams can scheme against us easier. Mc Quire is not Strev. and should/can not be used like him whether we want to admit it or not, that aspect of our offence is gone. I like our depth better than most teams we should be able to weather injuries better than most teams with the caveat of QB. Hammy by far has the most enviable QB depth in the league.



Good valid points, but last year too our DB backfield was a major concern/mess and it took us until about game 15-16 to have it sorted out...who was safety...who was gonna be corner...what to do at halfback...way more questions then last year....this year we know Alexander is a stud safety..Jones while small sample size of 4 games was huge in playoffs and produced 16 tackles..2 INT's..numerous pass breakups and showed was a solid tackler and was good on ST's..Taylor was solid as was Maston...so I see us starting out better off...Johnson is good and people will see that and many forget other than a few of us most looked at Winston Rose as  "MEH" signing

Biggie I see daily and looks to be very healthy and fitter than last year and I expect big season...Wilson should only get better and we have all our national back-ups and Korey Jones as the DI won't be missed...

Jefferson and Jeffcoat...nothing more to be said there..same with Richardson...Other DT...Big question mark, but that's what camp is for just like last year..Richardson pushed out Bryant, so who's to say we don't unearth another Richardson, but as it sits we are at moment weaker without Nevis rotating in. But just as strong or stronger with Hansen and McCallister as rotational ends as last year, but will miss Kongbo's potential and Birth Certificate

QB is grey area...we can be as good or better if all goes well...or worse if all doesn't...Back up is the question....Because whether it would be Strev or McGuire it would be sketchy..but the change of pace aspect of Strev will be missed, and I fully expected Nichols to go down this year too for some time..so starter is a wash...Zack allows us to do more, but is he more brittle..again...time will tell




Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on February 13, 2020, 04:31:05 PM
Collaros has never played on a team with as much protection as this one.  SSK's Oline was terrible last year, and he was injured on a dirty play, like his first injury.

He has shown he is fully recovered and the team chose him over Nichols, fully aware of his "injury history".  

I'm just saying, don't wish for bad luck, and trust the team knows where it is at.  

Aardvark, our offensive line is very good but Collaros is still going to get hit every game. That's football. He also likes to scramble which can sometimes put more strain on the oline. Saskatchewan's Oline wasn't tops but it wasn't "terrible" last year, especially from a pass protection standpoint. In our playoff game both teams had 3 sacks.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: booch on February 13, 2020, 04:32:42 PM
Downgrades:

PLAP to Buck - Decade of experience to none at OC.
QB - Huge gamble to go with Collaros backed up by McGuire.
DL - Kongbo allowed us to change the ratio at safety. Nevis stopped the run. Will have to use an NI DT to make our ratio this year.
DB - Sayles and Rose both played well enough to get NFL looks this year. Johnson didn't. Big downgrade here.

Same:

WR - Solid group, but still no #1 receiver
RB - Best in the League
OL - #1 or #2 in the league
LB - Need to play like they did in the last third of the season
Special teams - Solid group.

Upgrades:

None yet.

Looks like first to 3rd in the west unless Collaros goes down early, then it will be hard to make the playoffs.

Actually we were 3rd last year...so status quo...and it worked out just fine

Also Johnson is 3-4 years older than Rose and Sayles...and has done his NFL experience already...and many experts (not on these forums) have said Johnson was the best cover DB available in free agency...


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: BlueInCgy on February 13, 2020, 04:37:35 PM
From a statistical perspective alone, it's unlikely Collaros plays the whole season; it's never happened before with him as a starter.  He averages out at about 12 games a season.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 13, 2020, 04:39:05 PM
Collaros has never played on a team with as much protection as this one.  SSK's Oline was terrible last year, and he was injured on a dirty play, like his first injury.

He has shown he is fully recovered and the team chose him over Nichols, fully aware of his "injury history".  

I'm just saying, don't wish for bad luck, and trust the team knows where it is at.  

 

Even a well-protected QB is going to get hit legally 3-4 times per game shortly after releasing the ball, a good O-line can only provide so much protection.  The danger play for Zach is the roll out when he extends the play beyond the O-line protection and is hit upon release by a defender following through on his tackle.  Falling backward with a defender planted high on his chest is not a good situation for a QB with a history of concussions to find himself.  Both Buck and Zach are going to have to figure out how the dangerous situations are created and do their best to avoid those scenarios.  The whole ball of wax is riding on Zach's health this season.



Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: theaardvark on February 13, 2020, 04:41:14 PM
Aardvark, our offensive line is very good but Collaros is still going to get hit every game. That's football. He also likes to scramble which can sometimes put more strain on the oline. Saskatchewan's Oline wasn't tops but it wasn't "terrible" last year. In our playoff game both teams had 3 sacks.

Yup.. he's going to get hit.  Did in the 4 games he played last year for us, while he was busy getting us to the finish line.   And he survived all the hits quite well.

We won't have Streveler this year, but no reason to think McGuire is not going to be heavily involved on running downs, and like Streveler, pulling it every now and then for a huge pass.

One big difference is unlike the Warrior Nichols, Collaros isn't going to sulk if he doesn't get every snap.   Streveler was utilized a lot more behind Collaros than Nichols.  And that kept Collaros upright during the playoff run...

 With Buck, who knows injuries, you can bet that Collaros will be protected.  Can he be protected against a Lawrence type dirty hit?  No one can.  


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: blue_gold_84 on February 13, 2020, 04:44:46 PM
Collaros has never played on a team with as much protection as this one.  SSK's Oline was terrible last year, and he was injured on a dirty play, like his first injury.

He has shown he is fully recovered and the team chose him over Nichols, fully aware of his "injury history".  

I'm just saying, don't wish for bad luck, and trust the team knows where it is at.  

Collaros had solid protection in Hamilton during his time there. You seem to ignore the fact brain injuries are cumulative, as evidenced by your "full recovery" comment. A full recovery means nothing when it all takes is a single hit to take him out again. The WFC choosing to go this route at QB doesn't nullify any of that. This regime has made mistakes in the past, anyway.

Who wished for bad luck? Oh, yeah... nobody.

Concern for the QB position this season is perfectly valid and rational. That doesn't mean fans here don't trust the team or that we can't criticize decisions. Spare us the holier-than-thou, homer narrative.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on February 13, 2020, 04:47:44 PM
Yup.. he's going to get hit.  Did in the 4 games he played last year for us, while he was busy getting us to the finish line.   And he survived all the hits quite well.

We won't have Streveler this year, but no reason to think McGuire is not going to be heavily involved on running downs, and like Streveler, pulling it every now and then for a huge pass.

One big difference is unlike the Warrior Nichols, Collaros isn't going to sulk if he doesn't get every snap.   Streveler was utilized a lot more behind Collaros than Nichols.  And that kept Collaros upright during the playoff run...

With Buck, who knows injuries, you can bet that Collaros will be protected.  Can he be protected against a Lawrence type dirty hit?  No one can.  

Umm - there is reason to think he's not going to be "heavily involved in running downs" like Streveler. I would point to the fact that he is not Streveler and therefore cannot do those things.

Did Nichols 'sulk'? You said everyone we sign is a 'team first guy' or is that not true today because it doesn't happen to fit the narrative?

I am looking forward to seeing what Buck can do, but your logic is faulty. The guy "knows injuries" because he could never figure out how to protect himself while playing. That's good? I guess?


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Blue96 on February 13, 2020, 04:48:11 PM
Even a well-protected QB is going to get hit legally 3-4 times per game shortly after releasing the ball, a good O-line can only provide so much protection.  The danger play for Zach is the roll out when he extends the play beyond the O-line protection and is hit upon release by a defender following through on his tackle.  Falling backward with a defender planted high on his chest is not a good situation for a QB with a history of concussions to find himself.  Both Buck and Zach are going to have to figure out how the dangerous situations are created and do their best to avoid those scenarios.  The whole ball of was is riding on Zach's health this season.



I agree with you that Zach's health is an extremely pivotal (mind the pun) issue. I also agree that he's going to take some shots, and probably some cheap ones. As a football player/coach, I know that those hits are often less severe when the DT/DE doesn't have an unrestricted run at the QB. Can/could a seemingly small hit be a terrible blow resulting in injury, absolutely, we see it often. The only thing I'd say about Zach's health and getting hit, is that with our OL being so strong, and having good group cohesion, the likelihood that he sustains the kinds of hits he did the last few seasons is statistically less likely.

All that to say, I agree with you and that Zach rolling out and not having protection while extending a play could spell trouble if he needs to resort to that too often.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: 3rdand1.5 on February 13, 2020, 04:49:30 PM
Yup.. he's going to get hit.  Did in the 4 games he played last year for us, while he was busy getting us to the finish line.   And he survived all the hits quite well.

We won't have Streveler this year, but no reason to think McGuire is not going to be heavily involved on running downs, and like Streveler, pulling it every now and then for a huge pass.


One big difference is unlike the Warrior Nichols, Collaros isn't going to sulk if he doesn't get every snap.   Streveler was utilized a lot more behind Collaros than Nichols.  And that kept Collaros upright during the playoff run...

 With Buck, who knows injuries, you can bet that Collaros will be protected.  Can he be protected against a Lawrence type dirty hit?  No one can.  

NO.....Strev. was a one off a truly amazing unique athlete, so good in fact that even with mediocre at best passing ability he scheduled numerous NFL workouts, had multiple offers and was able to get a 100k commitment because of it. Mc Quire is not nor will he ever be able to do what Strev. did last year. That aspect of our game is gone with Strev.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: blue_gold_84 on February 13, 2020, 04:55:42 PM
Umm - there is reason to think he's not going to be "heavily involved in running downs" like Streveler. I would point to the fact that he is not Streveler and therefore cannot do those things.

Did Nichols 'sulk'? You said everyone we sign is a 'team first guy' or is that not true today because it doesn't happen to fit the narrative?

I am looking forward to seeing what Buck can do, but your logic is faulty. The guy "knows injuries" because he could never figure out how to protect himself while playing. That's good? I guess?

Unreal spin cycle today. And then more childish shots at Matt Nichols... What gives.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: booch on February 13, 2020, 04:56:36 PM
THE 100K commitment tho is deceiving especially for UFA's

It's guaranteed and all but only a fraction is paid out as upfront signing bonus..and most likely only 5 to 10k as teams only have 94k for this purpose...but if he is cut he will get balance paid out over 5 years against the teams cap..thats how it works...You can doubt me if you want, but thats the way it is. I have mentioned this before in other threads and it's a teams "Dead Money"



Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: blue_or_die on February 13, 2020, 05:00:20 PM
I have major concerns with the secondary and slight concerns with the DL.

I'll come out and admit this even though y'all will think I'm crazy, but it was my opinion that if it came down to Jefferson and Nevis, when you factor the cost (and henceforth the money available to the rest of the roster) and strength of depth, I'd have taken Nevis. And don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE Jefferson fan. I just really thought that the success of the D, especially against the run, came from the stove and refrigerator we had parked in the middle of the Dline. The price would have been less than half of Jefferson, and we could have re-upped Roh as the de facto starter (underrated) and heavily rotated McCallister. Looking at that DL as a group, it's possibly stronger in terms of potential penetration/opening for LBs. That said, having McCallister in as the new Roh will be great, and our DE rotation will obviously be tops in the league. Not sure about the middle, though.

We obviously lost two very, very good DBs to the NFL; one of which was the league interception leader and the other playing arguably the most difficult position in Canadian football. Our biggest asset left is Brandon Alexander, but it is perplexing to me that he we be wasted by playing one of the easiest spots to fill. Taylor is serviceable and Mike Jones has shown that he very well could be a baller (certainly was in the playoffs), but I would recommend we put Alexander at BHB, Jones as BCB, JJ at FHB, a no0b at FCB, and use the vet Taylor to be field general as our safety. That is all of course to say if we do go all Int in the secondary. In any case, it was not possible to replace Sayles and Rose apparently, so we have to flesh out the boundary side with our best available IMO.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: blue girl on February 13, 2020, 05:00:59 PM
Offensively I think that we'll be very good. Collaros is going to get hit but if he can avoid the shots to the head he'll be alright. On defence we've taken some hits. Losing Nevis and Kongbo may be bigger than people think but we couldn't afford to give Nevis what he deserved and Kongbo wants to pursue the NFL. On special teams we'll be okay. We have the best kicker in the league IMO and should have Grant and Nelson battling for the returners position. I think that we'll finish no worse than third.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 13, 2020, 05:17:01 PM
I agree with you that Zach's health is an extremely pivotal (mind the pun) issue. I also agree that he's going to take some shots, and probably some cheap ones. As a football player/coach, I know that those hits are often less severe when the DT/DE doesn't have an unrestricted run at the QB. Can/could a seemingly small hit be a terrible blow resulting in injury, absolutely, we see it often. The only thing I'd say about Zach's health and getting hit, is that with our OL being so strong, and having good group cohesion, the likelihood that he sustains the kinds of hits he did the last few seasons is statistically less likely.

All that to say, I agree with you and that Zach rolling out and not having protection while extending a play could spell trouble if he needs to resort to that too often.

It is going to be a high stress season, no doubt about it.  If Collaros would have been concussed at any time during his 4 game run with the team, Walters decision would have been made for him.  The fact that signing Collaros paid off in a G.C. victory threw logic out of wack and almost forced him to go all-in on extending the Zach romance past the honeymoon.  I think Walters has done a fabulous job building the team up to the peak they reached last Nov. but from a managerial point of view I can't support the risk he has taken going all-in on Collaros.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Jesse on February 13, 2020, 05:17:55 PM
Umm - there is reason to think he's not going to be "heavily involved in running downs" like Streveler. I would point to the fact that he is not Streveler and therefore cannot do those things.

Did Nichols 'sulk'? You said everyone we sign is a 'team first guy' or is that not true today because it doesn't happen to fit the narrative?

I am looking forward to seeing what Buck can do, but your logic is faulty. The guy "knows injuries" because he could never figure out how to protect himself while playing. That's good? I guess?

So many lol's in aards' statement.

I would be very shocked if McGuire sees the field outside of injury. We've never seen MOS pull starters in situations late in game sor anything like that. The use of Strev was completed unprecedented and unique to his abilities.

I am a little shocked at aards for throwing Nichols under the bus already. Streveler's use predates Collaros joining the team by about two years. Nice little pot shot for a guy who did nothing but good for this team. Also, you're right in pointing out how hypocritical it is for him to call Nichols selfish when we don't sign selfish players.

Just throwing incorrect, inconsistent, and insulting narratives out there. Poor form aards.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: booch on February 13, 2020, 05:20:06 PM
Sid Crosby was close to having to retire...multiple concussions in short order..several from basically minimal contact, similar to Zack...but has gone what...almost 8 years now with none....possibly Zack is on that trajectory...risky banking on it, but hey it's possible



Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: TBURGESS on February 13, 2020, 05:25:06 PM
Some folks seem to be severely under estimating what Streveler did for us last year. In just his 2nd year, he started and won games. He was instrumental in winning other games when Nichols/Collaros started. I doubt we would have beaten Calgary in the playoffs if it wasn't for Streveler's running for example. Losing Streveler is huge IMO and no... I don't expect McGuire will be able to run like Streveler did. I hope he can throw the ball better though.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Blue96 on February 13, 2020, 05:26:45 PM
Some folks seem to be severely under estimating what Streveler did for us last year. In just his 2nd year, he started and won games. He was instrumental in winning other games when Nichols/Collaros started. I doubt we would have beaten Calgary in the playoffs if it wasn't for Streveler's running for example. Losing Streveler is huge IMO and no... I don't expect McGuire will be able to run like Streveler did. I hope he can throw the ball better though.

Not to mention his grit. Man played on a broken foot through an intense post season.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Nic16 on February 13, 2020, 05:28:36 PM
The obvious concern is Collaros getting another concussion. However, we do not know to what degree his concussions were, and he has stated that he is now 100% recovered.

With that said, without knowing all the details nobody (unless you are a concussion specialist) can clearly state he is now more prone than anyone else to get a concussion. Many pro & amateur athletes had more than one concussion early in their career (my hand is up), but continued to play without getting another one...and to this day have zero symptoms ;) :D

And regarding Sean McGuire, besides having a great name for a QB, he has the size & tools to go along with having a full year around an offence & GC winning team with little to no changes. Add in far more reps in practice as the backup and designed plays on game day, and hopefully he continues to develop into the QB the BB see him as.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: The Zipp on February 13, 2020, 05:30:02 PM
I have major concerns with the secondary and slight concerns with the DL.

I'll come out and admit this even though y'all will think I'm crazy, but it was my opinion that if it came down to Jefferson and Nevis, when you factor the cost (and henceforth the money available to the rest of the roster) and strength of depth, I'd have taken Nevis. And don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE Jefferson fan. I just really thought that the success of the D, especially against the run, came from the stove and refrigerator we had parked in the middle of the Dline. The price would have been less than half of Jefferson, and we could have re-upped Roh as the de facto starter (underrated) and heavily rotated McCallister. Looking at that DL as a group, it's possibly stronger in terms of potential penetration/opening for LBs. That said, having McCallister in as the new Roh will be great, and our DE rotation will obviously be tops in the league. Not sure about the middle, though.

We obviously lost two very, very good DBs to the NFL; one of which was the league interception leader and the other playing arguably the most difficult position in Canadian football. Our biggest asset left is Brandon Alexander, but it is perplexing to me that he we be wasted by playing one of the easiest spots to fill. Taylor is serviceable and Mike Jones has shown that he very well could be a baller (certainly was in the playoffs), but I would recommend we put Alexander at BHB, Jones as BCB, JJ at FHB, a no0b at FCB, and use the vet Taylor to be field general as our safety. That is all of course to say if we do go all Int in the secondary. In any case, it was not possible to replace Sayles and Rose apparently, so we have to flesh out the boundary side with our best available IMO.

you crazy bro...I wish we could have kept Nevis too but not at the expense of WJ...hoping Kongbo shakes loose at some point in early Oct.



Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: BlueInCgy on February 13, 2020, 05:30:58 PM
Some folks seem to be severely under estimating what Streveler did for us last year. In just his 2nd year, he started and won games. He was instrumental in winning other games when Nichols/Collaros started. I doubt we would have beaten Calgary in the playoffs if it wasn't for Streveler's running for example. Losing Streveler is huge IMO and no... I don't expect McGuire will be able to run like Streveler did. I hope he can throw the ball better though.

Streveler will be the unicorn for seasons to come.  Used properly, as he was in the playoffs, he was deadly in disrupting gameplanning.  


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Nic16 on February 13, 2020, 05:35:21 PM
you crazy bro...I wish we could have kept Nevis too but not at the expense of WJ...hoping Kongbo shakes loose at some point in early Oct.

Kongbo has his hands full cracking any part of the 9ers roster. Of course I wish him big time luck in doing it, but the odds would seem to be low.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: blue_gold_84 on February 13, 2020, 05:57:47 PM
Some folks seem to be severely under estimating what Streveler did for us last year. In just his 2nd year, he started and won games. He was instrumental in winning other games when Nichols/Collaros started. I doubt we would have beaten Calgary in the playoffs if it wasn't for Streveler's running for example. Losing Streveler is huge IMO and no... I don't expect McGuire will be able to run like Streveler did. I hope he can throw the ball better though.

Well said. Streveler's skillset added a wrinkle to this offence that was challenging to defend when paired with Collaros. That playoff run basically solidified its effectiveness. Honourable mention to his insanely beautiful TD pass to Harris in the big game, too.

I still wonder how that tandem system could've worked earlier on in 2019 when Nichols was still playing.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 13, 2020, 06:17:15 PM
The obvious concern is Collaros getting another concussion. However, we do not know to what degree his concussions were, and he has stated that he is now 100% recovered.

With that said, without knowing all the details nobody (unless you are a concussion specialist) can clearly state he is now more prone than anyone else to get a concussion. Many pro & amateur athletes had more than one concussion early in their career (my hand is up), but continued to play without getting another one...and to this day have zero symptoms ;) :D

And regarding Sean McGuire, besides having a great name for a QB, he has the size & tools to go along with having a full year around an offence & GC winning team with little to no changes. Add in far more reps in practice as the backup and designed plays on game day, and hopefully he continues to develop into the QB the BB see him as.

It's fair to say Collaros is a "concussion denier" and either doesn't believe in the proven science or is leaving his fate in the hand's of Jesus.....probably the latter.  ;D


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: kkc60 on February 13, 2020, 06:21:12 PM
Yup.. he's going to get hit.  Did in the 4 games he played last year for us, while he was busy getting us to the finish line.   And he survived all the hits quite well.

We won't have Streveler this year, but no reason to think McGuire is not going to be heavily involved on running downs, and like Streveler, pulling it every now and then for a huge pass.

One big difference is unlike the Warrior Nichols, Collaros isn't going to sulk if he doesn't get every snap.   Streveler was utilized a lot more behind Collaros than Nichols.  And that kept Collaros upright during the playoff run...

 With Buck, who knows injuries, you can bet that Collaros will be protected.  Can he be protected against a Lawrence type dirty hit?  No one can.  
In 44 games McGuire had 326 rushing yards, averaging 1.4 ypc. He also had 2 punts for 79 yards. Guess we're gonna see him in the punt game too?

Also, out of curiosity, when did Nichols "sulk" about not getting every snap? Oh that's right, he didn't. Just like he never publicly aired his displeasure for the Bombers targeting Collaros.

Please keep making stuff up, it's kinda funny


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Tehedra on February 13, 2020, 06:22:40 PM
I mean, we were concerned with Nichols/Steveler to start the season last year, then we all feared everything was lost when Nichols went down.  Streveler then went on to pull off several wins and his grit continued to show even when Nichols and Collaros were our starters.  I think we are starting this year with the same expectations, we have an unknown, we have the possibility for injuries, and our team as every other team, will need to rely on the success of the backup when the starter goes down.  I'm not willing to say our year is done if it is to happen, just as Saskatchewan's wasn't, nor was Hamiltons, and neither was Calgary last year when they had similar question marks and similar concerns to start the season.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: theaardvark on February 13, 2020, 06:55:28 PM
So many lol's in aards' statement.

I would be very shocked if McGuire sees the field outside of injury. We've never seen MOS pull starters in situations late in game sor anything like that. The use of Strev was completed unprecedented and unique to his abilities.

I am a little shocked at aards for throwing Nichols under the bus already. Streveler's use predates Collaros joining the team by about two years. Nice little pot shot for a guy who did nothing but good for this team. Also, you're right in pointing out how hypocritical it is for him to call Nichols selfish when we don't sign selfish players.

Just throwing incorrect, inconsistent, and insulting narratives out there. Poor form aards.

Not throwing Nichols under the bus, he had his way, and I always disliked that he would never let the other QB's take any snaps, even deep into garbage time.  As to MOS not pulling him, again, we don't know what sitting Nichols might have done from a confidence standpoint... but it seemed that we were able to do it far more with Collaros than Nichols.

When Collaros came in, Streveler was used in a different capacity than with Nichols.  We didn't start the year with a "two headed monster"...  even though we knew Streveler's abilities.  Yes, Streveler got in for his short yardage, and then maybe one play.  With Collaros, he had more packages, and instead of short yardage dives, he came in on running downs as well...

Buck as a player went head first into the fray, and it cost him.  Buck as an OC may have a different outlook is all I'm saying...

Until we get into the pre-season, we have no idea what the offense or even the QB corps is going to look like...


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Nic16 on February 13, 2020, 06:57:08 PM
It's fair to say Collaros is a "concussion denier" and either doesn't believe in the proven science or is leaving his fate in the hand's of Jesus.....probably the latter.  ;D

Collaros admits to having a concussion...so no it?s not fair to say.

Proven science states a person can return to normal activity (or sport) once given approval by a concussion specialist. And depending on the cause, severity of the concussion(s), type of activity, and believe it or not - your genetics...a specialist will advise you on staying away from the activity or actually encourage you to go back to it.

Collaros is not the first nor will he be the last to return to his sport post-concussion(s). I guess athlete?s like Andrew Copp, Crosby, Bergeron etc...are concussion deniers and leaving their fate in the hands of Jesus ::)


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: kkc60 on February 13, 2020, 07:03:36 PM
Not throwing Nichols under the bus, he had his way, and I always disliked that he would never let the other QB's take any snaps, even deep into garbage time.  As to MOS not pulling him, again, we don't know what sitting Nichols might have done from a confidence standpoint... but it seemed that we were able to do it far more with Collaros than Nichols.

When Collaros came in, Streveler was used in a different capacity than with Nichols.  We didn't start the year with a "two headed monster"...  even though we knew Streveler's abilities.  Yes, Streveler got in for his short yardage, and then maybe one play.  With Collaros, he had more packages, and instead of short yardage dives, he came in on running downs as well...

Buck as a player went head first into the fray, and it cost him.  Buck as an OC may have a different outlook is all I'm saying...

Until we get into the pre-season, we have no idea what the offense or even the QB corps is going to look like...

I must've missed when Nichols was the head coach. You do realize even when Streveler was our starter there were times when he could've/should've been pulled with an out of reach game either way, yet he stayed in, right?

You aren't saying "Buck might just put a different QB in for design run plays", you're implying that those plays will happen still, and with a QB who didn't average even 2 yards per carry in college.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: theaardvark on February 13, 2020, 07:05:39 PM
Concussion re-occurance seems to me to happen when a player rushes back too early.  Once they are symptom free, they are cleared to play.  But there is no guarantee they are fully healed.

Collaros sat for quite a while after he was cleared... that may have been enough to heal better.

I get vertigo.  When an episode hits, I have a Epley maneuver session, and it calms down.  I am symptom free, but if I do anything to exacerbate it, it comes back worse.  But after a month or so, it is fully rehabbed, and it takes a severe event to make it re-occur.  Not the same as a concussion, but somewhat similar...


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on February 13, 2020, 07:07:39 PM
Not throwing Nichols under the bus, he had his way, and I always disliked that he would never let the other QB's take any snaps, even deep into garbage time.  As to MOS not pulling him, again, we don't know what sitting Nichols might have done from a confidence standpoint... but it seemed that we were able to do it far more with Collaros than Nichols.

When Collaros came in, Streveler was used in a different capacity than with Nichols.  We didn't start the year with a "two headed monster"...  even though we knew Streveler's abilities.  Yes, Streveler got in for his short yardage, and then maybe one play.  With Collaros, he had more packages, and instead of short yardage dives, he came in on running downs as well...

Buck as a player went head first into the fray, and it cost him.  Buck as an OC may have a different outlook is all I'm saying...

Until we get into the pre-season, we have no idea what the offense or even the QB corps is going to look like...


Yikes. You're going off the deep end again Aardvark.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Blue96 on February 13, 2020, 07:10:27 PM
Concussion re-occurance seems to me to happen when a player rushes back too early.  Once they are symptom free, they are cleared to play.  But there is no guarantee they are fully healed.

Collaros sat for quite a while after he was cleared... that may have been enough to heal better.

I get vertigo.  When an episode hits, I have a Epley maneuver session, and it calms down.  I am symptom free, but if I do anything to exacerbate it, it comes back worse.  But after a month or so, it is fully rehabbed, and it takes a severe event to make it re-occur.  Not the same as a concussion, but somewhat similar...

Cleared to play and not at risk for a more severe and potentially life threatening concussion are completely different. As a coach and someone who has to know about concussions, I know that as has been said many times, concussions have a cumulative effect. While a player may be symptom free, CTE is a real and deadly thing. Players that have had their bell rung, like Zach, are at huge risk of the symptoms and behaviours of CTE in later life. Not only that, but the brain, like any muscle, is weakened every time it sustains damage. Concussions have not finished rearing their ugly head for ZC, I just hope that he can stay healthy this season and next.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: theaardvark on February 13, 2020, 07:13:31 PM
I must've missed when Nichols was the head coach. You do realize even when Streveler was our starter there were times when he could've/should've been pulled with an out of reach game either way, yet he stayed in, right?

You aren't saying "Buck might just put a different QB in for design run plays", you're implying that those plays will happen still, and with a QB who didn't average even 2 yards per carry in college.

The times Nichols was sat did not seem to sit well with him.  Sorry, that's just my observation.  Streveler too, he was seriously injured, but did not want to come out.

Is this a bad thing?  Wanting the ball every play?  In most cases, it is exactly what you want.  But it seemed to me that Nichols had convinced MOS to leave him in all the time.  Whether conscious or sub-conscious, who knows.  Just saying what it seemed like to me.

I didn't see that situation with Collaros.  Not a large sample size, and we didn't see Collaros struggle at all, but it just seemed like he was happy to let Streveler carry some of the load.   I'm not saying he was a Drew Tate, but was ok being on the sidelines.

I definitely think Buck will be more "creative" with his QB's, and put McGuire or our 3rd QB if we designate one in on designed run plays, even if the QB isn't an option on the play.  It doesn't make sense to risk when you don't have to...


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: blue_gold_84 on February 13, 2020, 07:14:55 PM
Not throwing Nichols under the bus, he had his way, and I always disliked that he would never let the other QB's take any snaps, even deep into garbage time.  As to MOS not pulling him, again, we don't know what sitting Nichols might have done from a confidence standpoint... but it seemed that we were able to do it far more with Collaros than Nichols.

When Collaros came in, Streveler was used in a different capacity than with Nichols.  We didn't start the year with a "two headed monster"...  even though we knew Streveler's abilities.  Yes, Streveler got in for his short yardage, and then maybe one play.  With Collaros, he had more packages, and instead of short yardage dives, he came in on running downs as well...

You've posted some nonsensical stuff in your time here but wow... this is up there.

And what's sad is you're speaking from a basis of pure ignorance and baseless assumption. But it's typical of you to dump on a player once he's no longer part of the WFC, so it is what it is.

It's the coach's/coaches' decision to pull a QB in garbage time, not a player's. And it was also the coach's/coaches' decision to deploy their QBs differently late in the season and post-season vs. earlier in the regular season. Of course you'd ignore the fact the offense was mostly getting the job done early in the season as it was being deployed.

I cannot for the life of me understand the logic behind the incredible reaches you make sometimes. Especially when you're just another fan with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever on the inner workings of the team.

Concussion re-occurance seems to me to happen when a player rushes back too early.  Once they are symptom free, they are cleared to play.  But there is no guarantee they are fully healed.

Collaros sat for quite a while after he was cleared... that may have been enough to heal better.

I get vertigo.  When an episode hits, I have a Epley maneuver session, and it calms down.  I am symptom free, but if I do anything to exacerbate it, it comes back worse.  But after a month or so, it is fully rehabbed, and it takes a severe event to make it re-occur.  Not the same as a concussion, but somewhat similar...

In other words, your anecdotal evidence means nothing. You're not playing football nor have you suffered multiple concussion playing football. Being cleared to play football doesn't change the fact Collaros is putting his wellbeing at risk every time he steps on the field. That's how brain injuries go and the science on that is well established.

Yikes. You're going off the deep end again Aardvark.

One of those days methinks. :-\


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: kkc60 on February 13, 2020, 07:21:10 PM
The times Nichols was sat did not seem to sit well with him.  Sorry, that's just my observation.  Streveler too, he was seriously injured, but did not want to come out.

Is this a bad thing?  Wanting the ball every play?  In most cases, it is exactly what you want.  But it seemed to me that Nichols had convinced MOS to leave him in all the time.  Whether conscious or sub-conscious, who knows.  Just saying what it seemed like to me.

I didn't see that situation with Collaros.  Not a large sample size, and we didn't see Collaros struggle at all, but it just seemed like he was happy to let Streveler carry some of the load.   I'm not saying he was a Drew Tate, but was ok being on the sidelines.

I definitely think Buck will be more "creative" with his QB's, and put McGuire or our 3rd QB if we designate one in on designed run plays, even if the QB isn't an option on the play.  It doesn't make sense to risk when you don't have to...
You really have a way of conveniently seeing things like that, and then bringing it up the second said player is off the team, hey?

And no it's not a bad thing, but you sure love to word it like it is, and then back-track.

Again, Collaros was on the team for like a month. Of course he probably was happy to not have the pressure of being on the field the whole time with a playbook he just learned.

Again, the odds of McGuire doing anything close to Streveler is low. You don't just find another Streveler and you don't just get your #2 or #3 to do designed runs cuz they're your #2 or #3. You do it because they can do it. McGuire had as many rushing yards in 4 years as Augustine did in like 2 starts this year. Please take this idea of McGuire being in designed QB runs on purpose out of your bucket-o-theories as it is ridiculously unrealistic


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: theaardvark on February 13, 2020, 07:27:33 PM
You really have a way of conveniently seeing things like that, and then bringing it up the second said player is off the team, hey?

And no it's not a bad thing, but you sure love to word it like it is, and then back-track.

Again, Collaros was on the team for like a month. Of course he probably was happy to not have the pressure of being on the field the whole time with a playbook he just learned.

Again, the odds of McGuire doing anything close to Streveler is low. You don't just find another Streveler and you don't just get your #2 or #3 to do designed runs cuz they're your #2 or #3. You do it because they can do it. McGuire had as many rushing yards in 4 years as Augustine did in like 2 starts this year. Please take this idea of McGuire being in designed QB runs on purpose out of your bucket-o-theories as it is ridiculously unrealistic

Not talking designed QB run plays, I'm talking running downs.  Maybe with a QB option to run or roll out, but running play downs.  Not talking about McGuire running, but handing off or faking and rolling out... he does have an arm, so if you put him in on running plays, the fake becomes a lot more effective... Streveler did that nicely last year, and McGuire has a much better arm...


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Jesse on February 13, 2020, 07:44:09 PM
Not talking designed QB run plays, I'm talking running downs.  Maybe with a QB option to run or roll out, but running play downs.  Not talking about McGuire running, but handing off or faking and rolling out... he does have an arm, so if you put him in on running plays, the fake becomes a lot more effective... Streveler did that nicely last year, and McGuire has a much better arm...

Starter not likely coming off the field except due to injury.

I'd also like to point out that we have no idea if McGuire has a much better arm. We've never really seen him play.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: booch on February 13, 2020, 07:47:07 PM
Starter not likely coming off the field except due to injury.

I'd also like to point out that we have no idea if McGuire has a much better arm. We've never really seen him play.
Did you not watch in pre-season...or in practice at all?
I been too many practices..McGuire had the strongest arm on roster last year, and I will go as far to say best arm I have seen in camp in years


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on February 13, 2020, 07:49:13 PM
Not talking designed QB run plays, I'm talking running downs.  Maybe with a QB option to run or roll out, but running play downs.  Not talking about McGuire running, but handing off or faking and rolling out... he does have an arm, so if you put him in on running plays, the fake becomes a lot more effective... Streveler did that nicely last year, and McGuire has a much better arm...

...What you're describing sounds like either a play-action pass or RPO. The fake does not become "a lot more effective" if your backup quarterback is in the game though.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: blue_or_die on February 13, 2020, 07:52:25 PM
...What you're describing sounds like either a play-action pass or RPO. The fake does not become "a lot more effective" if your backup quarterback is in the game though.

But the other team will never expect it! Got 'em right where we want 'em  ;)


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Nic16 on February 13, 2020, 07:58:15 PM
Did you not watch in pre-season...or in practice at all?
I been too many practices..McGuire had the strongest arm on roster last year, and I will go as far to say best arm I have seen in camp in years

Agreed 100%.

McGuire definitely had the strongest arm of our 3 QB?s...and this likely now includes ZC.

Question is, can he show it off come game time??...no idea, but I will say I do like his chances.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: BlueInCgy on February 13, 2020, 08:00:10 PM
...What you're describing sounds like either a play-action pass or RPO. The fake does not become "a lot more effective" if your backup quarterback is in the game though.

So with a non running QB2 brought in for an RPO on a running down where we don't run the ball, doesn't that just make the RPO a P, in which case you'd would leave your non-running QB1 in, in which case QB2 never actually sees the field, because if he did, there could quite literally be a black hole spontaneously develop?  Asking for a friend.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: BigBlueCrew on February 13, 2020, 08:02:10 PM
Where to start?

-If Nichols didn't get injured then the Bombers likely finish first in the west.
-Rose wasn't a stud corner at the time we signed him
-Hecht and Fenner got burned horribly last year while they were in the lineup. Alexander was much better than Hecht, and I bet whoever replaces Fenner can't do any worse.
-I have plenty of faith in Buck. I believe he has a good understanding of what needs to be done to be successful.
-Nevis is expendable because Richardson. We won't see a drop off there
-I loved Roh, but him not being here isn't going to make a difference when you have Jeffcoat and Jefferson
-Adams had much more success with Collaros, add to the fact that Lawler and Bailey won't be coming in fresh we will be just fine there. They have so much upside to develop into stars.
-We don't need Streveler to be successful. We just go back to running a normal 1QB offence like every other team has run for ages


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Nic16 on February 13, 2020, 08:25:28 PM
Where to start?

-If Nichols didn't get injured then the Bombers likely finish first in the west.
-Rose wasn't a stud corner at the time we signed him
-Hecht and Fenner got burned horribly last year while they were in the lineup. Alexander was much better than Hecht, and I bet whoever replaces Fenner can't do any worse.
-I have plenty of faith in Buck. I believe he has a good understanding of what needs to be done to be successful.
-Nevis is expendable because Richardson. We won't see a drop off there
-I loved Roh, but him not being here isn't going to make a difference when you have Jeffcoat and Jefferson
-Adams had much more success with Collaros, add to the fact that Lawler and Bailey won't be coming in fresh we will be just fine there. They have so much upside to develop into stars.
-We don't need Streveler to be successful. We just go back to running a normal 1QB offence like every other team has run for ages

Fully agree on all points.

At this point, my only real concern on D is the 2 open spots in the secondary. It appears the BB have a high level of confidence in Mike Jones filling 1 spot, but a question mark currently fills the other...which I assume is FCB.

That said, there is some intriguing DB prospects...Boynton & McDougal being 2 of them.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: booch on February 13, 2020, 08:34:03 PM
Fully agree on all points.

At this point, my only real concern on D is the 2 open spots in the secondary. It appears the BB have a high level of confidence in Mike Jones filling 1 spot, but a question mark currently fills the other...which I assume is FCB.

That said, there is some intriguing DB prospects...Boynton & McDougal being 2 of them.

Don't forget 6'4" Lyles either...he also has experience with 7 games in the CFL ...could be a legit option...ran a 4.38 40 at his pro day..39' vertical and a 11' broad jump..be a tough guy to beat and win any jump balls on the boundary corner..and corner is his natural position from college


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Ladybug on February 13, 2020, 08:49:25 PM
Quite likely, the Bombers would not have won the cup without Streveler's increased involvement as the year went on.
I don't believe either Collaros or Nichols would have won the Cup if Strev was only getting the limited reps that he was seeing before the Nichols injury.
It won't surprise me if we see a Streveler type guy at training camp this year.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Nic16 on February 13, 2020, 08:51:38 PM
Don't forget 6'4" Lyles either...he also has experience in the  7 games CFL experience...could be a legit option...ran a 4.38 40 at his pro day..39' vertical and a 11' broad jump..be a tough guy to beat and win any jump balls on the boundary corner..and corner is his natural position from college

Yes...I knew there was another intriguing CB prospect I was forgetting.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: bomb squad on February 13, 2020, 08:55:20 PM
/
Quite likely, the Bombers would not have won the cup without Streveler's increased involvement as the year went on.
I don't believe either Collaros or Nichols would have won the Cup if Strev was only getting the limited reps that he was seeing before the Nichols injury.
It won't surprise me if we see a Streveler type guy at training camp this year.


I think every team will be looking for that type of guy now.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on February 13, 2020, 08:57:38 PM
Don't forget 6'4" Lyles either...he also has experience with 7 games in the CFL ...could be a legit option...ran a 4.38 40 at his pro day..39' vertical and a 11' broad jump..be a tough guy to beat and win any jump balls on the boundary corner..and corner is his natural position from college

Do you know more about him? I'm always a little suspicious of tall DBs with good measurables because those guys often get extended NFL looks. Why didn't he?


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: the paw on February 13, 2020, 09:08:10 PM
Do you know more about him? I'm always a little suspicious of tall DBs with good measurables because those guys often get extended NFL looks. Why didn't he?

nice article about him here:

https://themississippicollegian.com/2018/02/02/former-mississippi-college-choctaw-is-enjoying-success-in-the-cfl-by-corey-rholdon-sport-editor/



Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: pjrocksmb on February 13, 2020, 09:09:17 PM
Zach is the only real issue.  We will be good to great based on his health.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: booch on February 13, 2020, 09:18:48 PM
Do you know more about him? I'm always a little suspicious of tall DBs with good measurables because those guys often get extended NFL looks. Why didn't he?
He was with Indy for a year out of college...and I think he had some looks the last year and a bit, but no offers...hence why he hadn't resurfaced on 2019...has the skill set...hopefully he pans out this year


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: TecnoGenius on February 14, 2020, 12:03:28 AM
I have major concerns with the secondary and slight concerns with the DL.

I'll come out and admit this even though y'all will think I'm crazy, but it was my opinion that if it came down to Jefferson and Nevis, when you factor the cost (and henceforth the money available to the rest of the roster) and strength of depth, I'd have taken Nevis. And don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE Jefferson fan.

You made me stop and think about it... and I'd still take Jefferson any day.  And remember, I'm not the biggest Willie fan.  Everyone yells at me when I echo many Riders fans saying Willie "takes plays off".  And Willie is 90% useless against the run even when it goes right past him (remember the Begelton TD sweep right by him in the WSF?).  But when Willie turns on that smoke, he will flat out win games for you.

And most teams are pass-heavy, so Willie is much more valuable than a run-stopping Nevis.  Only if our main rival teams take on a WPG persona and go run-heavy will our choice be a bad one.

And I think Nevis got a bigger payday to change teams than you are thinking, so it's not as huge a savings over Willie.

Nevis stuffs the middle, Nevis stops the run, and Nevis pushes that pocket in, but Nevis has and never will win a game for you.  I love Nevis, but the choice is the right one because he wants the payday (he deserves).


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: blue_or_die on February 14, 2020, 12:57:37 PM
You made me stop and think about it... and I'd still take Jefferson any day.  And remember, I'm not the biggest Willie fan.  Everyone yells at me when I echo many Riders fans saying Willie "takes plays off".  And Willie is 90% useless against the run even when it goes right past him (remember the Begelton TD sweep right by him in the WSF?).  But when Willie turns on that smoke, he will flat out win games for you.

And most teams are pass-heavy, so Willie is much more valuable than a run-stopping Nevis.  Only if our main rival teams take on a WPG persona and go run-heavy will our choice be a bad one.

And I think Nevis got a bigger payday to change teams than you are thinking, so it's not as huge a savings over Willie.

Nevis stuffs the middle, Nevis stops the run, and Nevis pushes that pocket in, but Nevis has and never will win a game for you.  I love Nevis, but the choice is the right one because he wants the payday (he deserves).


It's not just about run-stopping, it's about pressuring the opposing QB during pass plays as well.

Willie will do sexier stuff that is more visible last year was laughable.

I'm not trying to downplay Jefferson by any means, I am a huge fan and agree he can take a game over. I am just saying that getting a consistent push in the middle that has a propagating effect against the entire offensive set is something that is undervalued, and Nevis was one of the best at that. And again, my argument is tied to dollars as well. Nevis was reportedly getting 85k, so even if his raise was to 135K (massive raise), that would still only be half of what we have to pay Willie. That's 135K (and likely more) that could be allocated to other areas of need on the roster.

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from with that. Nonetheless, I'm very happy with the Jefferson signing. Love that guy.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: booch on February 14, 2020, 01:39:38 PM
It's not just about run-stopping, it's about pressuring the opposing QB during pass plays as well.

Willie will do sexier stuff that is more visible last year was laughable.

I'm not trying to downplay Jefferson by any means, I am a huge fan and agree he can take a game over. I am just saying that getting a consistent push in the middle that has a propagating effect against the entire offensive set is something that is undervalued, and Nevis was one of the best at that. And again, my argument is tied to dollars as well. Nevis was reportedly getting 85k, so even if his raise was to 135K (massive raise), that would still only be half of what we have to pay Willie. That's 135K (and likely more) that could be allocated to other areas of need on the roster.

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from with that. Nonetheless, I'm very happy with the Jefferson signing. Love that guy.

Lost a lot in what Jefferson does is disrupt hot reads and a lot of a QB first option from being right in the QB's line of fire, making him have to choose to go elsewhere and be in pocket longer, more susceptible to a sack, or make a crappy pass to try and go over and around him resulting in an incompletion or possible pick...not a stat, but very disruptive

Tho not due to Jefferson but a perfect example was Nevis breaking through causing Evan's to throw high and a errant pass which resulted in Alexander's pick in the Grey Cup


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Nic16 on February 14, 2020, 02:24:37 PM
Lost a lot in what Jefferson does is disrupt hot reads and a lot of a QB first option from being right in the QB's line of fire, making him have to choose to go elsewhere and be in pocket longer, more susceptible to a sack, or make a crappy pass to try and go over and around him resulting in an incompletion or possible pick...not a stat, but very disruptive

Tho not due to Jefferson but a perfect example was Nevis breaking through causing Evan's to throw high and a errant pass which resulted in Alexander's pick in the Grey Cup


Gonna miss Nevis in the middle, but you?re right about Jefferson. He forces the opposition DC to game plan around him.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: pjrocksmb on February 14, 2020, 04:53:09 PM
Gonna miss Nevis in the middle, but you?re right about Jefferson. He forces the opposition DC to game plan around him.

Agree


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: TecnoGenius on February 15, 2020, 06:12:58 PM
Nevis was reportedly getting 85k, so even if his raise was to 135K (massive raise), that would still only be half of what we have to pay Willie. That's 135K (and likely more) that could be allocated to other areas of need on the roster.

I bet Nevis is getting paid more than $135.  If he wanted $135 we could have easily given him $120 and he'd stay here.  We could afford $120 for a GC-caliber DT.  If SSK can pay $250 for a mostly-invisible DT, we can do $120 for Nevis.

Nope, Nevis probably got top dollar for his move.  Not Micah insanity, but probably pretty high for a DT.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: Tiger on February 16, 2020, 06:26:23 PM
My reality:  we won the Grey Cup.  I am enjoying that still.

Every year is different. We will see what happens this year.


Title: Re: A Touch of Realism
Post by: GOLDMEMBER on February 16, 2020, 06:49:34 PM
My reality:  we won the Grey Cup.  I am enjoying that still.

Every year is different. We will see what happens this year.
Me to Buddy. Whatever happens this year if it is good is icing on a exceptional cake. Cannot want to go to Regina again and rub it in.