Blue Bombers Forum

The Extra Point => Blue Bomber & CFL Discussion Forum => Topic started by: thunderNlightning on August 09, 2019, 02:20:50 AM



Title: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: thunderNlightning on August 09, 2019, 02:20:50 AM
Offense didn?t put up an offensive touchdown tonight. Grant scored two punt return TD?s which is rare. Scored 14 of our points there. No BLM tonight which would maybe been a big difference.

Kudos to our defense for stepping up and Harris pounding the ball late.
Win is a win, but we are darn lucky and no thanks to Nichols for this W. again very subpar.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: 3rdand1.5 on August 09, 2019, 02:24:22 AM
Overall a great team win.
The debate is..is it Nichols or Lapo... because as mentioned above take away special teams return tds and we only had Harris and no passing game on offence . That is not good enough


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: kkc60 on August 09, 2019, 02:25:10 AM
STs won the game. Defence was pretty good at times too but it was tooooooo close


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 02:27:26 AM
Games like this are hard on the old ticker.

No we didn't put an offensive TD but Calgary only had 19 yards more of offense. We won TOP by 33:41 and that's remarkable. When you consider scoring twice on punt returns meant Calgary got immediate offensive series.

Nichols completed 81.8% of his passes with only 4 incompletions. One pass in the end zone to Woli should have been caught. One pass to Matthews on the sideline should have been caught. Probably about 40 yards more was there for the taking. Plus it would have continued the drive in the case of teh Matthews drop.

I remember one grounder to Lawler but announcers felt Nichols threw low due to where Roberson  was positioned.

The worst pass was after the last Calgary TD where we went formula short run to Harris and a too short pass to Woli IIRC.

We have to improve what we do in those situations. Everybody knew what was going to be run in that series.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 02:30:24 AM
Grant had a good 1st game in spite of the fumble. It wasn't just because he scored on long returns. He showed very good vision and was making speed cuts like we've seen from Whitehead.

Again. That's an instinctive talent.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: thunderNlightning on August 09, 2019, 02:33:19 AM
Games like this are hard on the old ticker.

No we didn't put an offensive TD but Calgary only had 19 yards more of offense. We won TOP by 33:41 and that's remarkable. When you consider scoring twice on punt returns meant Calgary got immediate offensive series.

Nichols completed 81.8% of his passes with only 4 incompletions. One pass in the end zone to Woli should have been caught. One pass to Matthews on the sideline should have been caught. Probably about 40 yards more was there for the taking. Plus it would have continued the drive in the case of teh Matthews drop.

I remember one grounder to Lawler but announcers felt Nichols threw low due to where Roberson  was positioned.

The worst pass was after the last Calgary TD where we went formula short run to Harris and a too short pass to Woli IIRC.

We have to improve what we do in those situations. Everybody knew what was going to be run in that series.

Agree, our problem is teams are getting the film on us and just know how predictable our play calling is.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: kkc60 on August 09, 2019, 02:35:42 AM
Games like this are hard on the old ticker.

No we didn't put an offensive TD but Calgary only had 19 yards more of offense. We won TOP by 33:41 and that's remarkable. When you consider scoring twice on punt returns meant Calgary got immediate offensive series.

Nichols completed 81.8% of his passes with only 4 incompletions. One pass in the end zone to Woli should have been caught. One pass to Matthews on the sideline should have been caught. Probably about 40 yards more was there for the taking. Plus it would have continued the drive in the case of teh Matthews drop.
1. The yardage differential isnt too big because Harris. Nichols had 170 vs Arbuckles 260. The running game is where the difference was made

2. Todays game shows why completion % isn't a great stat to follow. Yes Nichols had 4 incompletions. But he also was hardly pushing downfield. A good chunk of his throws were as safe as they get.

3. The Matthews drop was a statistical difference maker but you could argue the same for some Calgary drops, the INT at the end or even the wide open TD saved by the goalpost. Stuff happens.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Austin85 on August 09, 2019, 02:38:14 AM
YOU THINK WE WERE LUCKY!!
GOD Nichols brutal again!


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bunker on August 09, 2019, 02:38:26 AM
Games like this are hard on the old ticker.

No we didn't put an offensive TD but Calgary only had 19 yards more of offense. We won TOP by 33:41 and that's remarkable. When you consider scoring twice on punt returns meant Calgary got immediate offensive series.

Nichols completed 81.8% of his passes with only 4 incompletions. One pass in the end zone to Woli should have been caught. One pass to Matthews on the sideline should have been caught. Probably about 40 yards more was there for the taking. Plus it would have continued the drive in the case of teh Matthews drop.

I remember one grounder to Lawler but announcers felt Nichols threw low due to where Roberson  was positioned.

The worst pass was after the last Calgary TD where we went formula short run to Harris and a too short pass to Woli IIRC.

We have to improve what we do in those situations. Everybody knew what was going to be run in that series.
Every QB has passes dropped. You can't adjust stats for that, and it's not as if this game is an outlier in terms of a pretty anemic passing game. Most QBs will have a high completion percentage when all their doing is finding check downs within 3 yards of the line of scrimmage, and praying for YAC, and most won't throw many interceptions either.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Austin85 on August 09, 2019, 02:40:28 AM
Nichols cannot handle press period!!


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bomb squad on August 09, 2019, 02:40:53 AM
Returning kicks for tds twice in a game is rather rare. But not lucky. We deserved this win. If anything, it shouldn't have been as close as it was.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Cheesebuster on August 09, 2019, 02:41:51 AM
Winnipeggers whine too much. Best team in the league and you guys still complain non-stop.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 02:42:28 AM
1. The yardage differential isnt too big because Harris. Nichols had 170 vs Arbuckles 260. The running game is where the difference was made

2. Todays game shows why completion % isn't a great stat to follow. Yes Nichols had 4 incompletions. But he also was hardly pushing downfield. A good chunk of his throws were as safe as they get.

3. The Matthews drop was a statistical difference maker but you could argue the same for some Calgary drops, the INT at the end or even the wide open TD saved by the goalpost. Stuff happens.

Woli dropped a pass in the end zone. You can't blame Nichols for that or the Matthews drop. He was throwing some completions longer than 10 yards.

Of course every QB has dropped passes. I'm just saying you can't put the blame on Nichols for those in this game.

In the broadcast pre game Sanchez said he initially put the blame last week on Nichols in the 2nd half. However when he watched the game film he saw the Argos putting enormous pressure quickly not allowing Nichols time.

If you aren't bias I think you'll see the same issues this week particularly once Speller got injured.

Arbuckle had passes dropped as well but we're discussing Nichols output on two passes that normally are caught. Both would have been difference makers and a Woli TD instead of a FG would have been significant.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: BBRT on August 09, 2019, 02:45:55 AM
Winnipeggers whine too much. Best team in the league and you guys still complain non-stop.

I for one like the 2 points - what I do not like is a QB that can not go down the field deep and an OC that does not try anything other than dump passes to our RB's. Take the two points but know that we do not have a starting QB that we can count on for a win when we need it.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 02:55:53 AM
1. The yardage differential isnt too big because Harris. Nichols had 170 vs Arbuckles 260. The running game is where the difference was made

2. Todays game shows why completion % isn't a great stat to follow. Yes Nichols had 4 incompletions. But he also was hardly pushing downfield. A good chunk of his throws were as safe as they get.

3. The Matthews drop was a statistical difference maker but you could argue the same for some Calgary drops, the INT at the end or even the wide open TD saved by the goalpost. Stuff happens.

If you don't like the completion % stat then consider we're 6 - 2 with the best record in the CFL. We've beaten the Stamps, Esks and Lions.



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bomb squad on August 09, 2019, 03:02:28 AM
I for one like the 2 points - what I do not like is a QB that can not go down the field deep and an OC that does not try anything other than dump passes to our RB's. Take the two points but know that we do not have a starting QB that we can count on for a win when we need it.

2 pts is a win.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: kkc60 on August 09, 2019, 03:10:50 AM
If you don't like the completion % stat then consider we're 6 - 2 with the best record in the CFL. We've beaten the Stamps, Esks and Lions.


Didn't say I dislike it just that it isn't really a great way to measure success.

Yes the record is what matters but if you think we can win a GC playing like we have lately, I dunno.

Also why is beating BC a flex? Especially considering our game vs them was a lot closer than teams likes Sasks. They have one win


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: NewBlue on August 09, 2019, 03:29:41 AM
I was actually good with Nichols tonight.  Thought he made some nice plays.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: In Motion on August 09, 2019, 03:32:09 AM
Very exciting game all the way through. What I didn't like
is our offense not converting on 2nd and 3's, and both offense
and defense almost losing it for us at the end again.  We were missing
a 1st string O lineman (Speller) which hurt, but the Stamps lost their
running back which affected their offense.

Overall, I'm happy with the win.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: kkc60 on August 09, 2019, 03:47:20 AM
I was actually good with Nichols tonight.  Thought he made some nice plays.
I was okay with him but he got a lil frustrating for me later on. Just no killer instinct


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: In Motion on August 09, 2019, 03:54:49 AM
I was okay with him but he got a lil frustrating for me later on. Just no killer instinct

I love Strevler, but I'm fine with Nicholls most games. I think he realizes a lot of Bomber
fans are not exactly behind him, and it hurts him and has made him lose his confidence.
Actually I don't think the O-line has been giving him enough time recently. 


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 09, 2019, 03:59:10 AM
I for one like the 2 points - what I do not like is a QB that can not go down the field deep and an OC that does not try anything other than dump passes to our RB's. Take the two points but know that we do not have a starting QB that we can count on for a win when we need it.

T.O.P. Bombers 33:41, Stamps 26:19, despite two S.T. TD's that kept the Bomber offence off the field in the first half.  How do you think that happened?


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 09, 2019, 04:01:20 AM
Very exciting game all the way through. What I didn't like
is our offense not converting on 2nd and 3's, and both offense
and defense almost losing it for us at the end again.  We were missing
a 1st string O lineman (Speller) which hurt, but the Stamps lost their
running back which affected their offense.

Overall, I'm happy with the win.

Classic Bomber team win, whether it's Medlock kicking 5 FG's, the D causing multiple turnovers, ST returns, or Harris carrying the O on his back, it's all good for the W.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: blue girl on August 09, 2019, 04:03:02 AM
Winnipeggers whine too much. Best team in the league and you guys still complain non-stop.
Totally agree. Listening to the postgame show tonight you'd think that the Bombers had lost with all the complaints. As a matter of fact Bob even jokingly said to Doug near the end "The Bombers won didn't they". For me the only things that matter are we're 6-2, in first place and have beaten every team in our division with the exception of Saskatchewan who we've yet to play.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: ModAdmin on August 09, 2019, 04:06:36 AM
To consider:

Nichols 81.% pass completion - Arbuckle 62.9%
Harris 100 yards rushing -Williams 21 yards (these were the top rushers on their respective teams)
Medlock 4 for 4 on field goals - Paredes 1 for 1
Winnipeg 7 for 222 yard on punt returns (two for TDs) - Calgary 4 for 22 yards
Winnipeg 4 for 84 yards on kick returns - Calgary 3 for 68 yards
Winnipeg 33.41 mins. possession time - Calgary 26.59 mins.
Winnipeg 2 interceptions - Calgary 0
Winnipeg 103.79 QB efficiency - Calgary 62.9
Winnipeg 26 - Calgary 24

The above stats are a fair indication why Winnipeg won the game. And, they are 6 and 2 - tops in the league.  It was a tough game but Winnipeg found a way to win.  Calgary didn't and they are arguably the second best team in the league.

It was not a perfect game but the Bombers pulled it off.  Enjoy the well-fought win.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 09, 2019, 04:10:29 AM
To consider:

Nichols 81.% pass completion - Arbuckle 62.9%
Harris 100 yards rushing -Williams 21 yards (these were the top rushers on their respective teams)
Medlock 4 for 4 on field goals - Paredes 1 for 1
Winnipeg 7 for 222 yard on punt returns (two for TDs) - Calgary 4 for 22 yards
Winnipeg 4 for 84 yards on kick returns - Calgary 3 for 68 yards
Winnipeg 33.41 mins. possession time - Calgary 26.59 mins.
Winnipeg 2 interceptions - Calgary 0
Winnipeg 103.79 QB efficiency - Calgary 62.9
Winnipeg 26 - Calgary 24

The above stats are a fair indication why Winnipeg won the game. And, they are 6 and 2 - tops in the league.  It was a tough game but Winnipeg found a way to win.  Calgary didn't and they are arguably the second best team in the league.

It was not a perfect game but the Bombers pulled it off.  Enjoy the well-fought win.

Hear, hear, it wasn't perfect but it was a team win and that's the only thing that counts.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In Edmonton on August 09, 2019, 04:14:37 AM
To consider:

Nichols 81.% pass completion - Arbuckle 62.9%
Harris 100 yards rushing -Williams 21 yards (these were the top rushers on their respective teams)
Medlock 4 for 4 on field goals - Paredes 1 for 1
Winnipeg 7 for 222 yard on punt returns (two for TDs) - Calgary 4 for 22 yards
Winnipeg 4 for 84 yards on kick returns - Calgary 3 for 68 yards
Winnipeg 33.41 mins. possession time - Calgary 26.59 mins.
Winnipeg 2 interceptions - Calgary 0
Winnipeg 103.79 QB efficiency - Calgary 62.9
Winnipeg 26 - Calgary 24

The above stats are a fair indication why Winnipeg won the game. And, they are 6 and 2 - tops in the league.  It was a tough game but Winnipeg found a way to win.  Calgary didn't and they are arguably the second best team in the league.

It was not a perfect game but the Bombers pulled it off.  Enjoy the well-fought win.

Absolutely. It's not going in an art gallery, but it doesn't have to. Won all three phases, even if only barely. Won the game against a quality opponent. Steadied the ship. Also sending a message that there's only one team who should expect to win at IGF. 6-2. 4-0 at home. Beat every West team we've played. First place. Sleep well.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bomb squad on August 09, 2019, 04:15:13 AM
Totally agree. Listening to the postgame show tonight you'd think that the Bombers had lost with all the complaints. As a matter of fact Bob even jokingly said to Doug near the end "The Bombers won didn't they". For me the only things that matter are we're 6-2, in first place and have beaten every team in our division with the exception of Saskatchewan who we've yet to play.

The guy that was on there just before he said that was a raving lunatic.



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: thunderNlightning on August 09, 2019, 04:15:22 AM
To consider:

Nichols 81.% pass completion - Arbuckle 62.9%
Harris 100 yards rushing -Williams 21 yards (these were the top rushers on their respective teams)
Medlock 4 for 4 on field goals - Paredes 1 for 1
Winnipeg 7 for 222 yard on punt returns (two for TDs) - Calgary 4 for 22 yards
Winnipeg 4 for 84 yards on kick returns - Calgary 3 for 68 yards
Winnipeg 33.41 mins. possession time - Calgary 26.59 mins.
Winnipeg 2 interceptions - Calgary 0
Winnipeg 103.79 QB efficiency - Calgary 62.9
Winnipeg 26 - Calgary 24

The above stats are a fair indication why Winnipeg won the game. And, they are 6 and 2 - tops in the league.  It was a tough game but Winnipeg found a way to win.  Calgary didn't and they are arguably the second best team in the league.

It was not a perfect game but the Bombers pulled it off.  Enjoy the well-fought win.

To be fair the completion rate is going to be that high when your throwing dump passes and check downs to Harris 75% of the time.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: In Motion on August 09, 2019, 04:20:06 AM
All that matters is the W. Get 1st place, and we're one win away
from going for the Cup. This season is our best shot at it in ages
in my opinion. I've been a fan since 1961, and can tell you nothing
is more exciting than your team winning a Cup!  :)


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: ModAdmin on August 09, 2019, 04:43:52 AM
The Bombers capitalized on their opportunities on offence (limited) on defence (steady) and on special teams (outstanding).  They stopped Calgary at key times and killed the clock at the end of game.  I'll take it. 


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: BBFANDM on August 09, 2019, 05:05:54 AM
The Bombers capitalized on their opportunities on offence (limited) on defence (steady) and on special teams (outstanding).  They stopped Calgary at key times and killed the clock at the end of game.  I'll take it. 

Yes but Calgary had their 2nd string QB playing and if it wasn't for 2 Special Teams TDs we probably lose.

And our passing game needs to improve otherwise we are solid in most other areas this year.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: pjrocksmb on August 09, 2019, 05:11:42 AM
YOU THINK WE WERE LUCKY!!
GOD Nichols brutal again!

nope, he was average, efficient and his rating was over 100.  He also secured the victory.

Nichols cannot handle press period!!
Sure he can and has a winning record to prove it this year and since 2016
Winnipeggers whine too much. Best team in the league and you guys still complain non-stop.
yup
If you don't like the completion % stat then consider we're 6 - 2 with the best record in the CFL. We've beaten the Stamps, Esks and Lions.


Yup this offensive style does nothing but win.  Not flashy, but effective.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: pjrocksmb on August 09, 2019, 05:15:21 AM
I was actually good with Nichols tonight.  Thought he made some nice plays.
Yup, I called for 200 yards and one Int.  No interceptions secured victory
I love Strevler, but I'm fine with Nicholls most games. I think he realizes a lot of Bomber
fans are not exactly behind him, and it hurts him and has made him lose his confidence.
Actually I don't think the O-line has been giving him enough time recently. 
Totally agree. Listening to the postgame show tonight you'd think that the Bombers had lost with all the complaints. As a matter of fact Bob even jokingly said to Doug near the end "The Bombers won didn't they". For me the only things that matter are we're 6-2, in first place and have beaten every team in our division with the exception of Saskatchewan who we've yet to play.
All that matters is the W. Get 1st place, and we're one win away
from going for the Cup. This season is our best shot at it in ages
in my opinion. I've been a fan since 1961, and can tell you nothing
is more exciting than your team winning a Cup!  :)
agree x3

That was a classic Bob moment! I was thinking we need more Bob mentality on here LOL


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Pigskin on August 09, 2019, 05:18:19 AM
Well he only passed for 177, so you were wrong again, and 8 of those where to AH33 for 44 yards on Check Downs.

Also Strv17 secured the victory by running the clock.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: ModAdmin on August 09, 2019, 05:21:17 AM
Yes but Calgary had their 2nd string QB playing and if it wasn't for 2 Special Teams TDs we probably lose.

And our passing game needs to improve otherwise we are solid in most other areas this year.

The other side of it is that two ST plays helped us to win the game.  And their 2nd string QB played well enough to keep them in the game.  Would Mitchell have made a difference?  Pure speculation.  


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: PurpleReign on August 09, 2019, 05:23:41 AM
Offense didn?t put up an offensive touchdown tonight. Grant scored two punt return TD?s which is rare. Scored 14 of our points there. No BLM tonight which would maybe been a big difference.

Kudos to our defense for stepping up and Harris pounding the ball late.
Win is a win, but we are darn lucky and no thanks to Nichols for this W. again very subpar.

The last time I looked special teams are a part of a football game, actually 1/3 of it. People that say they got lucky because of 2 punt returns just amazes me.  You can say Calgary was very lucky to not get spanked because Winnipeg left a lot of points off the board tonight. If they capitalize on all their chances then this game is a run away for the Bombers. 7 min greater in Time of possession, just let that sink in with two less possessions due to punt returns. The score really flatters Calgary.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Pigskin on August 09, 2019, 05:31:44 AM
The only lucky thing that happen for the bombers tonight, was Arbuckle hit the goal post with a man wide open in the end zone.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: pjrocksmb on August 09, 2019, 05:39:15 AM
The last time I looked special teams are a part of a football game, actually 1/3 of it. People that say they got lucky because of 2 punt returns just amazes me.  You can say Calgary was very lucky to not get spanked because Winnipeg left a lot of points off the board tonight. If they capitalize on all their chances then this game is a run away for the Bombers. 7 min greater in Time of possession, just let that sink in with two less possessions due to punt returns. The score really flatters Calgary.

agree 100% ST is 1/3- great point, our ST >>> theirs tonight


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: BLUEBOMBER on August 09, 2019, 06:19:25 AM
Yes.. LaPolice needs to adjust..  his playcalling is too predictable and other teams can easily know what we are doing every play.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: pjrocksmb on August 09, 2019, 06:27:23 AM
Yes.. LaPolice needs to adjust..  his playcalling is too predictable and other teams can easily know what we are doing every play.

he will figure it out


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: gobombersgo on August 09, 2019, 09:55:59 AM
Yup this offensive style does nothing but win.  Not flashy, but effective.

My concern is what happens come playoff time. They need to show me they can put together TD scoring drives when it's needed.

I sure hope they can nail down 1st place.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Slingin Sammy on August 09, 2019, 11:00:42 AM
To consider:

Nichols 81.% pass completion - Arbuckle 62.9%
Harris 100 yards rushing -Williams 21 yards (these were the top rushers on their respective teams)
Medlock 4 for 4 on field goals - Paredes 1 for 1
Winnipeg 7 for 222 yard on punt returns (two for TDs) - Calgary 4 for 22 yards
Winnipeg 4 for 84 yards on kick returns - Calgary 3 for 68 yards
Winnipeg 33.41 mins. possession time - Calgary 26.59 mins.
Winnipeg 2 interceptions - Calgary 0
Winnipeg 103.79 QB efficiency - Calgary 62.9
Winnipeg 26 - Calgary 24

The above stats are a fair indication why Winnipeg won the game. And, they are 6 and 2 - tops in the league.  It was a tough game but Winnipeg found a way to win.  Calgary didn't and they are arguably the second best team in the league.

It was not a perfect game but the Bombers pulled it off.  Enjoy the well-fought win.

It was a strong team win...spurred on by great ST and D...the concern for me is that the O isn't demonstrating...at least during these last 3 games...that it can be relied upon to possess the ball and get 1st downs when needed to close out games...or to drive the field to come from behind...Nichols reminds me more and more of Tom Burgess...Burgess was the dump and dink King of the CFL...but we won a Cup with him...I'm concerned that our inability to consistently push the ball downfield will make us much easier to defend against....and  I think we've all seen our last 3 opponents clamp down our O efficiency....especially when we need to make first downs in tight games...I'm sure the BB have identified this deficiency and will work to improve it...if we aren't able to improve O play late in ball games...we could end up losing a lot  of close games....I anticipate going forward many games will be tighter and we need the O to come through in the clutch


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: GCn19 on August 09, 2019, 11:10:22 AM
Didn't say I dislike it just that it isn't really a great way to measure success.

Yes the record is what matters but if you think we can win a GC playing like we have lately, I dunno.

Also why is beating BC a flex? Especially considering our game vs them was a lot closer than teams likes Sasks. They have one win

They are a division rival.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: GCn19 on August 09, 2019, 11:11:46 AM
Didn't say I dislike it just that it isn't really a great way to measure success.

Yes the record is what matters but if you think we can win a GC playing like we have lately, I dunno.

Also why is beating BC a flex? Especially considering our game vs them was a lot closer than teams likes Sasks. They have one win

I think that being a multi-dimensional team is exactly the kind of team that can win a Grey Cup.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Norlorne Dr. on August 09, 2019, 11:29:25 AM
The other side of it is that two ST plays helped us to win the game.  And their 2nd string QB played well enough to keep them in the game.  Would Mitchell have made a difference?  Pure speculation.  

Agreed that it is pure speculation, but its hard to think otherwise when comparing a 2 time Grey Cup Champion and CFL all-star to Nick Arbuckle.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: jayrock on August 09, 2019, 12:09:00 PM
I agree a win is a win, especially after being embarrassed two weeks in a row.
My biggest concern right now is wins coming on the backs of kick return TD's. These are great to watch and to boost the momentum in your direction, but at some point in time, the O has to start scoring. Since after this, it is going to really drive home to every other team in the league that you need to get your ST house in order when playing the bombers.
Great Job for Grant, but it wont happen again.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: blue_or_die on August 09, 2019, 12:18:34 PM
I agree a win is a win, especially after being embarrassed two weeks in a row.
My biggest concern right now is wins coming on the backs of kick return TD's. These are great to watch and to boost the momentum in your direction, but at some point in time, the O has to start scoring. Since after this, it is going to really drive home to every other team in the league that you need to get your ST house in order when playing the bombers.
Great Job for Grant, but it wont happen again.

The Riders won a home playoff berth on the back of return TDs and pick 6s all season last year.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Waffler on August 09, 2019, 12:27:36 PM
When we were 5-0 people said we were so well rounded and we could win in different ways. Well, special teams won that one.  I am happy. Would I like more from the passing game? Sure, but I still think this team is the best in the league.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: jayrock on August 09, 2019, 12:33:23 PM
The Riders won a home playoff berth on the back of return TDs and pick 6s all season last year.

What does that have to do with my opinion of thinking the Bombers need to get their O going. They are a good team, but IMO need to be able to score more on O to become GC champs.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: rubanski on August 09, 2019, 12:36:35 PM
T.O.P. Bombers 33:41, Stamps 26:19, despite two S.T. TD's that kept the Bomber offence off the field in the first half.  How do you think that happened?

Exactly, and we lost 2 possessions thanks to Janarion Grant going straight to the house.

This TEAM was better than the Stamps. The end.

The run D continues to be an unstoppable force. You think stamps fans are happy about last nights run game, or run defense?

Where's the love for Roses 6th pick of the year?

Our 3 red zone stalls were highly unusual. The Stamps were lucky we didn't score at least 8 more points (two TDs instead of 2 FGs).

Anyone like Mercy Maston? Dude looked great for a guy that's been here a few days only.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: rubanski on August 09, 2019, 12:37:21 PM
The Riders won a home playoff berth on the back of return TDs and pick 6s all season last year.

Ha! Exaxtly what I was thinking. That team was all D and special teams.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In Edmonton on August 09, 2019, 12:41:42 PM
Special teams is not an equal third to offence and defence. There is only one special teams play per possession, while offence and defence are on the field much longer. Nevertheless, special teams is also not some sort of exhibition. The plays count. In previous games many of us had our poop in a knot over other teams producing big return yardage on us, and how horrible this was. Now, we flipped the script and won a game on the backs of returns and limiting opposition returns. And the wide response here is that we should disregard that and focus on what the offence didn't do. That's absurd. Yes, ST produced 14 points against Calgary. The offence also produced 12 more, and without that, we lose.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: jayrock on August 09, 2019, 12:44:01 PM
Ha! Exaxtly what I was thinking. That team was all D and special teams.

My point exactly, you will not win a GC with ST points alone, you need an O in the CFL


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 12:51:28 PM
Didn't say I dislike it just that it isn't really a great way to measure success.

Yes the record is what matters but if you think we can win a GC playing like we have lately, I dunno.

Also why is beating BC a flex? Especially considering our game vs them was a lot closer than teams likes Sasks. They have one win

I think we can win the Grey Cup with Nichols. Would I rather have Harris or BLM yes.

It's a team game and we have some great talent. We also have some issues with talent and with play calling.

At the moment we've got series advantages on every west division team. Even though the Lions are horrible who knows what potential injuries to each team will create a downward spiral by one and a rise by another.

A team that finishes in 3rd and getting hot could still end up winning the west.

Finishing 1st would be an advantage but it's not a guarantee.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: BigBlueCrew on August 09, 2019, 12:51:56 PM
Overall a great team win.
The debate is..is it Nichols or Lapo... because as mentioned above take away special teams return tds and we only had Harris and no passing game on offence . That is not good enough

I personally think it's LaPo and I have grown more frustrated with him then I thought I could over the last handful of games. Our play calling is way too predictable. If this was the NFL and we had an extra down to work with then all of the running and short passing wouldn't be an issue. But when drives are stalling when you get a 3 yard run on 1st down and a 5 yard pass on 2nd down then something needs to give. Of course over the course of the game there are drives that are successful, but if you go 2 and out 4 times in a row you're setting yourself up for failure more times than not with this style of offense.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: NewBlue on August 09, 2019, 12:55:25 PM
When we were 5-0 people said we were so well rounded and we could win in different ways. Well, special teams won that one.  I am happy. Would I like more from the passing game? Sure, but I still think this team is the best in the league.

Exactly!  Imagine us firing on all cylinders... ;D


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Norm W on August 09, 2019, 12:55:58 PM
Yes.. LaPolice needs to adjust..  his playcalling is too predictable and other teams can easily know what we are doing every play.

This is my thoughts on Halls defensive schemes... too predictable, offenses seem to be able to put together drives on demand. Bombers capitalized on a couple mistakes to save the day. Your opposition making mistakes can't be part of your game plan.    


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 01:01:19 PM
I don't disagree that we need more fine tuning on offense. It never seems that if we need the offense to do something like come from behind or run out the clock like last night, it's a problem.

OTOH, why was the score so close? Why is it that while we controlled the TOP the Stamps still racked up over 300 yards of offense and had opportunities to win. We can't use the excuse the defense was tired.

I find that more frustrating than anything. 2nd and long, 3rd and 5 turning into 1st downs is not supposed to happen.



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 01:01:49 PM
This is my thoughts on Halls defensive schemes... too predictable, offenses seem to be able to put together drives on demand. Bombers capitalized on a couple mistakes to save the day. Your opposition making mistakes can't be part of your game plan.    

Exactly.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: blue_or_die on August 09, 2019, 01:02:11 PM
What does that have to do with my opinion of thinking the Bombers need to get their O going. They are a good team, but IMO need to be able to score more on O to become GC champs.

You said that what STs accomplished this game "won't happen again", and so my point is that it happened many times for the Riders last year and turned out way better for them than it ought to have.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TBURGESS on August 09, 2019, 01:21:11 PM
We were lucky to win. The goalpost saved a sure TD and we only won by 2. If they score right at the end of the half, the here we go again attitude would have likely crept in to the players.

Nichols had good accuracy even on the long balls. Not his fault that Woli juggled the TD or that the DB made a great play on the Matthews pass. Nichols didn't push the ball downfield and that's a problem. 68 of his 177 passing yards were Harris and Whitehead YAC. In any case it wasn't great QB'ing that won us the game. It was 2 return TD's.

It helped that Calgary lost their RB right off the bat and were playing their backup QB. They likely would have been able to overcome both those things and the 2 return TD's, if they didn't fumble a punt giving us 3 or if their receiver hadn't tipped the ball up for an Int.



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Waffler on August 09, 2019, 01:26:58 PM
The goalpost saved a sure TD

That ball looked over thrown to me. We will never know for sure though.  You could argue Wolitarski had a td taken away too as  Glen Suiter seemed to think.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 09, 2019, 01:31:14 PM
To be fair the completion rate is going to be that high when your throwing dump passes and check downs to Harris 75% of the time.
yeah true...but you are eating up the clock...generally sustaining drives doing that with a guy like Harris and not coughing up the ball..and what did it result in?


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 09, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
To consider:

Nichols 81.% pass completion - Arbuckle 62.9%
Harris 100 yards rushing -Williams 21 yards (these were the top rushers on their respective teams)
Medlock 4 for 4 on field goals - Paredes 1 for 1
Winnipeg 7 for 222 yard on punt returns (two for TDs) - Calgary 4 for 22 yards
Winnipeg 4 for 84 yards on kick returns - Calgary 3 for 68 yards
Winnipeg 33.41 mins. possession time - Calgary 26.59 mins.
Winnipeg 2 interceptions - Calgary 0
Winnipeg 103.79 QB efficiency - Calgary 62.9
Winnipeg 26 - Calgary 24

The above stats are a fair indication why Winnipeg won the game. And, they are 6 and 2 - tops in the league.  It was a tough game but Winnipeg found a way to win.  Calgary didn't and they are arguably the second best team in the league.

It was not a perfect game but the Bombers pulled it off.  Enjoy the well-fought win.

well said...tho not a sexy game offensive wise...it was a game we controlled...didn't make any errors and won..moving forward tho, would like to see more aggresive of an offensive approach


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: lenny on August 09, 2019, 01:33:57 PM
No SP TDs and it's a different game. Lapo played it conservatively and Matt was likely advised to mainly get the ball in scoring position but not to stretch the field for the most part. In this game clearly Lapo wanted Matt to game manage and he certainly did so. The heavy lifting was left to Harris to grind the clock with the running game and short yardage low risk passing for Matt.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: theaardvark on August 09, 2019, 01:37:11 PM
Yes but Calgary had their 2nd string QB playing and if it wasn't for 2 Special Teams TDs we probably lose.

And our passing game needs to improve otherwise we are solid in most other areas this year.

2 ST TD were awesome, but assuming that those changes of possession would not have resulted in scores had the ST's not scored them, well... kinda dismissive of our O.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 09, 2019, 01:39:19 PM
Special teams...and touchdowns scored by them are part of the game, and with good special teams...you always...always give your team a chance to win...and last I checked..all touchdowns count regardless of how they are scored.

You can flip it around and say Calgary lost because they had poor play from their special teams so they better tighten up there....any game can be spun any which way you want...but in this game we won the defensive side of the game...time of possession portion....turn over battle....special teams and return yards gained/given up aspect and had the better ground game...10 times outta 10 you win that game in my experience


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: theaardvark on August 09, 2019, 01:40:25 PM
The only lucky thing that happen for the bombers tonight, was Arbuckle hit the goal post with a man wide open in the end zone.

Watching that again, I'm not sure that ball is catchable inbounds...


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: theaardvark on August 09, 2019, 01:42:05 PM
My point exactly, you will not win a GC with ST points alone, you need an O in the CFL

Yup... that's the saying right?  O wins championships... oh wait...


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bomb squad on August 09, 2019, 01:49:01 PM
The only lucky thing that happen for the bombers tonight, was Arbuckle hit the goal post with a man wide open in the end zone.

I'm not totally buying that was a sure td. The ball was on a high trajectory and it could very well have either took the receiver out of bounds or allowed the db to close on the receiver and make a play.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bowlerdude on August 09, 2019, 01:49:42 PM
That ball looked over thrown to me. We will never know for sure though.  You could argue Wolitarski had a td taken away too as  Glen Suiter seemed to think.

Arbuckle's pass that hit the post was overthrown, no question in my mind. In a way, that's getting lucky too, I suppose... but I'm pretty sure that was not catchable in bounds even if it didn't hit the post.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Lincoln Locomotive on August 09, 2019, 01:51:45 PM
That ball looked over thrown to me. We will never know for sure though.  You could argue Wolitarski had a td taken away too as  Glen Suiter seemed to think.
this is football....players drop passes....footballs hit goal posts....fact is when the chips were down we took the ball away and our O was able to run out the clock.    Bombers are putting points on the board and if we can do it with STs, Defence and Offence combined I'm good with it.   Woli sure looked like he had that TD pass.....however that slight bobble as he went out of bounds negated the catch.   We score a TD  there or we convert that 3rd down inside the 30 and we win by a wider margin.   Geez....we just beat a team who has literally owned us in a battle for first (even if it was their back up QB) and this fan is just going to soak that in for awhile rather than questioning Nichols or LaPo.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: BigBlueCrew on August 09, 2019, 01:53:28 PM
People blame Nichols for not throwing the deep ball, but he can't throw any bombs if there aren't any being run. Why have we only seen Whitehead targeted on a deep ball 3 times this year? We should be testing secondaries deep with his speed every now and then, yet we don't. Same with Matthews. Not even deep shots to these guys, and this is due to LaPo, not Nichols.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TBURGESS on August 09, 2019, 02:02:23 PM
That ball looked over thrown to me. We will never know for sure though.  You could argue Wolitarski had a td taken away too as  Glen Suiter seemed to think.
I disagree with Glen Sutor. Woli didn't have full possession until after his foot was out of bounds. The ball isn't caught until it stops moving. If Woli had been in bounds, it would have been a catch.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bomb squad on August 09, 2019, 02:03:01 PM
My point exactly, you will not win a GC with ST points alone, you need an O in the CFL

I get your point, but there's no comparison between our offence this year and the Rider offence last year. Right now, this team is clearly the best in the league and would win the GC.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: rubanski on August 09, 2019, 02:19:18 PM
The Arbuckel goal post throw. I had a great look at it as my seats were about 7 yards in to the end zone (and 15 rows up) along the sideline. That ball was definitely going to land out of bounds.

If it was catch-able, it would have been catch of the year material.

Still don't think we were "lucky" to win. We beat a good team in a close game.

It's not like Calgary out gained us by 200 yards or something.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Lincoln Locomotive on August 09, 2019, 02:23:57 PM
I disagree with Glen Sutor. Woli didn't have full possession until after his foot was out of bounds. The ball isn't caught until it stops moving. If Woli had been in bounds, it would have been a catch.
yep...agreed.   Took another look and he didn't have full control as he was going out of bounds.   That wasn't really on Nichols as it was a perfectly thrown strike.   Woli usually makes those


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bomb squad on August 09, 2019, 02:24:33 PM
I disagree with Glen Sutor. Woli didn't have full possession until after his foot was out of bounds. The ball isn't caught until it stops moving. If Woli had been in bounds, it would have been a catch.

It was really close and I don't have any problem with the no overturn. But I think there was a point, brief as it was, where he had possession and his foot was touching the ground inbounds. That's all that's required. What happened after that point, in or out of bounds, is irrelevant.

But I will look at it again and revise my post if necessary.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: blue_or_die on August 09, 2019, 02:26:04 PM
We were lucky to win. The goalpost saved a sure TD and we only won by 2. If they score right at the end of the half, the here we go again attitude would have likely crept in to the players.

Nichols had good accuracy even on the long balls. Not his fault that Woli juggled the TD or that the DB made a great play on the Matthews pass. Nichols didn't push the ball downfield and that's a problem. 68 of his 177 passing yards were Harris and Whitehead YAC. In any case it wasn't great QB'ing that won us the game. It was 2 return TD's.

It helped that Calgary lost their RB right off the bat and were playing their backup QB. They likely would have been able to overcome both those things and the 2 return TD's, if they didn't fumble a punt giving us 3 or if their receiver hadn't tipped the ball up for an Int.



So many ifs in this post.

How about if Neufeld is 100%, we get better pass pro and Nichols gets a few longer balls out? Or if Adams is healthy and he is able to make one great catch for a big gain, flipping the field? If these things were true, Calgary ought to be considered lucky we didn't clobber them.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TBURGESS on August 09, 2019, 02:29:11 PM
So many ifs in this post.

How about if Neufeld is 100%, we get better pass pro and Nichols gets a few longer balls out? Or if Adams is healthy and he is able to make one great catch for a big gain, flipping the field? If these things were true, Calgary ought to be considered lucky we didn't clobber them.
What a silly "argument". I had 1 If in my post.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 09, 2019, 02:40:16 PM
we were better on special teams..takeaways...time of possession..and Cgy had 19 more total yards than us on offence so not like they dominated us....so why is that a lucky win?

we did what we had to and ground out a tough win against a good team..stayed in first and have beat every western team we faced...why complain


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Lincoln Locomotive on August 09, 2019, 02:43:09 PM
What's critical in this game is our TOP especially considering the two quick punt return TDs with our O not even stepping on the field.   We are leading the league in rushing which is a big reason we are currently at 6-2 on the season!   Another factor aside from the 3 picks Nichols threw in Hamilton, is our QB still  has a very good efficiency rating....2nd best in the league just behind Harris.  


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Lincoln Locomotive on August 09, 2019, 02:44:01 PM
we were better on special teams..takeaways...time of possession..and Cgy had 19 more total yards than us on offence so not like they dominated us....so why is that a lucky win?

we did what we had to and ground out a tough win against a good team..stayed in first and have beat every western team we faced...why complain
precisely!


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: PurpleReign on August 09, 2019, 02:46:44 PM
We were lucky to win. The goalpost saved a sure TD and we only won by 2. If they score right at the end of the half, the here we go again attitude would have likely crept in to the players.

Nichols had good accuracy even on the long balls. Not his fault that Woli juggled the TD or that the DB made a great play on the Matthews pass. Nichols didn't push the ball downfield and that's a problem. 68 of his 177 passing yards were Harris and Whitehead YAC. In any case it wasn't great QB'ing that won us the game. It was 2 return TD's.

It helped that Calgary lost their RB right off the bat and were playing their backup QB. They likely would have been able to overcome both those things and the 2 return TD's, if they didn't fumble a punt giving us 3 or if their receiver hadn't tipped the ball up for an Int.




Let me fix this for you.  Calgary on this night was very fortunate they didn?t get blown away

Grant fumbles on punt return giving Calgary points.
Grant has another beautiful return called back on a hold in great field position.
Bombers mess up on 3rd down, running outside instead of up the middle. Killing a drive in Calgary territory.
3 bomber drives stall in red zone. 2 point win is very flattering to Calgary who were out possessed by 7 minutes!!!


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Norm W on August 09, 2019, 02:49:30 PM
Woli didn't have full possession until after his foot was out of bounds. The ball isn't caught until it stops moving. If Woli had been in bounds, it would have been a catch.

I've never heard that standard used as a the definition of possession or a catch, do you have a source?   


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 02:50:05 PM

Let me fix this for you.  Calgary on this night was very fortunate they didn?t get blown away

Grant fumbles on punt return giving Calgary points.
Grant has another beautiful return called back on a hold in great field position.
Bombers mess up on 3rd down, running outside instead of up the middle. Killing a drive in Calgary territory.
3 bomber drives stall in red zone. 2 point win is very flattering to Calgary who were out possessed by 7 minutes!!!

Actually Sayles had the pic just before half time after the Grant fumble. So no points resulted from his fumble.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 02:51:30 PM
I've never heard that standard used as a the definition of possession or a catch, do you have a source?  

The wording may not be correct but the concept is correct. You need possession in bounds and Woli didn't manage that. He was bobbling as he went out of bounds.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: PurpleReign on August 09, 2019, 02:51:42 PM
I disagree with Glen Sutor. Woli didn't have full possession until after his foot was out of bounds. The ball isn't caught until it stops moving. If Woli had been in bounds, it would have been a catch.

Agree that was not a catch, I was sitting where it happened. There was a slight wobble of the ball, as soon as he gained possession again his foot touched the white line.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bunker on August 09, 2019, 02:53:58 PM
We were lucky to win. The goalpost saved a sure TD and we only won by 2. If they score right at the end of the half, the here we go again attitude would have likely crept in to the players.

Nichols had good accuracy even on the long balls. Not his fault that Woli juggled the TD or that the DB made a great play on the Matthews pass. Nichols didn't push the ball downfield and that's a problem. 68 of his 177 passing yards were Harris and Whitehead YAC. In any case it wasn't great QB'ing that won us the game. It was 2 return TD's.

It helped that Calgary lost their RB right off the bat and were playing their backup QB. They likely would have been able to overcome both those things and the 2 return TD's, if they didn't fumble a punt giving us 3 or if their receiver hadn't tipped the ball up for an Int.


Most CFL games are decided by less than 14 points, and other than in blow out victories, you can always come up with  couple of "what if's" that change the outcome of the game.

You have no way of knowing if the ball that hit the goal post was going to be caught or was going out of bounds. And definitely  no way of knowing what effect it would have had on the bombers attitude if the play had succeeded.

You mention the Stamps lost their running back, and back up QB (who seems to be very good, to the point where some Stamp fans are wondering how much of a drop off there really is without BLM), but fail to mention we lost Speller and had to play a rookie on the O-line, had a new player in our secondary, were missing our best receiver, and we're without arguably are best interior O-lineman,  Neufeld. We were also without our best or second best DE, and had to rotate in a rookie in his first CFL game.

You talk about "iif" Stamps had not give us the fumbled punt. I can counter with what if we had managed to score a touchdown on first and goal from the 7.

You talk about "if" the pass had not been tipped, but ignore that if was not a well thrown ball, which may reflect pressure by Bombers d-line. I can counter what if Wolf had caught the ball for the TD.

I'm surprised you did not bring up the Stamps short week as well.

The list is potentially endless, and you are free to create an imaginary game in your head where all the breaks go against the bombers and we lose. But it's really a pointless exercise.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 09, 2019, 02:55:00 PM
Actually Sayles had the pic just before half time after the Grant fumble. So no points resulted from his fumble.
TRUE...But we "may" have put more points on the board as well...so we didn't get hurt by it, but we could have helped ourselves


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 02:59:50 PM
TRUE...But we "may" have put more points on the board as well...so we didn't get hurt by it, but we could have helped ourselves

Perhaps. There was only about 30 seconds left when he fumbled and we would have been deep in our own end.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: trapper on August 09, 2019, 03:08:24 PM
Yes.  There is some luck to be able to play one of the top teams at home after they have a very short week.  That luck is with the schedule makers.  Fatigue was apparent on the stamps.

That said, you make your own luck.  A win is a win.  There are many faucets to this team game and ST stepped up, the defense made plays when they were there, and the offense didn't need to put up huge numbers.  The offense played good mostly mistake free ball.  That is what is needed to win games.

It was an exciting game to watch as a fan.  Reminded me of the Als/Redblacks last week.  Bombers had a great team win.  Fans and players should be happy.  Labour Day and Banjo Bowl will be a challenge.



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Jesse on August 09, 2019, 03:18:57 PM
The Riders won a home playoff berth on the back of return TDs and pick 6s all season last year.

But they didn't get first place or win the Grey Cup. Which is what we're going for here.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 09, 2019, 03:19:11 PM
I don't see the Rider's being that much of a challenge...they beat BC..T.O and a severly banged up Hamilton...and they too now are in injury trouble...


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: DM83 on August 09, 2019, 03:29:52 PM
Nice win.  A lucky win
Stamps were on the path to kick the winning field goal. Good pressure from the D-line forced a hurried poor pass, and the receiver couldn't stop to catch the ball.  Deflected it into Roses hands.  Game over.
Great returns. Punt coverage very good also.

Unfortunately Nichols. Still could not make a play to win the game, a first down, when needed.
Let's face it Lapo and Nichols can't make a play when needed. That's a given.

Ritchie Hall called a better. Game. And the defence was more accountable.

Certainly entertaining. Glad we won. Good team effort vs. The Champs.Who are the receivers for Calgary?. They didn't help Arbuckle, as they has a few drops.Their running backs are bad.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In Edmonton on August 09, 2019, 03:37:32 PM
Nice win.  A lucky win
Stamps were on the path to kick the winning field goal. Good pressure from the D-line forced a hurried poor pass, and the receiver couldn't stop to catch the ball.  Deflected it into Roses hands.  Game over.
Great returns. Punt coverage very good also.

Unfortunately Nichols. Still could not make a play to win the game, a first down, when needed.
Let's face it Lapo and Nichols can't make a play when needed. That's a given.

Ritchie Hall called a better. Game. And the defence was more accountable.

Certainly entertaining. Glad we won. Good team effort vs. The Champs.Who are the receivers for Calgary?. They didn't help Arbuckle, as they has a few drops.Their running backs are bad.

We outplayed them. We beat them.

They were lucky that Wolitarski bobbled a sure TD. They were lucky that Grant fumbled a punt. They were lucky that Matthews dropped a pass that landed in his hands. They were lucky that the game was as close as it was.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: blue_or_die on August 09, 2019, 03:55:53 PM
What a silly "argument". I had 1 If in my post.

We were lucky to win. The goalpost saved a sure TD and we only won by 2. If they score right at the end of the half, the here we go again attitude would have likely crept in to the players.

Nichols had good accuracy even on the long balls. Not his fault that Woli juggled the TD or that the DB made a great play on the Matthews pass. Nichols didn't push the ball downfield and that's a problem. 68 of his 177 passing yards were Harris and Whitehead YAC. In any case it wasn't great QB'ing that won us the game. It was 2 return TD's.

It helped that Calgary lost their RB right off the bat and were playing their backup QB. They likely would have been able to overcome both those things and the 2 return TD's, if they didn't fumble a punt giving us 3 or if their receiver hadn't tipped the ball up for an Int.



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: blue_or_die on August 09, 2019, 03:58:17 PM
But they didn't get first place or win the Grey Cup. Which is what we're going for here.

No, but my point is that the Riders had multiple games where they had massive help from defensive and ST points, and jayrock said that we won't be scoring 2 TDs on STs again this year. Clearly this is possible.

My point wasn't that it's a good way to win or something teams ought to rely on.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In BC on August 09, 2019, 04:00:04 PM
Calgary was lucky that Williams returned a K/O for a TD last week against Edmonton. That was a game where Edmonton won TOP significantly as well as yardage total.

It still counted as a win. Why is it any different than Winnipeg winning because of return TD's?

Last week the Argos had a 78 yard return that set up a TD. Good plays / luck/ whatever you want to call it is part of the CFL game.





Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Nic16 on August 09, 2019, 04:29:14 PM
The win was not as lucky as some might think.
QB - slight edge to the Game Manager due to Arbuckles 2 costly INT?s.
RB - Harris AINEC.
Receivers - Stamps by a good margin.
OL - BB kept Nichols clean for the most part and the run game was a big reason for winning TOP.
Front 7 - edge given to the BB for stopping the run and getting in Arbuckles face frequently.
Secondary - the 2 INTs make this a sawoff, although the Stamps secondary is probably still the best in the league.
ST?s - 2 TD?s and a 55 yarder...?nut said.

Definitely a close game that was won in the trenches and by ST?s...like many close games are.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In Edmonton on August 09, 2019, 05:05:10 PM
I see some people suggesting that we won't have 2 return TDs in a game again this year, and as a result were are eternally hooped.

In our six wins:

BC: Zero Kick Return TDs
Edm: Zero Kick Return TDs
Ottawa: Zero Kick Return TDs
Toronto: One Kick Return TD
Ottawa: Zero Kick Return TDs
Calgary: Two Kick Return TDs

There is strong empirical evidence that the Bombers have, and can win games without two kick return TDs. I suspect that they will pull of wins without multiple kick returns as the season progresses.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bowlerdude on August 09, 2019, 05:31:41 PM
People blame Nichols for not throwing the deep ball, but he can't throw any bombs if there aren't any being run. Why have we only seen Whitehead targeted on a deep ball 3 times this year? We should be testing secondaries deep with his speed every now and then, yet we don't. Same with Matthews. Not even deep shots to these guys, and this is due to LaPo, not Nichols.

There were deep plays called. They almost entirely turned into checkdowns to Harris. Having said that, you can probably attribute a lot of that to Calgary having a very good secondary and to our OL not pass protecting all that well.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 09, 2019, 05:56:35 PM

Let me fix this for you.  Calgary on this night was very fortunate they didn?t get blown away

Grant fumbles on punt return giving Calgary points.
Grant has another beautiful return called back on a hold in great field position.
Bombers mess up on 3rd down, running outside instead of up the middle. Killing a drive in Calgary territory.
3 bomber drives stall in red zone. 2 point win is very flattering to Calgary who were out possessed by 7 minutes!!!

Bombers were very good in the red zone earlier in the season, if they can get back to that level of efficiency their victories will be much more convincing.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TBURGESS on August 09, 2019, 06:09:18 PM
Grant's fumble cost nothing because the goalpost made a great play, preventing a TD, then Sayles made another great play with a pick.

They're lucky we took a penalty? Nah.

Bombers 3rd down miss was a great defensive play. Met Streveler head on and didn't give him even a foot after that. That's not luck. They get paid to play too.

I guess we stopped ourselves on the 3 drives? Nothing to do with the Calgary defence at all?

Blue_Or_Die: You're right 3 if's. My bad.



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In Edmonton on August 09, 2019, 06:41:24 PM
Every game, for every team is filled with ifs and what ifs.

The home game against Ottawa comes to mind. What if we don't recover Harris' fumble deep in our own end when the score was 0-0? What if we don't immediately follow that possession with a pick-6? What if instead of a punt single, Ottawa pinned us with a coffin corner punt?

Every if and what if comes with what actually happened. Last night:

What if Wolitarski catches that pass? What if Arbuckle doesn't hit the upright with a pass? What if Grant doesn't take two to the house? What if BLM played?

Well, Wolitarski didn't catch the pass, the upright made an outstanding defensive play, Grant made some history, and BLM wore a goofy headband on the sideline. That's how it goes.

People are also saying that we can't win a Grey Cup playing like that. Well, it's a good thing that we weren't playing the Grey Cup Game last night. There has also never been an undefeated CFL team, so even the best teams will lose, and even the best teams will sputter from time to time.

There is no single dominant team this season. I like our chances matching up against anyone else on any field on any day.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: pjrocksmb on August 09, 2019, 07:01:52 PM
Every game, for every team is filled with ifs and what ifs.

The home game against Ottawa comes to mind. What if we don't recover Harris' fumble deep in our own end when the score was 0-0? What if we don't immediately follow that possession with a pick-6? What if instead of a punt single, Ottawa pinned us with a coffin corner punt?

Every if and what if comes with what actually happened. Last night:

What if Wolitarski catches that pass? What if Arbuckle doesn't hit the upright with a pass? What if Grant doesn't take two to the house? What if BLM played?

Well, Wolitarski didn't catch the pass, the upright made an outstanding defensive play, Grant made some history, and BLM wore a goofy headband on the sideline. That's how it goes.

People are also saying that we can't win a Grey Cup playing like that. Well, it's a good thing that we weren't playing the Grey Cup Game last night. There has also never been an undefeated CFL team, so even the best teams will lose, and even the best teams will sputter from time to time.

There is no single dominant team this season. I like our chances matching up against anyone else on any field on any day.

great post, man agree 100%


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: bowlerdude on August 09, 2019, 07:03:02 PM
Grant's fumble cost nothing because the goalpost made a great play, preventing a TD, then Sayles made another great play with a pick.

They're lucky we took a penalty? Nah.

They kind of are lucky we took a penalty. It was probably illegal contact but it was a ticky-tack call that doesn't always get called that way.

I honestly don't think there's any way the goal post prevented a TD. I've seen that throw several times and have yet to see one that looks like it was catchable. Maybe we're lucky Arbuckle missed the throw, I dunno, but that pass was going incomplete regardless of whether or not it hit the post.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Pigskin on August 09, 2019, 07:11:03 PM
Interesting, but you still took Calgary to beat Winnipeg.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: blue girl on August 09, 2019, 07:55:29 PM
This is the way that I see it.
We led in TOP even though our 2 TDs were by punt return. We were able to do this by putting together time consuming drives by running the ball.
We played the game without Adams and Jeffcoat and lost Speller and Humes during the game.
Maybe it was an ugly win but at the end of the season all that matters is how many wins we have not how we got them.
BTW I apologize for picking Calgary. The lesson I have learned is that after a Bomber loss wait a few days to make my pick for the next game.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Blue In Edmonton on August 09, 2019, 08:49:28 PM
This is the way that I see it.
We led in TOP even though our 2 TDs were by punt return. We were able to do this by putting together time consuming drives by running the ball.
We played the game without Adams and Jeffcoat and lost Speller and Humes during the game.
Maybe it was an ugly win but at the end of the season all that matters is how many wins we have not how we got them.
BTW I apologize for picking Calgary. The lesson I have learned is that after a Bomber loss wait a few days to make my pick for the next game.

Leading in TOP...Yeah, but explosion plays. Must have explosion plays.

No Adams, Jeffcoat and losing Speller and Humes in game...Yeah, but only the other team's injuries matter and cheapen our win.

Ugly win...Yeah, but it's more fun to complain.

I picked Calgary, too. Not sorry for that. Felt that all things considered coming into the game that they would beat us in a close one. I over-estimated Arbuckle in my thinking, having not watched him play very much but only reading about his play.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: buckzumhoff on August 09, 2019, 08:59:49 PM
A good win.  Should have won by more, with the chances we had. But special teams was very good.  Against a team that is good in that dept. They played good against Edmonton last week.  Defense gave up some yards. But they were forcing Calgary to throw more in the centre. When they did throw to the corner , we intercepted and knocked down a lot of passes. Big hits by Winnipeg, especially on that fumble by Calgary. He knocked that guy so far back could hear it from the other end of the field.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: John T. on August 10, 2019, 12:26:41 AM

People are also saying that we can't win a Grey Cup playing like that.

And these same people were either not around, or don't remember 1988, when we played exactly like that, only worse, for the entire season, had an offense that makes this year's team look like Warren Moon's Eskimos at their peak, finished a weak-but-lucky 9-9, and won the Grey Cup on the most incredibly lucky turnover you'll ever see with a minute left in the game.

Saying definitively what the Bombers can or can't do just makes people look stupid.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Knocker42 on August 10, 2019, 12:58:21 AM
And these same people were either not around, or don't remember 1988, when we played exactly like that, only worse, for the entire season, had an offense that makes this year's team look like Warren Moon's Eskimos at their peak, finished a weak-but-lucky 9-9, and won the Grey Cup on the most incredibly lucky turnover you'll ever see with a minute left in the game.

Saying definitively what the Bombers can or can't do just makes people look stupid.
So true, John T.
Some (on the other site, at least) would like to see the coaching staff replaced along with the starting quarterback. Not sure how many teams sitting in first place would countenance such a move.  And if the top place team does that, what would the other teams do?
Can you imagine how much confusion there would be for the next few games?
Fortunately those advocating such draconian moves will not be the ones making decisions.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 10, 2019, 02:39:03 AM
Every game, for every team is filled with ifs and what ifs.

The home game against Ottawa comes to mind. What if we don't recover Harris' fumble deep in our own end when the score was 0-0? What if we don't immediately follow that possession with a pick-6? What if instead of a punt single, Ottawa pinned us with a coffin corner punt?

Every if and what if comes with what actually happened. Last night:

What if Wolitarski catches that pass? What if Arbuckle doesn't hit the upright with a pass? What if Grant doesn't take two to the house? What if BLM played?

Well, Wolitarski didn't catch the pass, the upright made an outstanding defensive play, Grant made some history, and BLM wore a goofy headband on the sideline. That's how it goes.

People are also saying that we can't win a Grey Cup playing like that. Well, it's a good thing that we weren't playing the Grey Cup Game last night. There has also never been an undefeated CFL team, so even the best teams will lose, and even the best teams will sputter from time to time.

There is no single dominant team this season. I like our chances matching up against anyone else on any field on any day.

The same things can and do happen in playoff games and even in G.C. games, it's football, it should be expected.  I've yet to see a perfect game played by any team.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: John T. on August 10, 2019, 02:46:03 PM
So true, John T.
Some (on the other site, at least) would like to see the coaching staff replaced along with the starting quarterback. Not sure how many teams sitting in first place would countenance such a move.  And if the top place team does that, what would the other teams do?
Can you imagine how much confusion there would be for the next few games?
Fortunately those advocating such draconian moves will not be the ones making decisions.

The FACT remains that one of the worst-ever offenses in Bomber history (Tim Burke-level bad) won the Grey Cup in 1988, and two of the greatest Bomber teams of all-time (1960 and 2001) didn't.

So get a grip, people...


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TecnoGenius on August 12, 2019, 05:34:28 AM
I missed this thread the first time through.  Just read it all now.  I just want to say this is one of the best threads I've seen on here in a long time.  Almost entirely "clean", no unsportsmanlikes or URs.  Great ideas put forth and rational discussion!  If only they could all be like this...

Nichols cannot handle press period!!

Then why don't all teams play nothing but press, every play, against Nichols?  Are they doing that?  I don't think so.  So I guess Nichols can handle press (even if it means just giving it to Harris).

Winnipeggers whine too much. Best team in the league and you guys still complain non-stop.

:D :D  You said it.  At least the 3 board positrons get a brief respite this week after beating the "unbeatable" CGY.

In the broadcast pre game Sanchez said he initially put the blame last week on Nichols in the 2nd half. However when he watched the game film he saw the Argos putting enormous pressure quickly not allowing Nichols time.

Beat me to it.  I was going to add that to my lengthy analysis of the TOR game in its GDT thread.  Sanchez basically read verbatim from my posts there!  ;) :D  I'd think Sanchez knows a bit about D and pressure!

Medlock 4 for 4 on field goals - Paredes 1 for 1

I think WPG has come up with a formula for beating CGY, and they came up with it last year.  Play extremely conservative, clean ball, and aim to get in FG range on every possession.  Don't take risks in the red zone (hence our zero TDs).  Take the points, rinse, repeat.  This was our formula in the '18 WF.  We didn't quite pull it off.

The other side of the equation is having our D get stops.  Limit their drives.  Try for turnovers.  Worked this week, but didn't in the WF.  That's why we keep improving our D every year (inch by inch).  Pressure by Jefferson may be the magic elixir to put us over the top.

I like it.  If we keep following that formula, it won't matter if we can't put up TDs.  We'll see CGY in the WF anyhow, not the GC.  In the GC we can open it all up and take the shots.

To be fair the completion rate is going to be that high when your throwing dump passes and check downs to Harris 75% of the time.

Someone said in the GDT thread that not all throws to Harris are dumps.  There were at least 2 called draw dumps and screen-type plays where AH was the #1 read.  Not all dumps are "panic panic, throw to AH!".  Certainly quite a few were, but not all!

Here's the other thing you're missing: CGY was not spying Harris or otherwise taking him out of the game as most teams have tried to do this year.  I have no idea why their DC thought they could ignore Harris.  Stupid.  Harris had one of his best games against CGY.  Normally CGY is very effective at limiting him.

If a team is giving us AH dumps, why not take them all night long for 7-10 yard gains??

Yes but Calgary had their 2nd string QB playing and if it wasn't for 2 Special Teams TDs we probably lose.

Ya, merely a 2nd string QB who won, what, 5 games for them this year and has looked like a legit #1 starter that many teams would kill to have?  You mean that guy?  When BLM went down, CGY's game actually improved a ton!  BLM was struggling during his brief play time in '19.  I'm not saying BLM isn't better, but don't minimize the win just because it was Arbuckle.  For instance, if BLM is in there, he's not making that 25 yard scramble for a TD that Arbuckle did.

The only lucky thing that happen for the bombers tonight, was Arbuckle hit the goal post with a man wide open in the end zone.
That ball looked over thrown to me. We will never know for sure though.

I think us uberfans who watch too much football have an instant sense of whether a pass is good or not.  There's some instant calculation that takes place in our heads where we have a good feel for whether the placement is going to be good or not.  I know that sitting in the 200-level C field at IGF I had an instant thought of "overthrow" screaming in my brain.  It was simply too high, and too hard.  I didn't even notice it hit the GP live and was searching for the ball, thinking it went into the EZ stands.

Sure, those who had the same "overthrow" thought could be wrong, but I think it's likely our collective judgement may be right on this.  We'll never know.  As someone said, if that ball is caught, it'll be a circus grab because the sprinting WR would have had to instantly stop, then go straight vertical, and high-point that thing without having momentum take them OOB.  Was it Rogers?  No?  Then I doubt it's caught.  (Duron Carter is another player who could possibly catch something like that, as much as I despise the guy.)

What does that have to do with my opinion of thinking the Bombers need to get their O going. They are a good team, but IMO need to be able to score more on O to become GC champs.

I think you're 100% right jayrock, WPG does need more O.  But we've shown we can do it this year.  We're just not consistent.  But in the regular season we haven't needed to be (well, assuming we don't want those 2 lost games to be W's).  '16-'17 "trickery & INTs" WPG couldn't win in the post-season because you can't rely on tricks and INTs.  '18 SSK didn't win in the PS because you can't rely on D scoring.  '19 WPG most likely will not win big in the PS relying on ST TDs and INTs.  But in the regular season, it doesn't matter.  Take the W's and fix what ails our O.

The difference between '18 SSK and '19 WPG is WPG's O is astoundingly good on paper and should be able to get it done on O.  I think they figure it out by the end of the year.  I think our best O has not been seen yet.

I also don't think we need Nichols to pass for huge yardage to win playoffs/GC.  If he can get to a consistent 250-300 yards passing in the playoffs, I think we win easily.  No need for Reilly-type 400 yard numbers.

I disagree with Glen Sutor. Woli didn't have full possession until after his foot was out of bounds. The ball isn't caught until it stops moving. If Woli had been in bounds, it would have been a catch.
It was really close and I don't have any problem with the no overturn. But I think there was a point, brief as it was, where he had possession and his foot was touching the ground inbounds. That's all that's required. What happened after that point, in or out of bounds, is irrelevant.

My take was the same as Squad's.  He bobbles once, in bounds, that doesn't count.  Then he appears to get firm possession while that same foot is still down, like right at the same moment.  Then the foot comes up and he bobbles again and steps out of bounds.  To me that possession with the foot down is all it takes.  His second bobble doesn't matter here because it's not really a "oops I'm losing it" but more like a "I'm repositioning it on purpose to get a better handle".

I wish command had spent some more time on it.  I have a strong feeling that if it was called a TD on the field, it likely stays a TD upon review.  It's simply that close.

Sorry for the long post.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TBURGESS on August 12, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
"I think WPG has come up with a formula for beating CGY, and they came up with it last year.  Play extremely conservative, clean ball, and aim to get in FG range on every possession.  Don't take risks in the red zone (hence our zero TDs).  Take the points, rinse, repeat.  This was our formula in the '18 WF.  We didn't quite pull it off.

The other side of the equation is having our D get stops.  Limit their drives.  Try for turnovers.  Worked this week, but didn't in the WF.  That's why we keep improving our D every year (inch by inch).  Pressure by Jefferson may be the magic elixir to put us over the top.

I like it.  If we keep following that formula, it won't matter if we can't put up TDs.  We'll see CGY in the WF anyhow, not the GC.  In the GC we can open it all up and take the shots.
"

That's the same formula we used in the WF last year. It didn't work then. 50-50 good or was it because we played Calgary on a short week with their backup QB in and got 2 special teams TD's?


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: pjrocksmb on August 12, 2019, 01:22:01 PM
"I think WPG has come up with a formula for beating CGY, and they came up with it last year.  Play extremely conservative, clean ball, and aim to get in FG range on every possession.  Don't take risks in the red zone (hence our zero TDs).  Take the points, rinse, repeat.  This was our formula in the '18 WF.  We didn't quite pull it off.

The other side of the equation is having our D get stops.  Limit their drives.  Try for turnovers.  Worked this week, but didn't in the WF.  That's why we keep improving our D every year (inch by inch).  Pressure by Jefferson may be the magic elixir to put us over the top.

I like it.  If we keep following that formula, it won't matter if we can't put up TDs.  We'll see CGY in the WF anyhow, not the GC.  In the GC we can open it all up and take the shots.
"

That's the same formula we used in the WF last year. It didn't work then. 50-50 good or was it because we played Calgary on a short week with their backup QB in and got 2 special teams TD's?

Our offense will be better in the playoffs this year as long as we are healthy.  Adams will help a bunch.  Our formula is working and I wouldn't change very much.  We will continue to develop our offense and our new receivers will also improve.  Have some faith.  It will come.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: 66 Chevelle on August 12, 2019, 05:12:15 PM
2017 was a season that we seemed to be content with Medlock field goals, that didn't work out so well for us in the end...

personally I believe that we shouldn't work towards merely getting field goals, or, feel like we should constantly be driving for TDs as the only acceptable result... we need to be focus on moving the ball and getting first downs then take what the other team gives us, whether it be a field goal or a touchdown...

working solely for one or the other closes the mind to other options in my opinion...


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: pjrocksmb on August 12, 2019, 06:41:19 PM
2017 was a season that we seemed to be content with Medlock field goals, that didn't work out so well for us in the end...

personally I believe that we shouldn't work towards merely getting field goals, or, feel like we should constantly be driving for TDs as the only acceptable result... we need to be focus on moving the ball and getting first downs then take what the other team gives us, whether it be a field goal or a touchdown...

working solely for one or the other closes the mind to other options in my opinion...

Score more than the other club, I don't care how we do it.  Yes, win the time of possession and have solid consistent drives.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: RebusRankin on August 12, 2019, 07:07:17 PM
We're winning but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement on offense. Hey, MOS is clearly looking to improve week by week (example the rotation of returners after the Nelson injury until we landed on Grant).


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: pjrocksmb on August 12, 2019, 07:16:31 PM
We're winning but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement on offense. Hey, MOS is clearly looking to improve week by week (example the rotation of returners after the Nelson injury until we landed on Grant).
we sure are and I only assume that will continue

always stuff to work on


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TecnoGenius on August 13, 2019, 03:23:35 AM
That's the same formula we used in the WF last year. It didn't work then. 50-50 good or was it because we played Calgary on a short week with their backup QB in and got 2 special teams TD's?

Who knows.  But it worked.  If we had gotten 2 more important drive stops on CGY (especially in the 4th) in the WF, and gotten the 30-40 yards we needed to make more FGs, we could have pulled out a win there.  Is our team good enough to get those 2 stops and 40 yard drives this year?  I think we are.  All else being equal.

People talk about our 2 ST TDs like it happened in isolation.  It's like they think that without those TDs that we'd play the game exactly the same and just lose by the 2 TD.  Without those TDs, Lapo opens it up, we get more creative, and Nichols takes off the kid gloves.  We were up by 2 possessions much of the game, and that dictated (in Lapo's mind) a conservative approach.

The flipside is people complain about Arbuckle's yards.  Well, he was down by 2 possessions sometimes and needed to put on the gas and throw caution to the wind (and INTs to Rose and Sayles).  Nothing in football is in isolation.

2017 was a season that we seemed to be content with Medlock field goals, that didn't work out so well for us in the end...

personally I believe that we shouldn't work towards merely getting field goals, or, feel like we should constantly be driving for TDs as the only acceptable result... we need to be focus on moving the ball and getting first downs then take what the other team gives us, whether it be a field goal or a touchdown...

Don't get me wrong: I'm not talking about our game in general.  I'm just talking about vs CGY.  I think the entire coaching staff prepared all year just to beat CGY.  There are special game plans just for CGY.  The only goal in '19 is to beat CGY.  If we can consistently beat CGY (preferably every single match-up) then we are at the GC and likely win, because no other team is as hard to beat as CGY.

You're right: 2017 was the year where every game's plan against every team was to get in FG range.  And we have moved beyond that.  Well beyond that.  I'm just talking about vs CGY.

And I'm not saying once in FG range vs CGY we quit and just give it to Harris.  We still want the TD!  It's just that I think the TD is gravy and not critical to winning.  From their 40 inwards, I don't see Nichols throwing up any passes into double/triple coverage, or putting balls where they can be picked off.  Once we get to the 40 we have to go into "our best plays" mode.  Or give it to Harris.  But INTs and sacks when in range (vs CGY) are not acceptable.

That's just my take on it.  Grind CGY out.  Limit their TOP.  Get the ball back (turnover if we can, but not required).  Stop Rogers.  Pressure their QB.  Get 30-40 yard drives so we can FG on most possessions.  Try to outsmart them for TDs where we can.  Take the open deep shots like we did twice, when CGY isn't expecting it, and our WRs whiffed on, but make those catches.

Is it the best plan in the world?  Maybe not.  Is it the best they've come up with so far?  I think so.  Again, given the stronger WPG this year, and the weaker CGY, the game plan should be enough to win the WF @IGF.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: gordo on August 13, 2019, 03:34:00 AM
Every game, for every team is filled with ifs and what ifs.

The home game against Ottawa comes to mind. What if we don't recover Harris' fumble deep in our own end when the score was 0-0? What if we don't immediately follow that possession with a pick-6? What if instead of a punt single, Ottawa pinned us with a coffin corner punt?

Every if and what if comes with what actually happened. Last night:

What if Wolitarski catches that pass? What if Arbuckle doesn't hit the upright with a pass? What if Grant doesn't take two to the house? What if BLM played?

Well, Wolitarski didn't catch the pass, the upright made an outstanding defensive play, Grant made some history, and BLM wore a goofy headband on the sideline. That's how it goes.

People are also saying that we can't win a Grey Cup playing like that. Well, it's a good thing that we weren't playing the Grey Cup Game last night. There has also never been an undefeated CFL team, so even the best teams will lose, and even the best teams will sputter from time to time.

There is no single dominant team this season. I like our chances matching up against anyone else on any field on any day.

The biggest if that determined the outcome was the last pick of the game by Rose. If the Calgary receiver does what he?s paid to do and catches that ball that hits him in both hands then Calgary very likely kicks the game winning field goal. It wasn?t an amazing pick. It was an easy deflected ball that a receiver normally catches.

We were lucky.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TecnoGenius on August 13, 2019, 03:41:49 AM
The biggest if that determined the outcome was the last pick of the game by Rose. If the Calgary receiver does what he?s paid to do and catches that ball that hits him in both hands then Calgary very likely kicks the game winning field goal. It wasn?t an amazing pick. It was an easy deflected ball that a receiver normally catches.

We were lucky.

Likewise:

If the Winnipeg receiver (Woli) does what he's paid to do and catches that ball that is inches from both hands then Winnipeg very likely grinds out the clock and wins the game.  Calgary was lucky.

I've seen CGY receivers make the catch Woli should have made many a time over the years.  Not the best throw.  But catchable.

P.S. Pressure on Arbuckle made him make a poor read choice (NAT Sindani), and throw it high so it's tippable.  If we weren't getting pressure, Arbukle likely finds the WR he should be throwing to -- #4 -- and throws a better (non-high) ball.  That play was pressure and scheme (loose zone so we can get the tips) as much as luck.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: gordo on August 13, 2019, 03:50:52 AM
Likewise:

If the Winnipeg receiver (Woli) does what he's paid to do and catches that ball that is inches from both hands then Winnipeg very likely grinds out the clock and wins the game.  Calgary was lucky.

I've seen CGY receivers make the catch Woli should have made many a time over the years.  Not the best throw.  But catchable.

P.S. Pressure on Arbuckle made him make a poor read choice (NAT Sindani), and throw it high so it's tippable.  If we weren't getting pressure, Arbukle likely finds the WR he should be throwing to -- #4 -- and throws a better (non-high) ball.  That play was pressure and scheme (loose zone so we can get the tips) as much as luck.


Pressure and scheme had nothing to do with the Calgary receiver not squeezing a very catchable ball delivered to both hands. And at that point in the game it was the difference between winning and losing. We were lucky.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TecnoGenius on August 13, 2019, 06:42:23 AM
Pressure and scheme had nothing to do with the Calgary receiver not squeezing a very catchable ball delivered to both hands. And at that point in the game it was the difference between winning and losing. We were lucky.

I'll say it again: S I N D A N I.  He's been botching about 50% of his targets this year.  He's like Woli and JFG, but bad.  And specifically he's been botching ladder-climb balls.  Our D made Arbuckle checkdown to Sindani.  Our D made Arbuckle throw high.  Our D had defenders behind the ball to get any tips.

Of course we were lucky that it all came together.  But in this instance, we made our own luck.  It wasn't "1 in a million" luck, it was more like "1 in 10" luck if you put all of the above pieces in place.

You go ask Hall or Osh if that play result was sheer luck and they're surprised it happened, or whether they work every week in forcing results like that and it played out exactly as they had it down on paper.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TBURGESS on August 13, 2019, 01:54:19 PM
Lots of things went our way. Short week. Backup QB. RB hurt early. Goalpost knockdown. Tipped ball pick. 2 return TD's putting us in front where we play better. (Our end zone pick was a good DB play)

A couple of things went Calgary's way. Woli bobble and ???. (Matthews non-catch was a good DB play)

I hope our 'formula' isn't to wait for Calgary to make mistakes or us to get some breaks, cuz that ain't going to get it done at least half the time.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 13, 2019, 02:07:01 PM
Pressure and scheme had nothing to do with the Calgary receiver not squeezing a very catchable ball delivered to both hands. And at that point in the game it was the difference between winning and losing. We were lucky.

That was a lousy throw...high and behind Sindani and he had to contort back to just get his hands on it...hardly an easy catchable ball...and it was thrown like that due to Arbuckle seeing the pressure coming off the edge..so threw it sooner than he wanted to...and missed his spot..


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: GCn19 on August 13, 2019, 02:12:57 PM
That was a lousy throw...high and behind Sindani and he had to contort back to just get his hands on it...hardly an easy catchable ball...and it was thrown like that due to Arbuckle seeing the pressure coming off the edge..so threw it sooner than he wanted to...and missed his spot..

I agree. That would have been a tough catch. There was no luck involved. Our pressure and coverage made Arbuckle throw a poor ball.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 13, 2019, 02:14:46 PM
I agree. That would have been a tough catch. There was no luck involved. Our pressure and coverage made Arbuckle throw a poor ball.

several times that game he had to throw early..resulting in incompletions and some drops...some drops are not all on the receiver, especially when ball is on them before they expected it...or in a spot they weren't supposed to get it.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: GCn19 on August 13, 2019, 02:21:02 PM
several times that game he had to throw early..resulting in incompletions and some drops...some drops are not all on the receiver, especially when ball is on them before they expected it...or in a spot they weren't supposed to get it.


I'm not sure why people crap on the QB or receiver when they fail to connect under duress. Credit goes to the defence on that.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: rubanski on August 13, 2019, 02:59:43 PM
Or... Calgary was lucky.

They were behind all game.
Their run defence had more holes than Winnipeg streets in springtime.
Their ST coverage was horrifically bad.
WPG uncharacteristically settled for 3 fgs in the red zone.
The Woli end zone catch could easily have been called a TD.
Refs gave them at least 3 VERY favourable 2nd down spots.
WPG took above average # of penalties, and penalty yards.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: John T. on August 13, 2019, 03:13:37 PM
When people talk about the luck (or lack of luck) that both teams had last Thursday, I wish they'd stop talking about the Arbuckle pass that hit the goalpost.

From where I sat at the game (and others have agreed) there was no way in the world that pass was going to be caught in bounds. It was way, way, way overthrown, and the person with the best chance of catching it would have been sitting in about Row 3 of the endzone.

Goalpost or not, that wasn't a touchdown pass.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: 66 Chevelle on August 13, 2019, 03:18:47 PM
Well, then we were lucky it was going to be an over throw because the dude was all by himself and wide freaking open and no Bomber in sight...


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: blue_or_die on August 13, 2019, 03:20:32 PM
Next time there is a passing touchdown in the CFL, I'm going to say the QB was lucky the goalpost didn't get in the way.

Hey Arbuckle, how about next time you try *not* throwing it at the goalpost.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: 66 Chevelle on August 13, 2019, 03:28:04 PM
Next time there is a passing touchdown in the CFL, I'm going to say the QB was lucky the goalpost didn't get in the way.

Hey Arbuckle, how about next time you try *not* throwing it at the goalpost.

But that post gets right in the way... Plus, it's so big...  ;D


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Lincoln Locomotive on August 13, 2019, 03:31:39 PM
Esks beat the Als on the weekend and were they lucky to cause 3 IC passes when the Als were first down on the 11 YL with the clock ticking down?   There is an element of luck in almost every game....

I remember Jaromir Jagr comment about winning a gold medal in hockey at the Olympics in a one game elimination...."you have to be a good team, but you have to be lucky and stay away from injuries".

I really don't care how we win whether it's Medlock kicking FGs, or our D scoring, or our STs scoring TDs or our offence scoring on long balls.....it's all about racking up as many Ws in a season to obtain home field advantage in the western final.   If you can consistently compete for and or win first place in your conference you have a pretty good chance of getting to the dance.    Calgary has made a habit out of it and have Cups to show for it.  Montreal did it for a decade as well under their QB Calvillo. We haven't done that for a decade or more.   Our best shot at a Cup is winning the West and playing at home for the WF in our barn on a cold and frozen field with our noisy fans cheering them on.



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: rubanski on August 13, 2019, 03:33:10 PM
Well, then we were lucky it was going to be an over throw because the dude was all by himself and wide freaking open and no Bomber in sight...

^ this is nuts. Arbuckle spotted him late, overthrew him, and hit the goalpost.

I guess Calgary is also lucky the entire Bomber defense didn't have a simultaneous brain aneurysm on the game-clinching play that was intercepted. Think about it. It could have happened.



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: 66 Chevelle on August 13, 2019, 03:34:17 PM
I think people make their own luck thru hard work and preparation generally...


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: 66 Chevelle on August 13, 2019, 03:43:08 PM
^ this is nuts. Arbuckle spotted him late, overthrew him, and hit the goalpost.

I guess Calgary is also lucky the entire Bomber defense didn't have a simultaneous brain aneurysm on the game-clinching play that was intercepted. Think about it. It could have happened.



Well I guess we're lucky that this has been settled then... Other than he didn't over throw him AND hit the goal post... You're assuming that it was going to be an over throw but it did hit the goal post...

Let's hope that we get lucky this week too and none of our defensive players die from aneurysms... That would suck...


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 13, 2019, 03:52:34 PM
From where i sit as well it would have been an out of bounds catch..I also put a clip 4 screen shots of it into my 3D CAD program and tracked the ball trajectory up to high point and approx distance from launch...and to it's downward trajectory and it lands almost 5 yards out of bounds....and a catcheable height for a receiver to go up and get it would have had momentum taking him well outta bounds...I would upload it..but file size too big...so lets put the "luck" assumption to bed shall we

Also...from being at the game I was livid at about 6 instances where one of Matthews/Lucky and Woli were free down field and were not even looked at...and these were the ones I noticed after I made note of the first time i seen it in about the mid mid second quarter...so watched intently after...so perhaps Cgy was "lucky" not to be blown out???



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TBURGESS on August 13, 2019, 03:57:41 PM
How would you be able to track the balls trajectory or know when the ball is going to start coming down with any accuracy?

Maybe if there were some 'tennis ball software' that had been modified for a football then I'd believe your analysis, but a 3D CAD program ain't going to do it.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: 66 Chevelle on August 13, 2019, 03:59:01 PM
I'm lucky because I'm not going to click on this thread again...


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 13, 2019, 04:18:15 PM
How would you be able to track the balls trajectory or know when the ball is going to start coming down with any accuracy?

Maybe if there were some 'tennis ball software' that had been modified for a football then I'd believe your analysis, but a 3D CAD program ain't going to do it.

it's easy...and 3d programs can do a lot these days...i use them daily....and the trajectory with vectors.. terminal velocity..gravity make it simple...you track an objects distance from launch point and elevation...distance to high point then physics and the math will dictate where the landing point is...unless there was a major shift in gravity at that exact moment or the spin and tilt of the earth moved ( which I doubt happened) you can determine exactly where the ball would land.

So how much experience do you have in engineering design software, physics, and modelling to support your "beliefs"...obviously not a lot and are very much in the dark with software capabilities these days...perhaps watch some discovery channel content or some youtube vid's..you may be amazed

Just like when a cop investigates an accident scene and can determine speed..direction...impact of vehicles etc..etc after the fact of an automobile accident by using even simpler survey equipment such as a total station..archaic compared to what I used....it can be done..we have the technology....









Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TBURGESS on August 13, 2019, 04:30:06 PM
it's easy...and 3d programs can do a lot these days...i use them daily....and the trajectory with vectors.. terminal velocity..gravity make it simple...you track an objects distance from launch point and elevation...distance to high point then physics and the math will dictate where the landing point is...unless there was a major shift in gravity at that exact moment or the spin and tilt of the earth moved ( which I doubt happened) you can determine exactly where the ball would land.

So how much experience do you have in engineering design software, physics, and modelling to support your "beliefs"...obviously not a lot and are very much in the dark with software capabilities these days...perhaps watch some discovery channel content or some youtube vid's..you may be amazed

Just like when a cop investigates an accident scene and can determine speed..direction...impact of vehicles etc..etc after the fact of an automobile accident by using even simpler survey equipment such as a total station..archaic compared to what I used....it can be done..we have the technology....
I'm no engineer or 3D software expert, which is why I've stayed away from the whole 'I know it was an over-throw' argument until now. I didn't realize it could be accurately analyzed with 3D software. I thought it took more than that.

I didn't realize you were an expert. I understand the basic physics but not the math involved. How do you determine velocity?



Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: GCn19 on August 13, 2019, 04:32:33 PM
IMO, the only team that was lucky was Calgary. We left a ton of attainable points off the board and should have won by 2 scores easily. For the life of me, I don't understand why people think that two ST TDs is luck. It's not. There is a ton of preparation done by our ST groups to enable plays like this. Does it help to have a speed demon, capable returner...sure...but that's not luck either.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: GCn19 on August 13, 2019, 04:35:35 PM
I'm no engineer or 3D software expert, which is why I've stayed away from the whole 'I know it was an over-throw' argument until now. I didn't realize it could be accurately analyzed with 3D software. I thought it took more than that.

I didn't realize you were an expert. I understand the basic physics but not the math involved. How do you determine velocity?



How does anything measure velocity? Distance over time.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TBURGESS on August 13, 2019, 04:37:28 PM
How does anything measure velocity? Distance over time.
That assumes a consistent velocity. Wouldn't a football slow down the farther it gets from it's release point?


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: blue_or_die on August 13, 2019, 04:54:12 PM
That assumes a consistent velocity. Wouldn't a football slow down the farther it gets from it's release point?

Yes, but you know the tangent of the trajectory (angle), value of drag acting downward on the ball (gravity), and value of drag acting against the vector of the ball (air resistance) so you can determine a rate of velocity decrease and use that to determine a final velocity at the end of the ball's trajectory. This can all be used to solve the final variable, the distance traveled (i.e. over or under thrown).

All completely useless though, since our D pressured Arbuckle to throw a bad pass that hit the upright. No simulation needed to get that result.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TBURGESS on August 13, 2019, 05:16:36 PM
Yes, but you know the tangent of the trajectory (angle), value of drag acting downward on the ball (gravity), and value of drag acting against the vector of the ball (air resistance) so you can determine a rate of velocity decrease and use that to determine a final velocity at the end of the ball's trajectory. This can all be used to solve the final variable, the distance traveled (i.e. over or under thrown).

All completely useless though, since our D pressured Arbuckle to throw a bad pass that hit the upright. No simulation needed to get that result.
My high school physics class was a long, long time ago.

Just trying to understand...

Is the drag value of a football a known number?

How much effect does changing the air resistance make. IE: How much effect did the breeze/wind have?

Seems like you should be able to calculate the height off the field when the ball goes out of bounds instead of where it lands. Would a ball that lands 5 yards out still be catchable? IE: Based on the calculated trajectory would it be higher or lower than 7 feet? Note that the receiver was far enough behind their DB that he could have stopped and jumped. In fact he would have had to if he didn't want to go out.

Can you get an accurate trajectory with only 4 data points? Seems to me the minimum you'd need is a couple before the top of the arc, the top of the arc and a couple afterwards, but like I said... I don't know the math.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 13, 2019, 05:55:46 PM
well some have explained it fairly well here...saves me the lesson plan lol

also we know what terminal velocity on earth is and rate something will fall....

Something on earth that is released in an arc will hit an apex point, and will travel back down to start elevation in basically the same path not taking into acount wind resistance...or assistance...that ball as well was wind assisted so may have traveled further

Yeah you can calculate the elevation on any point along the trajectory and as mentioned the receiver would have had to make a jumping catch to snag ball in bounds but in no variation of catch style would have been in bounds


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: John T. on August 13, 2019, 06:00:35 PM
I'm finding it hilarious, but in a fantastic way, that the posters here know more about physics than they do about football.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: rubanski on August 13, 2019, 06:33:46 PM
I'm finding it hilarious, but in a fantastic way, that the posters here know more about physics than they do about football.

Why? We all know more about whatever we do for a living than we do about football.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: GCn19 on August 13, 2019, 06:37:16 PM
I'm finding it hilarious, but in a fantastic way, that the posters here know more about physics than they do about football.

Nope. Not true. My understanding of physics is pretty basic.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 13, 2019, 06:52:45 PM
I'm finding it hilarious, but in a fantastic way, that the posters here know more about physics than they do about football.
I know both  :) and credit football for enabling me to be that way hahaha


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 13, 2019, 06:59:45 PM
well some have explained it fairly well here...saves me the lesson plan lol

also we know what terminal velocity on earth is and rate something will fall....

Something on earth that is released in an arc will hit an apex point, and will travel back down to start elevation in basically the same path not taking into acount wind resistance...or assistance...that ball as well was wind assisted so may have traveled further

Yeah you can calculate the elevation on any point along the trajectory and as mentioned the receiver would have had to make a jumping catch to snag ball in bounds but in no variation of catch style would have been in bounds

I'm not sure why I'm getting involved in his conversation but was the ball still ascending when it hit the upright or was it already on it's way down?


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: booch on August 13, 2019, 07:03:55 PM
I'm not sure why I'm getting involved in his conversation but was the ball still ascending when it hit the upright or was it already on it's way down?

Thanks for attending class hahaha...It looked like it as just at or about to hit it's apex when it clanged off the post


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TecnoGenius on August 14, 2019, 04:05:04 AM
Let's hope that we get lucky this week too and none of our defensive players die from aneurysms... That would suck...

Don't jinx it!  You jinxed it!  If there are on-field aneurysms I'm holding you two personally responsible!

I'm lucky because I'm not going to click on this thread again...

Yes you will!  You know it!  See!  You're reading this now, aren't you!

Is the drag value of a football a known number?

You could just take another pass from the game around the same time in the same direction, from throw till striking something, and calculate the drag/wind value to apply to the pass in question.

Something on earth that is released in an arc will hit an apex point, and will travel back down to start elevation in basically the same path not taking into acount wind resistance...or assistance...that ball as well was wind assisted so may have traveled further

That ball was going against the wind.  They were throwing N (left on TV) and the wind was NW that night.  That's why Medlock had a good chance on that 55 yarder to the S.

So, to be fair, the ball, which my initial impression/instinct of was "overthrow", could have dropped a bit sooner because of the wind.  By that time in the game, though, the wind was dying down compared to 1st Q.

I'm not sure why I'm getting involved in his conversation but was the ball still ascending when it hit the upright or was it already on it's way down?

It had just started turning down.  I checked that out in freeze frame a few times.  Maybe 1-2 yards from its apex.

And, as others (and I have said), the WR was going too fast and too close to OOB.  Ball seemed thrown late.  I don't think there's any way he stops and highpoints it.  As I said before, live I didn't know it hit the post and was looking for the ball in the stands, as that's where I thought it'd end up.  That post cheated some lucky drunk fan out of a souvenir ball!!


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: gordo on August 14, 2019, 05:58:23 AM
Yes, but you know the tangent of the trajectory (angle), value of drag acting downward on the ball (gravity), and value of drag acting against the vector of the ball (air resistance) so you can determine a rate of velocity decrease and use that to determine a final velocity at the end of the ball's trajectory. This can all be used to solve the final variable, the distance traveled (i.e. over or under thrown).

All completely useless though, since our D pressured Arbuckle to throw a bad pass that hit the upright. No simulation needed to get that result.

Mr Burgess made a very good point. The problem is you do not know the initial velocity of the ball. Makes a huge difference on your analysis and outcome. In my opinion your physics hit the upright.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TecnoGenius on August 14, 2019, 10:22:53 AM
Mr Burgess made a very good point. The problem is you do not know the initial velocity of the ball. Makes a huge difference on your analysis and outcome. In my opinion your physics hit the upright.

Yes you do!  You can go frame by frame.  Each frame on NTSC is 1/30 of a second.  Just measure how much the ball travels over X frames (whatever X is most convenient).  Adjust for the vertical speed too if you want to be pedantic.  All measurable because you have the hash marks and you know the height of an official CFL goalpost.

But forget all that -- unless someone wants to do all the calculations (not me!)... everyone just eyeball it and admit what your first reaction to that throw was (especially if you were at IGF in a decent location to see the trajectory).  It feels overthrown.  If it was going to be caught, it would have to be a remarkable catch.

And wasn't it  S I N D A N I  back there?  If so... seriously doubt he makes that circus catch.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: John T. on August 14, 2019, 12:51:10 PM
Nope. Not true. My understanding of physics is pretty basic.

And yet, our pretty basic understanding of physics is still higher than our pretty poor understanding of football...all of us...let's be honest.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: GCn19 on August 14, 2019, 12:57:33 PM
And yet, our pretty basic understanding of physics is still higher than our pretty poor understanding of football...all of us...let's be honest.

I'll be honest. Nope.


Title: Re: Win is a win, but we were lucky tonight.
Post by: TecnoGenius on August 16, 2019, 06:45:55 AM
Sorry to bring up this goal post pass again... but 1Q10:15 in the BC@WPG game tonight... Nichols throws a very similar ball to Demski for the TD.  This pass is like 5 yards lower when it crosses the GP, and Demski, at the back of the EZ with speed, still has to jump for it, with speed, and toe drag to get the TD.  Further hinting the CGY GP hit ball would have been overthrown.

To be fair, the Nichols toss is from the 12 (not the 25 or whatever), and it hits its apex about 2 yards into the EZ (not about 2y before the EZ posts), and the initial velocity wouldn't be nearly as much.  But when I saw it on TSN I thought it was similar enough to compare.  And it was the exact same EZ and uprights both times!

P.S. Great toe drag by Demski: that was a really gorgeous play by both MN and ND.