Blue Bombers Forum

The Extra Point => Blue Bomber & CFL Discussion Forum => Topic started by: The Zipp on June 17, 2019, 04:39:28 PM



Title: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: The Zipp on June 17, 2019, 04:39:28 PM
Simoni Lawrence suspended 2 games for the hit on Collaros...

Will he appeal?


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: kkc60 on June 17, 2019, 04:42:24 PM
He probably will and his suspension won't be served until next year or SOME BS


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on June 17, 2019, 04:44:10 PM
Hamilton plays Saturday and the suspension is effective immediately. It's an interesting question considering the possible career or season ending injury to Collaros.

Both the CFL and CFL.PA are trying to address player safety issues. PR defending the suspension would be bad regardless of the outcome.

I hope the appeal was done on the weekend and if not that one is not contemplated.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Lincoln Locomotive on June 17, 2019, 05:00:37 PM
That appeal process is a bit of a joke.....2 games is two games and it should be served immediately.  Collaros is on the 6 game IR however I'd be surprised if this is the final straw for him!   Well he got 3 plays in so far this season so Lawrence should do his time now!


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Donny C on June 17, 2019, 05:24:48 PM
I think the league positions itself well by automatically handing out a suspension.

It can be appealed through the CFLPA.

However, by automatically suspending Lawerence the CFL can look the CFLPA in the eye and say, "Actually yes, yes we do care about player saftey. It's you guys that keep having issues with the suspensions."


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Darwinismyhomeboy on June 17, 2019, 05:46:55 PM
Hamilton's next two games are Tor and Mtl.  I wouldn't appeal.  Let him sit two, should be, easy win games at the start of the year.  Don't drag on the appeal then possibly lose him later in the season for harder opponents.  Plus it'll make Ham look good that they don't condone dangerous hits on QBs


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on June 17, 2019, 05:56:32 PM
I think the league positions itself well by automatically handing out a suspension.

It can be appealed through the CFLPA.

However, by automatically suspending Lawerence the CFL can look the CFLPA in the eye and say, "Actually yes, yes we do care about player saftey. It's you guys that keep having issues with the suspensions."

It's also a huge liability thing. I'm not painting the owners as a bunch of greedy buggers, but they haven't gotten where they are by not effectively weighing the cost of decisions made.

Former players can't sue the league in 5 years saying they weren't doing enough.


My 2 cents... 2 games is a pretty huge number for a non-repeat offender & probably the right one.  That is a huuuuge chunk of his salary gone.

Imagine giving up 6 weeks of pay this year for a bad decision at work!


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: the paw on June 17, 2019, 07:20:56 PM
I think 2 games is proportionate.  In theory, this is about being severe enough to be a deterrent (which i think it is) and not about retribution for the outcome of the hit on Collaros. 

The CFLPA can still represent Simoni without undercutting their message on player safety.  Their duty is to see that Simoni gets the benefit of proper process within the CBA, and that all the appropriate factors are considered.  By fulfilling that duty, they aren't being "soft" on player safety, they are just making sure that due process occurs. 


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: ModAdmin on June 17, 2019, 10:00:05 PM
Frankly, it is a bit hypocritical to ask for more medical benefits while at the same time attempting to get a player off a suspension for demolishing a quarterback with a head shot.  I hope some reason and sensibility kicks in on this one.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: the paw on June 17, 2019, 10:04:23 PM
Frankly, it is a bit hypocritical to ask for more medical benefits while at the same time attempting to get a player off a suspension for demolishing a quarterback with a head shot.  I hope some reason and sensibility kicks in on this one.

The role of the CFLPA isn?t to ?get someone off?, it is to ensure that he gets due process, that the league follows the rules for giving discipline, and that the punishment isn?t arbitrary.

There is nothing hypocritical in representing a player, everyone gets a defence.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue girl on June 17, 2019, 11:43:09 PM
I hope that he just serves the suspension. He'll lose 2 games pay but if Collaros never plays again he loses more.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: ModAdmin on June 18, 2019, 12:02:32 AM
The role of the CFLPA isn?t to ?get someone off?, it is to ensure that he gets due process, that the league follows the rules for giving discipline, and that the punishment isn?t arbitrary.

There is nothing hypocritical in representing a player, everyone gets a defence.

Is the punishment fitting (2 games)?  If so, the CFLPA should then urge the player to accept it.  My gut feeling though is the union might attempt to mitigate or challenge the punishment because they are representing the player.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: lenny on June 18, 2019, 12:11:12 AM
Two games is fair. But it's time to ramp up the punishment for these hits. He should also have been booted out of the game.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: pjrocksmb on June 18, 2019, 12:30:01 AM
Yes boot out of the game and if you do on a nasty play like that, take the pay cheque as well if you are a repeat offender.

2 games is fitting.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 18, 2019, 01:40:39 AM
Is the punishment fitting (2 games)?  If so, the CFLPA should then urge the player to accept it.  My gut feeling though is the union might attempt to mitigate or challenge the punishment because they are representing the player.

What are they doing for Collaros?


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Big Daddy on June 18, 2019, 02:46:58 AM
What are they doing for Collaros?

That is a very good question


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: the paw on June 18, 2019, 03:08:20 AM
Is the punishment fitting (2 games)?  If so, the CFLPA should then urge the player to accept it.  My gut feeling though is the union might attempt to mitigate or challenge the punishment because they are representing the player.

I think it?s about right.  Kyries Hebert got a half game fine, full game fine, and then a one game suspension before they hung a deuce on him. (All headshots).

The fact that Collaros was sliding makes going right to two games appropriate, even for a first offender.  But 2 games is no joke, it?s 11% of his pay.  And the punishment is calibrated to the infraction, not the damage done.  In other words, he should still have got 2 games even if  Collaros had been able to return in the second half


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: dd on June 18, 2019, 04:41:50 AM
2 games is the minimum he should have got. he should have gotten a 25 yard rough play and a game disqualification in the game he was playing then that would have been appropriate penalty to pay for such a stupid hit


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TecnoGenius on June 18, 2019, 07:19:50 AM
2 games is OK, if he actually serves it.  I thought 3 was more appropriate.  But 2 does send a message and is more than the slap on the wrist I thought they'd dole out.

But I'm not sure this impacts SL financially, other than the GD cheque?  Doesn't he still get his normal salary cheque?  He isn't a ELC, he's a highly paid vet.  It does hurt HAM though as he is a very good player.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on June 18, 2019, 01:02:39 PM
2 games is OK, if he actually serves it.  I thought 3 was more appropriate.  But 2 does send a message and is more than the slap on the wrist I thought they'd dole out.

But I'm not sure this impacts SL financially, other than the GD cheque?  Doesn't he still get his normal salary cheque?  He isn't a ELC, he's a highly paid vet.  It does hurt HAM though as he is a very good player.


A game day check is his normal salary. Getting suspended should mean he isn't getting paid anything for either game. If that isn't true, where is the value in suspending him? Where is the downside for him aside from playing?


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue_or_die on June 18, 2019, 01:39:59 PM
2 games is OK, if he actually serves it.  I thought 3 was more appropriate.  But 2 does send a message and is more than the slap on the wrist I thought they'd dole out.

But I'm not sure this impacts SL financially, other than the GD cheque?  Doesn't he still get his normal salary cheque?  He isn't a ELC, he's a highly paid vet.  It does hurt HAM though as he is a very good player.


What's the difference between a game day cheque and a "normal cheque". I was not aware players got their salary through anything but games played/rostered.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: the paw on June 18, 2019, 02:09:38 PM
What's the difference between a game day cheque and a "normal cheque". I was not aware players got their salary through anything but games played/rostered.

there isn't, Techno is confused.

When media reports on player compensation, they usually report a figure on the annual global value of the contract.  That annual value is broken down into the following payment methods:  signing bonuses, roster/report bonuses, incentives/games played bonuses, housing allowance, and game day cheques.  There is no "normal salary" cheque. 


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 18, 2019, 02:10:28 PM
2 games is the minimum he should have got. he should have gotten a 25 year rough play and a game disqualification in the game he was playing then that would have been appropriate penalty to pay for such a stupid hit

25 years seems a little harsh ;)


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Colton on June 18, 2019, 05:19:12 PM
2 games is the minimum he should have got. he should have gotten a 25 year rough play and a game disqualification in the game he was playing then that would have been appropriate penalty to pay for such a stupid hit

My thoughts exactly


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on June 18, 2019, 08:26:57 PM
No news that SL is going to appeal. I hope that turns out to be the case and the issue is a done deal.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: The Zipp on June 18, 2019, 11:45:43 PM
From Farhan:

Hearing that the Simoni Lawrence suspension is likely headed towards an appeal/grievance by the #CFLPA. @CFLonTSN #TiCats #Riders

What a joke - Collaros should get a refund on his union dues


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Tiger on June 19, 2019, 12:29:37 AM
I have always thought that on cheap hits and plays, players should be suspended as long as the player injured could not play.  That seems fair and would make people think.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TecnoGenius on June 19, 2019, 05:58:28 AM
there isn't, Techno is confused.

When media reports on player compensation, they usually report a figure on the annual global value of the contract.  That annual value is broken down into the following payment methods:  signing bonuses, roster/report bonuses, incentives/games played bonuses, housing allowance, and game day cheques.  There is no "normal salary" cheque. 

Not confused, ignorant.  I have no idea how these things are structured, but thanks to the smart people here, now I'm getting the picture.

One last question based on all the answers I got: let's say a player is signed to a contract for $180k base.  So his GDC is $18k a game?  OK.  What if they put that player on PR?  (I know, you never PR a $180k player, but just pretend.)  Now the player isn't rostered for games, and thus doesn't get a GDC, right?  So does he get a "normal" "non-GD" cheque for the $18k he's contractually owed that week?

What about guys who bounce between PR and AR all year like Washington, Thompkins, Nelson in '18?  Or were they all always on AR?

But, bottom line, Simoni is going to be $30k+ poorer after this fiasco, right?  I'm fine with that.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: the paw on June 19, 2019, 11:01:49 AM
Not confused, ignorant.  I have no idea how these things are structured, but thanks to the smart people here, now I'm getting the picture.

One last question based on all the answers I got: let's say a player is signed to a contract for $180k base.  So his GDC is $18k a game?  OK.  What if they put that player on PR?  (I know, you never PR a $180k player, but just pretend.)  Now the player isn't rostered for games, and thus doesn't get a GDC, right?  So does he get a "normal" "non-GD" cheque for the $18k he's contractually owed that week?

What about guys who bounce between PR and AR all year like Washington, Thompkins, Nelson in '18?  Or were they all always on AR?

But, bottom line, Simoni is going to be $30k+ poorer after this fiasco, right?  I'm fine with that.


Assume a player signs a contract with no bonuses, just $180k for 18 games.  Every week, his game cheque is $10k.  If he goes down to the practice roster in week 5, he doesn?t get $10k that week, he could get as low as $750.  If the team wants to activate him for week 6, he has to sign a new contract, which may or may not be the same value as his original contract.

Bottom line is that being on practice roster impairs your earning potential severely, and it sucks for players.  That?s why you see rookies and prospects there, veterans would generally rather move on to another team if they feel they have established themselves. Which is why teams bury guys on the IR, so they can keep paying them full salary.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on June 19, 2019, 01:12:12 PM
From Farhan:

Hearing that the Simoni Lawrence suspension is likely headed towards an appeal/grievance by the #CFLPA. @CFLonTSN #TiCats #Riders

What a joke - Collaros should get a refund on his union dues

They need an arbitrator on call with a retainer so that the appeal is done within a couple of days of the game as the suspension is levied.

Since that doesn't seem to be in the cards, this better not take weeks and weeks to come to a conclusion. It's horrible PR for the CFL.

TiCats should just release him to solve this crap.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 19, 2019, 01:22:58 PM
If Ham releases him, someone signs him immediately. 

Hamilton should tell him to sit down and shut up.  Take the penalty when they need him less, next two games are easy...

He admitted he did it, but "is sorry".  I'd like to see the arbiter up the suspension to 4 games, I think Lawrence got only 2 because "he was sorry".  If he appeals, that proves he is not sorry...





Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Waffler on June 19, 2019, 01:45:48 PM
I have always thought that on cheap hits and plays, players should be suspended as long as the player injured could not play.  That seems fair and would make people think.

Good in theory but not practical. Penalties need to be just severe enough to have deterrence. The league is hamstrung by the players assoc and appeals, the end result being guys taking "free" shots.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 3rdand1.5 on June 19, 2019, 02:30:12 PM
Like I said before. It's not Ambrosie or the league, it's the CFLPA, they will fight it and the precedent was set by what they did for Rose. A blatant disregard for another's safety  has been determined to be 1/2 a game cheque. Ambrosie could have slapped a 10 game suspension it would not have mattered. The CFLPA has the league by the yitchies and Simoni is entitled to his due process, whether right or wrong 


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Lincoln Locomotive on June 19, 2019, 05:18:27 PM
What an *****' farce!!   I'm all for player rights and the like but when it comes to suspensions for players who actually injure another player via illegal hits the suspension rule should stick!   You can't have it both ways!!??


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 1chad on June 19, 2019, 05:41:32 PM
There is a major league, not the NHL, that in the event of an appeal they have arbitrators lined up and it is done and dusted within the week.  Might be the NFL, not sure.  I understand we as the CFL cannot afford to have a multitude of arbitrators on retainer, but can they not have a good sized list, agreed upon prior to the season with the CFLPA, and run down the list until they get one who has the time?  Suspention, appeal, verdict prior to the weekend's games.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Darwinismyhomeboy on June 19, 2019, 05:42:21 PM
Does Lawrence have to request the CFLPA do that or can they appeal on his behalf?  Just wondering if this is proof he isn't sorry at all.  Or is this the Union being a union.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: booch on June 19, 2019, 05:50:12 PM
you have to approach the CFLPA to initiate...and they will support you/get proceedings moving...if you don't request, then they don't move on it for you


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue girl on June 19, 2019, 06:47:28 PM
This is where the CFLPA loses credibility with me. You can't ask for long term health care for players and then appeal a suspension for a player who has possibly ended a players career.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Donny C on June 19, 2019, 06:50:18 PM
This is where the CFLPA loses credibility with me. You can't ask for long term health care for players and then appeal a suspension for a player who has possibly ended a players career.

I fully agree!


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 19, 2019, 06:52:01 PM
This is where the CFLPA loses credibility with me. You can't ask for long term health care for players and then appeal a suspension for a player who has possibly ended a players career.

Yup... I really do hope whoever hears the appeal does take into account that he's sorry / not sorry, and levels an additional game or two onto the suspension.  Nip this whole "appeal" crap in the bud...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue newt on June 19, 2019, 07:46:59 PM
This is where the CFLPA loses credibility with me. You can't ask for long term health care for players and then appeal a suspension for a player who has possibly ended a players career.

Agree completely.  2 games is fair.  To appeal that says that one player's pocketbook is more important than another player's head.  CFLPA look like arses here.  They should be fighting for a safer game for all.  If the call was egregious or the penalty unreasonable, an appeal could be more understandable.  But it is neither.  Let the suspension stand.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: The Zipp on June 20, 2019, 12:12:19 AM
CFL statement - pretty strong and to the point:

TORONTO ? The Canadian Football League issued a statement Wednesday night after learning that the CFLPA has decided to contest the league?s attempt to suspend Hamilton Tiger-Cats linebacker Simoni Lawrence.

Lawrence was handed a two-game suspension the veteran Tiger-Cat made direct contact to the head of Saskatchewan Roughriders quarterback Zach Collaros in the Ticats? season opener on Thursday at Tim Hortons Field.


The statement read as follows:

The CFL is deeply disappointed that the CFLPA has decided to contest the league?s attempt to punish and deter a dangerous play. It is highly regrettable that the association has informed us it has decided to grieve the two-game suspension the CFL has imposed on Hamilton Tiger-Cat Simoni Lawrence after he struck Saskatchewan Roughrider quarterback Zach Collaros in the head after Collaros had given himself up by sliding feet first.

We should embrace a shared responsibility to do all we can to punish and deter any play that crosses the line. It is disappointing that the union has decided to use a legal process, at considerable time and expense, to defend an offending player instead of standing up for the player hurt on the play. Let?s use that time and money to instead work together on new ways to promote and protect all players? safety.

Randy Ambrosie
Commissioner
CFL

As for Collaros, he left Thursday?s game following the hit and did not return.  On Sunday he was placed on the six-game injured list by the Riders


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue newt on June 20, 2019, 01:18:48 AM
CFL statement - pretty strong and to the point:

TORONTO ? The Canadian Football League issued a statement Wednesday night after learning that the CFLPA has decided to contest the league?s attempt to suspend Hamilton Tiger-Cats linebacker Simoni Lawrence.

Lawrence was handed a two-game suspension the veteran Tiger-Cat made direct contact to the head of Saskatchewan Roughriders quarterback Zach Collaros in the Ticats? season opener on Thursday at Tim Hortons Field.


The statement read as follows:

The CFL is deeply disappointed that the CFLPA has decided to contest the league?s attempt to punish and deter a dangerous play. It is highly regrettable that the association has informed us it has decided to grieve the two-game suspension the CFL has imposed on Hamilton Tiger-Cat Simoni Lawrence after he struck Saskatchewan Roughrider quarterback Zach Collaros in the head after Collaros had given himself up by sliding feet first.

We should embrace a shared responsibility to do all we can to punish and deter any play that crosses the line. It is disappointing that the union has decided to use a legal process, at considerable time and expense, to defend an offending player instead of standing up for the player hurt on the play. Let?s use that time and money to instead work together on new ways to promote and protect all players? safety.

Randy Ambrosie
Commissioner
CFL

As for Collaros, he left Thursday?s game following the hit and did not return.  On Sunday he was placed on the six-game injured list by the Riders

Clearly, Simoni was not as sorry about the hit as he wanted people to believe, and the CFLPA doesn't really care about the health of its members.  As a football fan, this is frustrating and upsetting.  The CFL is in the right about this, and I'm glad Ambrosie issued that statement.  Who would have thought the CFL would be more concerned with their health than their union?  But $ talks, right?


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: The Zipp on June 20, 2019, 01:23:16 AM
From Naylor:

The @CFLPA had a choice whether to represent @Simoni_Lawrence in his appeal. But highly unusual to criticize a union for using a process it collectively bargained. League is suggesting an appeal means the union is abandoning it?s responsibility to make the game safer. #CFL #CFLPA


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: The Zipp on June 20, 2019, 01:27:14 AM
Clearly, Simoni was not as sorry about the hit as he wanted people to believe, and the CFLPA doesn't really care about the health of its members.  As a football fan, this is frustrating and upsetting.  The CFL is in the right about this, and I'm glad Ambrosie issued that statement.  Who would have thought the CFL would be more concerned with their health than their union?  But $ talks, right?


Actually Simoni is just sticking to his story - he claims it was accidental, no maliscous intent therefore 2 games is too much...CFLPA is defending their member and claiming that while the result was terrible it was not worthy of this punishment.   The court of public opinion (including other players and members) is clearly against Simoni so I may have thought the CFLPA would just let this one go but I guess not.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue newt on June 20, 2019, 02:07:10 AM
Actually Simoni is just sticking to his story - he claims it was accidental, no maliscous intent therefore 2 games is too much...CFLPA is defending their member and claiming that while the result was terrible it was not worthy of this punishment.   The court of public opinion (including other players and members) is clearly against Simoni so I may have thought the CFLPA would just let this one go but I guess not.

I understand that.  But, even if we pretend it wasn't an intentional head hunt, it doesn't release Simoni from responsibility.  Mistakes have consequences.  There's such a thing as negligence.  His hit is the textbook definition of a dangerous hit.  He even hit Powell the same way later in the same game (it just didn't get flagged).  It's exactly what the CFLPA should be lobbying *against*, not for.  I stand with the league on this one. 


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: dd on June 20, 2019, 02:31:25 AM
This whole situation is beyond ridiculous. The CFLPA clearly doesn?t care about players asafety as they shouldn?t have appealed it. I m with ambrosie on this, there has to be a shared responsibility on player s safety and the CFLPA doesn?t care about safety only their right to appeal. They have lost their way. Brutal. If this happened in the NHL and there was a clear intentional headshot, no way the nhlpa appeals it, they get it that this type of hit needs to be eliminated from the game. The CFLPA doesn?t get it, they re lost and that?s sad as it?s only the players that will suffer


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: ModAdmin on June 20, 2019, 03:24:40 AM
Intentional or not, it was an illegal, was penalized and punishment assessed.  While I get it that the CFLPA represents the players but it does seem somewhat hypocritical for the CFLPA to say they are concerned about safety and follow up medical care where needed for players and yet want to contest this.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TecnoGenius on June 20, 2019, 05:05:29 AM
Wow, a rare day that basically everyone on the forum is in complete agreement.  And a rarer day still where the WPG forum is in agreement with the SSK forum!!  How Simoni and CFLPA can pick this hill to die on is beyond me.  Are they saying that there should never be any real punishment, that everything should be a slap on the wrist like Rose got?

I bet every team forum (except possibly HAM) is on the same page here.  So I wonder what HAM forums have to say?  If they aren't defending him either, then it would seem to be unanimous.  I don't know about you, but I'd have a hard time defending a Bomber who concussed a QB while sliding.

I think appealing only hurts Simoni.  And if he wins, it'll hurt him more.  People will really hate him.  If he said a real "sorry" and accepted the punishment, amost everyone would get over it, and it would be business as usual (except for ZC).  Now what team will want to hire SL if he ever leaves HAM?


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TBURGESS on June 20, 2019, 12:54:26 PM
Ambrosie is rightly painting the CFLPA as the bad guy who doesn't care about player safety. Most folks agree with him, but the CFLPA is just being consistent. They almost always go to bat for players who are losing game cheques. They went to bat for Hebert for the first 2 of his 3 head shots before they declined. They are going to bat for Lawrence on his first.

The appeal doesn't hurt anyone or relieve SL from responsibility. It's just part of the process.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: the paw on June 20, 2019, 02:12:45 PM


The appeal doesn't hurt anyone or relieve SL from responsibility. It's just part of the process.

Agree with bolded part 100%.  Actually, I feel this latest statement from Ambrosie is both petulant and disingenuous. 

He knows full well that the grievance and arbitration process are part of the collective agreement, and that the union has a duty to represent all its members.  Ensuring Simoni gets due process is not endorsing his actions.

If the 2 game suspension is reasonable and correct within the context of both written rules and precedent, then it will be upheld by the arbitrator.  If the arbitrator reduces it, then maybe the CFL has to do some work to do in defining supplementary discipline process. 


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 20, 2019, 02:28:11 PM
An appeal should carry the potential of both a reduction and an increase in penalty.  Otherwise, every ruling will be appealed.  You have to give the arbiter the ability to increase teh penalty if he feels the offending party was not sanctioned appropriately, taking into account post penalty actions. 

Before the assesment of the penalty, Lawrence was apologetic and contrite.  Post assessment, he was not.  The fact that he does not think 2 game suspension is warranted for potentially ending a career though his actions (intentional or not), this fact needs to be part of the arbiter's decision.

The fact of the issue is that Lawrence hit a QB that had clearly surrendered himself.  He had ample time to pull up, and should not have initiated any contact with a helpless QB.  No excuses about "heat of the moment" or "continuing the play" can stand here.  QB surrendered with a slide, and that ends the play.  Lawrence continued and injured Collaros.

There were people calling for a 6 game suspension, other that wanted him suspended until Collaros returns.  Either of those outcomes, while harsh, would signal the league's desire to end this practice.

I think that is the appeal goes though, the arbiter should increase the penalty to a 4 game suspension, and thus end anyone risking an appeal without an actual grievance.   

If there is a reduction of the suspension, then the league and CFLPA have lost all ability to say player safety is any concern of either group.

Now, should a backup Olineman be activated from the PR next SSK/HAM game, and should he accidentally fall on Simoni's knee after a "Jumbo Team" play... well...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on June 20, 2019, 02:39:58 PM
Anyone here who claims that if he/she was in SL shoes - that you wouldn't appeal - is liar or a fool.

He's losing 11% of his income this year. It's a precedent setting long suspension for a 1st time offender on an issue like this.

The CFLPA collectively bargained for the right to appeal any decision by the league that causes it's members to lose salary. The CFLPA has an obligation to honour SL's right to appeal this decision.

I thought it was a little low brow for Ambosie to publicly slam the CFLPA for doing their job. If they refused to honour SL's request/right to appeal they'd be putting themselves at jeopardy for legal action from SL towards them.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Jesse on June 20, 2019, 02:50:49 PM
Anyone here who claims that if he/she was in SL shoes - that you wouldn't appeal - is liar or a fool.

He's losing 11% of his income this year. It's a precedent setting long suspension for a 1st time offender on an issue like this.

The CFLPA collectively bargained for the right to appeal any decision by the league that causes it's members to lose salary. The CFLPA has an obligation to honour SL's right to appeal this decision.

I thought it was a little low brow for Ambosie to publicly slam the CFLPA for doing their job. If they refused to honour SL's request/right to appeal they'd be putting themselves at jeopardy for legal action from SL towards them.

The CFL is attempting to set a precedent with SL. And that's likely a good thing. They need to set limits and follow through if we want the players at adapt.

But you can't set a new precedent without push back. SL has never been suspended before and they're jumping to two games. That, I think, is the point of the appeal.

Hopefully, the suspension is able to be maintained, and SL wont get into too many games before this is resolved.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 20, 2019, 02:52:57 PM
Anyone here who claims that if he/she was in SL shoes - that you wouldn't appeal - is liar or a fool.

He's losing 11% of his income this year. It's a precedent setting long suspension for a 1st time offender on an issue like this.

The CFLPA collectively bargained for the right to appeal any decision by the league that causes it's members to lose salary. The CFLPA has an obligation to honour SL's right to appeal this decision.

I thought it was a little low brow for Ambosie to publicly slam the CFLPA for doing their job. If they refused to honour SL's request/right to appeal they'd be putting themselves at jeopardy for legal action from SL towards them.

Of course he is appealing and we all would with the present outcome of appeals (almost certainly it gets reduced just for asking).  

Now, if they included the possibility that the suspension would be increased on appeal, does that change whether you would risk an appeal?  

They looked at the violation, and assessed a penalty.  Not sure what the appeal process is for, really, other than drag things out and cost everyone money.  I get the idea of an appeal, like a coaches challenge, if something was missed or new information comes to light.  But nothing new has happened here, and while there is no precedent for a 2 game suspension for attacking the head of a defenceless player, this is the first suspension of the new CBA, and in the new atmosphere  of enhanced player safety.  So THIS is the precedent.  

The only new information is the fact that Lawrence doesn't want to lose that much money, he wants to lose less.  That's it.  Purely about money. He hasn't become more apologetic, in fact, he has basically slapped Collaros in the face again by appealing, and making the CFLPA defend his actions in potentially ending Collaros' career.  Reducing his suspension means that all the players and CFLPA care about is money.  The CFLPA's "player safety initiative" becomes a punch line.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: the paw on June 20, 2019, 02:53:11 PM
An appeal should carry the potential of both a reduction and an increase in penalty.  Otherwise, every ruling will be appealed.  You have to give the arbiter the ability to increase teh penalty if he feels the offending party was not sanctioned appropriately, taking into account post penalty actions. 

Before the assesment of the penalty, Lawrence was apologetic and contrite.  Post assessment, he was not.  The fact that he does not think 2 game suspension is warranted for potentially ending a career though his actions (intentional or not), this fact needs to be part of the arbiter's decision.

The fact of the issue is that Lawrence hit a QB that had clearly surrendered himself.  He had ample time to pull up, and should not have initiated any contact with a helpless QB.  No excuses about "heat of the moment" or "continuing the play" can stand here.  QB surrendered with a slide, and that ends the play.  Lawrence continued and injured Collaros.

There were people calling for a 6 game suspension, other that wanted him suspended until Collaros returns.  Either of those outcomes, while harsh, would signal the league's desire to end this practice.

I think that is the appeal goes though, the arbiter should increase the penalty to a 4 game suspension, and thus end anyone risking an appeal without an actual grievance.   

If there is a reduction of the suspension, then the league and CFLPA have lost all ability to say player safety is any concern of either group.

Now, should a backup Olineman be activated from the PR next SSK/HAM game, and should he accidentally fall on Simoni's knee after a "Jumbo Team" play... well...


"blah, blah, hyperbole, blah, missing the point, fantasy outcomes, etc."


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 20, 2019, 02:58:16 PM

"blah, blah, hyperbole, blah, missing the point, fantasy outcomes, etc."

Really?  Please give me an intelligent response rebutting my point. 

This is a new CBA, this is a new atmosphere of player safety, and this was an egregious violation with career ending potential, and it could have even been worse.  Lawrence is lucky Collaros may have a potential of playing again, he could have been much worse.

2 games is light in my opinion, given the CFL and CFLPA's commitment to improving player safety.  Giving a player a 2 game suspension and the ability to appeal it to 1 game or even less just does not jive with the seriousness of the situation.  I can't see how anyone can dispute that fact.

This was a late hit on a vulnerable player by a player who has a history of taking liberties in this way, but hasn't had a suspension previously.

 


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: BBRT on June 20, 2019, 03:06:58 PM
Really?  Please give me an intelligent response rebutting my point. 

This is a new CBA, this is a new atmosphere of player safety, and this was an egregious violation with career ending potential, and it could have even been worse.  Lawrence is lucky Collaros may have a potential of playing again, he could have been much worse.

2 games is light in my opinion, given the CFL and CFLPA's commitment to improving player safety.  Giving a player a 2 game suspension and the ability to appeal it to 1 game or even less just does not jive with the seriousness of the situation.  I can't see how anyone can dispute that fact.

This was a late hit on a vulnerable player by a player who has a history of taking liberties in this way, but hasn't had a suspension previously.

 
Hi Aards - I can understand why the CFLPA would file an appeal. It really has nothing to do with SL or the hit or the seriousness of the situation. The CFLPA is a union and every union agreement that I have been involved with negotiating (and that includes the Teamsters in the good ol USA) has an appeal process. It is just due process and an option that any union legal entity would invoke regardless of the situation. I have been through a number of these sitting on management side over the years when I was a CFO in the US. I think it will follow due process and at the end of the day he will be suspended for 2 games. However as a union member he is entitled to due process based on the collective agreement in place.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on June 20, 2019, 03:27:59 PM
This is a new CBA, this is a new atmosphere of player safety, and this was an egregious violation with career ending potential, and it could have even been worse.  Lawrence is lucky Collaros may have a potential of playing again, he could have been much worse.

2 games is light in my opinion, given the CFL and CFLPA's commitment to improving player safety.  Giving a player a 2 game suspension and the ability to appeal it to 1 game or even less just does not jive with the seriousness of the situation.  I can't see how anyone can dispute that fact.

This was a late hit on a vulnerable player by a player who has a history of taking liberties in this way, but hasn't had a suspension previously.

You can't say he has a history of taking liberties. You're not backing that up with anything.
Fact Check He's never been suspended.

The only reason this is potentially "career ending" is because Collaros shouldn't be playing freaking football. That's not SL's problem. It's a Zach problem.

You saying 2 games is "light" isn't based on reality. It's a massive suspension by CFL standards. This isn't a slap on the wrist. It's a big step up in head shot punishment. Especially for a player with a clean record.


Of course he is appealing and we all would with the present outcome of appeals (almost certainly it gets reduced just for asking).  

Now, if they included the possibility that the suspension would be increased on appeal, does that change whether you would risk an appeal?  

They looked at the violation, and assessed a penalty.  Not sure what the appeal process is for, really, other than drag things out and cost everyone money.  I get the idea of an appeal, like a coaches challenge, if something was missed or new information comes to light.  But nothing new has happened here, and while there is no precedent for a 2 game suspension for attacking the head of a defenceless player, this is the first suspension of the new CBA, and in the new atmosphere  of enhanced player safety.  So THIS is the precedent.  

The only new information is the fact that Lawrence doesn't want to lose that much money, he wants to lose less.  That's it.  Purely about money. He hasn't become more apologetic, in fact, he has basically slapped Collaros in the face again by appealing, and making the CFLPA defend his actions in potentially ending Collaros' career.  Reducing his suspension means that all the players and CFLPA care about is money.  The CFLPA's "player safety initiative" becomes a punch line.

In what universe does a penalty or suspension ever get increased in appeal? The governing body puts forth a precedent setting harsh punishment, and you're telling us in a just world, this suspension might be increased. Huh?

The right to an appeal is about rights. Not money, not insults to Zach, not slaps in the faces. It's a right that SL has. Players have fought hard for their rights. This is one of them.



Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 20, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
Hi Aards - I can understand why the CFLPA would file an appeal. It really has nothing to do with SL or the hit or the seriousness of the situation. The CFLPA is a union and every union agreement that I have been involved with negotiating (and that includes the Teamsters in the good ol USA) has an appeal process. It is just due process and an option that any union legal entity would invoke regardless of the situation. I have been through a number of these sitting on management side over the years when I was a CFO in the US. I think it will follow due process and at the end of the day he will be suspended for 2 games. However as a union member he is entitled to due process based on the collective agreement in place.

Yes.  He has a right to appeal.  But why is he appealing?  Was the penalty undeserved?  Too harsh?  Unreasonable?  This is a new era, a new CBA, and a new commitment to player safety.  The CFLPA is conflicted in this as they fought for this CBA on the idea of improving player safety, which this infraction is a blatant abuse of, and in total contravention of the entire platform the CFLPA stood on in making this CBA.  This CBA was not about money, not about the right to make a living, but all about the players safety, and the league protecting those players with spotters, independent doctors, etc.

My point is that invoking his "due process" means that he does not believe he did something worthy of this suspension.  He is not contrite and remorseful, and that is the whole issue.  He portrayed himself as such at the time of the incident, and after the game, and his 2 game suspension was based on that.  To appeal, he has to take the stand that what he did wasn't that wrong, and the penalty was unreasonable (although we do not have a precedent *under the current CBA and player safety commitment*.  This suspension sets the tone and precedent.  The CFLPA should have counseled Lawrence to sit down and shut up for the good of the CFLPA and the league.  The team should have counseled him the same. 

If he gets a reduction, then the CFLPA is complicit in undermining player safety.  The league won't be able to give out suspensions of 2 games or longer if he wins this appeal, precedent will have been set.  It is important for player safety that this gets upheld.  And yes, an appeal, where there is now information, should be able to yield an increased penalty, show me where it says it can't.  THAT would stop appeals, and show that both the CFL and CFLPA are truly committed to the players health, and not just their bank account. 

You can't say he has a history of taking liberties. You're not backing that up with anything.
Fact Check He's never been suspended.

The only reason this is potentially "career ending" is because Collaros shouldn't be playing freaking football. That's not SL's problem. It's a Zach problem.

You saying 2 games is "light" isn't based on reality. It's a massive suspension by CFL standards. This isn't a slap on the wrist. It's a big step up in head shot punishment. Especially for a player with a clean record.


In what universe does a penalty or suspension ever get increased in appeal? The governing body puts forth a precedent setting harsh punishment, and you're telling us in a just world, this suspension might be increased. Huh?

The right to an appeal is about rights. Not money, not insults to Zach, not slaps in the faces. It's a right that SL has. Players have fought hard for their rights. This is one of them.

Never said Lawrence had been suspended, but he may have been had the present player safety climate been in effect.  He has a history of UR and RTP fould, and is known as a dirty player.  No one is surprised he did what he did. 

What is the basis for the appeal?  Yes, he has the right to appeal.  But what is the basis for that appeal?  Is he claiming he did nothing wrong?  Or that it was only a little bit wrong?  That he is remorseful, and won't do it again?  He knew suspension was possible, he might not have thought 2 games, but still, he knew supplemental discipline was kicking up this year. 

If he gets a reduction, everyone loses.  Player safety becomes a joke.

If it is upheld (or increased due to lack of remorse and his obvious disregard for the rules regarding player safety that he flagrantly defied), then we have a precedent that is appropriate heading forward.  If it is increased, we then stop the appeal process, except where there is an actual reason to appeal.

Yes, he has the right to appeal.  And he also has the ability to take his punishment like a man, and respect the CFLPA and CFL's efforts to improve player safety.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 20, 2019, 04:00:15 PM
Really?  Please give me an intelligent response rebutting my point. 

This is a new CBA, this is a new atmosphere of player safety, and this was an egregious violation with career ending potential, and it could have even been worse.  Lawrence is lucky Collaros may have a potential of playing again, he could have been much worse.

2 games is light in my opinion, given the CFL and CFLPA's commitment to improving player safety.  Giving a player a 2 game suspension and the ability to appeal it to 1 game or even less just does not jive with the seriousness of the situation.  I can't see how anyone can dispute that fact.

This was a late hit on a vulnerable player by a player who has a history of taking liberties in this way, but hasn't had a suspension previously.

Your response to the situation is the very reason rules and a process are put in place to follow, so that aggrieved individuals do not get overly emotional and decide to lynch the perpetrator without trial to obtain their version of justice.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 20, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
Your response to the situation is the very reason rules and a process are put in place to follow, so that aggrieved individuals do not get overly emotional and decide to lynch the perpetrator without trial to obtain their version of justice.

Just because you have the right to appeal does not mean you have to exercise it.  Sure, this is a precedent setting penalty, in a new climate of player safety.  I do not think it is unreasonable.  Upholding it says player safety is paramount.  Setting it aside or reducing it, well...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on June 20, 2019, 04:22:45 PM
Yes.  He has a right to appeal.  But why is he appealing?  Was the penalty undeserved?  Too harsh?  Unreasonable?  This is a new era, a new CBA, and a new commitment to player safety.  The CFLPA is conflicted in this as they fought for this CBA on the idea of improving player safety, which this infraction is a blatant abuse of, and in total contravention of the entire platform the CFLPA stood on in making this CBA.  This CBA was not about money, not about the right to make a living, but all about the players safety, and the league protecting those players with spotters, independent doctors, etc.

My point is that invoking his "due process" means that he does not believe he did something worthy of this suspension.  He is not contrite and remorseful, and that is the whole issue.  He portrayed himself as such at the time of the incident, and after the game, and his 2 game suspension was based on that.  To appeal, he has to take the stand that what he did wasn't that wrong, and the penalty was unreasonable (although we do not have a precedent *under the current CBA and player safety commitment*.  This suspension sets the tone and precedent.  The CFLPA should have counseled Lawrence to sit down and shut up for the good of the CFLPA and the league.  The team should have counseled him the same. 

If he gets a reduction, then the CFLPA is complicit in undermining player safety.  The league won't be able to give out suspensions of 2 games or longer if he wins this appeal, precedent will have been set.  It is important for player safety that this gets upheld.  And yes, an appeal, where there is now information, should be able to yield an increased penalty, show me where it says it can't.  THAT would stop appeals, and show that both the CFL and CFLPA are truly committed to the players health, and not just their bank account. 

Never said Lawrence had been suspended, but he may have been had the present player safety climate been in effect.  He has a history of UR and RTP fould, and is known as a dirty player.  No one is surprised he did what he did. 

What is the basis for the appeal?  Yes, he has the right to appeal.  But what is the basis for that appeal?  Is he claiming he did nothing wrong?  Or that it was only a little bit wrong?  That he is remorseful, and won't do it again?  He knew suspension was possible, he might not have thought 2 games, but still, he knew supplemental discipline was kicking up this year. 

If he gets a reduction, everyone loses.  Player safety becomes a joke.

If it is upheld (or increased due to lack of remorse and his obvious disregard for the rules regarding player safety that he flagrantly defied), then we have a precedent that is appropriate heading forward.  If it is increased, we then stop the appeal process, except where there is an actual reason to appeal.

Yes, he has the right to appeal.  And he also has the ability to take his punishment like a man, and respect the CFLPA and CFL's efforts to improve player safety.

To summarize. Acting like a man, means taking your punishment, and ignoring your rights and privileges - whether it's fair or not. It also means, the group you pay money too, out of every single paycheck you earn, to enforce and protect your rights, should tell you to shut up and sit in the corner, and not exercise your rights.

Whether the CFLPA wants more player safety or not is utterly irrelevant to the obscene suggestion you make, that they should ignore their duty to protect SLs rights. They should refund his union dues and fold as an organization too in that event.

The appeal has nothing to do with being wrongly convicted, or phantom new information. It has to do with the authoritarian power of the Commish to dole out whatever suspension he deems fit for a crime. Subsequently, the players right to have a 3rd party look at things and determine if the punishment fit the crime.



Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 1chad on June 20, 2019, 04:29:00 PM
To summarize. Acting like a man, means taking your punishment, and ignoring your rights and privileges - whether it's fair or not. It also means, the group you pay money too, out of every single paycheck you earn, to enforce and protect your rights, should tell you to shut up and sit in the corner, and not exercise your rights.

Whether the CFLPA wants more player safety or not is utterly irrelevant to the obscene suggestion you make, that they should ignore their duty to protect SLs rights. They should refund his union dues and fold as an organization too in that event.

The appeal has nothing to do with being wrongly convicted, or phantom new information. It has to do with the authoritarian power of the Commish to dole out whatever suspension he deems fit for a crime. Subsequently, the players right to have a 3rd party look at things and determine if the punishment fit the crime.



One of the biggest problems with this entire situation is that the new CBA is not available to anyone other than the league and the CFLPA at this time.  We do not know what language surrounds the subject of player safety, what penalties have bee agreed upon, etc.  Perhaps the CFLPA feels the suspension is excessive according to the rules they and the league had just agreed upon? As a first case under the new CBA, it will set precedent for all future disciplinary actions; fines vs suspensions, etc.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 20, 2019, 04:46:21 PM
One of the biggest problems with this entire situation is that the new CBA is not available to anyone other than the league and the CFLPA at this time.  We do not know what language surrounds the subject of player safety, what penalties have bee agreed upon, etc.  Perhaps the CFLPA feels the suspension is excessive according to the rules they and the league had just agreed upon? As a first case under the new CBA, it will set precedent for all future disciplinary actions; fines vs suspensions, etc.

...and that should be taken into consideration for all the warriors of justice, Jeffcoat's head-shot on Bridge in the WSF was seen by some (Rider fans, not me) as intentional.  Any head-shot to a QB may well earn an immediate ejection along with a one game suspension moving forward as accidental or intentional is almost impossible to determine.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 20, 2019, 05:07:22 PM
The CFLPA has released their rebuttal to Ambrosie's statement.


CFLPA responds to misleading statement by commissioner?s office citing sudden concern for player safety and questioning the rights of all CFL players
The Commissioner?s public attack on the process and the rights allotted to all CFL players, as mutually agreed to in the collective agreement, is both disappointing and unhelpful.

There were two players involved in a play on opening night. One player was injured and the other has since been assessed a two-game suspension. Both players have rights, and both are members of the CFL Players? Association. Our commitment to player safety must be balanced by our duty to ensure every player receives fair representation when these situations happen. Generally, players have not been treated equally and therefore unfairly by the process the Commissioner currently follows in these instances.

The Commissioner?s gratuitous attack on the rights of players is an attempt to gain a public relations advantage during a difficult situation. Just like player safety, he says the right things in public but the League under his leadership acts quite differently when it comes to implementing change.

On multiple occasions, including our recent collective negotiations, we proposed the CFL adopt a system, currently used with success in the NFL, that would introduce fair and transparent protocols for players facing supplemental discipline. The process would be more equitable for players, streamline decisions and remove the subjective and inconsistent discipline in the hands of the Commissioner. This process would also provide a binding decision.

Our proposal was rejected by the CFL leaving the CFLPA to choose between its members, one injured and the other suspended.

Clearly, there is a need for improvements to the disciplinary process. Until the League is willing to work towards a solution, the CFLPA will fight for all of its members. We will continue to advance player safety measures and at the same time represent players whose discipline is inconsistent with past practice.

Our members expect no less.

We encourage the Commissioner to use this time to get serious about player safety and have productive discussions with us that are focused on designing a fair and transparent process that will deal with on field safety.


https://cflpa.com/cflpa-cfl-statement-6-20-19/


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Jesse on June 20, 2019, 05:25:01 PM
And now they're publicly fighting, which is the worst case scenario.

Bunch of children, honestly.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on June 20, 2019, 05:49:54 PM
It seems to be such an easy thing to improve the process. Whether that is like the NFL model or otherwise.

Just speed up the process and avoid it being dragged out for days or weeks. Make the arbitration part of the process at the beginning within a few days instead of in the week that follows.

At worst this needs to be concluded before next weeks game.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: BLUEBOMBER on June 20, 2019, 06:57:13 PM
QBs are the most important asset in the league.  CFL needs to expel all repeat offenders in the league to send a clear message that hits on QBs won't be tolerated in any form or way.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: dd on June 20, 2019, 08:55:32 PM
What a sad situation. Both sides publically p*ssing on one another, trying to gain the upper hand , both look like idiots to me. All BS aside, the hit was a premeditated, totally avoidable head shot, 2 games is extremely light in this day and age, and to be bantering and blithering on about players rights blah blah blah, when a guy just suffered another serious head shot, that was totally avoidable, as were several of the ones he took before, is just totally sad. Quit b*tching about rights and process, and eliminate the **** hits by suspending the players at least 3 games for their first blatant heads shot, 6 for the next and 9 for the next. If they did this, head shots would disappear. Keep giving slaps on wrists/fines, and measely 2 game suspensions that are appealed, nothing will change except the date and time. There is nothing to appeal in this case, the guy is as guilty as sin and should sit, shut up and serve his suspension for his gutless cheapshot


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Donny C on June 20, 2019, 09:42:01 PM
I do not know whom the players will side with, but I imagine the majority of fans will side with the Commissioner, and not the CFLPA.

Does that really matter to the CFLPA? I'm not sure.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TecnoGenius on June 21, 2019, 07:09:01 AM
You can't say he has a history of taking liberties. You're not backing that up with anything.
Fact Check He's never been suspended.

Never said Lawrence had been suspended, but he may have been had the present player safety climate been in effect.  He has a history of UR and RTP fould, and is known as a dirty player.  No one is surprised he did what he did. 

Aards is right about Simoni's history/reputation.  He's a line-skirting player, has been for nearly his whole time in the CFL.  Don't forget the Burris knee incident.  SL studies intently what is knicked on the other teams' players and shoots for them like they have targets painted on them.  Some would say that's savvy football that will win your team games, but it's still dirty.

When CFL fans think "dirty", SL is one of the first names that come to mind.  Like Hebert.  And a few others.

As far as appeals go, SL should not have appealed.  When 99% of the people who see that hit (the other 1% being a few HAM fans) say it's dirty, uncalled for, and should be punished severely, you accept your punishment if you're a mensch.  2 games was light and fair according to nearly everyone.

In normal society, the reason not every case is appealed is because appeals cost a bucket-load more money, and you need to have actual merit to win.  But, if the CFLPA picks up the entire tab for a player's appeal, there's no disincentive to appeal.  So of course everything will get appealed.  There needs to be some cost, some "skin in the game", for players, so they will only appeal if they staunchly feel they've been seriously wronged, and will win something of value.

In that sense, Aards is also slightly right in saying there has to be a possibility of a worse outcome if you appeal.  Of course appeals don't work that way, and they never will, but there has to be some disincentive to appealing everything in sight, and dragging every punishment out for a year.  I think you need to make it cost something (financially) to the player himself if he wants to appeal.

If SL is so certain he didn't mean it and he's sorry and he didn't hit him that hard and the 2 games is egregious, he should come out in a press conference and lay out precisely what his case is to the public.  Point it out in the video frame by frame.

If SL plays the whole year before this is resolved, a whole lot of fans are going to be angry.  If it's then reduced to 1/2 game cheque, fans are going to be livid.  Just look how riled up the WPG fans are, and this is in favor of a QB of the "most hated" team!!

I can tell you one thing, SL is never going to be hired in WPG as long as MOS is HC.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Darwinismyhomeboy on June 21, 2019, 01:07:11 PM
I want Collaris to appeal the finding as well.  That would be interesting.  Does the victim have rights here?


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 21, 2019, 01:57:47 PM
So, apparently 2 game suspension is the max in the CBA.  If so, then what offense would garner a larger suspension than a late hit to the head on a defenseless QB?  I can't think of any not involving a weapon...

I've been thinking of the disincentive for appeals... when a coach challenges (appeals) a call, if he is denied the appeal, he loses a time out on top of losing his ability to appeal later in the game.  Which is worse than if he did not appeal. So, yeah, there is a precedent in having a penalty for an appeal that was not won.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on June 21, 2019, 11:58:08 PM
Just heard on the pre game broadcast that the arbitration will be JULY 9!!!!!!!!!!!! That's this week and 2 more weeks? They have to speed up this process to ONE week. How do they reconcile a suspension that happens late in the season?

What happens if SL is injured and lost for the balance of the season?

Too many gaps in the process.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 66 Chevelle on June 22, 2019, 06:30:43 AM
seems a bit odd that it should take 3 weeks to schedule an appeals hearing... it seems that there is already a list of approved arbitrators, they just have to pick one... shouldn't be a surprise to whomever they selected, they've already agreed to being part of the process...

here's another kicker... whomever they select has 30 days to decide and answer the appeal... that means it could be a full 2 months since the actual incident before there is a decision!

while I respect the process and the right to appeal such discipline as outlined in the agreed upon CBA, I would think that there isn't any real reason why this couldn't be condensed down to a 7 to 10 day process, start to finish, from the time of the appeal...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TecnoGenius on June 22, 2019, 08:55:14 AM
seems a bit odd that it should take 3 weeks to schedule an appeals hearing... it seems that there is already a list of approved arbitrators, they just have to pick one...

SportsCentre after the @EDM game reported on this, saying the CFLPA said they can't be ready for the first available date.  The the CFL said they don't have personnel available the next date.  So it got pushed back to the 3rd available date.

Defenses (i.e. CFLPA) do this all the time to buy time.  I'm sure they could have been ready, but without incentive/punishment, why bother?  By delaying as long as possible, SL wins: he wins every week he's not suspended.

Whole thing looks bush league.  SC guys touched on that too, said fans won't take this in a good light.  Makes everyone look bad.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: the paw on June 22, 2019, 10:00:16 AM
The CFLPA tabled a proposal to institute a system that would be more transparent and less arbitrary, but would also be much quicker.

https://operations.nfl.com/football-ops/nfl-rules-enforcement/fines-appeals/

The league rejected the notion, and is now crying about having to follow the procedure they insisted on retaining.

The theatrics aren?t about protecting Collaros, it?s about Ambrosie wanting to hold the power...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 22, 2019, 03:29:14 PM
Apparently, the league wanted June 25, but the PA couldn't do that, and wanted the 29th, (or vice versa), so they settled on a mutually available July 9th...

Regardless, it is too long and  waste of time and money, because there is no way the CFLPA can present a case where the suspension is lessened, and the CFL can't make it longer. 

So, rather than sitting for TOR and MTL games, Ham will lose him for CGY and WPG, two much harder games... but now that I see he won't be headhunting Nichols, I'm kinda OK with it...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue girl on June 22, 2019, 06:55:47 PM
Apparently, the league wanted June 25, but the PA couldn't do that, and wanted the 29th, (or vice versa), so they settled on a mutually available July 9th...

Regardless, it is too long and  waste of time and money, because there is no way the CFLPA can present a case where the suspension is lessened, and the CFL can't make it longer. 

So, rather than sitting for TOR and MTL games, Ham will lose him for CGY and WPG, two much harder games... but now that I see he won't be headhunting Nichols, I'm kinda OK with it...
You're assuming that he'll still be suspended. I don't trust these arbitrators at all. I do hope though that he is suspended for Calgary and Winnipeg. It would serve him right.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on June 22, 2019, 09:29:12 PM
You're assuming that he'll still be suspended. I don't trust these arbitrators at all. I do hope though that he is suspended for Calgary and Winnipeg. It would serve him right.

If he isn't still suspended for 2 games,everyone loses


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on June 24, 2019, 12:19:00 PM
If he isn't still suspended for 2 games,everyone loses

I think Simoni would consider that a win.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 4everalonghair on July 09, 2019, 11:47:53 PM
Lawrence had his appeal hearing today. Should hear the verdict Wednesday or Thursday. I hope you he 2 games is upheld!


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 66 Chevelle on July 10, 2019, 01:18:40 AM
I'm not really sure how I feel about of this any more... it's become more 'window dressing' than anything else... it's hard for me to be vested in a problem when those with the most to lose or gain due to the problem don't seem to care themselves...

players know that rules have been added or those that existed have been modified which significantly reduces what is now allowable or acceptable... penalties for infractions have become more severe, some to the point that it truly can and does have an impact on whether your team wins or loses... they know that the league is watching for these type of actions and that more and more players are being fined and at times suspended as a result of them seemingly having little regard for compliance with these rules... each week you see multiple examples of disregard of their personal responsibility to play the game in a fashion that doesn't hurt those they play against and for as the number of penalties flagged have not diminished... 

at times it truly makes it hard to care when it seems that the players themselves care so little...  after all, how severe of consequences have to be used on them to deter them from continuing to do this? do they need to create an escalating number of games suspended when multiple offenses are committed to the point you sit for a season?  I don't know but it doesn't seem like what's in place is severe enough to achieve the results wanted...



Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TecnoGenius on July 10, 2019, 04:52:49 AM
That's why this suspension has to stand as-is.  It's a good first step towards addressing the problem.  Simoni is hoping the long delay has tempered people's outrage and he'll get off easier.  I say throw the book at him.

Here's another way to look at things: a $150k player is able to take out a $500k player for a game or season.  There's got to be protections against that.  The league is worse because Zach got cheap-shot'ed.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: olwpgjet on July 10, 2019, 11:57:05 AM
I really don't know much about it but my take is if Lawrence asks the CFLPA to intervene , they probably have an obligation to assist. Ambrosie and the league have their hands tied to follow previous protocol and probably the same with CFLPA. I think his statement isn't as much about  this situation as it is lobbying about change  and increasing their power and the penalties going forward possibly whenever the next collective bargaining agreement is.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on July 10, 2019, 12:38:04 PM
The CFLPA tabled a proposal to institute a system that would be more transparent and less arbitrary, but would also be much quicker.

https://operations.nfl.com/football-ops/nfl-rules-enforcement/fines-appeals/

The league rejected the notion, and is now crying about having to follow the procedure they insisted on retaining.

The theatrics aren?t about protecting Collaros, it?s about Ambrosie wanting to hold the power...

I'm sure that's not the whole story. The CFLPA probably suggested a more transparent system and in order to implement it wanted something in return. The league said no way, and that was the end of the discussion.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Horseman on July 10, 2019, 12:57:12 PM
SL is lucky, I'm not the arbitrator because much like an appeal in the justice system, if you appeal you take a chance your punishment will:

a) remain the same.
b) be reduced.
c) be increased.

I would look at the appeal, as a complete lack of remorse for his dirty hit which injured ZC and possibly ended his career, I would then increase his suspension to 4 games. But that is just me.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 10, 2019, 02:04:14 PM
SL is lucky, I'm not the arbitrator because much like an appeal in the justice system, if you appeal you take a chance your punishment will:

a) remain the same.
b) be reduced.
c) be increased.

I would look at the appeal, as a complete lack of remorse for his dirty hit which injured ZC and possibly ended his career, I would then increase his suspension to 4 games. But that is just me.

That's crazy, an appeal isn't a lack of remorse.



Let me create a hypothetical scenario for you:

Texting and driving is illegal. You do it (oops), and get a ticket.

(remember this is my made up scenario) However, the punishment isn't doled out that day, instead you get a letter in the mail from The Honourable Chief Justice Glenn D. Joyal announcing you've been handed triple the punishment of any other driver in Manitoba history.

- A 3 week suspension of license
- A $2000 fine
- 15 demerit points.

Yup, triple just for you.

You understand being punished, you're just not sure why an unprecedented punishment has to be arbitrarily handed out to you.

So you appeal asking for the usual punishment. Is that a lack of remorse? I don't think so.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: bowlerdude on July 10, 2019, 02:09:47 PM
That's why this suspension has to stand as-is.  It's a good first step towards addressing the problem.  Simoni is hoping the long delay has tempered people's outrage and he'll get off easier.  I say throw the book at him.

Here's another way to look at things: a $150k player is able to take out a $500k player for a game or season.  There's got to be protections against that.  The league is worse because Zach got cheap-shot'ed.

I don't even think it's a good first step towards addressing the problem at this point, it's been drawn out so long. The CFL suspension/appeal system is a total joke, has been forever, and now they finally try to make a stand and can't get an appeal done for 4 weeks. Crazy.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: JoePop on July 10, 2019, 03:05:02 PM
I think that if you appeal and you lose the appeal you not only have to sit out the games you were originally suspended for but also the number games you played while waiting for appeal process. So in this case Simoni sits the 2 games he was suspended for plus the 2 or 3 games he has played while waiting for the arbitration.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Horseman on July 10, 2019, 03:10:18 PM
That's crazy, an appeal isn't a lack of remorse.



Let me create a hypothetical scenario for you:

Texting and driving is illegal. You do it (oops), and get a ticket.

(remember this is my made up scenario) However, the punishment isn't doled out that day, instead you get a letter in the mail from The Honourable Chief Justice Glenn D. Joyal announcing you've been handed triple the punishment of any other driver in Manitoba history.

- A 3 week suspension of license
- A $2000 fine
- 15 demerit points.

Yup, triple just for you.

You understand being punished, you're just not sure why an unprecedented punishment has to be arbitrarily handed out to you.

So you appeal asking for the usual punishment. Is that a lack of remorse? I don't think so.

Apples and oranges, a 2 game suspension is not an unheard of punishment for this incident, it is justified and acceptable. If you appeal this, it means you do not agree with the suspension based on your actions (ie: you do not feel your actions deserved this punishment...no remorse). When you appeal, you run the risk of a, b, or c, happening, and I feel increasing the suspension to 4 games is a just punishment for this incident. Like I said, he is lucky I'm not the arbitrator.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Horseman on July 10, 2019, 03:11:33 PM
I think that if you appeal and you lose the appeal you not only have to sit out the games you were originally suspended for but also the number games you played while waiting for appeal process. So in this case Simoni sits the 2 games he was suspended for plus the 2 or 3 games he has played while waiting for the arbitration.

I like this idea.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 4everalonghair on July 10, 2019, 03:13:12 PM
Now the decision isn't expected until after the weekend. So he gets to play another game.  What a Joke!


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 10, 2019, 03:34:15 PM
I suppose the decision being held back to the weekend makes sense in the weirdest way. In theory the team is preparing for him to play this week and he's taking 1st string reps. To uphold the decision a few days before a game seem unfair to the team at a certain level.

That said, this could have been done in a couple of days after the incident and not taken this long to get the result.

What does the league do if a suspension happens in game 15 of the season? You can't wait until 2020 to do the appeal.

Figure this out and make the process RAPID when it occurs in the future.

I'll be disappointed if this is overturned or reduced. We need an example made.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TheHypnotoad on July 10, 2019, 03:36:10 PM
SL is lucky, I'm not the arbitrator because much like an appeal in the justice system, if you appeal you take a chance your punishment will:

a) remain the same.
b) be reduced.
c) be increased.

I would look at the appeal, as a complete lack of remorse for his dirty hit which injured ZC and possibly ended his career, I would then increase his suspension to 4 games. But that is just me.

The CBA only permits a 2 game suspension. So not gonna happne LOL!!!


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Ridermania on July 10, 2019, 03:40:05 PM
CFL will not announce the suspension appeal until Monday.

This way he plays July 13th vs Calgary and then misses July 26th vs Winnipeg and the August1st game vs Riders.

This is my conspiracy theory on the situation.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: bomb squad on July 10, 2019, 04:04:24 PM
I don't understand why he wants to appeal. If it was 4 games I could see it, but it's 2 games. I know it's a huge deal to a pro football player to miss 2 games, but what does he realistically think he's going to gain and is it worth the distraction in the meantime? No suspension? Not going to happen. Reduced to one game? Still a longshot IMO. Not worth it Simoni. Serve your 2 games, get it over with. Come back healthy and rested and 100% focused on winning and being a great defensive player. One who plays hard, aggressive, and on the edge, but at the same time respects the safety of his fellow pros. It can be done. Now go and do it.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 10, 2019, 04:10:18 PM
Apples and oranges, a 2 game suspension is not an unheard of punishment for this incident, it is justified and acceptable. If you appeal this, it means you do not agree with the suspension based on your actions (ie: you do not feel your actions deserved this punishment...no remorse). When you appeal, you run the risk of a, b, or c, happening, and I feel increasing the suspension to 4 games is a just punishment for this incident. Like I said, he is lucky I'm not the arbitrator.

No it's not. Could you please cite specific examples of a first time offender being suspended for multiple games for a head shot incident.

(spoiler alert... it's never happened)


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 10, 2019, 04:27:35 PM
No it's not. Could you please cite specific examples of a first time offender being suspended for multiple games for a head shot incident.

(spoiler alert... it's never happened)

Yes it has. At least once when a Bomber was suspended for 3 games After the Season after not actually taking an in game penalty or disqualification. It was a decision based on the accumulation of his play. Ultimately he choose to retire.

While he was not exactly a 1st time offender. OTOH the decision was not based on one specific incident but for his reckless style of play, after the fact.

The long arm of the CFL law finally caught up with bad boy Brandon Dyson.

The CFL finally dealt with the so-called Dyson incident on Monday, seven months after it occurred.

Dyson, an import offensive lineman with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers, was suspended three games and fined $1,500 for a chop block on defensive tackle Clinton Wayne in a 27-19 Grey Cup loss to the Calgary Stampeders on Nov. 25, 2001.

 EDIT: Here's another one.

The CFL has suspended Redblacks linebacker Kyries Hebert. Again.

Hebert was handed a two-game punishment ? his second suspension of the season ? after hitting Montreal Alouettes receiver B.J. Cunningham in the ?side of his head in a reckless manner,? according to the league.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TBURGESS on July 10, 2019, 04:39:07 PM
Neither of your examples are first time offenders.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 10, 2019, 04:59:24 PM
Neither of your examples are first time offenders.

They had to be 1st time offenders in order to be repeat offenders. As I mentioned in regard to Dyson, his 1st suspension was a 3 game suspension. It was not a cumulative decision based on other suspensions, or even penalties per se. It was based on his style of play and the perceived risk to other players.

So it's going to depend on the definition of 1st time offenders to some degree. We've had at least one RP penalty in 2019 up graded to 25 yards from the normal 15 yard penalty. It was interesting that a disqualification was not enforced in that game. No suspension was handed out.

Does that make this a 1st time offense? Where does the line get drawn? If he whacks a player in his next game does he get a suspension ruled?

Many players will get RP penalties during the season. The Esks took something like 6 when they played the Bombers. Ottawa has taken multiple as well and in some cases by the same player.

The degree of how hard, how late and the intent all come into play whether it's the 1st play of the 1st game of a 1st year player or a 10 year veteran.

I'm not sure where Lawrence falls. Hard to imagine he's never taken a RP to a helmet before. Some of them are so marginal but still within the rule as a RP. By that definition he's not a 1st time offender so that's a thin excuse IMO.

EDIT: Players that failed a drug test are suspended 2 games for 1st infraction. So in theory you can harm yourself and be penalized more than if you potentially end another players career.

Something is out of whack.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: GCn18 on July 10, 2019, 05:03:41 PM
Lawrence will get his suspension reduced to 1 game imo.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 10, 2019, 05:05:16 PM
Lawrence will get his suspension reduced to 1 game imo.

Probably and that will be very disappointing for the CFL. What's the point of having a 2 game max if you can't enforce it? What does it take to make a 2 game stick?


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue_gold_84 on July 10, 2019, 05:12:26 PM
Apples and oranges, a 2 game suspension is not an unheard of punishment for this incident, it is justified and acceptable. If you appeal this, it means you do not agree with the suspension based on your actions (ie: you do not feel your actions deserved this punishment...no remorse). When you appeal, you run the risk of a, b, or c, happening, and I feel increasing the suspension to 4 games is a just punishment for this incident. Like I said, he is lucky I'm not the arbitrator.

Well, you'd never be based on your commentary. The arbitrator is meant to be a neutral party who looks at the entire case and makes an objective, unbiased decision based on the factors of that case. No different than any other league.

Remember: the league (employer) and the players' association (union) agreed to these terms as set out in the CBA. Every player has the right to exercise the process of appealing a punishment handed down.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 66 Chevelle on July 10, 2019, 05:33:21 PM
That's crazy, an appeal isn't a lack of remorse.



Let me create a hypothetical scenario for you:

Texting and driving is illegal. You do it (oops), and get a ticket.

(remember this is my made up scenario) However, the punishment isn't doled out that day, instead you get a letter in the mail from The Honourable Chief Justice Glenn D. Joyal announcing you've been handed triple the punishment of any other driver in Manitoba history.

- A 3 week suspension of license
- A $2000 fine
- 15 demerit points.

Yup, triple just for you.

You understand being punished, you're just not sure why an unprecedented punishment has to be arbitrarily handed out to you.

So you appeal asking for the usual punishment. Is that a lack of remorse? I don't think so.

you make a very good point in regards to his appeal and whether or it about showing a lack of remorse... and maybe even a good argument about him being singled out and being treated differently as well... 

and after reading this, the first thing that came to mind was when I was a kid and I would appeal to my mom when I'd get in trouble and what she would say...

Chevelle: but, but mom... when Russell did this you didn't ground him for 2 weeks...

Mom: this is about what your brother did, or what I did to him, this is about what you did... you say another word and it's 3 weeks... got it?

if I were the arbitrator, I'd allow Lawrence, or his representation to make their case while sitting quietly and when done I wouldn't say a word, merely run a clip of the actual hit and look at them very emotionless-ly and say, "another word and it's 3 games"... then proceed to get up and walk out the door...

but that's just me...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: GCn18 on July 10, 2019, 05:37:37 PM
Probably and that will be very disappointing for the CFL. What's the point of having a 2 game max if you can't enforce it? What does it take to make a 2 game stick?

It's the CFL's own fault really. This is the first time it has ever tried a 2 game suspension for that offence and that will be what gets Lawrence's suspension reduced imo.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 10, 2019, 05:51:37 PM
They had to be 1st time offenders in order to be repeat offenders. As I mentioned in regard to Dyson, his 1st suspension was a 3 game suspension. It was not a cumulative decision based on other suspensions, or even penalties per se. It was based on his style of play and the perceived risk to other players.

So it's going to depend on the definition of 1st time offenders to some degree. We've had at least one RP penalty in 2019 up graded to 25 yards from the normal 15 yard penalty. It was interesting that a disqualification was not enforced in that game. No suspension was handed out.

First time offender is actually extremely simple, and I'm not sure why you're making it complicated. Someone who hasn't been ejected from a game, fined or suspended relating to on field conduct.

Simoni Lawrence is a first time offender.

As mentioned above, neither of your examples are legit. Neither were first time offenders.

Dyson
- He had been ejected from a game.
- He had been fined twice prior for on field incidents.
- His "3 Game" suspension was 2 pre-season games and a regular season game. He lost 1 game cheque, and kept his pre-season per diems.  I don't know what to call that, but pre-season suspension doesn't count in my books.

Hebert
- His 2 game punishment was his second suspension - of the season - for an illegal headshot.
- He ejected and fined for a headshot a few seasons prior to that.

So again I say, Simoni has a case that this is precedent setting.


BTW - I personally hope his suspension holds up. I just think it's silly to expect he wouldn't appeal an unprecedented ruling against him.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 66 Chevelle on July 10, 2019, 06:02:44 PM

BTW - I personally hope his suspension holds up. I just think it's silly to expect he wouldn't appeal an unprecedented ruling against him.


I agree with you and could see the point you were making had nothing to do with what he did, other than filing for an appeal...

but filing for appeal is the first thing everyone does, it has nothing to do with being sorry or not, or whether you did it or not... it's an avenue that's open to him as part of the process...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Ridermania on July 10, 2019, 06:10:02 PM
CFL will delay his 2 game suspension so he misses games vs Winnipeg and Saskatchewan.

This way no extra on field or off field drama/security to deal with in Regina.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue_or_die on July 10, 2019, 06:12:00 PM
...Regardless of being a first time offender or not, wouldn't this be an excellent opportunity to set precedent that this type of act will receive no tolerance regardless if you're a first time offender, etc?


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Horseman on July 10, 2019, 06:24:27 PM
The CBA only permits a 2 game suspension. So not gonna happne LOL!!!

The CBA needs changing then, if a player appeals and then loses his appeal and the suspension/punishment is increased, then they will think twice about appealing.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TheHypnotoad on July 10, 2019, 06:27:46 PM
The CBA needs changing then, if a player appeals and then loses his appeal and the suspension/punishment is increased, then they will think twice about appealing.

CBA was just negotiated and the CFLPA is very clear that they put paychecks for dirtbags like larence above player safety. its crazy, but the players who vote for the CFLPA only care about $$ not their own health


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Horseman on July 10, 2019, 06:27:59 PM
No it's not. Could you please cite specific examples of a first time offender being suspended for multiple games for a head shot incident.

(spoiler alert... it's never happened)

He's not a first time offender, he is a known dirty player.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Horseman on July 10, 2019, 06:35:10 PM
I agree with you and could see the point you were making had nothing to do with what he did, other than filing for an appeal...

but filing for appeal is the first thing everyone does, it has nothing to do with being sorry or not, or whether you did it or not... it's an avenue that's open to him as part of the process...

A person with character and integrity would accept that what he did was wrong, and accept his punishment without appealing.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: BlueInCgy on July 10, 2019, 06:38:07 PM
Let's make it completely simple.

Player gets suspended.  His appeal process has actually zero factual base, but rather three door selection.  One door is double the original suspension, one door is half the original suspension, and one is no suspension whatsoever.  Two out of those three options actually improve the situation for the player, who clearly did something in order to warrant a suspension, and two of those things appease (somewhat) the wronged party.  It happens the day after the appeal is filed, and the result is binding and immediate.  Saves the CFL the time, money, and bad PR generated by waiting 4 weeks to hear an appeal, and is about as effective a deterrent as the current mechanism.  Second offense within three seasons and you get no right to appeal, third offense within three seasons and your contract is voided due to reckless endangerment of players well being.

Of course, I'm kidding, but only somewhat.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 10, 2019, 06:41:55 PM
First time offender is actually extremely simple, and I'm not sure why you're making it complicated. Someone who hasn't been ejected from a game, fined or suspended relating to on field conduct.

Simoni Lawrence is a first time offender.

As mentioned above, neither of your examples are legit. Neither were first time offenders.

Dyson
- He had been ejected from a game.
- He had been fined twice prior for on field incidents.
- His "3 Game" suspension was 2 pre-season games and a regular season game. He lost 1 game cheque, and kept his pre-season per diems.  I don't know what to call that, but pre-season suspension doesn't count in my books.

Hebert
- His 2 game punishment was his second suspension - of the season - for an illegal headshot.
- He ejected and fined for a headshot a few seasons prior to that.

So again I say, Simoni has a case that this is precedent setting.


BTW - I personally hope his suspension holds up. I just think it's silly to expect he wouldn't appeal an unprecedented ruling against him.


Because Lawrence has been known as a dirty player. There is more to it than whether a player has been suspended prior in making a two game determination. A player make take several dirty RP penalties during the season but doesn't necessarily get ejected or suspended.

Players can be fined or ejected for many things including contact with a referee. In theory they can be suspended for contact with a referee. Didn't work out for Rose with that 2018 infraction but IIRC it has in the past.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TBURGESS on July 10, 2019, 06:43:38 PM
He's a first time offender because he hasn't been ejected before. Hebert didn't get 2 games for his first offence.

Setting a new precedence for a first offence is guaranteed to start the appeal process.

My GUESS is that Lawrence's suspension gets downgraded to 1 game.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue_or_die on July 10, 2019, 06:58:03 PM
He's a first time offender because he hasn't been ejected before. Hebert didn't get 2 games for his first offence.

Setting a new precedence for a first offence is guaranteed to start the appeal process.

My GUESS is that Lawrence's suspension gets downgraded to 1 game.

I agree with your guess. Horrible way to set precedent and show that the league is ready to protect players from dirty hits.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 10, 2019, 07:21:54 PM
I agree with your guess. Horrible way to set precedent and show that the league is ready to protect players from dirty hits.

Yah, well they're not!  They are prepared to protect "QB's" from dirty hits, not other players!  Look at the Rainey return this past WE, Herdman was not penalized, fined or suspended for an extremely dangerous hit.  It would not be difficult to point out many similar head-shots that happen every week that are not addressed by the league.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 10, 2019, 07:52:39 PM
He's not a first time offender, he is a known dirty player.

Define "dirty player". Because according to the CBA, so league and it's players, he is not in fact a dirty player.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 10, 2019, 07:59:13 PM
A person with character and integrity would accept that what he did was wrong, and accept his punishment without appealing.

So to summarize your thoughts - a person who does something wrong should accept the penalty regardless of whether or not it's fair.

Sorry, this isn't communist Russia. Simoni has the right to ask if the penalty was fair via in independent arbitrator.



Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: bunker on July 10, 2019, 08:01:55 PM
I think it will be reduced to one game based on precedent. I think the CFL knows this but preferred the optics of at least being shown to try for a 2 game suspension.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 10, 2019, 08:05:31 PM
Define "dirty player". Because according to the CBA, so league and it's players, he is not in fact a dirty player.

Multiple RP penalties during the course of his career. Unnecessary or late hits that resulted in those RP's.

It's not a complicated assessment.



Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Horseman on July 11, 2019, 12:39:06 AM
So to summarize your thoughts - a person who does something wrong should accept the penalty regardless of whether or not it's fair.

Sorry, this isn't communist Russia. Simoni has the right to ask if the penalty was fair via in independent arbitrator.



The penalty is/was fair...end of story, if you don't think a 2 game suspension was fair for that hit...well, it is hopeless for you.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: GOLDMEMBER on July 11, 2019, 12:41:26 AM
2 better be upheld and of pk to hell is a hand basket.

He should not start against the BB and RR.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: dd on July 11, 2019, 02:25:05 AM
Yah, well they're not!  They are prepared to protect "QB's" from dirty hits, not other players!  Look at the Rainey return this past WE, Herdman was not penalized, fined or suspended for an extremely dangerous hit.  It would not be difficult to point out many similar head-shots that happen every week that are not addressed by the league.
That herdman hit was ridiculous and shows how far the league has got to go in terms of protecting the heads and health of its players. How do the officials miss such an obvious hit?? It was to the ball carrier, it?s not like it was away from the play or anything. Same for the Harris facemask. What the heck are you watching if you miss a foul to the head of the ball carrier?!?! And even if/when the on field officials miss these calls, and they ll miss more, the command centre has got to step in and call the foul.

To me, herdman should have been at least fined for that hit. It was uncontrolled and high and reckless. Total joke it went unpenaltized, and no fine or suspension. Total joke.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 66 Chevelle on July 11, 2019, 05:49:19 AM
Multiple RP penalties during the course of his career. Unnecessary or late hits that resulted in those RP's.

It's not a complicated assessment.



you don't have to even go to prior history, just watch the hit that he is currently appealing... he clearly meant to do nothing but hurt a player that was already in process of giving himself up... the way he lowered his head and shoulder then took aim as him came as fast and as hard as he could directly at the head area...  it was the type of clearly blatant hit that needs to be eliminated from the game...

there is a difference between getting to a QB late, especially if you already have your energy heading that direction and unable to pull up... still a penalty but not necessarily done with malice...



Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 11, 2019, 12:43:59 PM
Multiple RP penalties during the course of his career. Unnecessary or late hits that resulted in those RP's.

It's not a complicated assessment.


Multiple RP penalties absolutely does not factor in when it comes to assessing whether or not someone is a first time offender.

Simoni has simply never been penalized for on field behaviour, other than run of the mill in game penalties. This is the first time he has crossed the line in the eyes of the league.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 11, 2019, 12:52:29 PM
The penalty is/was fair...end of story, if you don't think a 2 game suspension was fair for that hit...well, it is hopeless for you.

It's not "my opinion". Based on past suspensions, the penalty is unjust. No first time offender has ever received such a harsh penalty for a late, concussion causing, head shot.

The reality is, the league is trying to reset the suspension bar. Simoni is merely fighting for the old punishment. The big problem is that the punishment isn't defined or set in stone - Ambrosie gets to dole out whatever he deems fit to the offender (up to CBA maximums).

I think 2 games is a great idea, and I hope it sticks.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 11, 2019, 12:59:27 PM
Multiple RP penalties absolutely does not factor in when it comes to assessing whether or not someone is a first time offender.

Simoni has simply never been penalized for on field behaviour, other than run of the mill in game penalties. This is the first time he has crossed the line in the eyes of the league.

Taking a RP penalty is for on field behaviour.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Horseman on July 11, 2019, 12:59:35 PM
It's not "my opinion". Based on past suspensions, the penalty is unjust. No first time offender has ever received such a harsh penalty for a late, concussion causing, head shot.

The reality is, the league is trying to reset the suspension bar. Simoni is merely fighting for the old punishment. The big problem is that the punishment isn't defined or set in stone - Ambrosie gets to dole out whatever he deems fit to the offender (up to CBA maximums).

I think 2 games is a great idea, and I hope it sticks.

The penalty is unjust????????...Yeah okay, you must be related to SL as no one else feels the suspension in unjust.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue_or_die on July 11, 2019, 01:02:22 PM
Multiple RP penalties absolutely does not factor in when it comes to assessing whether or not someone is a first time offender.

Simoni has simply never been penalized for on field behaviour, other than run of the mill in game penalties. This is the first time he has crossed the line in the eyes of the league.

You don't think the process looks at the number of "dirty" things like RTP, UR, etc when assessing these situations? You're technically correct that he is by definition as first time offender, but that doesn't mean his history ought not to be considered even if they were just major fouls. I ask this question seriously because I'm not actually sure if they do look at penalty history. Maybe they don't, and that's what you're going on?


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 11, 2019, 01:52:34 PM
Taking a RP penalty is for on field behaviour.

It's not behaviour that has ever resulted in him being fined or suspended. It's therefore not considered. He is, in the eyes of the rule book, a clean player.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 11, 2019, 02:03:15 PM
It's not behaviour that has ever resulted in him being fined or suspended. It's therefore not considered. He is, in the eyes of the rule book, a clean player.

That's not close to correct. Players taking a RP penalty are often fined. Hardrick was fined this week for a RP penalty he took for a 2 hand shot to the head the resulted in Adams TD being called back.

He was not disqualified or suspended. Fined only. Hardrick is not a dirty player but it was a stupid decision. Why he did that is between him, the league and his coaches.

Lawrence Dean ( Hamilton ) was also fined for a high hit. Not sure if he took a RP during the game.

Every game is reviewed by the league. Players may be fined after the fact and / or because of a given penalty.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on July 11, 2019, 02:44:26 PM
I don't think a player's penalty should be dependent on the outcome of the action (whether the player was hurt or not hurt), but on the action itself, and what damage it could potentially cause, and whether it was avoidable, premeditated or just a football play. 

SL did not need to try to remove Collaros' head, he had ample opportunity to avoid the hit, and it was *not* a "football play".  I wouldn't say there was "intent to injure", but there was no intent not to deliver a significant blow.  His hit was premeditated.  Regardless Collaros getting knocked into next week... the hit was dangerous, unnecessary and not a part of the game.  The 2 game suspension, while without precedent, should set precedent.  Every player was put on notice that this type of action would no longer be tolerated, and that there would be consequences.

History shouldn't be part of the initial penalty, but it should definitely be part of arbitration.  Additional penalties should be assessed to repeat offenders, in addition to the penalty for the action.

2 games is a pittance, and will set a precedent for future actions.  Rolling it back to 1 game would also set a dangerous precedent, in that the league will see this result, and potentially in the future assess a 1 game penalty instead of a 2 game to start with.  Which will then be appealed... you see where this is going...

I think there should be a potential of both outcomes when you appeal, either a reduction, or an increase.  And during an appeal, past actions should be taken into account, allowing for past action to incur additional action...  giving players an incentive to not appeal if they are demonstrably a bad actor...  yet allowing those players given a truly unjust penalty who have no history to actually use an appeal for what it is for, not just a way to preserve pay.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: jeremy q public on July 11, 2019, 02:50:57 PM
I don't tink a player's penalty should be dependent on the outcome of the action (whether the player was hurt or not hurt), but on the action itself, and what damage it could potentially cause, and whether it was avoidable, premeditated or just a football play. 

This. I've never understood why some leagues (NHL in particular) seem to think that the injury result of an illegal action should influence the penalty, when it comes to player safety. You're just incentivizing players to play aggressively and take the risk that the other player is ok. If you really want to eliminate risky plays, you penalize the action itself. It's very simple.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: dd on July 11, 2019, 02:51:41 PM
Hardrick took an unneccesary roughness penalty not rough play. Rough play is when someone is punched or kicked or there is a calculated play to hurt someone and results in an automatic game ejection. Big difference


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 11, 2019, 03:20:56 PM
That's not close to correct. Players taking a RP penalty are often fined. Hardrick was fined this week for a RP penalty he took for a 2 hand shot to the head the resulted in Adams TD being called back.

He was not disqualified or suspended. Fined only. Hardrick is not a dirty player but it was a stupid decision. Why he did that is between him, the league and his coaches.

Lawrence Dean ( Hamilton ) was also fined for a high hit. Not sure if he took a RP during the game.

Every game is reviewed by the league. Players may be fined after the fact and / or because of a given penalty.

If Simoni is the on field scum bag you are suggesting he is, why is it that Simoni has never been fined for on field behaviour?

Sure he's taken a bunch of those penalties in his career... according to you... (just sayin you haven't provided examples), but he's never taken one the league then fined him for.

Excluding the hit currently being discussed here, Hardrick is a "dirtier" player than Lawrence according to the rules of player safety. Are those rules perfect? Heck no, but it is how they are.

Simoni has a clean record (soon to be no longer, of course).


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 11, 2019, 03:42:55 PM
Hardrick took an unneccesary roughness penalty not rough play. Rough play is when someone is punched or kicked or there is a calculated play to hurt someone and results in an automatic game ejection. Big difference

Not true. Lawrence wasn't ejected for his hit on Collaros. The penalty was the 1st time we've seen the new rule increasing the penalty to a 25 yarder with out an ejection.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 11, 2019, 03:56:23 PM
If Simoni is the on field scum bag you are suggesting he is, why is it that Simoni has never been fined for on field behaviour?

Sure he's taken a bunch of those penalties in his career... according to you... (just sayin you haven't provided examples), but he's never taken one the league then fined him for.

Excluding the hit currently being discussed here, Hardrick is a "dirtier" player than Lawrence according to the rules of player safety. Are those rules perfect? Heck no, but it is how they are.

Simoni has a clean record (soon to be no longer, of course).

August 21 2018. Lawrence was fined $500 twice for dress code violations. Obviously not a rough play fine but a fine for " on field ".

August 3, 2015. Lawrence fined $750 for a low hit on Henry Burris and comments made afterwards. Showed no remorse. Whether the fine was more about the hit, the comments on social media or split between both, it was the result of the on field action.

Found that in about 30 seconds on google. So two different QB's he " took out with cheap shots.

Need more. Feel free to look further. IMO he falls into a dirty player category.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 11, 2019, 05:28:10 PM
August 21 2018. Lawrence was fined $500 twice for dress code violations. Obviously not a rough play fine but a fine for " on field ".

August 3, 2015. Lawrence fined $750 for a low hit on Henry Burris and comments made afterwards. Showed no remorse. Whether the fine was more about the hit, the comments on social media or split between both, it was the result of the on field action.

Found that in about 30 seconds on google. So two different QB's he " took out with cheap shots.

Need more. Feel free to look further. IMO he falls into a dirty player category.

You're grasping at straws, and Sorry, you'll need to do more internet searching, because I'm not going to look for something that doesn't exist.

First, a dress code violation is not relating to player safety on field conduct. But... you sort of hinted at that.

Second, in 2015 he was not fined for a low hit, he was fined for comments made after the game.

Let me help you out:
Drew Edwards ?@scratchingpost  ? 29m29 minutes ago 
#Ticats LB @Simoni_Lawrence he?s been fined $750 by the #CFL for his post game comments after loss to #Redblacks.


Ok, so he didn't wear his socks properly and acted like a jerk when he was mad after a game. Those two things don't make him a dirty player.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 11, 2019, 05:37:51 PM
You're grasping at straws, and Sorry, you'll need to do more internet searching, because I'm not going to look for something that doesn't exist.

First, a dress code violation is not relating to player safety on field conduct. But... you sort of hinted at that.

Second, in 2015 he was not fined for a low hit, he was fined for comments made after the game.

Let me help you out:
Drew Edwards ?@scratchingpost  ? 29m29 minutes ago 
#Ticats LB @Simoni_Lawrence he?s been fined $750 by the #CFL for his post game comments after loss to #Redblacks.


Ok, so he didn't wear his socks properly and acted like a jerk when he was mad after a game. Those two things don't make him a dirty player.

The low hit was the on field infraction that precipitated the fine. Like I said  how they split the fine amount between a dirty hit and a social media comment is hard to tell.

It was a dirty hit. Burris said it was a dirty and unnecessary hit.

If you think the hit itself had nothing to do with the fine or the amount of the fine, it's you grasping for straws. In any case it proves he's had more incidents of dirty hits. Which you seem to want to deny.



Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 11, 2019, 06:20:55 PM
The low hit was the on field infraction that precipitated the fine. Like I said  how they split the fine amount between a dirty hit and a social media comment is hard to tell.

It was a dirty hit. Burris said it was a dirty and unnecessary hit.

If you think the hit itself had nothing to do with the fine or the amount of the fine, it's you grasping for straws. In any case it proves he's had more incidents of dirty hits. Which you seem to want to deny.


The CFL literally said "we fined him for his post game comments". It's you who is pretending something else happened.

Maybe we can agree to disagree?

I chose to believe what the CFLs representatives told the media/public. You can chose to believe that while they "said" it was for unacceptable post game comments, it secretly (wink wink) it was about an alleged "dirty" hit that they never publicly addressed or acknowledged.



Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 11, 2019, 07:37:10 PM

The CFL literally said "we fined him for his post game comments". It's you who is pretending something else happened.

Maybe we can agree to disagree?

I chose to believe what the CFLs representatives told the media/public. You can chose to believe that while they "said" it was for unacceptable post game comments, it secretly (wink wink) it was about an alleged "dirty" hit that they never publicly addressed or acknowledged.



You won't seem to agree that he's had at least one other dirty hit. Whether they fined him for post game comments ONLY is debatable. On that I suppose we can agree to disagree.

I don't expect the league to say we fined him $250 for his post game comments, $250 for his dirty hit and $250 because his socks were rolled down.

Hardrick only got fined $500 for a two hand head shot to a player on the ground. You really think a social media comment in 2015 was worth $750 in comparison 2015 dollars to 2019 dollars. A reasonable person would say some or possibly even most of his fine was due to the hit.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 66 Chevelle on July 11, 2019, 07:57:09 PM
maybe if it can't be agreed upon whether or not Lawrence is a first time offender or not, or that there is a precedent for this severe of punishment for a first time offending player, I think we can agree on the fact that the league, commish in particular, is wanting to send a message and set the stage for others in the future...

while within his rights to appeal, all one needs to do is watch the actual play again to believe that this punishment is just and appropriate... after all, it was obvious that his hit had nothing to do with his concern about stopping forward progress...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: bowlerdude on July 11, 2019, 08:24:51 PM
The penalty is unjust????????...Yeah okay, you must be related to SL as no one else feels the suspension in unjust.

You're missing the context though.

It's not really unjust... he deserves the 2 game suspension 100%. I wouldn't have an issue if they took head shots like that even more seriously and they were punishable with more than a 2 game suspension. But... based on every previous suspension issued by the CFL, it is (unfortunately) undeniably unjust. Yeah, Lawrence is kinda known for crossing the line, but he's never been suspended, and players don't get suspended for 2 games without a previous suspension history. It's never happened.

It's not good for the league, and I still think the union gives a look that they care a lot more about suspended players than the ones injured by dirty plays. But it's never happened. So they can say hey, this is unprecedented and this probably wasn't the worst cheap shot in CFL history so you can't give us the worst punishment... and probably win.

The system's a joke, it needs to be changed, and suspensions for acts like that need to be able to stick (ideally, before the suspended player gets to play in several more games)... but as long as they want to appeal... I personally think it's tough to see that happening.

I hope I'm wrong and this suspension sticks and is a new precedent-setter but the ability of the CFL to impose supplemental discipline has been so bad for so long that I won't believe it until I see it...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: dd on July 11, 2019, 08:49:39 PM
Not true. Lawrence wasn't ejected for his hit on Collaros. The penalty was the 1st time we've seen the new rule increasing the penalty to a 25 yarder with out an ejection.
Lawrence didn?t get a rough play call, he got a Grade 2-unnecessary roughness penalty?. The difference is one is an attempt to injure and automatic game ejection was the other is just 25 yard penalty and player remains in the game.

I think Lawrence definitely should have got a RP call and I don?t see why they have a 2 tier UR call, if the dude comes in on a Ab and delivers an obviously avoidable hit to the head, he should have gotten kicked out. To me the 2 tier UR softens the stance on head shots. Just say blatent avoidable head shots are a 25 year RP call and you?re kicked out. Boom you?re done.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: 66 Chevelle on July 11, 2019, 08:53:10 PM
I agree with what you're saying, 100%, however...

given the mitigating circumstances, or actually the lack there of, when you watch that hit, the way he "loads up" to apply a hit to a defenseless player, a player that had already 'given himself up', plus the lateness of the hit... he needs an appropriate punishment irregardless of prior precedent... in my opinion...

now, take the above and couple that with the enactment of rules changes regarding this very thing and the conversation within the league and sport as a whole during the off season? he's lucky it was only 2 games he received...

if you want this type of behavior to stop there needs to be consequences harsh enough to actually deter the behavior... HE CHOSE to be the case study for this action by blatantly trying to hurt a defenseless player with a hit intended to do nothing more than to cause this man harm... there is no defense for the hit he put on him...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TecnoGenius on July 12, 2019, 10:07:08 AM
Second, in 2015 he was not fined for a low hit, he was fined for comments made after the game.

Ask Smilin' Hank if Simoni is a dirty player... he stated so right on the air.  I believe Hank.  We all saw it.  He intended to go after Hank's bum knee the first chance he got.  And he did.  That's what Simoni does.

Everyone knew Collaros' head was jello and one whack would take him out for 6+ games.  Simoni intended to go after the big target the first chance he got.  And he did.  That's what Simoni does.  Heck, Collaros, like Hank, was calling out Simoni on it afterwards.  And Zach isn't normally a raucous player.  I believe Zach.

To be fair to Simoni, in the "old" game of football (i.e. more than a couple of years ago) doing these things was his job!  He was encouraged by everyone and taught how to decapitate QBs.  That was his job!!  Keyword here is WAS.  CFL wants QBs to hang around longer than 3 plays now, so now we have to drill it in the Simonis out there that we can't have this garbage anymore.

Chevelle is right: the main thing here is Zach was giving himself up... for like an hour before Simoni brought the hit.  Even the Burris play wasn't that egregious.  Everyone saw it on TV.  All of Canada collectively held their breath knowing it was likely Zach doesn't get back up.  There absolutely must be new precedent set that this type of crap is not tolerated.

Let's not let the TiCat coaches off the hook either: their DL/LBs are some of the nastiest buggers in the CFL.  They're coached that way.  T.Laurent is probably dirtier than Simoni.  Just ask A.Harris.  They all play a brand of football that we all used to love, but have collectively decided to say goodbye to.  So let's say goodbye to the hits, and to Simoni for two games.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: rubanski on July 12, 2019, 01:47:57 PM
Ask Smilin' Hank if Simoni is a dirty player... he stated so right on the air.  I believe Hank.  We all saw it.  He intended to go after Hank's bum knee the first chance he got.  And he did.  That's what Simoni does.

Everyone knew Collaros' head was jello and one whack would take him out for 6+ games.  Simoni intended to go after the big target the first chance he got.  And he did.  That's what Simoni does.  Heck, Collaros, like Hank, was calling out Simoni on it afterwards.  And Zach isn't normally a raucous player.  I believe Zach.

To be fair to Simoni, in the "old" game of football (i.e. more than a couple of years ago) doing these things was his job!  He was encouraged by everyone and taught how to decapitate QBs.  That was his job!!  Keyword here is WAS.  CFL wants QBs to hang around longer than 3 plays now, so now we have to drill it in the Simonis out there that we can't have this garbage anymore.

Chevelle is right: the main thing here is Zach was giving himself up... for like an hour before Simoni brought the hit.  Even the Burris play wasn't that egregious.  Everyone saw it on TV.  All of Canada collectively held their breath knowing it was likely Zach doesn't get back up.  There absolutely must be new precedent set that this type of crap is not tolerated.

Let's not let the TiCat coaches off the hook either: their DL/LBs are some of the nastiest buggers in the CFL.  They're coached that way.  T.Laurent is probably dirtier than Simoni.  Just ask A.Harris.  They all play a brand of football that we all used to love, but have collectively decided to say goodbye to.  So let's say goodbye to the hits, and to Simoni for two games.


Fair enough thoughts, but keep in mind a couple things.

You're talking about a "different era", not long ago when this stuff was encouraged. Was that 2015 when the Hank incident took place?

Hank is and always has been a cry baby. I'm not saying the 2015 hit wasn't dirty - Just that we should take Hank's "woe is me" comments with a grain of salt.

When he won the Grey Cup in Calgary he went on the most strange post game rant about how everyone in the world said he'd never win a cup and was trash and they're all wrong. I think we all remember his tirade against the TSN panel as a Red Black a couple years ago. Simply because they were suggesting he was getting long in the tooth, and Trevor Harris deserved some starts.

Just a guy that takes everything said or done against him a little too personally.


Here's my Zach rant... stop playing football please. It's Buck Pierce all over again. I hate the hit Collaros took, but most of all I hate that a guy who's brain is jelly already, is going out there again and again. It's not going to stop happening to him.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on July 12, 2019, 02:53:57 PM
Yes, it was a "Different Era", just like today is a different era when it comes to player safety.  There are no measures that should be considered "too much" when it come to protecting players, especially QBs. 

Hitting a vulnerable player in the head with your helmet should be more than a penalty and a suspension, it could be considered attempted murder...  or at least assault with a deadly weapon.  The total lack of actual remorse (sure, he said "Sorry", but did he mean it?  His appeal says "No") just fans the flames.

The league has to uphold the full punishment (or more) and send a message, and the CFLPA should applaud that message.

In case you missed it, here is the video of the hit.  Watch SL's reaction after the hit, the "OMG, you gonna throw a flag on that?" hands in the air reaction...

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=454675895307942 (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=454675895307942)


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 15, 2019, 04:19:18 PM
Still waiting for some sort of announcement.  Another delay wouldn't be good PR. Aside from this situation there needs to be a change in the process to expedite this in a reasonable time frame.

I see the Ticats have the bye this week. Regardless the decision should have been made and announced this morning as far as I'm concerned.

They've played FOUR games since the incident at this point.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Pigskin on July 15, 2019, 04:26:27 PM
Yes, this is a little crazy. This was a one day decision.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: GOLDMEMBER on July 15, 2019, 07:59:41 PM
Yes, this is a little crazy. This was a one day decision.
it?s brutal still no decision


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: M.O.A.B. on July 15, 2019, 08:04:57 PM
hope it happen next week  :D


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 15, 2019, 11:04:39 PM
Yes, this is a little crazy. This was a one day decision.

They sent it to an arbitrator, he charges by the hour....could take weeks!


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: DM83 on July 16, 2019, 05:08:12 AM
Kind of a joke it has taken this long


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: The Zipp on July 16, 2019, 03:10:48 PM
From twitter:

Being told the arbitrator's decision regarding Simoni Lawrence's suspension appeal is expected to come down today around noon


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: The Zipp on July 16, 2019, 03:12:39 PM
And it's here:

Simoni Lawrence 2 game suspension upheld. @CFLonTSN @TSN_Sports



Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Jesse on July 16, 2019, 03:18:56 PM
And it's here:

Simoni Lawrence 2 game suspension upheld. @CFLonTSN @TSN_Sports



Woot woot.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: ModAdmin on July 16, 2019, 03:20:31 PM
Darrin Bauming
‏ @DarrinBauming
7m7 minutes ago

Darrin Bauming Retweeted Farhan Lalji

(Lawrence) will miss a game against the #Bombers on July 26.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: BlueInCgy on July 16, 2019, 03:22:18 PM
And it's here:

Simoni Lawrence 2 game suspension upheld. @CFLonTSN @TSN_Sports




Ho lee krap.  Did not expect that to actually be the end result.  Precedent setting.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 16, 2019, 03:23:50 PM
Finally some teeth in the decision making.

On the flip side have we heard anything new about Collaros? He's missed 3 games since going on the 6 game IR.

Realistically I don't see him coming off early based on his past injuries. OTOH I'm not sure he comes off at all in 2019.

His long term health are progressively at risk if he continues playing. There are things more important than playing football.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TrueBlue75 on July 16, 2019, 03:26:23 PM
Great news, but as others have said, this should have been decided way sooner. It?s nice to know Nichols won?t be headhunted when we play them in a couple of weeks!


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Blue In BC on July 16, 2019, 03:40:21 PM
Great news, but as others have said, this should have been decided way sooner. It?s nice to know Nichols won?t be headhunted when we play them in a couple of weeks!

TiCats have taken an inordinate amount of RP penalties. Many were for late or high hits to QB's. So our OL better be playing well.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TBURGESS on July 16, 2019, 03:57:52 PM
Good news that he's getting 2 games. Bad news that it took so long.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue_or_die on July 16, 2019, 04:21:49 PM
JUSTICE!


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Donny C on July 16, 2019, 05:39:14 PM
JUSTICE!

That's my son's name.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: Darwinismyhomeboy on July 16, 2019, 05:42:06 PM
Well this is probably good timing and intentional that it took this long.  Now he's not playing game 2 against Saskatchewan.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: bowlerdude on July 16, 2019, 05:43:30 PM
Pleasantly surprised to see the 2 games is going to stand.

Ideally, next time, we'll learn that in less than a month but hey, it's a start...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue girl on July 16, 2019, 07:16:47 PM
Great news. Now the precedent has been set. The only bad thing is that it took so long.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: DM83 on July 16, 2019, 08:31:53 PM
Lawremce comes across in TV interviews as an idiot.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: theaardvark on July 16, 2019, 10:06:57 PM
So, he misses WPG and SSK... instead of MTL and TOR (average margin of victory, 40.5 points).  He really jobbed his team, there...

Niiiice...


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: dd on July 17, 2019, 03:26:30 AM
Lawremce comes across in TV interviews as an idiot.
Because he is!!


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TecnoGenius on July 17, 2019, 05:50:49 AM
Finally some teeth in the decision making.

On the flip side have we heard anything new about Collaros? He's missed 3 games since going on the 6 game IR.

Great news, and I had a hunch it would end up this way.  How can you watch that video and not uphold it?

CFL sends a message.  Finally.

As for Collaros, he'll be out longer, I suspect.  Didn't he stay on 6-game IR at the end of last year and continue on it for 1-3 more games including the WSF?  The dude's head needs a ton of time to recover, and it increases with every hit.  He'll be lucky to be in by game 9.  Then he'll be so rusty, it won't even be worth it.  Might as well stick with Fajardo, or bring in some other experienced guy (trade for Franklin or Jennings?).

Glenn sure picked the wrong year to retire.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: TBURGESS on July 17, 2019, 01:11:29 PM
So, he misses WPG and SSK... instead of MTL and TOR (average margin of victory, 40.5 points).  He really jobbed his team, there...

Niiiice...
Or he misses two western games no 4 pointers.


Title: Re: Lawrence suspended...
Post by: blue_gold_84 on July 17, 2019, 02:41:11 PM
Glenn sure picked the wrong year to retire.

Why, so he could play for a dumpster fire? I'd say he made the right call.

CFL made the right call in upholding the 2-game suspension to Lawrence, too.